Young People Deserve to be Drafted.

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 06:01 AM

I heard these stats this morning.

Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17%
Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17%

Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them.

Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA"

Ed · 3rd November 2004, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I heard these stats this morning.

Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17%
Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17%

Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them.

Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA"

I'm with you on this one.

Jude · 3rd November 2004, 06:04 AM

I'm sure you already noticed, but the draft bill failed. Really though, I don't know what the heck is wrong with the kids. Voting isn't a big inconvenience.

Ed · 3rd November 2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jude
I'm sure you already noticed, but the draft bill failed. Really though, I don't know what the heck is wrong with the kids. Voting isn't a big inconvenience.

I sorta wonder about the parents. I mean, they nag about everything else, why not voting?

HarryKeogh · 3rd November 2004, 06:14 AM

part of me (the part that's really angry right now) says yeah, they deserve to get drafted, serves'em right.

but dying for a stupid war is too severe a civics lesson, I think.

(not that I think a draft is going to happen anyway)

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 3rd November 2004, 06:14 AM

I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote.

Ed · 3rd November 2004, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote.

They can fill sandbags for the Corps of Engineers. Gotta do something with that Philosophy Degree.

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote.

So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead??

Im sure the military would rather not draft but there comes a point when they need too. Lets face it, Iraq requires alot of groudn troops. And with Iran getting lippy, who knows whats on the horizon.

TragicMonkey · 3rd November 2004, 06:20 AM

I think most people have to grow up a little before they appreciate the real life impact of politics. For some reason, American adolescence seems to extend into the early twenties these days. I used to work with several twenty-year-olds. They were very knowledgable about celebrities, but couldn't find Afghanistan on a map during the whole US versus Taliban thing.

It makes me feel very old. And angry.

Kodiak · 3rd November 2004, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead??

Im sure the military would rather not draft but there comes a point when they need too. Lets face it, Iraq requires alot of groudn troops. And with Iran getting lippy, who knows whats on the horizon.

Oh brother...

Fewer than 2000 dead after a successful invasion and government overthrow and a continuing occupation is "marching troops to their deaths"?!?!

Read a little military history for some comparisons. I suggest you start by checking out some of the enemy's attacks against US troops during the Korean conflict...

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 3rd November 2004, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead??

That's not the only option.

Kodiak · 3rd November 2004, 06:28 AM

I'd rather someone not vote at all than have them vote with ignorance and apathy...

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 06:34 AM

The "marching" comment was in responce to the "ruin the military" comment. I was talking about drafts in general not specifcally whats going on in Iraq.

Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past?

If the military is so well stocked why do we have all this stop loss, tours extension by all these reservists, and reserve call backs. Seems like on one hand they says things are great, and on the other hand they grab every free person they can get ahold of. That doesnt make sense to me.

Jude · 3rd November 2004, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past?

Because those wars were large enough to need sheer manpower, rather than equipment and armor like Iraq.

TragicMonkey · 3rd November 2004, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
The "marching" comment was in responce to the "ruin the military" comment. I was talking about drafts in general not specifcally whats going on in Iraq.

Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past?

If the military is so well stocked why do we have all this stop loss, tours extension by all these reservists, and reserve call backs. Seems like on one hand they says things are great, and on the other hand they grab every free person they can get ahold of. That doesnt make sense to me.

Politicians don't like drafts because people resent being forced into warfare. That costs votes, especially when the draftees start getting killed. As a result, the draft is only used when it's considered absolutely necessary. It's an act of desperation, an admission and recognition that there simply aren't enough people to effectively carry out the military goals.

In fixing the shortage, they start with the least offensive-to-the-voters measures and work their way up. Stop-loss, then reserves, then National Guard. The draft is the last step, one that no sane politician wants to be involved with.

Which means that the US military is currently undermanned, but only to a point. We're not desperate....yet.

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jude
Because those wars were large enough to need sheer manpower, rather than equipment and armor like Iraq.

