Explain miracles

22nd August 2002, 09:22 PM

I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

22nd August 2002, 10:32 PM

Something happens.

People project their preconceptions and expectations onto it.

Instant "miracle".

You know, I got a picture of Elvis on a tortilla, once. Miraculously, it tasted just like the other ones.

22nd August 2002, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

Hello angelinthemorning!

www.dictionary.com has this definition:

"An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God."

I'm certain there are a number of other definitions, but this one will do for my discussion.

The key word in that definition is "appears" because the laws of nature are not strictly static. As humankind learns and discovers and tests and observes, these laws are developed and modified. Some of what appeared to be inexplicable a short hundred years ago is today common.

From the Bible, the "bottomless baskets" of fish and bread would be an example of a miraculous event. Unlike the "clown car" trick that a circus might perform, where a dozen or more clowns file out of a small car, the "loaves and fishes" story in the Bible claims that god multiplied the food to feed an incredible number of people. Could this have been faked? Perhaps. Perhaps it never happened. But that would be an example of a miracle - creating food where it didn't exist.

Of course, the "miraculousness" (not sure that is a word) of the event, if determined to be possible without "divine intervention" would quickly fade.

I myself am not sure that anything is really miraculous. Does the lack of an explanation in the present necessitate that an event is miraculous? I wouldn't think so.

Have a nice day and welcome to the forum!
Sort

The Fool · 22nd August 2002, 10:55 PM

Miracles are what Gods use to get people to sign up to thier religion.Whenever your god had special messages for people he would perform "miracles". This was a way of saying "this is your god speaking, who else could do that eh?" Sort of like Gods ID card. So it obviously had to be something that impressed people. "The miracle of the healing of the sunburn" would not have been very usefull, "the healing of the cripple" is better, "raising from the dead" now THAT has got to be impressive. Just about any self respecting god performs miracles. Its what gods do.....anyway, its what some men say that they have done and thats proof enough for quite a lot of people to sign up.....

23rd August 2002, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome.

The Fool · 23rd August 2002, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bozotheda
Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome.

I agree with you about the physics stuff but do miracles have to have a beneficial outcome?....Is poxing a whole pile of heathens beneficial.........Hmmmmm actually, you're right, after all, they're only heathens.

Crossbow · 23rd August 2002, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

To: angelinthemorning

Hello!

"Angel in the Morning" has long been one of my favorite songs so I think it is great that you are using it as a handle.

And as to your question, I am sorry, but this skeptic cannot help you.

To explain, essentially the dictionary defines Miracles as an event provided by a deity (or deities). They are not the product of man, nature, or by combination of the two.

Well, since I do not think that the universe contains a deity (or deities) and that everything that happens is consistent with basic physical laws, I conclude that there are no such things as Miracles.

Now then, occasionally events occur that are extremely rare, misunderstood, or unusual but I do not think that these sort of stipulations makes these events a god induced Miracle.

Tricky · 23rd August 2002, 09:43 AM

Bozotheda' definition of a miracle:

Quote:

Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome.

This is the definition that should be used for a miracle, however in common usage, it often describes an event that has a very low probabability, such as recovering from a usually fatal disease or winning the lottery. I feel that this usage is incorrect, but people will persist in claiming "miracle" cures.

An even worse usage of the word occurs when believers engage in pareidolia, an example of which is seeing the face of Jesus in a tortilla. This is nothing more than pattern recognition, and is not miraculous in any sense of the word, yet people often shell out bucks to see such things as the shroud of Turin.

I think that for this discussion we would be best to confine ourselves to the definition proposed by Bozotheda.

RandFan · 23rd August 2002, 10:12 AM

Hi Angel,

I'm supposed to be leaving but had to answer your post.

I bought a California lottery ticket today. The odds are something like 40+ million to one. Now if I win I will feel like it is a miracle As I should since it's about as likely that I'll get to date Faith Hill and Shania Twain (It could happen). It wouldn't be though. Just statistics. Most things that are seen as miracles are expected by those who understand statistics. I expect that someone will win the lottery sometime in the near future. If 10 million people fall out of a plane without parachutes a number of them will survive the fall. No miracle, just statistics.

23rd August 2002, 11:59 AM

I've always liked David Hume's take on miracles.

Also, why is a man recovering from the brink of death a miracle, but a perfectly healthy man dying for no discernable reason not one?

23rd August 2002, 12:00 PM

I've always liked David Hume's take on miracles.

Also, why is a man recovering from the brink of death a miracle, but a perfectly healthy man dying for no discernable reason not one?

Victor Danilchenko · 23rd August 2002, 12:39 PM

Nialscorva,

Welcome to the party -- and nice opening! Yes, old Hume had said a lot of stuff that's useful and meaningful even today. His take on miracles is certainly a nice tweak to supernaturalists' noses.

FireGarden · 23rd August 2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

Hi Angel in the morning, welcome to the forum.
Brown originally posted this quote in some other thread. I've left Brown's comments since I think they sum it up.

