Justifying the eternal Hellfire.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 05:20 AM

People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

Ossai · 28th September 2004, 05:40 AM

1inChrist

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Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

Which version of your god are you talking about?

If itâ€™s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions.

If you want to limit your god and claim that humanâ€™s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god.

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Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him?

How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place?

Ossai

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 06:06 AM

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Which version of your god are you talking about?

Don't play that typical sceptical nonsense with me. You know very well which God I am talking about. I am talking about the one True God who's Word is contained in the Holy Bible. What other God condemns people to an eternal Hellfire? Stop trying to compare the one True God with those pagan idols.

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If itâ€™s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions.

He did. Want to know His Word?The Holy Bible

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If you want to limit your god and claim that humanâ€™s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god.

They all know Him. They just choose to reject Him. How can you not know Him? I have been informing you all of the Truth of Christ. You have just chosen to reject this Truth.

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How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place?

I'm telling you! You have two choices:

#1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire.

#2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved.

Upchurch · 28th September 2004, 06:10 AM

My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?"

First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists. As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty.

Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego?

Upchurch · 28th September 2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1inChrist
I'm telling you! You have two choices:

#1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire.

#2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved.

So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that.

Stimpson J. Cat · 28th September 2004, 06:13 AM

1inChrist,

Quote:

People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?''

Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve.

Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe.

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Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible.

Dr. Stupid

Skeptical Greg · 28th September 2004, 06:19 AM

Isn't your God supposed to be just?

What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime?

I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know.

What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified?

MRC_Hans · 28th September 2004, 06:23 AM

This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer?

Hans

TragicMonkey · 28th September 2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1inChrist
Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him.

Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex.

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Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God.

So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising.

No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club!

Gastric ReFlux · 28th September 2004, 06:52 AM

I think the best justification is that you'll get to laugh up in heaven listening to the "Holy Holy Holy Holy" chant while the depraved heathen unbelievers burn forever and ever.

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"Unrepentant heathens will be lit on fire for all eternity!!! They will have resurrected bodies that can never die. However, they will be on fire and burn in intense unimanginable pain and suffering!!! Screaming from the tops of their lungs for trillions and trillions of googles!!! Never, ever, not even for one (1) minute having rest from being on fire!!!... There are not long enough graphs to put the equation of eternal Suffering and pain on.

Think of being in your garage and accidently having the gas can fall on you and spill all over you and your clothes. Then your nieghbor throws his cigarette over the fence and fffrrrooommmmm!!! You've just been lit on fire! You start screaming and yelling for help! Your eyes are burning with fire so you can't see, therefore you run into the outside wall of your house and fall down and just keep burning and screaming in pain!!! Well that would be a vacation to those who will burn in the lake of fire!!!

What's my point? Even if the homoSEXuals, liars, ABORTIONists, and all haters of GOD, succede in their political whoredom, who do they really wind up burning in the end??????? "
- Sola Gratia, Christianity.com forums

Sounds like your daughters will end up extra crispy, huh? But I suppose that's just a temptation from Satan to make you wonder why a just and loving God would do such a thing.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 06:57 AM

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My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?"

The original parents decided to disobey the Lord which is why we are all destined to the eternal Hellfire. However, Jesus Christ who died on the Cross will give us eternal Salvation and all we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

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First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists.

It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists.

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As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty.

I am right now telling you about the Lord and His plan of Salvation. You cannot claim on judgement day that you were never warned.

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Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego? [/b]

God gave you a choice. It's YOUR choice, not His. He gave you free will. I am telling you right now you have to choices. Follow the Lord or go to Hell. What is your desicion?

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 06:58 AM

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So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that.

Other religions cannot be trusted as The Word warns of false prophets, idols and gods.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:02 AM

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Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve.

I do not know why God has chosen what He has but I do not question God. If God does it, He has His reasons. Fact: God=Good. If God does it, it's good whether we humans agree or not. God can not do evil.

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Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe.

You are evil in the eyes of God if you reject Him and live a life of sin and are a servant to the Beast.

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No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible.

You have heard about His Word. Gullible? Is it Gullible to accept Christ as your Savior? No. Is it Gullible to want to go to Heaven and not Hell? No.

Skeptical Greg · 28th September 2004, 07:02 AM

You still haven't explained why a God who would torture people for eternity is an O.K. thing with you?

DaveW · 28th September 2004, 07:04 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist

It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists.

