Possession

[jambo372]

Has anyone ever heard this story :

A teenaged boy named Robbie Manhelm was experimenting along with his aunt ( a medium ) with a ouija board . Shortly afterwards robbie's aunt died . He continued using the ouija board to try to communicate with his deceased aunt . Gradually weird things started to happen . Scratching noises would occur in the house at first & he just began acting generally weird & out of character . Then he began to scream & swear . He developed strange psychokinetic abilities & poltergeist activity would occur around him . Marks would appear on his skin which spelled out the words spite & hell . His doctors couldn't explain what was going on . He was taken to a minister who told his parents to take him to a catholic exorcist . Strange phenomena occured in the priest's office when Robbie entered , the telephone began moving about violently on it's own . Eventually an exorcism was done & Robbie was back to normal in about 3 months .

This story was william Peter Blatty's inspiration for the novel & film " THE EXORCIST " . There was also a film made about it called " POSSESSED " .

This is a true story .

[Kilted_Canuck]

Proof?

[Jeff Corey]

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by jambo372

This is a true story . [/b]

No it isn't.

[Rob Lister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
No it isn't.

What Jeff said.

[Soapy Sam]

Jambo- The way it works at this board is that you don't just post a story like this. You post evidence to back it up. Proof.
Failing which you may expect to be ignored or scoffed at.

Such evidence would include links to actual investigation of the incidents; Police reports if any, details like whether the people involved had psychiatric histories, any inconsistencies or gaps in the data, alternate explanations. (11 year olds have been known to confabulate- especially if it gets them attention).

If Mr. Mannhelm could prove any of this stuff, he would be a very wealthy fellow. As will you if you can come up with proof.

Be aware that when you simply state an improbable tale like this, then follow it with a flat , unquestioning acceptance of it's veracity, you lose credibility with most people here. This will make it even less likely that they will take you seriously next time.

[Hand Bent Spoon]

But surely if the dead can communicate with the living, then they would do so via a Parker Brothers parlor game? Any other method would be rediculous! Although, if they were in to irony, then they might communicate using the game Life...

[JPK]

jambo372,

Do you actually beleive all of these posts that you put up here? You seem to beleive in everything that goes bump in the night. Everything from PK, to talking to the dead to preminitions, ectoplasm materializations, and now posession? I know it is of no use to you since you want and need to beleive in all this tomfoolery, but you might look here for some answers to this exorsism crap.
http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/exorcist.html

Quote:

As for historical accuracy, Cuneo characterizes Blatty’s work as a massive structure of fantasy resting on a flimsy foundation of a priest’s diary account of the Mount Rainier case. The Exorcist story gets less and less impressive the farther away it gets from the film that made it famous. As is often the case, sensationalism, hyperbole, and myths replace fact and reality when it comes to making a good story.

I am really suprised you didn't buy that bridge offered to you in another thread, or at least make an offer.

JPK

[Azrael 5]

This is a true story


A boy named Duke Flywater lived with his Aunt.She died,he began talking to machines(two in particular)and joined the airforce to fight the soldiers who had killed her,along with his sister.He eventually found out his Dad(whom he'd never known)was the Commander of these soldiers,although he had breathing difficulties.

The story was the inspiration for George Lucas's Star Wars.
Its not a true story!

[jambo372]

See this link :

http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/.../exorcism.html

[Dragon]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
See this link :

http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/.../exorcism.html

Jambo, this is a piece, written by the "Assistant Lifestyle Editor" of a student newspaper, about a book about exorcism.

Apparently you haven't quite got the hang of this "evidence" thing yet.

[jambo372]

Soapy Sam
What good would police reports be ?

A ) It had nothing at all to do with the police
B ) Even if it did - police can be very easily fooled - You just have to look at the state of the justice system - innocent people are jailed all too often whilst murderers & rapists lurk all over the place , ie stopping people just for taking cannabis when people like Huntley run riot . Police are also well known for hiring psychics as investigators - ( now I do believe in lots of psychics ) , but why would a skeptic like yourself want information from people who place faith in psychics to help solve crimes ?