Quote:

Thomas Paine, in "The Age of Reason," had this to say about miracles. He considered them to be incompatible with true religion:

_________________________________________
Since, then, appearances are so capable of deceiving, and things not real have a strong resemblance to things that are, nothing can be more inconsistent than to suppose that the Almighty would make use of means such as are called miracles, that would subject the person who performed them to the suspicion of being an impostor, and the person who related them to be suspected of lying, and the doctrine intended to be supported thereby to be suspected as a fabulous invention.

Of all the modes of evidence that ever were invented to obtain belief to any system or opinion to which the name of religion has been given, that of miracle, however successful the imposition may have been, is the most inconsistent. For, in the first place, whenever recourse is had to show, for the purpose of procuring that belief, (for a miracle, under any idea of the word, is a show), it implies a lameness or weakness in the doctrine that is preached. And, in the second place, it is degrading the Almighty into the character of a showman, playing tricks to amuse and make the people stare and wonder. It is also the most equivocal sort of evidence that can be set up; for the belief is not to depend upon the thing called a miracle, but upon the credit of the reporter who says that he saw it; and, therefore, the thing, were it true, would have no better chance of being believed than if it were a lie.

Suppose I were to say, that when I sat down to write this book, a hand presented itself in the air, took up the pen, and wrote every word that is herein written; would anybody believe me? Certainly they would not. Would they believe me a whit the more if the thing had been a fact? Certainly they would not. Since, then, a real miracle, were it to happen, would be subject to the same fate as the falsehood, the inconsistency becomes the greater of supposing the Almighty would make use of means that would not answer the purpose for which they were intended, even if they were real.

If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.

...
...

In every point of view in which those things called miracles can be placed and considered, the reality of them is improbable and their existence unnecessary. They would not, as before observed, answer any useful purpose, even if they were true; for it is more difficult to obtain belief to a miracle, than to a principle evidently moral without any miracle. Moral principle speaks universally for itself. Miracle could be but a thing of the moment, and seen but by a few; after this it requires a transfer of faith from God to man to believe a miracle upon man's report. Instead, therefore, of admitting the recitals of miracles as evidence of any system of religion being true, they ought to be considered as symptoms of its being fabulous. It is necessary to the full and upright character of truth that it rejects the crutch, and it is consistent with the character of fable to seek the aid that truth rejects.
__________________________________________________

When I first read this argument, I did not perceive its full depth. But I came to believe that Paine made several valid points. Belief in miracles does not correspond to faith in a deity. Rather, it corresponds to faith in people. And yet people are so easily deceived, and so prone not to tell the truth, that it calls the validity of all claimed miracles into question.

And when all is said and done, what is the point of a miracle, anyway? Even if it actually takes place, what is the point of faith healing?

Pahansiri · 23rd August 2002, 01:53 PM

Angelinthemorning asks.

Quote:

I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

Greetings Angelinthemorning, please know what I say is just my thoughts and I mean no disrespect.

How would I define a miracle? An event that is the result of like all things causes and conditions being correct or what they were.

It is very true that sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of a god or gods. Really it only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, back when people didn?t know what was the cause of sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. OK, some still do today. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine or the right actions to help or cure it. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease.

I don't discount anything that I cannot prove either way but I also do not grasp to a simple answer or one I may personally want to be true. You may very well be right about God, it matters not at all to me, and it can have no effect on how I must live my life, what I must do to improve my actions and mind.

A friend of mine told me after the 9-11 events in NYC that Jesus saved people and performed people and Buddha didn?t. I first explained Buddha was not in that business

I asked him if the people at and above the crash site and the people on all planes there and at the other sites, were not good Christians and worth saving? No one on either plane lived nor did anyone at or above either impact site live. Were they not good? Did they not pray hard enough?

The reason people lived was the causes and conditions were right for them to live.

Just what I believe.

gentlehorse · 23rd August 2002, 03:32 PM

Quote:

angelinthemorning:
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

Hi, angel.

I believe in God as well, which is to say that many of the good folks here consider me to be delusional and given to wishful thinking. Apparently, nothing I've been able to say thus far has provided them cause to reconsider their positions and so, in their eyes, by belief has no more validity than a belief in invisible unicorns or Santa. This is fine with me as I didn't come here to convert anyone anyway, but rather to exchange ideas and possibly learn a thing or two. With this in mind, I'd say that my time here has been well spent.

The folks here will usually answer your questions to the best of their abilities. They will not generally take your feelings into consideration in doing so, though some are more diplomatic than others. A few, however, are downright rude, dismissive, arrogant, condescending, cynical, and hostile. If you stick around long enough, you're sure to meet all kinds. If nothing else, this forum provides access to a wonderful cross-section of intelligent, thoughtful people coming from a wide variety of backgrounds.

If I were to try to define "miracle" I'd probably go with part of Bozotheda's definition:

Quote:

Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics...

