Should adultery be illegal?

Eos of the Eons · 22nd September 2004, 08:47 PM

http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews...8&lid=1113#n14

This question has me stumped. You do sign a contract when you're married. You do vow to be "true" to the one you marry.

What would the punishment be if it were illegal?

I think our court systems have enough criminals to deal with. Actually convicting people of adultery seems rather extreme. There are consequences for adultery already. You may lose your spouse, get an STD, etc.

So why bother making it illegal?

In a way, it would be okay. You do something bad, you get punished. I don't think it would deter people though. Humans are so fickle. What would constitute adultery? Getting some services from hooker? I guess. Is it only a physical thing? Some people feel you can be adulterous just by having a close relationship with someone else.

I figure it would just be a huge pain in the butt if it were made illegal.

Just make it grounds for divorce (isn't it already?).

American · 22nd September 2004, 08:52 PM

If you're really interested, I am discrete and understanding of your situation.

Patrick · 22nd September 2004, 08:54 PM

It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce.

Slut.

Marquis de Carabas · 22nd September 2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick
It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce.

Slut.

You intended to follow this with a

or a

right? Just left it off? You're not really so vile as to insult people with no provocation? (I admit, I provoke

)

Eos of the Eons · 22nd September 2004, 09:15 PM

Sigh. Hey, did you at least participate in the poll? Now, how to get a debate going?

Um.

Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract.

Now, for the punishments. 1st offence, a fine of ten thousand bucks. 2nd, jail time with scary inmates that want to reenact your escapades with you...

Marquis de Carabas · 22nd September 2004, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Sigh. Hey, did you at least participate in the poll? Now, how to get a debate going?

Um.

Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract.

Now, for the punishments. 1st offence, a fine of ten thousand bucks. 2nd, jail time with scary inmates that want to reenact your escapades with you...

Why not just have the punishments follow the existing breach of contract rules? Not that I have any idea what those are.

The problem really will be what counts as adultery? Anything that if you did to an unwilling partner would be rape?

American · 22nd September 2004, 09:25 PM

Fines are unfair. Us rich guys can pay them, and you poor people will have to behave yourselves.

Eos of the Eons · 22nd September 2004, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Why not just have the punishments follow the existing breach of contract rules? Not that I have any idea what those are.

The problem really will be what counts as adultery? Anything that if you did to an unwilling partner would be rape?

Hm, don't know breach of contract rules. Is Cleo around here?

Now, wouldn't it be interesting to see somebody try to guage what exactly is adultery in every possible shape and form? Could it be done? What about porn? What if somebody only goes for porn and never touches their spouse again? Is that adultery?

a_unique_person · 22nd September 2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick
It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce.

Slut.

WTF is that for? Are all republicans like this deep down?

Marquis de Carabas · 22nd September 2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Hm, don't know breach of contract rules. Is Cleo around here?

Now, wouldn't it be interesting to see somebody try to guage what exactly is adultery in every possible shape and form? Could it be done? What about porn? What if somebody only goes for porn and never touches their spouse again? Is that adultery?

Guess we'll wait for the breach rules.

If there's to be a law, they have to draw a line somewhere. Personally, I'd laugh myself silly if they put the words "second base" in the law books for adultery.

Seriously, though, it'd be tough to define. Plus, can you imagine the husbands who'd cheat in spirit, but be careful not to cross the line, and just say "Hey honey, it ain't adultery!"

Marquis de Carabas · 22nd September 2004, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
WTF is that for? Are all republicans like this deep down?

I'm not a Republican, but I know some, and I can assure you they aren't. Republicofascists, however, are.

Mycroft · 22nd September 2004, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract.

Yeah, well illegal in that sense is a matter for civil court, not criminal court.

Dorian Gray · 22nd September 2004, 09:42 PM

Not illegal, no. Or else, how will the other spouse get alimony?

Eos of the Eons · 22nd September 2004, 09:44 PM

Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right?

peptoabysmal · 22nd September 2004, 09:50 PM

You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country.

It's Turkey.
The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue.

I vote no.

Then again, this law will likely prevent Turkey from joining the E.U.

I vote yes.

epepke · 22nd September 2004, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right?

Um, no. Breaking a contract isn't illegal. There may be penalties specified in the contract or, depending on the state, on the type of contract.

Trying to evade those penalties, however, may be illegal, depending.

peptoabysmal · 22nd September 2004, 10:13 PM

From the story that the link in the original post leads to:

Quote:

Turkish women are up in arms about a proposal to criminalize adultery. The ruling Justice and Development Party, which has its roots in an Islamic movement, is proposing to make adultery a crime punishable by up to three years in jail.

