Colette, psychics and WWI

[kittynh]

I'm reading a biography of Colette. She spent much of WWI in Paris and near the front visiting her husband. The book says that so many men died during the fighting that the French government made "contacting the dead" against the law. It seems that too many people were being taken advantage of, and were losing so much money.


There is a part of me that wishes this had been true in England, and maybe they would have arrested Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's woo woo wife!

But, what do people think? There is the feeling that is people are stupid enough to fall for this stuff, they don't need to be protected from it. Should there be such a law now? I ask because I become more involved in the skeptic movement after a friend lost almost all her savings to a psychic. She then commited suicide, thinking she was joining her dead son. She had run out of money to give the psychic so she could visit with her "son" and was desperate to keep in contact.

Still, when I tried to explain this guy was a fake, she didn't get it.

Like the widows and families of WWI, do the grieving people of today need protection?

[geni]

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Originally posted by kittynh
There is a part of me that wishes this had been true in England, and maybe they would have arrested Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's woo woo wife!

Didn't need it we still had the anti wichcraft laws on the sbooks. We used them in wwII.

[Open Mind]

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh

Should there be such a law now? I ask because I become more involved in the skeptic movement after a friend lost almost all her savings to a psychic. She then commited suicide, thinking she was joining her dead son. She had run out of money to give the psychic so she could visit with her "son" and was desperate to keep in contact.

Still, when I tried to explain this guy was a fake, she didn't get it.

Like the widows and families of WWI, do the grieving people of today need protection?

Sorry to hear about that tragedy Kitty.

The law already exists, since 1950s in the UK, it's called the 'Fraudulent Mediums Act' ...... you can report a psychic in the UK, provide evidence and the police should take action. Before this it was the ‘witchcraft act’ and before that psychics were killed, burnt etc.

People who think PSI might exist (I do) also support the 'fraudulent mediums act' too. Evidence of course is needed to prove they are cheating..

(Equally any religion could be accused of making life after death pleasant and encouraging suicide. So it's a complex issue, for example relgions genrally do not support euthanasia wheras some non religions groups appear to do so)

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She then commited suicide, thinking she was joining her dead son.

You might indeed have a strong case against this psychic. Most psychics/ mediums (at least regulated ones within spiritualism) warn against suicide, euthanasia, etc. ... they believe the sudden, unnatural death often prevents the spirit from going though the tunnel of light to another solid dimension, the spirit remains trapped between in a state of dream like confusion. 'earth bound spirit' ...... which they claim can lead to hauntings, possessions, etc. ...... the vast majority of psychics are warning not just against suicide but against capital punishment for the same reason. They also oppose suicide for other consequences (karma like)

... of course there needs to be evidence of this (and there is a mass of anecdotal literature to support earth bound spirit claims) but no meaningful controlled scientific evidence (not easy to do a controlled trial on this claim of course)

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Didn't need it we still had the anti wichcraft laws on the sbooks. We used them in wwII.

Yeah the witchcraft act was used in WW2 against Helen Duncan in 1943 (interesting case – but not that clear cut). Winston Chruchill publicly in a letter called it 'tomfoolery' but if I remember correrctly went to visit her in prison (at that time, any politician would have had to been diplomatic to avoid Christian outrage) It seems fairly clear elsewhere Chruchill had more than a passing interest in the paranormal, and some report at least 2 psychics were entering No.10 during WW2, etc. . Churchill abolished the 'witchcraft act' in 1951 it became the 'fraudulent mediums act'.

[Azrael 5]

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People who think PSI might exist (I do) also support the 'fraudulent mediums act' too. Evidence of course is needed to prove they are cheating..

Evidence is also needed to prove they are real,and there hasnt been any of that.

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Chruchill had more than a passing interest in the paranormal, and some report at least 2 psychics were entering No.10 during WW2, etc

Hitler had a strong interest in the paranormal also,having his own personal clairvoyant Hanussen.It didnt take much to fool Churchill,a magician showed him a rather simple card trick called Out Of This World;so a psychic would have had no trouble.Intersting that being fooled by psychics has no reflection on intelligence or status.

[sophia8]

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Originally posted by Open Mind

Yeah the witchcraft act was used in WW2 against Helen Duncan in 1943 (interesting case – but not that clear cut). Winston Chruchill publicly in a letter called it 'tomfoolery' but if I remember correrctly went to visit her in prison (at that time, any politician would have had to been diplomatic to avoid Christian outrage) It seems fairly clear elsewhere Chruchill had more than a passing interest in the paranormal, and some report at least 2 psychics were entering No.10 during WW2, etc. . Churchill abolished the 'witchcraft act' in 1951 it became the 'fraudulent mediums act'.