I've never seen one, other than the one I see every morning when I open my eyes and start a new day. That's right. I consider the untire universe to be a miracle and my ability to perceive a small fraction of it a gift beyond words. But what would you expect from a delusional old rat like me?

Bentspoon · 23rd August 2002, 04:45 PM

I see miracles all the time - not by the conventional definition of the word but, emotionally, equivalent to any miracle referred to in religious history.

Each heart transplant is a miracle
the first hand transplant was a major miracle
Man landing on the moon was a miracle
the Hubbel telescope is a miracle
an airliner is a miracle
the space shuttle is a miracle

I think you get the idea. I stand in awe of these achievements. I fail to understand why people will flock to a greasy smear on the side of the building but when Grandma lives another 15 years in the family due to a heart transplant ................

well, that's just boring science isn't it.

Miracles and magical things are happening everywhere around us but people see anything connected to man's technology as mundane or not worthy of praise. Worse than that, technology gets a bad rap. When anything good comes from technology - God must have had a hand in it.

My mother-in-law used to swoon at the "miracles" of Lourdes. I said, "yeah sure but when push comes to shove you will "worship at the halls of technology" and solicit the help of the "wizards of science"". Her husband's heart attck and her cancer proved me out. Of course she wanted to go to the hospital and Lourdes never came up ............. but she truly believes in the miracles there.

I think not

Anyway, I know it will raise a few eyebrows but when it comes to miracles I will take technology's over religion's anytime. Technology is doing wondrous things. Religious miracles pale by example.

In fact, the only miracles that truly exist are those that technology has given us.

And if it really came down to brass tacks, where the environment is failing and the sky is falling ........... I will take refuge with the technologists as opposed to those that would invoke a deity for a miracle. Those that would pray for salvation.

Those that "believe" in religious miracles will be right there beside me too because they do know who really butters their bread.

Man's achievements deserve more reverence

Bentspoon

23rd August 2002, 06:59 PM

Hello Thank you all so much for the responses to my question.Thanks also for the welcome.

23rd August 2002, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bentspoon
I see miracles all the time - not by the conventional definition of the word but, emotionally, equivalent to any miracle referred to in religious history.

Each heart transplant is a miracle
the first hand transplant was a major miracle
Man landing on the moon was a miracle
the Hubbel telescope is a miracle
an airliner is a miracle
the space shuttle is a miracle

I think you get the idea. I stand in awe of these achievements. I fail to understand why people will flock to a greasy smear on the side of the building but when Grandma lives another 15 years in the family due to a heart transplant ................

well, that's just boring science isn't it.

Hello Bentspoon!
It is true that man has made amazing strides over the years, specifically in the areas of medicine and transportation. Our ingenuity is quite a wonderful thing. Man sees a problem, a hurdle, an annoyance, a genetic defect, a physical or mental handicap and then tries to understand them and develop the solution.

A reason that I question why some believe that "god's hand" is in the development of these new technologies is that the development often isn't a quick thing. Man generally doesn't just wake up one day and have a solution in his head. Often man errs and has to try multiple paths to find the correct one. Couple this with the idea that god has decided to reveal now the solution to a problem that has plagued mankind for decades, centuries, perhaps thousands of years. Why is that?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bentspoon
In fact, the only miracles that truly exist are those that technology has given us.
Bentspoon

Sometimes things happen that people categorize as miracles. Sometimes technology has nothing to do with these "miracles." Sometimes, for example, the human body heals without a technological breakthrough. Is this "miraculous"? Who knows? The only thing I know is that some things we cannot currently explain. This doesn't in my opinion mean that a deity had his or hand in this event.

Have a nice evening!
Sort

23rd August 2002, 08:42 PM

This sort of feeds into the "Crediting God for all good things" topic.

Why aren't there any "bad" miracles?

As a matter of fact, there are a lot of things named "miracles" that are negative for someone.

Plenty of battles where both sides were the same religion (give or take), yet something happened that benefitted one side, and it was claimed to be a *miracle*, even though to the other side it was a disaster.

Naturally "god" is always on your side if you're going to go slaughter people across an artificially drawn boundary.

Tricky · 23rd August 2002, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by evildave
Why aren't there any "bad" miracles?

As a matter of fact, there are a lot of things named "miracles" that are negative for someone.

Plenty of battles where both sides were the same religion (give or take), yet something happened that benefitted one side, and it was claimed to be a *miracle*, even though to the other side it was a disaster.

Naturally "god" is always on your side if you're going to go slaughter people across an artificially drawn boundary.

Absolutely right, evil one. For example, about a year ago a handful of fearless people armed only with box-cutters were able to strike fear into the hearts of every American. If that's not a miracle, I don't know what is.

23rd August 2002, 09:24 PM

"Allah is great!"

I seem to recall video of people dancing in the streets, too.

11th February 2003, 07:54 AM

I kinda like the definition given above of 'anything that appears to exceed the laws of nature". If it is perceived to exceed the expectations of the present, there is generally a rush to slap the label of "miracle" on it. (Even if your perceptions are absurdly misinformed or your expectations childishly low.) An airplane is a "miracle" to jungle natives. Not to me. A matter or relativity, at least in how you apply the term. In form, if not in fact.

