Another nice thread at Hpathy

Badly Shaved Monkey · 31st October 2004, 05:35 AM

http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//...2&KW=chelation

Apparently Rolfe's been up to her old tricks there.

I also like the recommendation of chelation therapy. As usual, in the parallel universe they inhabit, if sensible people say something is rubbish then they have to believe it.

But, what's this? Divina says something sensible!!!!

"3._Six years ago an extremely well know alternative nutritionist was diagnosed with cancer here in Canada, near where_I live._ She made a fortune all her life promoting the ideas of vegetarianism, nutritional supplement use, active living, right livelihood, the whole kit and caboodle currently being touted as "preventative medicine"._ When she was diagnosed with the CA it was highly metastatized, and she was in trouble._ She then tried every kind of raw food organic food diet she could think of--every herbal treatment she could find...and she still died._ Yes, died. Despite years and years of "doing what all of us should be doing" to stave off disease._

So there are no guarantees._ Wait:_ in fact there is only one guarantee...and that is that we all die some day._"

So, all she has to do now is buy a mirror annd look into it.

Divina again.

"4._ If you think Chris Gillen has not studied homeopathy, you're hideously mistaken._ That woman knows what she's talking about, she's well aware of what she's doing as a practitioner, and she's done more scholarly research using primary source materials of all kinds than almost anyone else_I've had the pleasure to meet in this profession."

Now remember, Divina is Nancy Siciliana, whose only higher education is a degree in linguistics. So 'research' for her means reading "primary source materials". So, someone who has the temerity to take charge of people's health uses the readng of old books to be the benchmark of how to conduct research. "Hello, Nancy. Real World here. Maybe you should come and look at me sometime".

And finally, I still want my money

"As for trolls, they have their place in the scheme of things too._I can't fly a plane, Because I NEVER LEARNT HOW TO. I don't run round telling any one who will listen that Flying_is impossible. The earth goes round the sun, The earth is NOT flat, and fatuous arguments as to placebo effects are total drivel, perpetuated by _professional tricksters who are paid to pull the wool over_the eyes of the blind. I suppose it pays more than kiddy birthday parties."

Benguin. Have you been stashing away that Big Pharma slush money and not sharing it like we agreed? I'm going to complain to Randi.

Benguin · 31st October 2004, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

"As for trolls, they have their place in the scheme of things too._I can't fly a plane, Because I NEVER LEARNT HOW TO. I don't run round telling any one who will listen that Flying_is impossible. The earth goes round the sun, The earth is NOT flat, and fatuous arguments as to placebo effects are total drivel, perpetuated by _professional tricksters who are paid to pull the wool over_the eyes of the blind. I suppose it pays more than kiddy birthday parties."

Benguin. Have you been stashing away that Big Pharma slush money and not sharing it like we agreed? I'm going to complain to Randi.

Flight is impossible. It's a big conspiracy by the government to kid us that they are not really having secret meetings with aliens about surpressing the truth about homeopathy.

Jeez, even I can google a de-bunk to that pathetic argument from ignorance. I think it's a dummies stab at absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Invisible pink unicorns are prodding my elbow again.

Rolfe · 31st October 2004, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//...2&KW=chelation

Apparently Rolfe's been up to her old tricks there.

Hey, what's that got to do with me? I haven't been near H'pathy since we got Sarah-the-cat on to Felimazole, and right now it's Coghill-scalp that excites my hunting instinct.

Must have been some other guys.

Rolfe.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 31st October 2004, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Hey, what's that got to do with me? I haven't been near H'pathy since we got Sarah-the-cat on to Felimazole, and right now it's Coghill-scalp that excites my hunting instinct.

Must have been some other guys.

Rolfe.

Ahem,

I'll double the smileys if that helps.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 31st October 2004, 07:45 AM

BINGO!

I think I win Â£10 for this one.

From the thread I linked to

"This is where homeopathy can help.It helps even the dying patient,to die honorably,and peacefully"

Well, that keeps their ambitions nice and modest. "Just lie there and die sucking on this lovely sugar tablet"

Rolfe · 31st October 2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Ahem,

I'll double the smileys if that helps.

You're losing me. I need you to draw me a picture. PM if you like.

Rolfe.

PS. OK, I read further down the thread. They couldn't find their arses in broad daylight with both hands, could they?

Rolfe · 31st October 2004, 11:28 AM

Actually, I use EDTA every day.