"The State Is Entering Our Bedroom," read a headline in last Fridayâ€™s issue of the daily newspaper Radikal.

Adultery was illegal in Turkey until 1996, when the nation's highest court ruled that the ban was unconstitutional because it discriminated against women. Under the original law, men were deemed adulterers only if it was proved that they had been involved in a prolonged affair, whereas women could be charged even if they had been unfaithful just once. Under the proposed law, men and women would be prosecuted on equal terms.

I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom. This does not include rape, incest or child molestation. I mean between consenting adults.

Quote:

Under the original law, men were deemed adulterers only if it was proved that they had been involved in a prolonged affair, whereas women could be charged even if they had been unfaithful just once.

Think the new law will be that different even though they say men and women will be prosecuted equally?

edited for clarity...

Questioninggeller · 23rd September 2004, 12:06 AM

Explain why we need the courts to deal with one more thing?

People have different conceptions of what marriage is...

so my answer is no.

Patrick · 23rd September 2004, 12:51 AM

I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom.

That's pretty vague ... the state, even in a libertarian state, has the power to enforce contracts. By long common law and practice and statue, adultery is the breaking of the marriage contract, and grounds for divorce. That is the proper state involvement.

Camillus · 23rd September 2004, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country.

Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them.

MRC_Hans · 23rd September 2004, 01:16 AM

Funny, only Americans and Moslems will even consider making infidelety a criminal offence. Go figure.

Hans

MRC_Hans · 23rd September 2004, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Camillus
Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them.

Civilized? Mmmm....

Hans

Matabiri · 23rd September 2004, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick
I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom.

That's pretty vague ... the state, even in a libertarian state, has the power to enforce contracts. By long common law and practice and statue, adultery is the breaking of the marriage contract, and grounds for divorce. That is the proper state involvement.

I'd say remove "marriage" from the State's control. Instigate some sort of "partnership" contract, to carry over the next-of-kin rights etc., but those could be between any two people; no sex required. Marriage and all it personally and spiritually entails is then in the hands of the church/whomever you want to marry you.

BPSCG · 23rd September 2004, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Funny, only Americans and Moslems will even consider making infidelety a criminal offence. Go figure.

Hans

I believe Eos is Canadian. Only a German would have trouble with that distinction.

Seriously, there are a couple of problems with the initial premise. Lawyers, straighten me out where I stray:

1) Violation of a public responsibility is a crime. Violation of a private (i.e. contractual) responsibility is a tort. They are two different things.

2) Whether marriage qualifies as a contract under the law is, I believe, still open for debate. If it were, no questions asked, then same-sex marriages in the U.S. would unquestionably be legal throughout the country the minute one state recognized them; that's because our Constitution provides for protection of contracts entered into in one state througout all fifty states.

a_unique_person · 23rd September 2004, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country.

It's Turkey.
The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue.

I vote no.

Then again, this law will likely prevent Turkey from joining the E.U.

I vote yes.

I hear they aren't too keen on gay marriage, either.

TragicMonkey · 23rd September 2004, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Camillus
Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them.

I've lived in Virginia for years, and it's not civilized at all.

I think adultery should be mandatory. It would make life more interesting in this religion-infested backwater.

LW · 23rd September 2004, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
It's Turkey.
The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue.

Ah yes, it is a muslim country so obviously its legal conventions are on early Middle-Age level, how on earth could I forget it?

MRC_Hans · 23rd September 2004, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
I believe Eos is Canadian. Only a German would have trouble with that distinction.

Seriously, there are a couple of problems with the initial premise. Lawyers, straighten me out where I stray:

1) Violation of a public responsibility is a crime. Violation of a private (i.e. contractual) responsibility is a tort. They are two different things.

2) Whether marriage qualifies as a contract under the law is, I believe, still open for debate. If it were, no questions asked, then same-sex marriages in the U.S. would unquestionably be legal throughout the country the minute one state recognized them; that's because our Constitution provides for protection of contracts entered into in one state througout all fifty states.

Isn't Canada part of America? ... OK, you got me there

, especially the "German" part

.

Seriously, your points are good. Although #2 doesn't seem to pertain to Canada

.

Hans

Tmy · 23rd September 2004, 07:18 AM

In many states its still illegal, just rarely prosecuted.