Interesting side note, in the New Testament, Iesous ("Jesus") told his mathetoi ("disciples") not to believe him because of the miracles he performed, because even the pagans could perform miracles and signs. He chided Tomas ("Thomas") because he demanded proof of the miracle of the resurrection, and said it would've been better if he had simply taken his word for it. That's "faith". Miracles are a sort of sign of some kind of power. But to expect a sign, a sort of proof, well, that's approaching science. (Maybe just "pseudo-science", but it's close.) Iesous couldn't have that. In terms of religion, miraculous indicators are good--blind faith is even better.

specious_reasons · 11th February 2003, 08:25 AM

One book suggested to me was C.S. Lewis' Miracles, which is a philosophic analysis of miracles.

Evidently, one of the things he attempts to show is that miracles have been and are occurring. Has anyone read this? Opinions? It's on my "to read" list.

I am of the opinion that God has been pretty lacking in the miracle department in recent history. I've heard lots of excuses, but I haven't heard of any recent miracle that clearly shows itself as a supernatural event.

c4ts · 11th February 2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

First you would have to show the skeptic a miracle, then await definition. To elaborate, if something is inexplicable, it's not a miracle, because "it's a miracle" would explain it. For example, Jesus H. Christ soaring through the air without an apparent mundane cause (such as a hang glider or rocket pack) would qualify as "miracle" if it's really Jesus. Otherwise it's just a paranormal phenominon, or simply a guy named "Jesus" on a hang glider soaring through the air.

Franko · 11th February 2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

First you would have to show the skeptic a miracle, then await definition. To elaborate, if something is inexplicable, it's not a miracle, because "it's a miracle" would explain it. For example, Jesus H. Christ soaring through the air without an apparent mundane cause (such as a hang glider or rocket pack) would qualify as "miracle" if it's really Jesus. Otherwise it's just a paranormal phenominon, or simply a guy named "Jesus" on a hang glider soaring through the air.

How about an Entire Universe magically appearing out of no where? Would that count as a miracle?

How about a person who claimed that they possessed magical powers that allowed them to Disobey the very laws of Physics themselves? Would such an ability count as a miracle?

What would be considered a "miracle" by an A-theistic religious fanatic such as yourself c4ts?

Frostbite · 11th February 2003, 09:25 AM

If we could explain miracles they wouldn't be miracles anymore now would they?

Franko · 11th February 2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

If we could explain miracles they wouldn't be miracles anymore now would they?

Isn't that the same as saying that there are no miracles?

I see your point though ... once you can explain a miracle it becomes logical ... just like a magic trick only seems magical to people who don't comprehend the logic of it.

synaesthesia · 11th February 2003, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko
How about an Entire Universe magically appearing out of no where? Would that count as a miracle?

That would count as a logical contradiction, since any 'no where' from which something can come would be included in the universe.

11th February 2003, 10:19 AM

I think this story gives my thoughts on “miracles”:

Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles.

1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery.

2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B.

Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ?

c4ts · 11th February 2003, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pouli
I think this story gives my thoughts on “miracles”:

Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles.

1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery.

That example is possibly a mistake or hoax. It is not known if the two events are actually related, and the figure of a woman is a bit poorly defined. Sometimes anything that remotely resembles a woman in white is assumed to be the virgin mary when it is actually a blurry photo of a fence post...

Quote:

2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B.

That looks more like a deliberate bombing or coincidential meteor impact than a miracle. But if the ball were truly made of fire, and did not behave like a nuke or a meteor (for example, if it incinerated the city and did not leave a crater or release fallout), then it could be considered a miracle (among many other things).

Quote:

Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ?

I'm afraid I cannot tell based on the information provided.

Dub · 11th February 2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franko

How about a person who claimed that they possessed magical powers that allowed them to Disobey the very laws of Physics themselves?

That isnt a miracle, it's literally what youve typed. Just someone claiming they can do something which logically they shouldnt be able to do; i.e. just another wacko, and the reason the JREF still has its $1million after all these years.

Hazelip · 11th February 2003, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angelinthemorning
I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.

A miracle is something that has never happened. Ever.

synaesthesia · 13th February 2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hazelip
A miracle is something that has never happened. Ever.

So tomorrow is a miracle?

c4ts · 13th February 2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by synaesthesia

So tomorrow is a miracle?

For the duration of two days, after which tomorrow becomes yesterday.

Upchurch · 13th February 2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts

For the duration of two days, after which tomorrow becomes yesterday.

Actually, after only one day, wouldn't it become today?

13th February 2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Upchurch

Actually, after only one day, wouldn't it become today?

I'll tell you tommarrow.