Funny, the Bible also disproves itself several times. Here's some failed/erroneous/questionable prophecies related to Matthew. And that's just one book.

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:05 AM

Your excuse for your god's regime of eternal torture boils down to 'my god is a petulant child, deal with it.' Well, I'm not dealing. I'll take torture before I kowtow to someone's ego trip.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:06 AM

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Isn't your God supposed to be just?

He is Just.

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What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime?

In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated.

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I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know.

Sorry but we humans don't make the rules. God does.

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What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified?

Whatever God does is Just. If you disagree it's YOUR opinion that is false, not God's.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:07 AM

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This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer?

God can do anything.

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:10 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
God can do anything.

Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we?

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:10 AM

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Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex.

God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. Sadly, the original parents turned away from Him which damned all us to the Hellfire.

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So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising.

God doesn't gamble. He knows all. Past, present, future and eternity.

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No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club! [/b]

He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell.

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:11 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him.

That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:12 AM

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Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we? [/b]

Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God.

Skeptical Greg · 28th September 2004, 07:12 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
He is Just.

In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated.

Sorry but we humans don't make the rules. God does.

Whatever God does is Just. If you disagree it's YOUR opinion that is false, not God's.

Why can't you answer the question?

Why do YOU think it is O.K. for any being to torture someone?

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:13 AM

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That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

Why is it sad?

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:14 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God.

A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight.
B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:15 AM

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Why do YOU think it is O.K. for any being to torture someone?

God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us.

Lisa Simpson · 28th September 2004, 07:16 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him.

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Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.

I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell.

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:16 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
Why is it sad?

You don't find it sad that lonely ol' God had to create us to keep Him company and feed His ego? Like we're some perverse little deific fantasy?

Gastric ReFlux · 28th September 2004, 07:17 AM

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Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell.

That doesn't inspire you to worship?

Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe?

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:17 AM

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A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight.

Yes there is.

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B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe.

Fine. Choose to reject Him because you disagree with His actions. Just be prepared to face the consequences of your choice in the End.

Marquis de Carabas · 28th September 2004, 07:19 AM

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Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
That doesn't inspire you to worship?

Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe?

Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:19 AM

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You don't find it sad that lonely ol' God had to create us to keep Him company and feed His ego? Like we're some perverse little deific fantasy?

He also gives us so much in return! He gives us a chance to bathe in His Glory for eternity in Heaven!

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:20 AM

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Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.

Lisa Simpson · 28th September 2004, 07:20 AM

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Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.

Not for me...I don't like Cheetos. You get that yucky orange powder all over your fingers. I can't imagine dealing with that for all eternity. Now, if you are talking an eternity of chocolate...

Skeptical Greg · 28th September 2004, 07:21 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us.

And this is your idea of love?

El Greco · 28th September 2004, 07:22 AM

God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too.

There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding.

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:23 AM

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And this is your idea of love?

My idea of love is a God who creates us and gives us a chance to recieve a reward of eternal happiness in Heaven. All we have to do is follow Him and reject Satan.

Lisa Simpson · 28th September 2004, 07:24 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.

Perhaps, but it would also be (theoretically) filled with the very same narrow-minded bigots I can't stand in life. Why would I want that for eternity?

DaveW · 28th September 2004, 07:24 AM

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Originally posted by 1inChrist
He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell.

How is this not a threat?

1inChrist · 28th September 2004, 07:24 AM

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God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too.

You cannot destroy God for He is eternal and omnipotent.

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There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding.

Yes He is. You just put your hands over your ears and say ''There is no God. There is no God. There is no God. There is no God.'' However rejecting and ignoring Him won't make Him magically go away.

28th September 2004, 06:13 AM	#6
Stimpson J. Cat Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,833	1inChrist, Quote: People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?'' Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God. Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve. Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe. Quote: Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape. No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible. Dr. Stupid
	__________________ A poke in the eye makes Baby Jesus cry.

