End of Fox Hunting in the UK

[merphie]

Interetsing to note the end of Fox Hunting in the UK. I have read the news, but I am curious to the the opinions of people in the UK.

Comments?

[thaiboxerken]

I always thought of hunting animal for sport as just a silly waste of resources.

[Tmy]

Will you still feel that way when the foxes take over and enslave mankind!!!?

DAMN YOU, YOU BLEW IT UP DAMMMMMMMMN YOOOOOOOU!!

(apoligies to Chuck Heston)

A few years ago Mass. banned all these kinds of animal traps. Now we have Coyotes, skunks, and Racoons running all over the burbs n cities. Many a toy poodle have disapeared.

Kidding aside, the coyotes have gotten very bold. Only a matter of time till they take out a toddler.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Kidding aside, the coyotes have gotten very bold. Only a matter of time till they take out a toddler.

In Massachusetts? That means the loss of a probable future Democrat.

So tell me what the down side is.

[Tmy]

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
In Massachusetts? That means the loss of a probable future Democrat.

So tell me what the down side is.

Well there most active in the burbs so chances are theyd swipe a republican.

Plus republicans tend to be more plump and delicious. Democrats are too gamey/

[thaiboxerken]

Hunting and trapping to keep down animal population is reasonable. Hmm.. perhaps we can apply this philosophy to republicans as well.

[Shane Costello]

Quote:

Originally posted by merphie:
Interetsing to note the end of Fox Hunting in the UK. I have read the news, but I am curious to the the opinions of people in the UK.

Comments?

You can still assume strange garb, get up on a horse, blow on a bugle, release some hounds and chase after a fox in Ireland, and I don't see that changing for some time, if ever.

[Darat]

The recent vote was not (as far as I am aware) about all fox hunting but specifically fox hunting with dogs.

A gamekeeper can still take his gun out and shoot foxes, they can still be trapped, gassed and so on. The ban stops a pack of dogs, with a group of horse-people following, to chase a fox through countryside until they catch it and kill it.

[merphie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
A few years ago Mass. banned all these kinds of animal traps. Now we have Coyotes, skunks, and Racoons running all over the burbs n cities. Many a toy poodle have disapeared.

Kidding aside, the coyotes have gotten very bold. Only a matter of time till they take out a toddler.

I saw some stories similar to the mountain lion in the Rockies.

[merphie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
The recent vote was not (as far as I am aware) about all fox hunting but specifically fox hunting with dogs.

A gamekeeper can still take his gun out and shoot foxes, they can still be trapped, gassed and so on. The ban stops a pack of dogs, with a group of horse-people following, to chase a fox through countryside until they catch it and kill it.

Maybe I misunderstood the article. IT seemed like they were banning everything and were thinking about banning hunting dogs next.

[Sandy M]

but I am not a member of a recognized hunt. I was a "guest" of a California-based hunt club several times. The norm in the U.S., frankly, is to NOT kill the fox (assuming that you run it to ground); many US hunts are also "drag" hunts (no, neither riders nor the foxes wear dresses! ) where a scent line is dragged an hour or two before the hunt begins and the hounds follow the drag line. That's here in the US and on the West Coast. In Colorado and other western states, I understand they chase coyotes and rarely if ever "catch" them. While a true hunt aficionado is supposed to appreciate the "work of the hounds," etc., the truth is that galloping a horse across-country and over fences is what they really enjoy. The one time I rode with a "live" hunt - we galloped and jumped for hours and never even SAW the &*(# fox. The Huntsman later told me that in the last five years or longer, they had never dug out a fox that had gone to ground and killed it.

However, in England (and Ireland and Scotland and Wales), most of the farm folks ride WITH the hunts, if they choose, and support the hunters. As someone as noted, they are regarded there as vermin, and if they are not hunted w/hounds and on horseback, they will be shot or poisoned (which puts other wildlife at risk). While admittedly the anecdotes are presented by those who supporting hunting, many will tell of particularly wiley foxes that will "toy" with the hounds and hunters before "vanishing."