13th February 2003, 06:00 PM

Miracles?? Basically unexplained events right? Something happens that is just IMPOSSIBLE any other way, so it has to be done by god. Well, this makes sense, but i have this lovely hobby that can show a good point that the most IMPOSSIBLE events has an explanation. go here. magicities.com/j3kmagicman/ and you will see things that most of you wont be able to explain. am i god now??

lol. this is mostly a joke, but it makes a point about how miracles have explantions. that is also a real site by the way.

I also have a question. I have heard religous people say god NEVER intervines in the lives of people. So how can miricles even occur? If this is a false statement, somebody please let me know.

14th February 2003, 05:01 AM

Miracles are explanations by the ignorant. Pretty simple huh?

Hazelip · 14th February 2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by synaesthesia

So tomorrow is a miracle?

Clever interpretation. I tip my hat...

amhartley · 3rd June 2006, 02:57 PM

Angelinthemorning,
Very interesting thread; thx for starting it. I already posted this to another thread, but thought it was very relevant here:

<< People so often think of a miracle as a suspension or breaking of natural laws. In “case-sensitive’s” words, a miracle is “something strange.”

But the biggest miracle is that God loved us enough to send Jesus, even to die for us, & even when we hated Him. And the next biggest (although one that preceded the stable & the Cross) is that He upholds this world, i.e., that He has put those natural laws in place.

It is tragic that, since the time of Descartes (recall his “substances”) & even before, Western culture has thought of the world as self-sufficient. According to this (deist) conception, a miracle is God intervening in the world that can get along just fine without Him, as if He were a blind watchmaker who had set the world in motion on its own. But the biblical God is the One Who stays involved with the creation, to the minutest detail. Infinite & infinitesimal; macro as well as micro.

Come to think of it, this naturalist idea of a self-sufficient world is also a religion of sorts. Everybody has a divinity belief of some kind; the naturalist divinity belief is that the physical world came from nothing & has always existed.
(snip)
-Andrew>>

22nd August 2002, 09:22 PM	#1
angelinthemorning Guest Posts: n/a	Explain miracles I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle.
angelinthemorning Guest Posts: n/a

22nd August 2002, 10:32 PM	#2
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	Something happens. People project their preconceptions and expectations onto it. Instant "miracle". You know, I got a picture of Elvis on a tortilla, once. Miraculously, it tasted just like the other ones.
evildave Guest Posts: n/a

22nd August 2002, 10:42 PM	#3
SortingItAllOut Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. Hello angelinthemorning! www.dictionary.com has this definition: "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." I'm certain there are a number of other definitions, but this one will do for my discussion. The key word in that definition is "appears" because the laws of nature are not strictly static. As humankind learns and discovers and tests and observes, these laws are developed and modified. Some of what appeared to be inexplicable a short hundred years ago is today common. From the Bible, the "bottomless baskets" of fish and bread would be an example of a miraculous event. Unlike the "clown car" trick that a circus might perform, where a dozen or more clowns file out of a small car, the "loaves and fishes" story in the Bible claims that god multiplied the food to feed an incredible number of people. Could this have been faked? Perhaps. Perhaps it never happened. But that would be an example of a miracle - creating food where it didn't exist. Of course, the "miraculousness" (not sure that is a word) of the event, if determined to be possible without "divine intervention" would quickly fade. I myself am not sure that anything is really miraculous. Does the lack of an explanation in the present necessitate that an event is miraculous? I wouldn't think so. Have a nice day and welcome to the forum! Sort
SortingItAllOut Guest Posts: n/a

22nd August 2002, 10:55 PM	#4
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Miracles are what Gods use to get people to sign up to thier religion.Whenever your god had special messages for people he would perform "miracles". This was a way of saying "this is your god speaking, who else could do that eh?" Sort of like Gods ID card. So it obviously had to be something that impressed people. "The miracle of the healing of the sunburn" would not have been very usefull, "the healing of the cripple" is better, "raising from the dead" now THAT has got to be impressive. Just about any self respecting god performs miracles. Its what gods do.....anyway, its what some men say that they have done and thats proof enough for quite a lot of people to sign up.....
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

23rd August 2002, 02:15 AM	#5
Bozotheda Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome.
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23rd August 2002, 05:30 AM	#6
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Re: Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by Bozotheda Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome. I agree with you about the physics stuff but do miracles have to have a beneficial outcome?....Is poxing a whole pile of heathens beneficial.........Hmmmmm actually, you're right, after all, they're only heathens.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

23rd August 2002, 06:36 AM	#7
Crossbow Seeking Honesty and Sanity Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,294	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. To: angelinthemorning Hello! "Angel in the Morning" has long been one of my favorite songs so I think it is great that you are using it as a handle. And as to your question, I am sorry, but this skeptic cannot help you. To explain, essentially the dictionary defines Miracles as an event provided by a deity (or deities). They are not the product of man, nature, or by combination of the two. Well, since I do not think that the universe contains a deity (or deities) and that everything that happens is consistent with basic physical laws, I conclude that there are no such things as Miracles. Now then, occasionally events occur that are extremely rare, misunderstood, or unusual but I do not think that these sort of stipulations makes these events a god induced Miracle.
	__________________ A man's best friend is his dogma.