28th September 2004, 06:19 AM	#7
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Isn't your God supposed to be just? What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime? I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know. What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified?
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

28th September 2004, 06:23 AM	#8
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

28th September 2004, 06:29 AM	#9
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,092	Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex. Quote: Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God. So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising. No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club!
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

28th September 2004, 06:52 AM	#10
Gastric ReFlux Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 257	I think the best justification is that you'll get to laugh up in heaven listening to the "Holy Holy Holy Holy" chant while the depraved heathen unbelievers burn forever and ever. Quote: "Unrepentant heathens will be lit on fire for all eternity!!! They will have resurrected bodies that can never die. However, they will be on fire and burn in intense unimanginable pain and suffering!!! Screaming from the tops of their lungs for trillions and trillions of googles!!! Never, ever, not even for one (1) minute having rest from being on fire!!!... There are not long enough graphs to put the equation of eternal Suffering and pain on. Think of being in your garage and accidently having the gas can fall on you and spill all over you and your clothes. Then your nieghbor throws his cigarette over the fence and fffrrrooommmmm!!! You've just been lit on fire! You start screaming and yelling for help! Your eyes are burning with fire so you can't see, therefore you run into the outside wall of your house and fall down and just keep burning and screaming in pain!!! Well that would be a vacation to those who will burn in the lake of fire!!! What's my point? Even if the homoSEXuals, liars, ABORTIONists, and all haters of GOD, succede in their political whoredom, who do they really wind up burning in the end??????? " - Sola Gratia, Christianity.com forums Sounds like your daughters will end up extra crispy, huh? But I suppose that's just a temptation from Satan to make you wonder why a just and loving God would do such a thing.
	__________________ Coolest smiley in the world right here at the Randi forums: Quote: but how do you know Satan didn't plant other gods, saviors and demons in history? YOU DON'T Every argument made by anti-God people are based on naturalistic presuppositions and Satan could very well be behind these presuppositions. Think about it. Your precious ''rational and predictable world'' may just be an illusion created by God's enemy. --1inChrist

28th September 2004, 05:20 AM	#1
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Justifying the eternal Hellfire. People always ask ''If God is loving, why does He send people to tell knowing before He created them that their eternal home would be the Lake of Fire?'' Simple. Yes God knew some of His creations would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell but He also knew that some of His creations would choose to bathe in the Glory of Him. Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? If He decided not to create humans because some would choose evil, that means evil would beat God! If God decides not to do something because of evil that means God has been defeated by evil and that cannot happen. He HAD to create us or evil would of defeated God. Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape.

28th September 2004, 05:40 AM	#2
Ossai Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,459	1inChrist Quote: Why reject Him and the Truth found in His Word? Yes the Lake of fire is a terrible place of horror, torture and pain but He gives us a chance to escape. Which version of your god are you talking about? If itâ€™s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions. If you want to limit your god and claim that humanâ€™s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god. Quote: Should He not create us because some of us choose to reject Him? How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place? Ossai
Ossai Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,459	__________________ The other moral to be drawn from the story [of Job] is that if you lead a good virtuous life, God will urge Satan to kill your family for a bet. Perhaps you should try to sin a little now and then, just to keep your children safe. - Dr Adequate www.stopsylvia.com

28th September 2004, 06:06 AM	#3
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: Which version of your god are you talking about? Don't play that typical sceptical nonsense with me. You know very well which God I am talking about. I am talking about the one True God who's Word is contained in the Holy Bible. What other God condemns people to an eternal Hellfire? Stop trying to compare the one True God with those pagan idols. Quote: If itâ€™s the omni-god, then god could have indeed created everyone to know about and accept god, no exceptions. He did. Want to know His Word?The Holy Bible Quote: If you want to limit your god and claim that humanâ€™s have freewill, then you may have a case about god creating people and not interfering but then you have the added conundrum of people not knowing about god. They all know Him. They just choose to reject Him. How can you not know Him? I have been informing you all of the Truth of Christ. You have just chosen to reject this Truth. Quote: How can some people reject god when they have never been offered him in the first place? I'm telling you! You have two choices: #1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire. #2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved.

28th September 2004, 06:10 AM	#4
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,426	My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?" First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists. As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty. Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego?

28th September 2004, 06:11 AM	#5
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,426	Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist I'm telling you! You have two choices: #1: Reject His Word and suffer in the eternal Hellfire. #2: Accept the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross and spend eternity in Heaven with God, the Angels and the Saved. So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that.