I could see WW2, but was Nam really like that? the current Iraq situation isnt an army vs army fight. Its more of the gurilla type hit n run, pockets of unsecure zones, who the hell is the enemy, kinda fight.

Jude · 3rd November 2004, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I could see WW2, but was Nam really like that? the current Iraq situation isnt an army vs army fight. Its more of the gurilla type hit n run, pockets of unsecure zones, who the hell is the enemy, kinda fight.

We lost nearly 60,000 US soldiers in Vietnam, so yeah, it was really like that. Couple that with today's modern military technologies, and it's not difficult to see why we no longer need a monstrous standing army.

nightwind · 3rd November 2004, 07:03 AM

Yes, it is pretty much disgusting that the turn out for the young people is so weak.

What is also disgusting is that it seems that no matter how eccentric or bizarre a president acts, they can still be blindly followed and elected by adults.

There is some kind of saying that I have heard. It goes something like "Never under estimate the collective stupidity of large masses of people."

These are going to be a very scary 4 years.

AtheistArchon · 3rd November 2004, 07:04 AM

Quote:

We lost nearly 60,000 US soldiers in Vietnam, so yeah, it was really like that. Couple that with today's modern military technologies, and it's not difficult to see why we no longer need a monstrous standing army.

- That's absolutely true if we're talking about killing the enemy, but it's a little more complex when we begin talking about taking and holding ground. That area has always been the domain of the infantry, and it's the area we're hurting in in Iraq.

- I need to find some stats on the recruitment trends recently. If recruitment falls off dramatically, then whether or not the politics of a draft look good or bad, it will begin to loom as a necessity.

gethane · 3rd November 2004, 07:12 AM

From what I understand, although the percentage numbers of young voters didn't change, the voter turnout was so much higher in general that that 17% did represent a pretty significant jump in young voter turnout.

I have a 13 year old son that could suffer from mistakes made in the next 4 years. I'd really rather he didn't have to pay for the mistakes of the voters of 2004.

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 3rd November 2004, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past?

If you talk to someone who was in the military in the vietnam draft era, and stayed in until now, they would tell you the army is far better as all volunteer.

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
If you talk to someone who was in the military in the vietnam draft era, and stayed in until now, they would tell you the army is far better as all volunteer.

Of course it is.

But few people will actually admit that we are understaffed. Its like having a business and saying "we dont need to hire nee people. We have a sufficient workforce." But if your workforce needs mandatory overtime and a vacation freeze to do the work, is it really sufficient?

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 3rd November 2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Of course it is.

But few people will actually admit that we are understaffed. Its like having a business and saying "we dont need to hire nee people. We have a sufficient workforce." But if your workforce needs mandatory overtime and a vacation freeze to do the work, is it really sufficient?

We are most certainly understaffed for the number of wars we want to get into.

The problem is that the average taxpayer doesn't want to pay for soldiers to sit around between wars. Never mind that they are training and becoming more effective.

I think we should keep a large enough volunteer army to get us into and out of reasonably sized conflicts. They keep pitching a new kind of warfare fought by small groups of special forces, but we end up with 110k manforce occupation. Time to expand the military.

Snide · 3rd November 2004, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nightwind
There is some kind of saying that I have heard. It goes something like "Never under estimate the collective stupidity of large masses of people."

As I posted elsewhere, my dad used to tell me that 80% of the world are idiots. Actually, he'd sometimes say as high as 95%. I have a newly found respect for my dad's wisdom.

People can collectively make a good consensus for being a lifeline on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? But when the answers aren't so black and white, they sure can be collectively stupid.

edited a fragmented sentence

Snide · 3rd November 2004, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gethane
From what I understand, although the percentage numbers of young voters didn't change, the voter turnout was so much higher in general that that 17% did represent a pretty significant jump in young voter turnout.

I have a 13 year old son that could suffer from mistakes made in the next 4 years. I'd really rather he didn't have to pay for the mistakes of the voters of 2004.