23rd August 2002, 09:43 AM	#8
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,371	Re: Re: Explain miracles Bozotheda' definition of a miracle: Quote: Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics and has a beneficial outcome. This is the definition that should be used for a miracle, however in common usage, it often describes an event that has a very low probabability, such as recovering from a usually fatal disease or winning the lottery. I feel that this usage is incorrect, but people will persist in claiming "miracle" cures. An even worse usage of the word occurs when believers engage in pareidolia, an example of which is seeing the face of Jesus in a tortilla. This is nothing more than pattern recognition, and is not miraculous in any sense of the word, yet people often shell out bucks to see such things as the shroud of Turin. I think that for this discussion we would be best to confine ourselves to the definition proposed by Bozotheda.

23rd August 2002, 10:12 AM	#9
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,398	Hi Angel, I'm supposed to be leaving but had to answer your post. I bought a California lottery ticket today. The odds are something like 40+ million to one. Now if I win I will feel like it is a miracle As I should since it's about as likely that I'll get to date Faith Hill and Shania Twain (It could happen). It wouldn't be though. Just statistics. Most things that are seen as miracles are expected by those who understand statistics. I expect that someone will win the lottery sometime in the near future. If 10 million people fall out of a plane without parachutes a number of them will survive the fall. No miracle, just statistics.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

23rd August 2002, 11:59 AM	#10
Guest Posts: n/a	I've always liked David Hume's take on miracles. Also, why is a man recovering from the brink of death a miracle, but a perfectly healthy man dying for no discernable reason not one?
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23rd August 2002, 12:00 PM	#11
Guest Posts: n/a	I've always liked David Hume's take on miracles. Also, why is a man recovering from the brink of death a miracle, but a perfectly healthy man dying for no discernable reason not one?
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23rd August 2002, 12:39 PM	#12
Victor Danilchenko Renaissance Man Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 716	Nialscorva, Welcome to the party -- and nice opening! Yes, old Hume had said a lot of stuff that's useful and meaningful even today. His take on miracles is certainly a nice tweak to supernaturalists' noses.
	__________________ "Curiosity was framed -- ignorance killed the cat" -- Anonymous Ceterum censeo: veritas et libertas sunto ultra omnis

23rd August 2002, 12:49 PM	#13
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. Hi Angel in the morning, welcome to the forum. Brown originally posted this quote in some other thread. I've left Brown's comments since I think they sum it up. Quote: Thomas Paine, in "The Age of Reason," had this to say about miracles. He considered them to be incompatible with true religion: _________________________________________ Since, then, appearances are so capable of deceiving, and things not real have a strong resemblance to things that are, nothing can be more inconsistent than to suppose that the Almighty would make use of means such as are called miracles, that would subject the person who performed them to the suspicion of being an impostor, and the person who related them to be suspected of lying, and the doctrine intended to be supported thereby to be suspected as a fabulous invention. Of all the modes of evidence that ever were invented to obtain belief to any system or opinion to which the name of religion has been given, that of miracle, however successful the imposition may have been, is the most inconsistent. For, in the first place, whenever recourse is had to show, for the purpose of procuring that belief, (for a miracle, under any idea of the word, is a show), it implies a lameness or weakness in the doctrine that is preached. And, in the second place, it is degrading the Almighty into the character of a showman, playing tricks to amuse and make the people stare and wonder. It is also the most equivocal sort of evidence that can be set up; for the belief is not to depend upon the thing called a miracle, but upon the credit of the reporter who says that he saw it; and, therefore, the thing, were it true, would have no better chance of being believed than if it were a lie. Suppose I were to say, that when I sat down to write this book, a hand presented itself in the air, took up the pen, and wrote every word that is herein written; would anybody believe me? Certainly they would not. Would they believe me a whit the more if the thing had been a fact? Certainly they would not. Since, then, a real miracle, were it to happen, would be subject to the same fate as the falsehood, the inconsistency becomes the greater of supposing the Almighty would make use of means that would not answer the purpose for which they were intended, even if they were real. If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie. ... ... In every point of view in which those things called miracles can be placed and considered, the reality of them is improbable and their existence unnecessary. They would not, as before observed, answer any useful purpose, even if they were true; for it is more difficult to obtain belief to a miracle, than to a principle evidently moral without any miracle. Moral principle speaks universally for itself. Miracle could be but a thing of the moment, and seen but by a few; after this it requires a transfer of faith from God to man to believe a miracle upon man's report. Instead, therefore, of admitting the recitals of miracles as evidence of any system of religion being true, they ought to be considered as symptoms of its being fabulous. It is necessary to the full and upright character of truth that it rejects the crutch, and it is consistent with the character of fable to seek the aid that truth rejects. __________________________________________________ When I first read this argument, I did not perceive its full depth. But I came to believe that Paine made several valid points. Belief in miracles does not correspond to faith in a deity. Rather, it corresponds to faith in people. And yet people are so easily deceived, and so prone not to tell the truth, that it calls the validity of all claimed miracles into question. And when all is said and done, what is the point of a miracle, anyway? Even if it actually takes place, what is the point of faith healing?
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