Secondly , psychiatric history has nothing to do with it at all . Medical & psychiatric explanations were ruled out - the exorcism was a last resort . Another example , Nina Kulagina , probably the most powerful psychokinetic in modern history had a history of nervous breakdown - she still defied every skeptic she crossed . I also know a medium who had a nervous breakdown .

Thirdly about the money - I don't see how I could become rich if I proved the Mannhelm story to be true - it had nothing to do with me . It would be easy enough to explain why he didn't get rich - you wouldn't blab to everyone about being possessed by demons and requiring an exorcism . He probably wouldn't even want to remember what happened - it would have been horrifying - talking about it might bring it all back to him . If you're suggesting he takes the $ 1,000,000 challenge - it all happened about 60 years ago - long before the challenge was introduced & even if there was a challenge - they would have been too busy trying to exorcise demons rather than worry about stuff like that .

[Operaider]

Jambo ,

In your post you are assuming allot that is not said in that article.

Quote:

What good would police reports be ?

The child was obviously in danger. Whether from himself or possibly others. The police would be able to recognize if a crime had been committed. Such as munchhousen by proxy. It wouldn't be the first time a child was harmed to get attention for the parents. I'm not saying that this is what happened. I think the only crime committed was neglecting a child in trouble in favor of entertaining the parents superstitions.

Quote:

Secondly , psychiatric history has nothing to do with it at all . Medical & psychiatric explanations were ruled out - the exorcism was a last resort .

Really? I don't see anything in the article that states that medical or psychiatric help was ever tried. Plus, a case such as that would be all over the papers if doctors and psychiatrists couldn’t find an explanation. I've yet to see an article like that.

I find it much more likely that the family refused to accept a medical explanation because it conflicted with the religious explanation they had already come to. I would expect years of searching for a cure before a rational person would conclude that it was occult.

If we are to believe the article, they jump to blaming things on the occult pretty easily:

Quote:

Soon after, she died. A few nights after her death, the family started to notice strange sounds, first a dripping, and then a scratching sound under the floorboards.
The family was convinced that it was the dead aunt attempting to contact them. They spoke to her, and asked for a sign. A wave of pressure was sent into the members of the family and then into the floor.

dripping and scratching noises? Must be a my dead Aunt! What kind of rational is that? As for the last line. Has anyone heard of a breeze, or does it always have to be ghosts?

Quote:

you wouldn't blab to everyone about being possessed by demons and requiring an exorcism . He probably wouldn't even want to remember what happened - it would have been horrifying - talking about it might bring it all back to him .

True, it's a good thing he kept his mouth shut. Otherwise there would be books, and movies, and urban legends told at Halloween, and ... wait, how are we talking this when they kept it so hush hush?

Lastly, Jambo, you seem to skipped over the first sentence altogether,

Quote:

There is a story that usually gets mentioned around Halloween in St. Louis. Like many tales, it is blown up and out of proportion, and the details are shaky at best.

Well, I'm convinced. How could this be anything but a true story?

[Soapy Sam]

Jambo said-
"A ) It had nothing at all to do with the police
B ) Even if it did - police can be very easily fooled "

Agreed, agreed. I mentioned police reports simply as one type of evidence, not to imply they would have the whole truth.
They do tend to have reasonably precise times, records of events and witnesses, statements of people at the time. Often after the event, stories change- not through lying but through misremembering or one person convincing another of his version.

Any objective record , written down at the time, is useful in getting to the truth of an often confused situation.

The point is that anyone can tell a good yarn. He might have a source for it, or he might make it up. So long as we all know it's a yarn, that's fine, so long as it's a good yarn. But if we expect to convince people that an unlikely yarn is true , we must muster all supporting evidence and be able to counter criticism of it with reasoned responses.
Ask yourself honestly- did you do that?

[Operaider]

Keep in mind he starts off his article saying his evidence is shakey. How many similar articles do you think exist that neglect to mention the lack supporting evidence?