I feel for ya. I have a ten-year-old son, and despite my ex and I both supporting Kerry, he "liked" Bush. The next election will be so important to me, probably even more than I realize now.

But of course, now that the "stronger candidate on terror" has won, I have nothing to worry about, right?

DaChew · 3rd November 2004, 08:09 AM

Maybe (I'm just saying maybe) the youth weren't really worried that there'd be a draft. You know, since both candidates said flately that there would be no draft under their administration. It's just possible that the kids actually heard them both say that. I know, I know, kids don't listen to anything the old folks say but maybe they just happened to hear that bit of information like, right between the time they turned on the TV and then booted up the PlayStation.

I wonder if it's true that 18-24 year olds didn't really vote in a large percentage. I wonder if you polled 18-24 year olds currently serving in the military and asked if they voted and who they voted for what their response would be.

Tmy · 3rd November 2004, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
They keep pitching a new kind of warfare fought by small groups of special forces, but we end up with 110k manforce occupation. Time to expand the military.

That'll be tough to do. Iraq doesnt have that patriotic draw. As for $$ incentives. Thats another tough area. There are plenty of economic opportunities back in the states, youd need quite an incentive to pull kids into the military. I can see lots finacally secure parents subsidising their kids rather than have them join the military to pay for school ect...

TragicMonkey · 3rd November 2004, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaChew
Maybe (I'm just saying maybe) the youth weren't really worried that there'd be a draft. You know, since both candidates said flately that there would be no draft under their administration. It's just possible that the kids actually heard them both say that. I know, I know, kids don't listen to anything the old folks say but maybe they just happened to hear that bit of information like, right between the time they turned on the TV and then booted up the PlayStation.

Lol. If these kids actually believe campaign promises, they're in for a shock.

shuize · 3rd November 2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Lol. If these kids actually believe campaign promises, they're in for a shock.

Exactly. Now's the perfect time to draft them. They'll never suspect it. Plus it would be really funny.

Bush: I'm not running for office again. Why should I care?

Nikk · 3rd November 2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
We are most certainly understaffed for the number of wars we want to get into.

And with a $7.4 trillion national debt how many can you afford?

Khalid01 · 3rd November 2004, 10:42 AM

Tmy believes that because 80% of my peers by age didn't vote, I should be drafted, despite the fact that I voted, and that I'm damn-pissed at the result of the election?

Appalling logic... if voter responsibility should be accounted for by age, then why don't all of the older non-voters drop into Iraq? Surely they should know by that time in life what non-participation entails, punish them.

Looks like you lot are searching for a scapegoat. I can't blame you, but don't threaten my college education over our mutual anger.

DaChew · 3rd November 2004, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khalid01
Tmy believes that because 80% of my peers by age didn't vote, I should be drafted, despite the fact that I voted, and that I'm damn-pissed at the result of the election?

Appalling logic... if voter responsibility should be accounted for by age, then why don't all of the older non-voters drop into Iraq? Surely they should know by that time in life what non-participation entails, punish them.

Looks like you lot are searching for a scapegoat. I can't blame you, but don't threaten my college education over our mutual anger.

It's ok. You don't have to pretend anymore. You can admit it - You only voted because P Diddy threatened to kill you if you didn't right? I can't imagine what else he could have meant by "Vote or Die".

bennator · 3rd November 2004, 01:31 PM

As I stop lurking for a bit, I can tell you that comments like this do a disservice to every person in this age group who actually took time out to vote. At least in my class (Senior in HS), there was a lot of optimism that the people voting would make a difference in this election, and it was overwhelmingly pro-Kerry (in Ohio). Today, we hear about the low turnout, and some Kerry supporters blaming our age group for losing the state to him. All that does is make the people in the age group who did vote wonder why they should vote again, if people complain when they vote, and when they don't.

a_unique_person · 3rd November 2004, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I heard these stats this morning.

Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17%
Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17%

Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them.

Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA"

They know they won't get drafted, they just won't let anyone quite who is now in the armed forces. There's a lot less of them.

glsunder · 3rd November 2004, 02:59 PM

I'd say there will only be a draft if the US gets into another large conflict. If you want to be a conspiracy believer, since that furthers both the causes of the neocons and Osama, the odds are fairly high of having another major conflict soon.

A bigger, more realistic threat in my eyes is the national debt. Modern republicans seem to spend just as much as democrats, just on different things. Someone threw out $7.4 trillion. Thats about $25,000 per person in the US. The closest figure for average wealth per person in the US was $49,000 in 1997. When do we get to the point where the country is too far in debt? At $14.8T? At $20T? $30T? Do we start paying attention when the interest costs more than education? The military? Bush said he too would cut the deficit. I guess we'll see.

Frostbite · 3rd November 2004, 03:30 PM

Nice thinking. Not interested in politics? Go get killed in battle.

Keep up the good work!

Yahweh · 3rd November 2004, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
I heard these stats this morning.

Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17%
Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17%

I would have voted if I could...

Looks like Rock to the Vote was a bomb...
A gun-toting P. Diddy's "Vote or Die" campaign just aint hardcore enough...
Kerry's promise to raise the minimum wage to US$7 an hour wasnt convincing...
And voting is for the conformists...

Idiots.

3rd November 2004, 06:01 AM	#1
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Young People Deserve to be Drafted. I heard these stats this morning. Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17% Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17% Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them. Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA"
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 06:04 AM	#2
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Re: Young People Deserve to be Drafted. Quote: Originally posted by Tmy I heard these stats this morning. Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17% Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17% Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them. Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA" I'm with you on this one.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

3rd November 2004, 06:04 AM	#3
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310	I'm sure you already noticed, but the draft bill failed. Really though, I don't know what the heck is wrong with the kids. Voting isn't a big inconvenience.
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310

3rd November 2004, 06:10 AM	#4
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by Jude I'm sure you already noticed, but the draft bill failed. Really though, I don't know what the heck is wrong with the kids. Voting isn't a big inconvenience. I sorta wonder about the parents. I mean, they nag about everything else, why not voting?
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

3rd November 2004, 06:17 AM	#7
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote. They can fill sandbags for the Corps of Engineers. Gotta do something with that Philosophy Degree.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

3rd November 2004, 06:14 AM	#5
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	part of me (the part that's really angry right now) says yeah, they deserve to get drafted, serves'em right. but dying for a stupid war is too severe a civics lesson, I think. (not that I think a draft is going to happen anyway)

3rd November 2004, 06:14 AM	#6
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote.

3rd November 2004, 06:18 AM	#8
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen I wouldn't ruin our military because 18-24 year olds don't vote. So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead?? Im sure the military would rather not draft but there comes a point when they need too. Lets face it, Iraq requires alot of groudn troops. And with Iran getting lippy, who knows whats on the horizon.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 06:20 AM	#9
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	I think most people have to grow up a little before they appreciate the real life impact of politics. For some reason, American adolescence seems to extend into the early twenties these days. I used to work with several twenty-year-olds. They were very knowledgable about celebrities, but couldn't find Afghanistan on a map during the whole US versus Taliban thing. It makes me feel very old. And angry.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

3rd November 2004, 06:25 AM	#10
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,279	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead?? Im sure the military would rather not draft but there comes a point when they need too. Lets face it, Iraq requires alot of groudn troops. And with Iran getting lippy, who knows whats on the horizon. Oh brother... Fewer than 2000 dead after a successful invasion and government overthrow and a continuing occupation is "marching troops to their deaths"?!?! Read a little military history for some comparisons. I suggest you start by checking out some of the enemy's attacks against US troops during the Korean conflict...
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

3rd November 2004, 06:27 AM	#11
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy So you march a bunch of undermanned troops to their death instead?? That's not the only option.