There's been quite a bit of research on the Helen Duncan case. And it was indeed far from clear-cut.
She twice told relatives that their loved ones had died on board Navy frigates that had been sunk a few days beforehand, before the news had been released. However, both times, the 'messages' came in seances held in Portsmouth, which was (and still is) a big Navy town; keeping news of downed ships completely secret would have been impossible in such a place. So it was obvious to the police and security services at the time (late in the War) that Duncan was getting her information from a Navy source who shouldn't have been talking.
Duncan was a professional medium - she was the sole support of several children and a parasitical alcoholic husband - so she needed to get results every time, to keep the paying punters flocking to her meetings. It should be no surprise to anyone that she sometimes resorted to cheating (she had already been caught out in cheating some years before).
The section of the Witchcraft act that dealt with fake mediums was used against her, mainly to shut her up before she spilled any more classified information.
As for Churchill visiting her in prison - there is no evidence for that.

[Open Mind]

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As for Churchill visiting her in prison - there is no evidence for that.

Could be, I don't know ..........according to ……….…

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During her time in jail, Helen Duncan received many visitors, including Winston Churchill. The Prime Minister was known to have spiritualist sympathies. What Churchill said on these
occasions to Helen is unknown, but one of his first acts when he was re-elected to power in 1951 was to repeal the Witchcraft Act.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottis...s_modern.shtml

But I don’t know where they got that information from.

[Garvarn]

It seems every war has its Thenadiers...

Very sorry about your friend, Kitty. Harry Houdini used to collect clips about tragedies such as the one you refer to. He had hundreds of them, maybe even thousands. Anyone who regards psychics as harmless should check again...

Best regards,
Chateaubriand

[kittynh]

The whole point for this psychic was to get someone "hooked" on the visits. Give some information, but not enough for closure. Keep them coming back for more. When the money runs out though, it's like losing your loved one all over again.

The psychic actually refunded a lot of the money. I had gone to see the psychic with the family (I had also attended some of the "visits" in an effort to try to help the family convince my friend that this man was a fraud). At first I thought maybe he had refunded a lot of the money because he was at least somewhat decent. I didn't know that he wanted the family to sign a paper saying they would keep quiet about the whole thing. Then the psychic went on to the big time. I think he gave up pulling this sort of stunt (or at least I hope so). At the very least, this would have been very bad press.

[Garvarn]

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
The whole point for this psychic was to get someone "hooked" on the visits. Give some information, but not enough for closure. Keep them coming back for more. When the money runs out though, it's like losing your loved one all over again.

The psychic actually refunded a lot of the money. I had gone to see the psychic with the family (I had also attended some of the "visits" in an effort to try to help the family convince my friend that this man was a fraud). At first I thought maybe he had refunded a lot of the money because he was at least somewhat decent. I didn't know that he wanted the family to sign a paper saying they would keep quiet about the whole thing. Then the psychic went on to the big time. I think he gave up pulling this sort of stunt (or at least I hope so). At the very least, this would have been very bad press.

So this matter never became public?

Best regards,
Chateaubriand

[kittynh]

I'm trying to respect the family, plus I don't know if this loser would sue me. He's now become pretty well known. I've heard he had to clean up his act once he signed a deal to be more well known. I knew him as a NY celebrity type. The kind of guy rich people invite to their parties. He's contact your aunt after cocktails.

But they signed the paper. I will only say (though people on Pal talk know this jerk because hey, I didn't sign any paper!) that when his tv show was dropped I was very very very happy.

Still thousands believe in this jerk. Including some of my friends, that still claim he DID contact my friends son. I always joke I hope there IS an afterlife as these guys are going to have to do a lot of explaining. Basically, this guy has to NOT believe in life after death - though that would be so insulting to all my atheist friends that would never ever stoop so low. It's just one of those things, there is no way he could justify his actions, and there is no way I could ever understand what would cause someone to do what he has and is doing. Money? There just can't be enough money in the world to justify this, or even explain it.

[LostAngeles]

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
I'm trying to respect the family, plus I don't know if this loser would sue me. He's now become pretty well known. I've heard he had to clean up his act once he signed a deal to be more well known. I knew him as a NY celebrity type. The kind of guy rich people invite to their parties. He's contact your aunt after cocktails.

But they signed the paper. I will only say (though people on Pal talk know this jerk because hey, I didn't sign any paper!) that when his tv show was dropped I was very very very happy.

Still thousands believe in this jerk. Including some of my friends, that still claim he DID contact my friends son. I always joke I hope there IS an afterlife as these guys are going to have to do a lot of explaining. Basically, this guy has to NOT believe in life after death - though that would be so insulting to all my atheist friends that would never ever stoop so low. It's just one of those things, there is no way he could justify his actions, and there is no way I could ever understand what would cause someone to do what he has and is doing. Money? There just can't be enough money in the world to justify this, or even explain it.

Now that my initial shock has worn off, basically this person took all of her money, making her unable to "contact" her son, thusly driving her to suicide?

I'd explain it, but it would cause enough violations of rule #8 to get me banned about five times over.

There is clearly something wrong with some people.

[Garvarn]

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
I'm trying to respect the family, plus I don't know if this loser would sue me. He's now become pretty well known. I've heard he had to clean up his act once he signed a deal to be more well known. I knew him as a NY celebrity type. The kind of guy rich people invite to their parties. He's contact your aunt after cocktails.

But they signed the paper. I will only say (though people on Pal talk know this jerk because hey, I didn't sign any paper!) that when his tv show was dropped I was very very very happy.