The British particularly hold forth the argument that IF hunting with hounds is outlawed, the necessity will arise to dispose of hundreds, if not thousands, of hounds, which if raised as hunting dogs are generally not suitable as household pets. Sounds like fulfilling a PETA goal: to get RID of dogs that have any relationship with man, not protect them.

A friend in England sends me copies of Horse & Hound and other British "sporting" magazines, and the editorials in those publications tend to support the view that it is not a genuine concern about animal rights or animal welfare, but class warfare, since those hunting are generally viewed as the elite, despite the fact that there are everyday working people and farmers among the hunters.


Personally, since the galloping and jumping would be MY enjoyment, every hunt could be a drag hunt as far as I am concerned, but apparently the Brits have sincere issues about controlling foxes and maintaining the fox hunting tradition (and the hunt field is also the source and training ground for many Olympic level 3-day event horses).

Whatever: If there is a change in government in the near future, no doubt foxhunting will be reintroduced, but pity the poor (presumably deceased) hounds in the interim.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by merphie
Interetsing to note the end of Fox Hunting in the UK. I have read the news, but I am curious to the the opinions of people in the UK.

Comments?

It's not banned yet it has got to go through the lords where it will be reject back to the commens where even more time will be wasted using the parliment act

[mummymonkey]

Some of the arguments of the pro-hunting have been laughable. In one interview they say "We hardly ever catch the fox" and in the next they say "It's a necessary measure to keep the number of foxes under control". Some idiots even try and tell me that shooting is crueler than chasing with dogs and being bitten to death.
For some of the other arguments about tradition and whatever you could easily substitute badger baiting or cock fighting.
I've no doubt for some people class is an issue, I think that's true. It's not why I find it objectionable though.
To me, killing an animal, whether for food, or to protect stock/property and such, should be done in the most humane manner possible given the circumstances. Making a sport out of it is just abhorrent to me and the majority of people in this country.
Hare coursing and hunting deer with hounds will also be banned I think which is good.
I'm happy to say that Scotland banned this barbarism some time ago. We've never had a hunt near where I live; at least not in my life time. We're not exactly overrun with them.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Some idiots even try and tell me that shooting is crueler than chasing with dogs and being bitten to death.

Yeah, shooting is crueler than chasing a terrified animal for miles until it's exhausted and then setting a pack of hounds on it to tear it to shreds.

I'm going to try to feel bad about the end of fox chases, but I hope you'll understand if I can't quite get there. Poor Lord Fattrump is going to have to get his jollies some other way. Maybe he can become a headmaster and cane future little lords' bottoms.

I'm reminded of how the Overlords dealt with bullfighting (another filthy blot on humanity) in Arthur Clarke's Childhood's End.

[Giz]

I rather thought that dogs were carniverous pack animals and that hunting - in a pack - was kind of "natural".

What about wolves? I hear they hunt in packs too, can we expect our gallant interventionist government to enforce a hunting ban on them? Or is it only an issue when the votes of the Labour faithfull can be rallied with a little class warfare?

Puerile bill to satisfy those who want to get at the "toffs" or who think nature is like bambi rather than red in tooth and claw. I blame too many townies reading too much Beatrix Potter and watching to much Disney giving them an idealised, anthromorphised view of the wild.

What happens to ratting now? Think of the poor terriers!

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Will you still feel that way when the foxes take over and enslave mankind!!!?

DAMN YOU, YOU BLEW IT UP DAMMMMMMMMN YOOOOOOOU!!

(apoligies to Chuck Heston)

A few years ago Mass. banned all these kinds of animal traps. Now we have Coyotes, skunks, and Racoons running all over the burbs n cities. Many a toy poodle have disapeared.

Kidding aside, the coyotes have gotten very bold. Only a matter of time till they take out a toddler.

We've had more than one taken by dingoes. But what is more scary are the packs of descendents of domestic dogs in the bush. I have heard they are can be very scary. You don't want them after you. Domestic dogs are just descendents of wolves that are reverting to their origins.

As for the foxes, they have moved into the suburbs, although they keep a low profile, (you can spot them late at night, crossing the roads). Kill as many as you want, they are just pests.