3rd November 2004, 06:28 AM	#12
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,279	I'd rather someone not vote at all than have them vote with ignorance and apathy...
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

3rd November 2004, 06:34 AM	#13
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	The "marching" comment was in responce to the "ruin the military" comment. I was talking about drafts in general not specifcally whats going on in Iraq. Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past? If the military is so well stocked why do we have all this stop loss, tours extension by all these reservists, and reserve call backs. Seems like on one hand they says things are great, and on the other hand they grab every free person they can get ahold of. That doesnt make sense to me.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 06:42 AM	#14
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past? Because those wars were large enough to need sheer manpower, rather than equipment and armor like Iraq.
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310

3rd November 2004, 06:43 AM	#15
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy The "marching" comment was in responce to the "ruin the military" comment. I was talking about drafts in general not specifcally whats going on in Iraq. Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past? If the military is so well stocked why do we have all this stop loss, tours extension by all these reservists, and reserve call backs. Seems like on one hand they says things are great, and on the other hand they grab every free person they can get ahold of. That doesnt make sense to me. Politicians don't like drafts because people resent being forced into warfare. That costs votes, especially when the draftees start getting killed. As a result, the draft is only used when it's considered absolutely necessary. It's an act of desperation, an admission and recognition that there simply aren't enough people to effectively carry out the military goals. In fixing the shortage, they start with the least offensive-to-the-voters measures and work their way up. Stop-loss, then reserves, then National Guard. The draft is the last step, one that no sane politician wants to be involved with. Which means that the US military is currently undermanned, but only to a point. We're not desperate....yet.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

3rd November 2004, 06:46 AM	#16
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by Jude Because those wars were large enough to need sheer manpower, rather than equipment and armor like Iraq. I could see WW2, but was Nam really like that? the current Iraq situation isnt an army vs army fight. Its more of the gurilla type hit n run, pockets of unsecure zones, who the hell is the enemy, kinda fight.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 06:59 AM	#17
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy I could see WW2, but was Nam really like that? the current Iraq situation isnt an army vs army fight. Its more of the gurilla type hit n run, pockets of unsecure zones, who the hell is the enemy, kinda fight. We lost nearly 60,000 US soldiers in Vietnam, so yeah, it was really like that. Couple that with today's modern military technologies, and it's not difficult to see why we no longer need a monstrous standing army.
Jude Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 310

3rd November 2004, 07:03 AM	#18
nightwind Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 398	Youth Yes, it is pretty much disgusting that the turn out for the young people is so weak. What is also disgusting is that it seems that no matter how eccentric or bizarre a president acts, they can still be blindly followed and elected by adults. There is some kind of saying that I have heard. It goes something like "Never under estimate the collective stupidity of large masses of people." These are going to be a very scary 4 years.
	__________________ "A Wise Man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can see from the top of a mountain" "Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious." - Alan Minter, Boxer

3rd November 2004, 07:04 AM	#19
AtheistArchon Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 589	Quote: We lost nearly 60,000 US soldiers in Vietnam, so yeah, it was really like that. Couple that with today's modern military technologies, and it's not difficult to see why we no longer need a monstrous standing army. - That's absolutely true if we're talking about killing the enemy, but it's a little more complex when we begin talking about taking and holding ground. That area has always been the domain of the infantry, and it's the area we're hurting in in Iraq. - I need to find some stats on the recruitment trends recently. If recruitment falls off dramatically, then whether or not the politics of a draft look good or bad, it will begin to loom as a necessity.
AtheistArchon Muse Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 589

3rd November 2004, 07:12 AM	#20
gethane Thinker Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 142	From what I understand, although the percentage numbers of young voters didn't change, the voter turnout was so much higher in general that that 17% did represent a pretty significant jump in young voter turnout. I have a 13 year old son that could suffer from mistakes made in the next 4 years. I'd really rather he didn't have to pay for the mistakes of the voters of 2004.
gethane Thinker Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 142

3rd November 2004, 07:30 AM	#21
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Everyone seems to have this idea that drafts are terrible for the military and will never be used. If thats true why did we use them in the past? If you talk to someone who was in the military in the vietnam draft era, and stayed in until now, they would tell you the army is far better as all volunteer.