Still thousands believe in this jerk. Including some of my friends, that still claim he DID contact my friends son. I always joke I hope there IS an afterlife as these guys are going to have to do a lot of explaining. Basically, this guy has to NOT believe in life after death - though that would be so insulting to all my atheist friends that would never ever stoop so low. It's just one of those things, there is no way he could justify his actions, and there is no way I could ever understand what would cause someone to do what he has and is doing. Money? There just can't be enough money in the world to justify this, or even explain it.

Sorry for bugging you about this, Kitty, but don't you think that this is something that should be exposed to the public? Regardless if your friend's family feel he did right by them, he continued to scam other people. Why show mercy when he clearly showed none?

Best regards,
Chateaubriand

[kittynh]

I let people know via JREF and in person. I don't post his name as most people can figure it out and let's face it, Uri Geller has taught these people a thing or two about lawyers and lawsuits. what IS shocking is that this is not uncommon. A lot of skeptics believe that people that fall for this psychic stuff are a little mentally unbalanced to begin with. I would say about my friend Pat that she was emotionally depressed after her sons death. I think that if she had joined a support group, or gone to therapy to deal with the death and accept it she would still be alive. However, that is just my opinion.

I do share her story, and I hope that skeptics are just aware that psychics do so much harm. A psychic does not make someone fell better about a loved one dying. One of Pat's complaints was that her son was "upset" with her, as he sometimes did not come through "clearly". I suspect the psychic would use that as an excuse for a poor performance. Can I prove that her son did not come through? No.

[Open Mind]

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Originally posted by kittynh
I let people know via JREF and in person. I don't post his name as most people can figure it out and let's face it

I can’t, can you give me clue? What sort of psychic is he? Is he a ‘medium’ the term usually used for someone who claims dead people contact him? Or is he more the fortune telling type psychic who reads people’s personalities and might use tarot, palmistry, astrology, etc. Mediums generally have to follow regulations (e.g.. codes of conduct in spiritualism, etc.) and charge small amounts of money (some just travel expenses) unless very famous ……. Psychics on the other hand are generally trying to make a business out of it.

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I would say about my friend Pat that she was emotionally depressed after her sons death. I think that if she had joined a support group, or gone to therapy to deal with the death and accept it she would still be alive. However, that is just my opinion.

People do commit suicide even after seeing counselors – psychologists – psychiatrists - doctors etc. I don't think there is evidence to say psychics increase suicides, if that was the case I think some CSICOP psychologists would be extremely keen to present such data.

However even for psychologists/psychiatrists it might open an uncomfortable debate on how many people commit suicide on medications. Some trials showed antidepressants increased suicide. For example ……
http://kdka.com/health/health_story_202161159.html
Was this lady on antidepressants?

I’m sure many people in here are atheists and probably feel sure the world would be a better place if others shared their own beliefs of no afterlife, are keen to say there is no evidence and it’s all self deception. ……but if it is just self deceptions, our evolution has written rather strongly within us that we feel more than a body. The ‘near death experience’ is an interesting example, very young children have had NDEs, (even some atheists have had NDE). if these are just our brains again fooling ourselves we are more than a body, then our survival and evolution might have benefited in someway from having such beliefs.

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I do share her story, and I hope that skeptics are just aware that psychics do so much harm. A psychic does not make someone fell better about a loved one dying.

Sorry but I disagree, some might do harm. Some psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, priests, atheists, ministers, humanists, lawyers, politicians, etc. also do harm …….. the problem is human dishonesty, a willingness to manipulate or cheat for self gain. …… it probably has little or nothing to do with a afterlife belief system or trying to contact an afterlife.

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One of Pat's complaints was that her son was "upset" with her, as he sometimes did not come through "clearly". I suspect the psychic would use that as an excuse for a poor performance.

I certainly do agree most psychics are keen to appear more psychic than they are , it’s part of our culture today where most people are impressed by displays of confidence and unimpressed by the more honest display of less certainty and confidence. This is a potential problem not just amongst psychics, etc. but it is also a potential problem even amongst dogmatic sceptics whose confident opinions are impressive to others and other place faith upon them.

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Can I prove that her son did not come through? No.

I’d like to psychics tested too but not by the CSICOP organization or their most prominent members, in my opinion their firm beliefs in psychologists explanations are biased against PSI. We need some independent neutral testing of psychics in a properly controlled conditions looking for weak PSI effects over a long term trial. I personally think most psychics would be found out to be not psychic to a meaningful degree or anywhere near what they have convinced themselves to believe ….. however I also think a small number would be found to be beating the odds of cold reading consistently, not every time in a remarkable way, just overall. …… this small effect would have major consequences, if PSI is found and acknowledged it would probably rewrite some area of physics.

And if PSI is eventually proven, should people then put great faith in psychics? No, probably none are anywhere near accurate enough to do that. I also see fortune teller type psychics advertising they are ‘95%’ accurate I’d like to see the ‘fraudulent mediums act’ brought into operation too when such unproven claims of accuracy are made..