You forget the other culprit. THe OTHER WOMEN/MAN. Every once in a while theres a story of pissed off wife sueing the other women. GOOD! Its shoudl be illeagl considering the damage caused. The mistress is interfereing with the marriage contract at the very least.

CBL4 · 23rd September 2004, 10:47 AM

Forgetting whether it should be illegal, the legal implication are absurd. I think I read that close to 50% of the people in the US have committed adultery. Do we really want to fine or jail half the population?

Laws that a commonly broken only cause contempt for the judicial system and foster corruption. Police would arrest someone for adultery because they (or the DA or the mayor) have a grudge against someone.

In the VA case, I wonder what the guy did to piss someone off?

CBL

TragicMonkey · 23rd September 2004, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
In the VA case, I wonder what the guy did to piss someone off?

It was the other woman who pressed charges. Apparently he wanted to stop having an affair with her, so she decided he should be punished for having an affair with her to begin with!

Unrelated question: what's the legal definition of adultery? Can it be considered adultery if a married couple has a threesome? Hmm. It could make for some very interesting court cases.

CBL4 · 23rd September 2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

It was the other woman who pressed charges

But the DA has the discretion to press or not pursue the case. Why did he choose to do so? Why didn't he charge the other woman with some conspiracy charge?

Unless a prosecutor has a bee up his bonnet, it is very difficult to get him to press charges especially on a misdemeanor. I have been trying for months to get someone charged with a [i]felony[i] real estate fraud and the police still have not even questioned the perpetrator.

CBL

TragicMonkey · 23rd September 2004, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
But the DA has the discretion to press or not pursue the case. Why did he choose to do so?

I don't remember reading about his reasons, but I'm willing to bet that he's up for reelection and was afraid of seeming soft on immorality and crime.

After all, why have a law if you're not going to enforce it? Either enforce them all, or get rid of the stupid ones.

BPSCG · 23rd September 2004, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
Forgetting whether it should be illegal, the legal implication are absurd. I think I read that close to 50% of the people in the US have committed adultery. Do we really want to fine or jail half the population?

Yeah. We could balance the budget and I could get to work faster.

I'm in the other 50%...

Chanileslie · 23rd September 2004, 11:16 AM

I have a real problem with government legislating morality and that is what this is would be. Yes, marriage is a contract, but like most contracts, it can be fluid and the rules that apply to each contract are up to the individuals involved in that contract. And there is already a punishment for breaking that contract, it is called divorce. Also, if there are damages, like any contract, one can sue a straying partner in a civil court, as with any contract issues, not a criminal court.

I also have a problem with any government interference in who we sleep with and when and how. This should not be at issue ever. If I feel wronged by my partner, then I will take it up with my partner. This is not a criminal matter, civil, possibly, but not criminal.

In addition to that, if infidelity were to be made illegal, where does that stop? What about a couple that choses to have an open marriage? A couple who are open to polyamory and wish to invite other people to share their bond? We have no right to tell people how to live their lives and who they may or may not sleep with.

I think politicians would use this type of legislation to badger groups that they or their constituents don't like, such as homosexuals and polyamorous groups.

And finally, government should not be involved in marriage in any form at all. It is a basic impingement on our rights and freedoms.

Chanileslie · 23rd September 2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right?

No, not necessarily. Contracts are drawn up based on what the individuals will agree to, and what is contracted for one set of people may not be the same as what is contracted for the another set of people. And unless the contract language is very specific, it can be open to interpretations. If one breaks a contract, one may be liable for monetary or property damages, but there is no criminal record attached.

BPSCG · 23rd September 2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chanileslie
No, not necessarily. Contracts are drawn up based on what the individuals will agree to, and what is contracted for one set of people may not be the same as what is contracted for the another set of people.

In marriages, both parties generally agree to "forsake all others" or words to that effect. Kinda hard to wriggle off that hook, especially when you got on it publicly, in front of your friends, your family, everyone you hold dear, as well as an official of the faith of your God or a public official.

DaChew · 23rd September 2004, 12:11 PM

Quick question: Would oral sex be considered punishable adultery?

TragicMonkey · 23rd September 2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaChew
Quick question: Would oral sex be considered punishable adultery?

That's what I meant by more interesting court cases. Can you imagine the sound bites from that trial?

pgwenthold · 23rd September 2004, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Unrelated question: what's the legal definition of adultery? Can it be considered adultery if a married couple has a threesome? Hmm. It could make for some very interesting court cases.

Well, it might help to get people to stop trying to get out of jury duty.

Video! We want video!