3rd November 2004, 07:37 AM	#22
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen If you talk to someone who was in the military in the vietnam draft era, and stayed in until now, they would tell you the army is far better as all volunteer. Of course it is. But few people will actually admit that we are understaffed. Its like having a business and saying "we dont need to hire nee people. We have a sufficient workforce." But if your workforce needs mandatory overtime and a vacation freeze to do the work, is it really sufficient?
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 07:46 AM	#23
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy Of course it is. But few people will actually admit that we are understaffed. Its like having a business and saying "we dont need to hire nee people. We have a sufficient workforce." But if your workforce needs mandatory overtime and a vacation freeze to do the work, is it really sufficient? We are most certainly understaffed for the number of wars we want to get into. The problem is that the average taxpayer doesn't want to pay for soldiers to sit around between wars. Never mind that they are training and becoming more effective. I think we should keep a large enough volunteer army to get us into and out of reasonably sized conflicts. They keep pitching a new kind of warfare fought by small groups of special forces, but we end up with 110k manforce occupation. Time to expand the military.

3rd November 2004, 08:01 AM	#24
Snide Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 3,187	Re: Youth Quote: Originally posted by nightwind There is some kind of saying that I have heard. It goes something like "Never under estimate the collective stupidity of large masses of people." As I posted elsewhere, my dad used to tell me that 80% of the world are idiots. Actually, he'd sometimes say as high as 95%. I have a newly found respect for my dad's wisdom. People can collectively make a good consensus for being a lifeline on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? But when the answers aren't so black and white, they sure can be collectively stupid. edited a fragmented sentence

3rd November 2004, 08:05 AM	#25
Snide Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 3,187	Quote: Originally posted by gethane From what I understand, although the percentage numbers of young voters didn't change, the voter turnout was so much higher in general that that 17% did represent a pretty significant jump in young voter turnout. I have a 13 year old son that could suffer from mistakes made in the next 4 years. I'd really rather he didn't have to pay for the mistakes of the voters of 2004. I feel for ya. I have a ten-year-old son, and despite my ex and I both supporting Kerry, he "liked" Bush. The next election will be so important to me, probably even more than I realize now. But of course, now that the "stronger candidate on terror" has won, I have nothing to worry about, right?

3rd November 2004, 08:09 AM	#26
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Maybe (I'm just saying maybe) the youth weren't really worried that there'd be a draft. You know, since both candidates said flately that there would be no draft under their administration. It's just possible that the kids actually heard them both say that. I know, I know, kids don't listen to anything the old folks say but maybe they just happened to hear that bit of information like, right between the time they turned on the TV and then booted up the PlayStation. I wonder if it's true that 18-24 year olds didn't really vote in a large percentage. I wonder if you polled 18-24 year olds currently serving in the military and asked if they voted and who they voted for what their response would be.
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043

3rd November 2004, 08:11 AM	#27
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen They keep pitching a new kind of warfare fought by small groups of special forces, but we end up with 110k manforce occupation. Time to expand the military. That'll be tough to do. Iraq doesnt have that patriotic draw. As for $$ incentives. Thats another tough area. There are plenty of economic opportunities back in the states, youd need quite an incentive to pull kids into the military. I can see lots finacally secure parents subsidising their kids rather than have them join the military to pay for school ect...
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

3rd November 2004, 08:14 AM	#28
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	Quote: Originally posted by DaChew Maybe (I'm just saying maybe) the youth weren't really worried that there'd be a draft. You know, since both candidates said flately that there would be no draft under their administration. It's just possible that the kids actually heard them both say that. I know, I know, kids don't listen to anything the old folks say but maybe they just happened to hear that bit of information like, right between the time they turned on the TV and then booted up the PlayStation. Lol. If these kids actually believe campaign promises, they're in for a shock.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

3rd November 2004, 08:50 AM	#29
shuize Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Japan Posts: 2,311	Quote: Originally posted by TragicMonkey Lol. If these kids actually believe campaign promises, they're in for a shock. Exactly. Now's the perfect time to draft them. They'll never suspect it. Plus it would be really funny. Bush: I'm not running for office again. Why should I care?