Why should I take issue with them?

In fact, who did I see in Vet Times a few weeks ago sticking up for the right to use EDTA therapeutically? Yours faithfully, Badly Shaved Monkey, wasn't it?

Anyway, if they want to fill their bodies up with harsh and dangerous chemicals just because somebody has labelled it "alternative", why should we care?

Rolfe.

(Sorry about this, there are two in-jokes here about using EDTA, neither of which situation has the remotest connection with what the woos are up to.)

Capsid · 31st October 2004, 12:29 PM

Rolfe, is your EDTA in the form of a nice cup of tea? See this experiment.

Quote:

For three days, half the experimental group will eat two meals a day of local Lake Winnipeg fish washed down with six cups of black tea. The other half will eat the fish but drink no tea. Participants will provide blood samples for mercury level testing at the beginning and end of the conference. (Dr. Lucotte stresses that the Lake Winnipeg fish were chosen for the experiment only because COMERN encourages the eating of local foods and that these fish contain only average amounts of mercury.)

I love the way that they are going to test themselves, but I guess eating fish and drinking tea is not so bad.

If only the homoeopaths would get together and do a study to show the difference between water and homoeopathic water.

Rolfe · 31st October 2004, 01:24 PM

No, much more mundane than that!

Rolfe.

geni · 31st October 2004, 01:38 PM

Chealting agenst havequite a long histry in legit medcine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy

(an article that turn out supprisingly well considering it got listed for deletion at on point)

Rolfe · 31st October 2004, 03:18 PM

Oh, sure. Heavy metal poisoning. The only way to go.

Actually, though, that's not what I was referring to above. I use EDTA daily because I run a haematology lab, and EDTA is the standard in vitro anticoagulant for haematology samples. It works by chelating the calcium in the sample, and without calcium, the cascade coagulation mechanism can't work.

Given that lot, the very idea of letting someone inject you with EDTA unless you were in the last stages of lead poisoning, is something I really can't fathom. I thought these people were against putting harsh and poisonous chemicals into their bodies? Well, this is pretty harsh and potentially pretty poisonous!

EDTA is also an effective antibacterial. I think it destroys bacterial cell walls, though Prester John might be able to elaborate on this. Anyway, there is a product on the market, EDTA-tris, which appears to be effective in potentiating topical antibiotics in Pseudomonas infections in dogs' ears. This is topical use, of course, it isn't given parenterally. BSM was going on about it (in fact I was too) because it doesn't have a product licence and for some reason the VMD were getting heavier about vets using this than they ever are about the use of equally unlicensed magic sugar pills.

I just don't understand these woos at all.

Rolfe.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 1st November 2004, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
This is topical use, of course, it isn't given parenterally.

Ahem...it is.

It isn't given systemically.

Rolfe · 1st November 2004, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Ahem...it is.

It isn't given systemically.

OK. Pedant.

Rolfe.

Eos of the Eons · 28th November 2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

EDTA isnâ€™t totally safe as a drug. Thereâ€™s a real danger of kidney failure. (renal tubular necrosis). EDTA can also cause bone marrow depression, shock, low blood pressure (hypotension), convulsions, disturbances of regular heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmias), allergic-type reactions and respiratory arrest.

In fact, a number of deaths in the United States have been linked with chelation therapy.

The woos like to recommend this for kids to treat autism etc, believing that vaccines have poisoned them with heavy metals. Not only is this claim blatantly untrue, they are putting the childrens' lives at risk in order to make money from their false claims with a dangerous treatment.

Also, this is not a treatment for heart disease as some woos claim.
http://216.185.112.5/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843

I'm sure many here know this, but I have found this site most informative, and finally understand what exactly the woo logic is behind this "treatment". An unsupported hypothesis that has gone unproven and even found to be false for heart disease treatment.

Quote:

In the 1960s scientists started a small-scale study involving 30 patients. However, after two patients died and the others showed no signs of improvement, it was stopped.

2 out of 30 died. Bad odds. Not sure of the death rate of children exposed to this therapy.