22nd September 2004, 08:47 PM	#1
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Should adultery be illegal? http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews...8&lid=1113#n14 This question has me stumped. You do sign a contract when you're married. You do vow to be "true" to the one you marry. What would the punishment be if it were illegal? I think our court systems have enough criminals to deal with. Actually convicting people of adultery seems rather extreme. There are consequences for adultery already. You may lose your spouse, get an STD, etc. So why bother making it illegal? In a way, it would be okay. You do something bad, you get punished. I don't think it would deter people though. Humans are so fickle. What would constitute adultery? Getting some services from hooker? I guess. Is it only a physical thing? Some people feel you can be adulterous just by having a close relationship with someone else. I figure it would just be a huge pain in the butt if it were made illegal. Just make it grounds for divorce (isn't it already?).
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

22nd September 2004, 08:54 PM	#3
Patrick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,224	It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce. Slut.
Patrick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,224

22nd September 2004, 08:59 PM	#4
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Quote: Originally posted by Patrick It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce. Slut. You intended to follow this with a or a right? Just left it off? You're not really so vile as to insult people with no provocation? (I admit, I provoke )
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

22nd September 2004, 09:15 PM	#5
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Sigh. Hey, did you at least participate in the poll? Now, how to get a debate going? Um. Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract. Now, for the punishments. 1st offence, a fine of ten thousand bucks. 2nd, jail time with scary inmates that want to reenact your escapades with you...
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

22nd September 2004, 09:17 PM	#6
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Quote: Originally posted by Eos of the Eons Sigh. Hey, did you at least participate in the poll? Now, how to get a debate going? Um. Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract. Now, for the punishments. 1st offence, a fine of ten thousand bucks. 2nd, jail time with scary inmates that want to reenact your escapades with you... Why not just have the punishments follow the existing breach of contract rules? Not that I have any idea what those are. The problem really will be what counts as adultery? Anything that if you did to an unwilling partner would be rape?
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

22nd September 2004, 08:52 PM	#2
American Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: CA Posts: 3,842	If you're really interested, I am discrete and understanding of your situation.

22nd September 2004, 09:25 PM	#7
American Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: CA Posts: 3,842	Fines are unfair. Us rich guys can pay them, and you poor people will have to behave yourselves.

22nd September 2004, 09:35 PM	#8
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas Why not just have the punishments follow the existing breach of contract rules? Not that I have any idea what those are. The problem really will be what counts as adultery? Anything that if you did to an unwilling partner would be rape? Hm, don't know breach of contract rules. Is Cleo around here? Now, wouldn't it be interesting to see somebody try to guage what exactly is adultery in every possible shape and form? Could it be done? What about porn? What if somebody only goes for porn and never touches their spouse again? Is that adultery?
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

22nd September 2004, 09:39 PM	#9
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,331	Quote: Originally posted by Patrick It's not illegal - just grounds for divorce. Slut. WTF is that for? Are all republicans like this deep down?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

22nd September 2004, 09:40 PM	#11
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person WTF is that for? Are all republicans like this deep down? I'm not a Republican, but I know some, and I can assure you they aren't. Republicofascists, however, are.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

22nd September 2004, 09:42 PM	#12
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,106	Quote: Originally posted by Eos of the Eons Yes, adultery should be illegal because you break a binding contract. Yeah, well illegal in that sense is a matter for civil court, not criminal court.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

22nd September 2004, 09:42 PM	#13
Dorian Gray Hypocrisy Detector Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 20,196	Not illegal, no. Or else, how will the other spouse get alimony?
	__________________ "A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka "Rational arguments don't work on religious people. If they did, there wouldn't be any religious people." - House Additionally to Carlin being funnier than Izzard, I think Dorian is funnier than the Marquis. - Ron Tomkins

22nd September 2004, 09:44 PM	#14
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right?
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

22nd September 2004, 09:50 PM	#15
peptoabysmal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,467	You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country. It's Turkey. The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue. I vote no. Then again, this law will likely prevent Turkey from joining the E.U. I vote yes.
	__________________ OBAMA: It's not that I want to punish your success; I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you that they've got a chance to success, too. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.