[Sandy M]

From a personal point of view, I have enjoyed "hunting," but I have no desire to be part of seeing any animal killed, vermin or not. At least here in California, that rarely, if ever, happens. Of the 4 or 5 times I have hunted, all but one were drag hunts, and we certainly didn't catch any fox on the one live hunt in which I participated. However, to a degree I don't quite "get it" with the big fuss about "we'll have to put the hounds to sleep" etc. If hunting foxes with a pack of hounds is banned, why cannot the British hunts turn to drag hunting, where they get their "sport" but no fox is actually involved? Yeah, it isn't traditional, and the "controlling vermin" argument goes by the wayside, but the hounds would still have a job, and the hunt members would still have the thrill (and it IS thrilling!) of galloping and jumping across-country.

[Jon_in_london]

d'ye'like'dags?

[crimresearch]

What is next? Banning bunny bops?

[Jon_in_london]

Sandy, what is drag hunting?

Wont banning hare coursing infringe the human rights of pikeys?

[Sandy M]

Jon - In drag hunting, a huntsman or someone else designated, goes out in the morning before the hunt and rides a course for the hunt to follow, dragging a bag of some sort soaked in scent that the hounds will follow. The hunt with which I have ridden actually has two packs of hounds - a "drag" pack and the "live" pack. The drag pack gets a lot more work! Drag hunts are often safer than live hunts, in that they can follow a known route and not the sort of zigs and zags that a live fox would do, plus, in terms of riding, they are faster since the hounds never "lose the scent." THerefore, the person laying the drag has to create breaks to simulate the "checks" that a live hunt experiences (to give everyone a chance to catch their breath).

[demon]

Sandy M:
"The British particularly hold forth the argument that IF hunting with hounds is outlawed, the necessity will arise to dispose of hundreds, if not thousands, of hounds, which if raised as hunting dogs are generally not suitable as household pets."

This is a bit of a red herring.
Hounds are regularly killed after the age of 6-7 when they are past their best as far as the "hunt folk" are concerned. A hound that shows little aptitude for the hunt will also be slaughtered, irrespective of it`s age.

"the Brits have sincere issues about controlling foxes and maintaining the fox hunting tradition (and the hunt field is also the source and training ground for many Olympic level 3-day event horses)."

Fox populations are "managed" in hunt areas so there is always a supply to hunt.
As for the "tradition" argument, I think we should just face it - some people quite like the look of the hunt, the "tradition" and the people who do it. That looks nice to them, like a terrier down a badger set looks nice to the badger baiter.

[Sandy M]

Demon, I don't say I accept those argument as true, just that the articles I have read hold forth those arguments. I can only see the "tradition" argument as being a "real" reason for hunting proponents. Obviously, control of vermin can be more effectively done with guns, traps and poison (though I concede that poison may affect other wildlife and domestic animals and therefore would be last choice.) However, as someone who has enjoyed hunting purely for the riding aspects, I see no other reason other than clinging to tradition, for live hunts to continue: All the arguments about euthanizing hounds because they would be "out of a job" go by the wayside if the hunts would turn to "drag hunting." They could still "hunt" - there just wouldn't be a REAL fox being chased, except in the instances when a real fox might cross the drag line and the hounds "riot" after the live fox. However, I understand there is a real resistance to the idea of "drag hunting only" - and that would seem to be based on the ideas of "appreciating the work of the hounds" and "tradition." Yes, drag hunt IS artificial, but my reaction is "so what?" If you want to gallop, jump, school your potential National Hunt or 3-day horse, you can do it just as well drag hunting. *shrug*

(Euthanize older hounds? I'm somewhat surprised. In the US, the usual thing is more to regard a good field hound as breeding stock, not destroy it. Not saying it doesn' t happen, but if so, it's something I have been totally unaware of, not that I am a frequent hunter. I think the last time I actually hunted was in the late '80s, but I do have friends/acquaintances who still hunt. I just plain can't afford it, nor is my present horse particularly suitable for the hunt field.)