More links half way down this page: http://biochemistry.louisville.edu/e...n/CancMisc.htm

31st October 2004, 05:35 AM	#1
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Another nice thread at Hpathy http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//...2&KW=chelation Apparently Rolfe's been up to her old tricks there. I also like the recommendation of chelation therapy. As usual, in the parallel universe they inhabit, if sensible people say something is rubbish then they have to believe it. But, what's this? Divina says something sensible!!!! "3._Six years ago an extremely well know alternative nutritionist was diagnosed with cancer here in Canada, near where_I live._ She made a fortune all her life promoting the ideas of vegetarianism, nutritional supplement use, active living, right livelihood, the whole kit and caboodle currently being touted as "preventative medicine"._ When she was diagnosed with the CA it was highly metastatized, and she was in trouble._ She then tried every kind of raw food organic food diet she could think of--every herbal treatment she could find...and she still died._ Yes, died. Despite years and years of "doing what all of us should be doing" to stave off disease._ So there are no guarantees._ Wait:_ in fact there is only one guarantee...and that is that we all die some day._" So, all she has to do now is buy a mirror annd look into it. Divina again. "4._ If you think Chris Gillen has not studied homeopathy, you're hideously mistaken._ That woman knows what she's talking about, she's well aware of what she's doing as a practitioner, and she's done more scholarly research using primary source materials of all kinds than almost anyone else_I've had the pleasure to meet in this profession." Now remember, Divina is Nancy Siciliana, whose only higher education is a degree in linguistics. So 'research' for her means reading "primary source materials". So, someone who has the temerity to take charge of people's health uses the readng of old books to be the benchmark of how to conduct research. "Hello, Nancy. Real World here. Maybe you should come and look at me sometime". And finally, I still want my money "As for trolls, they have their place in the scheme of things too._I can't fly a plane, Because I NEVER LEARNT HOW TO. I don't run round telling any one who will listen that Flying_is impossible. The earth goes round the sun, The earth is NOT flat, and fatuous arguments as to placebo effects are total drivel, perpetuated by _professional tricksters who are paid to pull the wool over_the eyes of the blind. I suppose it pays more than kiddy birthday parties." Benguin. Have you been stashing away that Big Pharma slush money and not sharing it like we agreed? I'm going to complain to Randi.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

31st October 2004, 06:15 AM	#2
Benguin Too Chilled For The Anti-Homeopathy Illuminati Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,902	Re: Another nice thread at Hpathy Quote: Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey "As for trolls, they have their place in the scheme of things too._I can't fly a plane, Because I NEVER LEARNT HOW TO. I don't run round telling any one who will listen that Flying_is impossible. The earth goes round the sun, The earth is NOT flat, and fatuous arguments as to placebo effects are total drivel, perpetuated by _professional tricksters who are paid to pull the wool over_the eyes of the blind. I suppose it pays more than kiddy birthday parties." Benguin. Have you been stashing away that Big Pharma slush money and not sharing it like we agreed? I'm going to complain to Randi. Flight is impossible. It's a big conspiracy by the government to kid us that they are not really having secret meetings with aliens about surpressing the truth about homeopathy. Jeez, even I can google a de-bunk to that pathetic argument from ignorance. I think it's a dummies stab at absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Invisible pink unicorns are prodding my elbow again.
	__________________ It has been said cats have nine lives which, if true, makes them great candidates for experimentation. 100,000 medical doctors say go read this before quoting their articles. Probably. Voltaire "Atheism - the vice of a few intelligent people"

31st October 2004, 06:48 AM	#3
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Re: Another nice thread at Hpathy Quote: Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey http://homeopathyforums.hpathy.com//...2&KW=chelation Apparently Rolfe's been up to her old tricks there. Hey, what's that got to do with me? I haven't been near H'pathy since we got Sarah-the-cat on to Felimazole, and right now it's Coghill-scalp that excites my hunting instinct. Must have been some other guys. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

31st October 2004, 07:36 AM	#4
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Re: Re: Another nice thread at Hpathy Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Hey, what's that got to do with me? I haven't been near H'pathy since we got Sarah-the-cat on to Felimazole, and right now it's Coghill-scalp that excites my hunting instinct. Must have been some other guys. Rolfe. Ahem, I'll double the smileys if that helps.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

31st October 2004, 07:45 AM	#5
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	BINGO! I think I win Â£10 for this one. From the thread I linked to "This is where homeopathy can help.It helps even the dying patient,to die honorably,and peacefully" Well, that keeps their ambitions nice and modest. "Just lie there and die sucking on this lovely sugar tablet"
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

31st October 2004, 11:19 AM	#6
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Re: Re: Re: Another nice thread at Hpathy Quote: Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey Ahem, I'll double the smileys if that helps. You're losing me. I need you to draw me a picture. PM if you like. Rolfe. PS. OK, I read further down the thread. They couldn't find their arses in broad daylight with both hands, could they?
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