[jambo372]

Operaider
If his parents were abusing him - it would still have nothing to do with the police - it would be the social that would deal with that stuff . secondly how could a medical condition be responsible for the telekinesis & words on his back ? Some of the details were EXAGERRATED not completely made up . I don't think a hoax would become so famous without anything to back it up . You can't demand an exorcism - Exorcists only give exorcisms to people when rational explanations have been dismissed because giving an exorcism to someone who is mentally ill as opposed to possessed can make matters worse by increasing the trauma .

[chrisberez]

CSICOP has a piece on this that just came out the other week. It can be found here. Here's just a taste:

Quote:

Investigative journalist Mark Opsasnick investigated the case and concluded that the Mount Rainier story, as popularly held (and which Blatty used as a basis for the novel), could not be true. For one thing, the family that occupied the home at the time the alleged possession took place did not have a boy there, demon-possessed or otherwise: the occupants were childless. Long-time neighbors denied that anything horrific or supernatural had ever occurred there. There was, however, an actual exorcism done (not in Mount Rainier but in Garden City, Maryland), though virtually all of the gory and sensational details were embellished or made up. Simple spitting became Technicolor, projectile vomiting; (normal) shaking of a bed became thunderous quaking and levitation; the boy’s low growl became a gravelly, Satanic voice. And so on. Those interested in the full details can find them in articles by Opsasnick. One is “The Haunted Boy,” published in Fortean Times, Number 123, page 34; another is in Strange Magazine, 1998, Number 20. The piece is also available online at www.strangemag.com.

[Ashles]

Quote:

I don't think a hoax would become so famous without anything to back it up .

Thus:
There is an alien craft in Arizona.
We didn't land on the moon.
An alien autopsy has been carried out and shown by Fox.
Crop circles are created by aliens (perhaps they are instructions from the aliens on how to use the crashed alien ship to reach the moon...)
Mermaid bodies have been found.
Bigfoot walks around free. The Loch Ness Monster swims around free.
Santa is real.

Jambo, just because a hoax is famous does not mean it has a SINGLE SHRED of proof.

You seem to think you are talking to your friends in the pub and we are all going to go "Ooh, spooky" when you tell a story.
But without proof most of the people here are going to consider your stories as just that - stories. No more real than if you told us about a boy who could do magic and went to a wizard school called Hogwarts.

People who like these stories and want to believe in them sort of try to ignore the lack of evidence. But to be taken seriously, this is what is required.

[chrisberez]

Nicely put, Ashles. A lot of people seem to think that just because numerous other people believe something, that automatically makes it right. I would add to your exellent list, that if group mentality served as truth, then those people killed in Salem must have really been witches.

People can be wrong, whether alone or in groups. Something doesn't gain credibility on numbers alone. The burdon of proof still applies.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Well, I think the evidence here is overwhelming....

See picture of Robbie Manhelm's possession below:

[Vikram]

I think the saddest thing here is that when I started reading this thread, I thought jambo372 was being farcical.

Ah well...

[Operaider]

It's sometimes hard to tell the difference between a true believer and a sarcastic skeptic

[JMEJAM]

Quote:

secondly how could a medical condition be responsible for the telekinesis & words on his back ?

I suggest you look up the word "dermagraphia" or "dermographia" in a medical encyclopedia.

Jeff

[Dr Adequate]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
Eventually an exorcism was done & Robbie was back to normal in about 3 months .

Well, I'm impressed. An exorcism is done, and THREE MONTHS LATER the kid gets better. Definitely a case of demon posession. I bet it happened five months and eleven days after a black cat crossed his path, as well. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a dodgy argument at the best of times, but you're not usually meant to have to wait "about three months" to use it.

[Ed]

Quote:

Possessed
Timothy Dalton, Henry Czerny, Jonathan Malen, Michael Rhoades, Shannon Lawson, Christipher Plummer, Piper Laurie. Showtime. W-Michael Lazarou, Steven E. de Souza. D- Steven E. de Souza. 110 min.

"Possessed," based on the true story of the only documented exorcism performed by the Catholic church in modern-day America, premieres Sunday, 10/22/00 at 8 PM (ET/PT) on Showtime.