28th September 2004, 06:57 AM	#11
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: My question on this situation is not "why create us if He knew we would not believe in Him", but rather, "Why punish anyone for not believing in Him?" The original parents decided to disobey the Lord which is why we are all destined to the eternal Hellfire. However, Jesus Christ who died on the Cross will give us eternal Salvation and all we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Quote: First, it isn't like God's existence is totally obvious. If it were totally obvious, people of both reason and faith would agree that God exists. It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists. Quote: As it is, there just isn't enough information. The decision on whether or not to believe might as well come down to a coin flip (or multiple coin flips given how many god-beliefs there are to choose from). It is the equivalent of saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 1000. Here are a thousand groups, each telling you it is a different number. Guess it or suffer in agony forever." It's like Russian Roulette in reverse, only one chamber is empty. I am right now telling you about the Lord and His plan of Salvation. You cannot claim on judgement day that you were never warned. Quote: Second, how vain is it on God's part to punish those who didn't randomly choose the "right" god-belief? "Believe in me, and only me, or I will go medieval on you." Does that make any sence whatsoever? What is the point, to boost God's ego? [/b] God gave you a choice. It's YOUR choice, not His. He gave you free will. I am telling you right now you have to choices. Follow the Lord or go to Hell. What is your desicion?

28th September 2004, 06:58 AM	#12
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: So you say. They guy down the street says something different, and the next guy after that. Other religions cannot be trusted as The Word warns of false prophets, idols and gods.

28th September 2004, 07:02 AM	#13
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: Bad logic. The question you posed was "why does god send people to Hell?", not "why does god create bad people?". What purpose is served by tormenting the bad ones for all eternity? Why not just cast them away? Or destroy them outright? Does god not have the power to do this? If he does, and chooses to torture them instead, then he is cruel and evil. There is no way to get around that conclusion. Torturing people, even bad people, is wrong. Besides, human beings have only finite power. Even if you believe in the naive notion of vengeance-as-justice that the Bible advocates, nothing a human being could do could ever make him deserving of infinite punishment. Even the most cruel and vile bastard the Earth has ever seen, would be getting infinitely more punishment than they could possibly deserve. I do not know why God has chosen what He has but I do not question God. If God does it, He has His reasons. Fact: God=Good. If God does it, it's good whether we humans agree or not. God can not do evil. Quote: Another flaw in your logic is the notion that only the evil ones go to hell. Unless your definition of "evil" is simply "anybody who doesn't accept Jesus", this makes no sense. According to the Bible, most who have ever lived are in Hell right now. This includes lots of good people who either never even heard of your god, or were not convinced by the idiotic arguments presented by his followers, and therefore did not believe. You are evil in the eyes of God if you reject Him and live a life of sin and are a servant to the Beast. Quote: No, he gives a chance to avoid it, but only if we are lucky enough to hear about it, and gullible enough to believe what we have heard with no evidence to back it up. There is no escape once you are there. Not according to your Bible. You have heard about His Word. Gullible? Is it Gullible to accept Christ as your Savior? No. Is it Gullible to want to go to Heaven and not Hell? No.

28th September 2004, 07:04 AM	#15
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340	Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist It is obvious. Biblical prophecy proves God exists. Funny, the Bible also disproves itself several times. Here's some failed/erroneous/questionable prophecies related to Matthew. And that's just one book.
DaveW Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 340

28th September 2004, 07:05 AM	#16
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Your excuse for your god's regime of eternal torture boils down to 'my god is a petulant child, deal with it.' Well, I'm not dealing. I'll take torture before I kowtow to someone's ego trip.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:06 AM	#17
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: Isn't your God supposed to be just? He is Just. Quote: What is just about infinite punishment for a finite crime? In the eyes of God ONE sin is worth an eternity of suffering. Sin is BAD BAD BAD. Sin in God's eyes is horrific and NOT tolerated. Quote: I can understand a God that wants to be popular, but why not just leave people alone if they don't want to play. Why does he need to torture them. Doesn't sound like anyone I want to know. Sorry but we humans don't make the rules. God does. Quote: What kind of person are you, that you think such behaviour is justified? Whatever God does is Just. If you disagree it's YOUR opinion that is false, not God's.

28th September 2004, 07:07 AM	#18
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: This hell you talk about. How do you make people suffer in hell? Torture applies pain to a physical body. In hell, people arrive only as souls. How do you make an immortal soul suffer? God can do anything.