31st October 2004, 11:28 AM	#7
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Actually, I use EDTA every day. Why should I take issue with them? In fact, who did I see in Vet Times a few weeks ago sticking up for the right to use EDTA therapeutically? Yours faithfully, Badly Shaved Monkey, wasn't it? Anyway, if they want to fill their bodies up with harsh and dangerous chemicals just because somebody has labelled it "alternative", why should we care? Rolfe. (Sorry about this, there are two in-jokes here about using EDTA, neither of which situation has the remotest connection with what the woos are up to.)
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

31st October 2004, 12:29 PM	#8
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506	Rolfe, is your EDTA in the form of a nice cup of tea? See this experiment. Quote: For three days, half the experimental group will eat two meals a day of local Lake Winnipeg fish washed down with six cups of black tea. The other half will eat the fish but drink no tea. Participants will provide blood samples for mercury level testing at the beginning and end of the conference. (Dr. Lucotte stresses that the Lake Winnipeg fish were chosen for the experiment only because COMERN encourages the eating of local foods and that these fish contain only average amounts of mercury.) I love the way that they are going to test themselves, but I guess eating fish and drinking tea is not so bad. If only the homoeopaths would get together and do a study to show the difference between water and homoeopathic water.
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506

31st October 2004, 01:24 PM	#9
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	No, much more mundane than that! Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

31st October 2004, 01:38 PM	#10
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,575	Chealting agenst havequite a long histry in legit medcine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy (an article that turn out supprisingly well considering it got listed for deletion at on point)

31st October 2004, 03:18 PM	#11
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Oh, sure. Heavy metal poisoning. The only way to go. Actually, though, that's not what I was referring to above. I use EDTA daily because I run a haematology lab, and EDTA is the standard in vitro anticoagulant for haematology samples. It works by chelating the calcium in the sample, and without calcium, the cascade coagulation mechanism can't work. Given that lot, the very idea of letting someone inject you with EDTA unless you were in the last stages of lead poisoning, is something I really can't fathom. I thought these people were against putting harsh and poisonous chemicals into their bodies? Well, this is pretty harsh and potentially pretty poisonous! EDTA is also an effective antibacterial. I think it destroys bacterial cell walls, though Prester John might be able to elaborate on this. Anyway, there is a product on the market, EDTA-tris, which appears to be effective in potentiating topical antibiotics in Pseudomonas infections in dogs' ears. This is topical use, of course, it isn't given parenterally. BSM was going on about it (in fact I was too) because it doesn't have a product licence and for some reason the VMD were getting heavier about vets using this than they ever are about the use of equally unlicensed magic sugar pills. I just don't understand these woos at all. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

1st November 2004, 12:05 AM	#12
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,262	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe This is topical use, of course, it isn't given parenterally. Ahem...it is. It isn't given systemically.
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

1st November 2004, 01:40 AM	#13
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Quote: Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey Ahem...it is. It isn't given systemically. OK. Pedant. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

28th November 2004, 09:14 AM	#14
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,894	Chelation, evlaluating risk/benefit Quote: EDTA isnâ€™t totally safe as a drug. Thereâ€™s a real danger of kidney failure. (renal tubular necrosis). EDTA can also cause bone marrow depression, shock, low blood pressure (hypotension), convulsions, disturbances of regular heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmias), allergic-type reactions and respiratory arrest. In fact, a number of deaths in the United States have been linked with chelation therapy. The woos like to recommend this for kids to treat autism etc, believing that vaccines have poisoned them with heavy metals. Not only is this claim blatantly untrue, they are putting the childrens' lives at risk in order to make money from their false claims with a dangerous treatment. Also, this is not a treatment for heart disease as some woos claim. http://216.185.112.5/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843 I'm sure many here know this, but I have found this site most informative, and finally understand what exactly the woo logic is behind this "treatment". An unsupported hypothesis that has gone unproven and even found to be false for heart disease treatment. Quote: In the 1960s scientists started a small-scale study involving 30 patients. However, after two patients died and the others showed no signs of improvement, it was stopped. 2 out of 30 died. Bad odds. Not sure of the death rate of children exposed to this therapy. More links half way down this page: http://biochemistry.louisville.edu/e...n/CancMisc.htm
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!