After the death of his Aunt Hanna (Piper Laurie), several inexplicable and frightening events take place around Robbie Mannheim (Jonathan Malen) – including screaming obscenities in a voice different from his own and summoning the power to thrust furniture at those who bully him at school. His parents turn to science and medicine to try and help Robbie but to no avail. In desperation, they call on Father William Bowdern (Timothy Dalton), a professor at the Jesuit-run St. Louis University.

After listening to the Mannheim family’s plea for help, Bowdern agrees to put his own troubles aside and try to help. He decides to perform an exorcism even though his own mental stability may be at risk.

Does this sound familiar? I’m surprised the producers didn’t get Linda Blair to do a cameo. Based on a true story, the film is nearly a duplicate of the superior "The Exorcist." Here, the child is a boy, but we have the same story structure, including a priest struggling with his own faith and a household of nonbelievers. There is a scene depicting the child playing with an Ouija board, just as Linda Blair’s character did in "The Exorcist." There’s even a duplicate shot of a priest walking up to the front door, as we saw in the poster of "The Exorcist."

http://www.moviereporter.com/reviews/possessed.html

Ho-hum

[jambo372]

The words on his back appeared instantly under observation ruling out dermagraphia .

[Ashles]

Quote:

The words on his back appeared instantly under observation ruling out dermagraphia .

Jambo this is called anecdotal evidence. You can't say this in the factual way you do without some form of evidence.

Photos, video etc.

Otherwise it is only a story you have heard.



I was actually thinking about you today jambo as I remembered things I had seen and experienced when I was younger. I was a big proponent of mysterious things and had a million and one facts to throw at people. I knew all about the Siberian blast and Borley Rectory and Project Blue Book etc. I read everything I could. I still have most of the books.
I had experiences that couldn't be explained and I loved telling people about them - they got excited and told me stories of their own. Iwanted to believe.
Only later on, I realised my experiences COULD be explained. These experiences become dull and trivial all of a sudden and we don't like that feeling.
For a while I had psychic ability, and wanting that ability I ignored all the evidence against it.

Why do we want so badly to believe in these things when they have never proven to be of any actual value in our life, or of any help?

Jambo you want to believe, but you have no evidence to support your belief other than stories told or silly-season articles that the media produces that are then subsequently forgotten about. Remember Natasha Demkina? Whatever happened to her?
You want to believe.
So did I. But it all turned out to be smoke and mirrors.

And while people continue to make paranormal claims about half-forgotten people whilst at the same time they don't bother spending their time learning about the incredible detail of the scientific world and what it ACTUALLY HAS given to the world then I will continue to post here, and also argue with friends and relatives.

Science takes some work to understand, but that is infinitely preferable to blindly trusting in alternative theories that don't ever turn out to help us as people.

Rant over.

[T'ai Chi]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372
Strange phenomena occured in the priest's office when Robbie entered ,

I think we've all read and heard about these "phenomena" that occur in a priest's office...

[gman]

GOD gave us a choice and wanted us to have faith. If there was such a thing as proof, then we wouldn’t need to rely on faith. Would we? I’m sure there is a little demon in all of us but if GOD made it so we knew for sure there was a hell, then on the flip side, we would know there was a heaven. That would take away our choice, wouldn’t it? …. Just a thought!

[Operaider]

Have you met 1 in Christ yet?

1 in Christ's illogic

He's debating the same thing. He believes logic and reason are the devils tools. Sounds like I'm joking or making fun of him, but I'm not. He honestly believes it.

<---- me, burning in hell. The sin? Using my brain.

[steenkh]

Quote:

Originally posted by gman
GOD gave us a choice and wanted us to have faith.

Well, here we tend to demand proof, nevertheless. This GOD-character may be fine for people who are adept at ignoring facts and want to fit the world into a small mindset called religion.

Anyway, your reasoning would not mean much to a hindu or buddhist. If you really think that proof of extraordinary events is unnecessary, you might fell more at home on a website run by people who have the same mindset.

Your fellow believer 1inchrist actually thinks that logic and reason is created by another character called Satan to further his fail-safe plan. Whatever this plan might be, I do not know, but Satan would be welcome have a discussion here.