22nd September 2004, 09:57 PM	#16
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Quote: Originally posted by Eos of the Eons Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right? Um, no. Breaking a contract isn't illegal. There may be penalties specified in the contract or, depending on the state, on the type of contract. Trying to evade those penalties, however, may be illegal, depending.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950

22nd September 2004, 10:13 PM	#17
peptoabysmal Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,467	From the story that the link in the original post leads to: Quote: Turkish women are up in arms about a proposal to criminalize adultery. The ruling Justice and Development Party, which has its roots in an Islamic movement, is proposing to make adultery a crime punishable by up to three years in jail. "The State Is Entering Our Bedroom," read a headline in last Fridayâ€™s issue of the daily newspaper Radikal. Adultery was illegal in Turkey until 1996, when the nation's highest court ruled that the ban was unconstitutional because it discriminated against women. Under the original law, men were deemed adulterers only if it was proved that they had been involved in a prolonged affair, whereas women could be charged even if they had been unfaithful just once. Under the proposed law, men and women would be prosecuted on equal terms. I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom. This does not include rape, incest or child molestation. I mean between consenting adults. Quote: Under the original law, men were deemed adulterers only if it was proved that they had been involved in a prolonged affair, whereas women could be charged even if they had been unfaithful just once. Think the new law will be that different even though they say men and women will be prosecuted equally? edited for clarity...
	__________________ OBAMA: It's not that I want to punish your success; I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you that they've got a chance to success, too. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody.

23rd September 2004, 12:06 AM	#18
Questioninggeller Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,030	Explain why we need the courts to deal with one more thing? People have different conceptions of what marriage is... so my answer is no.

23rd September 2004, 12:51 AM	#19
Patrick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,224	I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom. That's pretty vague ... the state, even in a libertarian state, has the power to enforce contracts. By long common law and practice and statue, adultery is the breaking of the marriage contract, and grounds for divorce. That is the proper state involvement.
Patrick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,224

23rd September 2004, 01:15 AM	#20
Camillus Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 298	Quote: Originally posted by peptoabysmal You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country. Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them.
Camillus Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 298	__________________ Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

23rd September 2004, 01:16 AM	#21
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Funny, only Americans and Moslems will even consider making infidelety a criminal offence. Go figure. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd September 2004, 01:17 AM	#22
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Quote: Originally posted by Camillus Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them. Civilized? Mmmm.... Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd September 2004, 01:22 AM	#23
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Patrick I agree that no state has any business in anyone's bedroom. That's pretty vague ... the state, even in a libertarian state, has the power to enforce contracts. By long common law and practice and statue, adultery is the breaking of the marriage contract, and grounds for divorce. That is the proper state involvement. I'd say remove "marriage" from the State's control. Instigate some sort of "partnership" contract, to carry over the next-of-kin rights etc., but those could be between any two people; no sex required. Marriage and all it personally and spiritually entails is then in the hands of the church/whomever you want to marry you.
	__________________ "That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school." - Ashley Pomeroy

23rd September 2004, 04:43 AM	#24
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Funny, only Americans and Moslems will even consider making infidelety a criminal offence. Go figure. Hans I believe Eos is Canadian. Only a German would have trouble with that distinction. Seriously, there are a couple of problems with the initial premise. Lawyers, straighten me out where I stray: 1) Violation of a public responsibility is a crime. Violation of a private (i.e. contractual) responsibility is a tort. They are two different things. 2) Whether marriage qualifies as a contract under the law is, I believe, still open for debate. If it were, no questions asked, then same-sex marriages in the U.S. would unquestionably be legal throughout the country the minute one state recognized them; that's because our Constitution provides for protection of contracts entered into in one state througout all fifty states.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd September 2004, 04:49 AM	#25
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,331	Quote: Originally posted by peptoabysmal You're discussing this as if it were being considered in a civilized country. It's Turkey. The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue. I vote no. Then again, this law will likely prevent Turkey from joining the E.U. I vote yes. I hear they aren't too keen on gay marriage, either.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

23rd September 2004, 05:21 AM	#26
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Quote: Originally posted by Camillus Some civilised countries do have laws that make adultery illegal. In the US, for instance, 24 States have laws against adultery (and ten have laws against premarital sex). The most recent prosecution was in August this year in Virginia, so some people are still willing to use them. I've lived in Virginia for years, and it's not civilized at all. I think adultery should be mandatory. It would make life more interesting in this religion-infested backwater.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

23rd September 2004, 05:34 AM	#27
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by peptoabysmal It's Turkey. The evidence presented in court will likely be a white hot knife on the wife's tongue. Ah yes, it is a muslim country so obviously its legal conventions are on early Middle-Age level, how on earth could I forget it?