28th September 2004, 07:10 AM	#19
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist God can do anything. Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we?
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:10 AM	#20
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Why does God need his creations to "bathe" in his "glory"? He desires a fan club? And for not joining you will be tortured forever? Sounds like God has a Streisand complex. God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. Sadly, the original parents turned away from Him which damned all us to the Hellfire. Quote: So, God is playing some sort of game? Why? If he's all-powerful, he can win any time he wants to. Clearly, he wants the fun of gambling, and if that means sending billions into eternal torment he's okay with that. Remember, he's all-powerful. He could stop playing and rescue the missing pieces whenever he chooses. The torment is also of his devising. God doesn't gamble. He knows all. Past, present, future and eternity. Quote: No wonder he needs to threaten people with an eternity of torment in order to get some enrollment into his fan club! [/b] He doesn't threaten anyone. He lays out the facts: Follow my commands or go to Hell.

28th September 2004, 07:11 AM	#21
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:12 AM	#22
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: Comforting to know that God brings all the might of ominpotence to bear on the problem of how to torture people. We wouldn't want him to do a sloppy job, now, would we? [/b] Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God.

28th September 2004, 07:13 AM	#24
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard. Why is it sad?

28th September 2004, 07:14 AM	#25
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist Why try and fight an omnipotent being? You can never win, not even with Satan on your side. Yes, Satan is a very powerful demon but even he and his army of Angels cannot compare to the power of God. A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight. B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:15 AM	#26
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: Why do YOU think it is O.K. for any being to torture someone? God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us.

28th September 2004, 07:16 AM	#27
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,062	Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist God created us because He wanted us to praise and love Him. Quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas That may be the single saddest thing I've ever heard. I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell.
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

28th September 2004, 07:16 AM	#28
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist Why is it sad? You don't find it sad that lonely ol' God had to create us to keep Him company and feed His ego? Like we're some perverse little deific fantasy?
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:17 AM	#29
Gastric ReFlux Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 257	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by Lisa Simpson I don't know. I find it vaguely amusing. The idea of a god, completely powerful, yet so insecure he has to create his own fanclub. Then give the "fans" free will, so if they don't keep playing in the fanclub, they go to hell. That doesn't inspire you to worship? Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe?
	__________________ Coolest smiley in the world right here at the Randi forums: Quote: but how do you know Satan didn't plant other gods, saviors and demons in history? YOU DON'T Every argument made by anti-God people are based on naturalistic presuppositions and Satan could very well be behind these presuppositions. Think about it. Your precious ''rational and predictable world'' may just be an illusion created by God's enemy. --1inChrist

28th September 2004, 07:17 AM	#30
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: A. There is no such omnipotent being for me to fight. Yes there is. Quote: B. Refer to the post previous to the one you quote, in which I call your God a petulant child, and imply that if He exists as you describe Him, He is utterly unworthy of worship. Furthermore, He is the most contemptible being in the universe. Fine. Choose to reject Him because you disagree with His actions. Just be prepared to face the consequences of your choice in the End.

28th September 2004, 07:19 AM	#31
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux That doesn't inspire you to worship? Geeze, what does it take people for you to believe? Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

28th September 2004, 07:20 AM	#33
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Free Chee-tos would do it for me. But I hear heaven only stocks generic snacks. Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS.

28th September 2004, 07:21 AM	#35
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist God is the creator and destroyer of life. We exist because of His will and we will cease to exist because of His will. He is the master, creator and God of all mankind. He can do what He wishes with us as He created us. And this is your idea of love?
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

28th September 2004, 07:22 AM	#36
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,292	God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too. There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding.
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

28th September 2004, 07:23 AM	#37
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: And this is your idea of love? My idea of love is a God who creates us and gives us a chance to recieve a reward of eternal happiness in Heaven. All we have to do is follow Him and reject Satan.

28th September 2004, 07:24 AM	#38
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,062	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Justifying the eternal Hellfire. Quote: Originally posted by 1inChrist Heaven is said to be LUXURIOUS. Perhaps, but it would also be (theoretically) filled with the very same narrow-minded bigots I can't stand in life. Why would I want that for eternity?
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

28th September 2004, 07:24 AM	#40
1inChrist Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,362	Quote: God used to exist but I destroyed him during a duel. It was a hard fight but I was better prepared. I also destroyed Hell. I wanted to spare Paradise, but I thought "what the Hell" and I destroyed that too. You cannot destroy God for He is eternal and omnipotent. Quote: There is no God anymore. Just look around, you will see no signs of him. I'm looking for his son right now, but I think he's hiding. Yes He is. You just put your hands over your ears and say ''There is no God. There is no God. There is no God. There is no God.'' However rejecting and ignoring Him won't make Him magically go away.