[sackett]

Quote:

Originally posted by steenkh
. . . If you really think that proof of extraordinary events is unnecessary, you might fell more at home on a website run by people who have the same mindset. . . . Satan would be welcome have a discussion here.

I see a contradiction in this: you hint that the religious should perhaps try another shop, and yet if Beezebub Himself came on line, he'd be welcome.

I say let the believers flock here all they want, and let them strew their mess up, down, and sidewise. A few may actually learn a thing or two, and the rest of them are great good fun to abuse. You couldn't play soccer without a football, right?

[uruk]

I never understood the logic behind Demonic possesion.
If satan is after souls why is he scaring the bejeezus out of people? That seems to be counter-intutive to his goal.
If I were satan (and I assure you, I am not) I would lure people into believing that if you follow me ; when you die you would achieve everlasting life and happiness and ...oops! Perhaps I've said too much!

[steenkh]

Quote:

Originally posted by sackett
I see a contradiction in this: you hint that the religious should perhaps try another shop, and yet if Beezebub Himself came on line, he'd be welcome.

Let me make this clear: Both Satan and gman are welcome here! I just thought that gman would feel more comfortable elsewhere. His beliefs could well cause him grief if he hangs around.

[T'ai Chi]

Quote:

Originally posted by jambo372

He continued using the ouija board to try to communicate with his deceased aunt . Gradually weird things started to happen . Scratching noises would occur in the house at first & he just began acting generally weird & out of character . Then he began to scream & swear . He developed strange psychokinetic abilities & poltergeist activity would occur around him .

Parker Brother's must have some special link to the spirit world..

[Ashles]

Quote:

Parker Brother's must have some special link to the spirit world..

I didn't have an actual Ouija board to try this with so I had to improvise.

You may mock, but I had some real success.

The spirits said that my hat would visit Mayfair, then Piccadilly, then The Water Works.

Spooky eh?

[gman]

Quote:

Originally posted by steenkh
His beliefs could well cause him grief if he hangs around.

Please explain. I thought this was a forum to discuss thoughts and ideas.


My beliefs won’t cause me any grief. Sorry to say but people who don’t believe, are the ones you should feel for.

Reality Check!
It’s quite simple…If there were demonic possession, and I have to agree with uruk on this, why would the fallen angle try to scare people...I think not!

[Phrost]

Quote:

Originally posted by gman
Reality Check!
It’s quite simple…If there were demonic possession, and I have to agree with uruk on this, why would the fallen angle try to scare people...I think not!

Man, a fallen angle would scare the heck out of my Geometry teacher, that's for sure.

[EdipisReks]

man, i could SO possess a steak right now.

[steenkh]

Quote:

Originally posted by gman
Please explain. I thought this was a forum to discuss thoughts and ideas.


My beliefs won’t cause me any grief. Sorry to say but people who don’t believe, are the ones you should feel for.

It is a forum to discuss thoughts and ideas, and you are welcome here. I only warned you because I know that people who have strong beliefs feel uncomfortable when these beliefs are put under stress.

It seems that we can mutually feel sorry for each other. Contrary to what believers think, there is no void when the religion has gone. I have been very religious when I was a child, but gradually, as I tried to reconcile religious teachings with what I could understand of the real world, I came to see religion as just words, and by the time I was 17, my belief had just fizzled out. There was no big revelation or exhilarating experience. I felt just the same as before.

Actually, I am not trying to convert you or anybody else, so I will not start a religion-bashing thread. But I do discuss the specific issues, like in this case "possesion".

[Ashles]

Quote:

Sorry to say but people who don’t believe, are the ones you should feel for.

As steen says, this, of course works both ways. A lot of people here feel sorry for believers and their inability or refusal to face reality. But we try to avoid geting into those sorts of debates because they don't lead anywhere interesting.
Vague dismissive statements about groups of people will only really start an argument in which neither side will be 'correct' or 'win' as it will be entirely about personal beliefs.

If you want to discuss thoughts and ideas then that will be far more welcome.