[davefoc]

Major digression coming (so shoot me):

Somebody mentioned that the bill needed to get past the house of lords. As I understand it the hereditary seats in the house of lords are being done away with. Is this true?

If it is true how are they being eliminated? How does one become a member of the house of lords now?

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by davefoc
Major digression coming (so shoot me):

Somebody mentioned that the bill needed to get past the house of lords. As I understand it the hereditary seats in the house of lords are being done away with. Is this true?

If it is true how are they being eliminated? How does one become a member of the house of lords now?

By apointment. A comitte comes up with a list of the traditional great and good (top lawers a few scientists I think some the general idea is to have people with a bit of knowlage of the world). Throw in a fair number of party stooges and you have the house of lords.

[Mojo]

Not all of the hereditary peers have gone yet. They had an election (purely within the House of Lords, of course) to decide which ones to keep for the time being.

Incidentally, the clowns who invaded the Commons last week had the word "fcuk" on their t-shirts (this is the trademark of a clothing company called French Connection UK. I'm not sure if they are marketed outside this country). As they were probably making a futile gesture against the inevitable, I would have thought that "Cnut" may have been more appropriate.

[CapelDodger]

from Mojo:

Quote:

As they were probably making a futile gesture against the inevitable, I would have thought that "Cnut" may have been more appropriate.

Be assured, I will steal that.

[epepke]

Hmm... I guess I disagree with most people here. I once saw an episode of ST:TNG, the one with the fake casino/hotel on the other planet, where Troy said "He died peacefully in his sleep." Worf responded, "What a horrible way to die!" I agree with Worf.

As a human, when I die, I want to die in combat or in a struggle of some sort. I'd certainly prefer to run to the point of exhaustion from a pack of wild dogs and be torn apart than get caught in a trap and spend five days trying to chew my own leg off while dying of infection. Or even getting shot with a shotgun. It would probably be pretty quick, and I would be able to die knowing that I tried my best.

Of course, I'm not a fox, so maybe foxes see things differently. Maybe they'd really like to die hooked up to IV tubes. However, it seems to me that a lot of the statements about how fox-hunting is cruel and barbaric and what-not reflect the emotions of the human observers rather than the emotions of the fox.

[JamesM]

Quote:

Originally posted by davefoc
As I understand it the hereditary seats in the house of lords are being done away with. Is this true?

If it is true how are they being eliminated?

What do you think we're replacing fox hunting with?

[Sandy M]

James ... Will there be a tie-in here with the (upperclass) "Twit of the Year" competition?

[CapelDodger]

from epepke:

Quote:

Of course, I'm not a fox, so maybe foxes see things differently.

I'd say there's a damn' good chance of that. You don't strike me as one of the more empathic members of our species.

(edited for punctuation; oh, the shame ...)

[CapelDodger]

from geni:

Quote:

It's not banned yet it has got to go through the lords where it will be reject back to the commens where even more time will be wasted using the parliment act

Sad wasteful, but nothing will stop these Cnuts trying to dominate the Democratic House of our parliament. They still don't get it, so long after a royal Charlie got topped. They might need a booster shot, just to make sure it takes. And, providentially, there's a perfect Charlie available.

[Mojo]

Quote:

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Sad wasteful, but nothing will stop these Cnuts trying to dominate the Democratic House of our parliament.

Stop thief!!!

[CapelDodger]

Honest, Guv, there was Prior Use! Muvver's 'Onner!

[Ove]

Quote:

As a human, when I die, I want to die in combat or in a struggle of some sort. I'd certainly prefer to run to the point of exhaustion from a pack of wild dogs and be torn apart than get caught in a trap and spend five days trying to chew my own leg off while dying of infection. Or even getting shot with a shotgun. It would probably be pretty quick, and I would be able to die knowing that I tried my best.

Well i'm sure we can arrange something like that.

When we kill an animal we should ALLWAYS do it as quickly and painless as possible, that goes for the pig that recieves an quick electrical chock before the throat-slashing or the fox that gets shot. Chasing a fox for miles and miles before it is let loose amongst the hounds so that they can get "blooded" is merely a stupid excuse for animal cruelty. You trying to defend it by saying that the fox would prefer " die knowing that it tried the best" is about the most stupid remark i have ever heard. There is NOTHING glorious about dying it is the end -PERIOD and the best thing about it must be that it comes quickly.