3rd November 2004, 08:55 AM	#30
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen We are most certainly understaffed for the number of wars we want to get into. And with a $7.4 trillion national debt how many can you afford?
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249

3rd November 2004, 10:42 AM	#31
Khalid01 Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Beach, Irvine, California Posts: 179	Tmy believes that because 80% of my peers by age didn't vote, I should be drafted, despite the fact that I voted, and that I'm damn-pissed at the result of the election? Appalling logic... if voter responsibility should be accounted for by age, then why don't all of the older non-voters drop into Iraq? Surely they should know by that time in life what non-participation entails, punish them. Looks like you lot are searching for a scapegoat. I can't blame you, but don't threaten my college education over our mutual anger.
	__________________ "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov, Foundation "I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural and which I find totally satisfying. I am, in short, a rationalist and believe only that which reason tells me is so." - Isaac Asimov

3rd November 2004, 12:54 PM	#32
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Quote: Originally posted by Khalid01 Tmy believes that because 80% of my peers by age didn't vote, I should be drafted, despite the fact that I voted, and that I'm damn-pissed at the result of the election? Appalling logic... if voter responsibility should be accounted for by age, then why don't all of the older non-voters drop into Iraq? Surely they should know by that time in life what non-participation entails, punish them. Looks like you lot are searching for a scapegoat. I can't blame you, but don't threaten my college education over our mutual anger. It's ok. You don't have to pretend anymore. You can admit it - You only voted because P Diddy threatened to kill you if you didn't right? I can't imagine what else he could have meant by "Vote or Die".
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043

3rd November 2004, 01:31 PM	#33
bennator New Blood Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3	As I stop lurking for a bit, I can tell you that comments like this do a disservice to every person in this age group who actually took time out to vote. At least in my class (Senior in HS), there was a lot of optimism that the people voting would make a difference in this election, and it was overwhelmingly pro-Kerry (in Ohio). Today, we hear about the low turnout, and some Kerry supporters blaming our age group for losing the state to him. All that does is make the people in the age group who did vote wonder why they should vote again, if people complain when they vote, and when they don't.
bennator New Blood Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3

3rd November 2004, 02:36 PM	#34
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,331	Quote: Originally posted by Tmy I heard these stats this morning. Young registered voters who showed up at the polls: 17% Young voters who showed up for the 2000 election: 17% Ya think with the war around they would be inspired to vote. God knows there was enough publicity for them. Well when they get their draft cards they should have a picture of Nelson Muntz on the envelope saying "HAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAA" They know they won't get drafted, they just won't let anyone quite who is now in the armed forces. There's a lot less of them.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

3rd November 2004, 02:59 PM	#35
glsunder Scholar Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 119	I'd say there will only be a draft if the US gets into another large conflict. If you want to be a conspiracy believer, since that furthers both the causes of the neocons and Osama, the odds are fairly high of having another major conflict soon. A bigger, more realistic threat in my eyes is the national debt. Modern republicans seem to spend just as much as democrats, just on different things. Someone threw out $7.4 trillion. Thats about $25,000 per person in the US. The closest figure for average wealth per person in the US was $49,000 in 1997. When do we get to the point where the country is too far in debt? At $14.8T? At $20T? $30T? Do we start paying attention when the interest costs more than education? The military? Bush said he too would cut the deficit. I guess we'll see.
glsunder Scholar Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 119