23rd August 2002, 01:53 PM	#14
Pahansiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,380	Angelinthemorning asks. Quote: I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. Greetings Angelinthemorning, please know what I say is just my thoughts and I mean no disrespect. How would I define a miracle? An event that is the result of like all things causes and conditions being correct or what they were. It is very true that sometimes unexplained things do happen, unexpected events do occur. But our inability to explain such things does not prove the existence of a god or gods. Really it only proves that our knowledge is as yet incomplete. Before the development of modern medicine, back when people didn?t know what was the cause of sickness people believed that god or the gods sent diseases as a punishment. OK, some still do today. Now we know what causes such things and when we get sick, we take medicine or the right actions to help or cure it. In time when our knowledge of the world is more complete, we will be able to understand what causes unexplained phenomena, just as we can now understand what causes disease. I don't discount anything that I cannot prove either way but I also do not grasp to a simple answer or one I may personally want to be true. You may very well be right about God, it matters not at all to me, and it can have no effect on how I must live my life, what I must do to improve my actions and mind. A friend of mine told me after the 9-11 events in NYC that Jesus saved people and performed people and Buddha didn?t. I first explained Buddha was not in that business I asked him if the people at and above the crash site and the people on all planes there and at the other sites, were not good Christians and worth saving? No one on either plane lived nor did anyone at or above either impact site live. Were they not good? Did they not pray hard enough? The reason people lived was the causes and conditions were right for them to live. Just what I believe.
	__________________ "If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility."...H.W.Longfellow

23rd August 2002, 03:32 PM	#15
gentlehorse generally confused Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,131	Quote: angelinthemorning: I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. Hi, angel. I believe in God as well, which is to say that many of the good folks here consider me to be delusional and given to wishful thinking. Apparently, nothing I've been able to say thus far has provided them cause to reconsider their positions and so, in their eyes, by belief has no more validity than a belief in invisible unicorns or Santa. This is fine with me as I didn't come here to convert anyone anyway, but rather to exchange ideas and possibly learn a thing or two. With this in mind, I'd say that my time here has been well spent. The folks here will usually answer your questions to the best of their abilities. They will not generally take your feelings into consideration in doing so, though some are more diplomatic than others. A few, however, are downright rude, dismissive, arrogant, condescending, cynical, and hostile. If you stick around long enough, you're sure to meet all kinds. If nothing else, this forum provides access to a wonderful cross-section of intelligent, thoughtful people coming from a wide variety of backgrounds. If I were to try to define "miracle" I'd probably go with part of Bozotheda's definition: Quote: Basically any event that transgresses the laws of physics... I've never seen one, other than the one I see every morning when I open my eyes and start a new day. That's right. I consider the untire universe to be a miracle and my ability to perceive a small fraction of it a gift beyond words. But what would you expect from a delusional old rat like me?
	__________________ "Oh Holy gravity, the mother of all powers, what you do to us, the children of the stars" pillory "How can the third-person requirements of the scientific method be reconciled with the first-person nature of consciousness?" Win

23rd August 2002, 04:45 PM	#16
Bentspoon Thinker Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 197	Miracles I see miracles all the time - not by the conventional definition of the word but, emotionally, equivalent to any miracle referred to in religious history. Each heart transplant is a miracle the first hand transplant was a major miracle Man landing on the moon was a miracle the Hubbel telescope is a miracle an airliner is a miracle the space shuttle is a miracle I think you get the idea. I stand in awe of these achievements. I fail to understand why people will flock to a greasy smear on the side of the building but when Grandma lives another 15 years in the family due to a heart transplant ................ well, that's just boring science isn't it. Miracles and magical things are happening everywhere around us but people see anything connected to man's technology as mundane or not worthy of praise. Worse than that, technology gets a bad rap. When anything good comes from technology - God must have had a hand in it. My mother-in-law used to swoon at the "miracles" of Lourdes. I said, "yeah sure but when push comes to shove you will "worship at the halls of technology" and solicit the help of the "wizards of science"". Her husband's heart attck and her cancer proved me out. Of course she wanted to go to the hospital and Lourdes never came up ............. but she truly believes in the miracles there. I think not Anyway, I know it will raise a few eyebrows but when it comes to miracles I will take technology's over religion's anytime. Technology is doing wondrous things. Religious miracles pale by example. In fact, the only miracles that truly exist are those that technology has given us. And if it really came down to brass tacks, where the environment is failing and the sky is falling ........... I will take refuge with the technologists as opposed to those that would invoke a deity for a miracle. Those that would pray for salvation. Those that "believe" in religious miracles will be right there beside me too because they do know who really butters their bread. Man's achievements deserve more reverence Bentspoon