But, now fox hunting has been banned perhaps we can get the EEC to work on the next black mark on Europa : Bullfighting.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from geni:Sad wasteful, but nothing will stop these Cnuts trying to dominate the Democratic House of our parliament. They still don't get it, so long after a royal Charlie got topped. They might need a booster shot, just to make sure it takes. And, providentially, there's a perfect Charlie available.

Strangely enough we invited his Son back to save us from tyranny.

We have an upper-house for a reason. That reason is to stop any government riding rough-shod over the constitution and setting up a tyranny- as Cromwell did, and as Bliar would love to do now.

Labour has decided to take the step of replacing hereditary peers with party cronies expressly for the purpose of trampling over the constitution. I hold no brief for a bunch of inbred toffs but I would rather them than a bunch of party cronies.

Its a sickening comment on the state of our democracy when a monarch and herditary peers are all that stand between democracy and a new Tyrannt

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
...snip...

Its a sickening comment on the state of our democracy when a monarch and herditary peers are all that stand between democracy and a new Tyrannt

So I shouldn't have bothered to vote?

Could you explain when the Queen has become a defender of democracy? I'd have thought she'd have her hands full being the “defender of the faith� (at which she has failed miserable.).

The UK government was elected under the same system we've been using for many many years, every party that has managed to achieve a large majority has acted in the same way as the current government.

With the current example of banning fox hunting the government has in fact blocked the “will of parliament� (which has consistently voted overwhelmingly to ban fox hunting in every single vote on the issue) for several years.

Seems as if the Blair can’t win with some people! There has been a popular campaign to ban fox hunting for years, it was part of the current government promises in two General Elections, and in both those elections the Labour party won an overwhelming majority of seats; for the government to not do everything in its power to ensure the ban happens would be an example of democracy being thwarted.

[Lothian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
We have an upper-house for a reason. That reason is to stop any government riding rough-shod over the constitution and setting up a tyranny- as Cromwell did, and as Bliar would love to do now.

Its a sickening comment on the state of our democracy when a monarch and herditary peers are all that stand between democracy and a new Tyrannt

Well, I don’t recall the monarch objecting to and refusing to sanction any bills recently.

As for the lords I can only (off the top of my head) think of two recent bills they have rejected and delayed (Don’t forget that the House of commons can ignore and overrule any upper house decision), Fox hunting and their own reform.

The first hardly promoting democracy, the majority being in favour of a ban.

The second being for self interest rather than democratic reasons.

[Jon_in_london]

I guess Im just a bit sick of Bliar's autocratic style. And I disagree that this government has behaved no diffrently from any other. Under Bliar's bizarre mix of socialism and crony-capitalism we have seen more constiutional reform than at almost any other time since the Civil War.

I used to be a rabid republican. I you could look through threads from a two years ago (you cant because they have all been deleted) you would find that my typical opinion of the Monarchy was "off with their inbred heads!".

I spent one year of my life in a Public School in which I gained an ingreained disliking for the upper crust. I hold no brief for descendents of the landed gentry

However, the sheer bare-faced shamlesness of this government's corruption, lies, dishonesty, selfservience, hypocisy, Disregard for the importance of the Union, hate of England, wastefulness, warmongering, secret deals with a Talking Texan Monkey, cronyism, assault on the freedom of the press, refusal to ever admit any fault on their part and general complete absence of any slim shread of integrity no matter how small has left me severaly disillusioned.

In contrast to all this the Monarchy appears through the mist of the fart-leaden sleazy fog that is New Labour- A bastion of honesty, integrity and all the basic values that I- Personally- hold sacred.

/rant.

[Lothian]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
...... Under Bliar's bizarre mix of socialism and crony-capitalism we have seen more constiutional reform...............

/rant.

To be a mix of socialism there must have been some socialism, I am not sure if there has been any.

BTW You can combine being a rebublican with disliking Blair.