23rd September 2004, 07:05 AM	#28
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG I believe Eos is Canadian. Only a German would have trouble with that distinction. Seriously, there are a couple of problems with the initial premise. Lawyers, straighten me out where I stray: 1) Violation of a public responsibility is a crime. Violation of a private (i.e. contractual) responsibility is a tort. They are two different things. 2) Whether marriage qualifies as a contract under the law is, I believe, still open for debate. If it were, no questions asked, then same-sex marriages in the U.S. would unquestionably be legal throughout the country the minute one state recognized them; that's because our Constitution provides for protection of contracts entered into in one state througout all fifty states. Isn't Canada part of America? ... OK, you got me there , especially the "German" part . Seriously, your points are good. Although #2 doesn't seem to pertain to Canada . Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

23rd September 2004, 07:18 AM	#29
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	In many states its still illegal, just rarely prosecuted. You forget the other culprit. THe OTHER WOMEN/MAN. Every once in a while theres a story of pissed off wife sueing the other women. GOOD! Its shoudl be illeagl considering the damage caused. The mistress is interfereing with the marriage contract at the very least.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

23rd September 2004, 10:47 AM	#30
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349	Forgetting whether it should be illegal, the legal implication are absurd. I think I read that close to 50% of the people in the US have committed adultery. Do we really want to fine or jail half the population? Laws that a commonly broken only cause contempt for the judicial system and foster corruption. Police would arrest someone for adultery because they (or the DA or the mayor) have a grudge against someone. In the VA case, I wonder what the guy did to piss someone off? CBL
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349

23rd September 2004, 10:52 AM	#31
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Quote: Originally posted by CBL4 In the VA case, I wonder what the guy did to piss someone off? It was the other woman who pressed charges. Apparently he wanted to stop having an affair with her, so she decided he should be punished for having an affair with her to begin with! Unrelated question: what's the legal definition of adultery? Can it be considered adultery if a married couple has a threesome? Hmm. It could make for some very interesting court cases.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

23rd September 2004, 11:03 AM	#32
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349	Quote: It was the other woman who pressed charges But the DA has the discretion to press or not pursue the case. Why did he choose to do so? Why didn't he charge the other woman with some conspiracy charge? Unless a prosecutor has a bee up his bonnet, it is very difficult to get him to press charges especially on a misdemeanor. I have been trying for months to get someone charged with a [i]felony[i] real estate fraud and the police still have not even questioned the perpetrator. CBL
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349

23rd September 2004, 11:06 AM	#33
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Quote: Originally posted by CBL4 But the DA has the discretion to press or not pursue the case. Why did he choose to do so? I don't remember reading about his reasons, but I'm willing to bet that he's up for reelection and was afraid of seeming soft on immorality and crime. After all, why have a law if you're not going to enforce it? Either enforce them all, or get rid of the stupid ones.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

23rd September 2004, 11:07 AM	#34
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Quote: Originally posted by CBL4 Forgetting whether it should be illegal, the legal implication are absurd. I think I read that close to 50% of the people in the US have committed adultery. Do we really want to fine or jail half the population? Yeah. We could balance the budget and I could get to work faster. I'm in the other 50%...
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd September 2004, 11:16 AM	#35
Chanileslie Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,378	I have a real problem with government legislating morality and that is what this is would be. Yes, marriage is a contract, but like most contracts, it can be fluid and the rules that apply to each contract are up to the individuals involved in that contract. And there is already a punishment for breaking that contract, it is called divorce. Also, if there are damages, like any contract, one can sue a straying partner in a civil court, as with any contract issues, not a criminal court. I also have a problem with any government interference in who we sleep with and when and how. This should not be at issue ever. If I feel wronged by my partner, then I will take it up with my partner. This is not a criminal matter, civil, possibly, but not criminal. In addition to that, if infidelity were to be made illegal, where does that stop? What about a couple that choses to have an open marriage? A couple who are open to polyamory and wish to invite other people to share their bond? We have no right to tell people how to live their lives and who they may or may not sleep with. I think politicians would use this type of legislation to badger groups that they or their constituents don't like, such as homosexuals and polyamorous groups. And finally, government should not be involved in marriage in any form at all. It is a basic impingement on our rights and freedoms.

23rd September 2004, 11:23 AM	#36
Chanileslie Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,378	Quote: Originally posted by Eos of the Eons Tomatoes, tomotoes. Civil, criminal. Either way it would be illegal right? No, not necessarily. Contracts are drawn up based on what the individuals will agree to, and what is contracted for one set of people may not be the same as what is contracted for the another set of people. And unless the contract language is very specific, it can be open to interpretations. If one breaks a contract, one may be liable for monetary or property damages, but there is no criminal record attached.