23rd August 2002, 06:59 PM	#17
angelinthemorning Guest Posts: n/a	Hello Thank you all so much for the responses to my question.Thanks also for the welcome.
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23rd August 2002, 07:16 PM	#18
SortingItAllOut Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Miracles Quote: Originally posted by Bentspoon I see miracles all the time - not by the conventional definition of the word but, emotionally, equivalent to any miracle referred to in religious history. Each heart transplant is a miracle the first hand transplant was a major miracle Man landing on the moon was a miracle the Hubbel telescope is a miracle an airliner is a miracle the space shuttle is a miracle I think you get the idea. I stand in awe of these achievements. I fail to understand why people will flock to a greasy smear on the side of the building but when Grandma lives another 15 years in the family due to a heart transplant ................ well, that's just boring science isn't it. Hello Bentspoon! It is true that man has made amazing strides over the years, specifically in the areas of medicine and transportation. Our ingenuity is quite a wonderful thing. Man sees a problem, a hurdle, an annoyance, a genetic defect, a physical or mental handicap and then tries to understand them and develop the solution. A reason that I question why some believe that "god's hand" is in the development of these new technologies is that the development often isn't a quick thing. Man generally doesn't just wake up one day and have a solution in his head. Often man errs and has to try multiple paths to find the correct one. Couple this with the idea that god has decided to reveal now the solution to a problem that has plagued mankind for decades, centuries, perhaps thousands of years. Why is that? Quote: Originally posted by Bentspoon In fact, the only miracles that truly exist are those that technology has given us. Bentspoon Sometimes things happen that people categorize as miracles. Sometimes technology has nothing to do with these "miracles." Sometimes, for example, the human body heals without a technological breakthrough. Is this "miraculous"? Who knows? The only thing I know is that some things we cannot currently explain. This doesn't in my opinion mean that a deity had his or hand in this event. Have a nice evening! Sort
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23rd August 2002, 08:42 PM	#19
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	This sort of feeds into the "Crediting God for all good things" topic. Why aren't there any "bad" miracles? As a matter of fact, there are a lot of things named "miracles" that are negative for someone. Plenty of battles where both sides were the same religion (give or take), yet something happened that benefitted one side, and it was claimed to be a miracle, even though to the other side it was a disaster. Naturally "god" is always on your side if you're going to go slaughter people across an artificially drawn boundary.
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23rd August 2002, 09:10 PM	#20
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,371	Quote: Originally posted by evildave Why aren't there any "bad" miracles? As a matter of fact, there are a lot of things named "miracles" that are negative for someone. Plenty of battles where both sides were the same religion (give or take), yet something happened that benefitted one side, and it was claimed to be a miracle, even though to the other side it was a disaster. Naturally "god" is always on your side if you're going to go slaughter people across an artificially drawn boundary. Absolutely right, evil one. For example, about a year ago a handful of fearless people armed only with box-cutters were able to strike fear into the hearts of every American. If that's not a miracle, I don't know what is.

23rd August 2002, 09:24 PM	#21
evildave Guest Posts: n/a	"Allah is great!" I seem to recall video of people dancing in the streets, too.
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11th February 2003, 07:54 AM	#22
TexasBEAST Guest Posts: n/a	I kinda like the definition given above of 'anything that appears to exceed the laws of nature". If it is perceived to exceed the expectations of the present, there is generally a rush to slap the label of "miracle" on it. (Even if your perceptions are absurdly misinformed or your expectations childishly low.) An airplane is a "miracle" to jungle natives. Not to me. A matter or relativity, at least in how you apply the term. In form, if not in fact. Interesting side note, in the New Testament, Iesous ("Jesus") told his mathetoi ("disciples") not to believe him because of the miracles he performed, because even the pagans could perform miracles and signs. He chided Tomas ("Thomas") because he demanded proof of the miracle of the resurrection, and said it would've been better if he had simply taken his word for it. That's "faith". Miracles are a sort of sign of some kind of power. But to expect a sign, a sort of proof, well, that's approaching science. (Maybe just "pseudo-science", but it's close.) Iesous couldn't have that. In terms of religion, miraculous indicators are good--blind faith is even better.
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11th February 2003, 08:25 AM	#23
specious_reasons Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,124	One book suggested to me was C.S. Lewis' Miracles, which is a philosophic analysis of miracles. Evidently, one of the things he attempts to show is that miracles have been and are occurring. Has anyone read this? Opinions? It's on my "to read" list. I am of the opinion that God has been pretty lacking in the miracle department in recent history. I've heard lots of excuses, but I haven't heard of any recent miracle that clearly shows itself as a supernatural event.
	__________________ ta- DAVE!!!

11th February 2003, 08:59 AM	#24
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. First you would have to show the skeptic a miracle, then await definition. To elaborate, if something is inexplicable, it's not a miracle, because "it's a miracle" would explain it. For example, Jesus H. Christ soaring through the air without an apparent mundane cause (such as a hang glider or rocket pack) would qualify as "miracle" if it's really Jesus. Otherwise it's just a paranormal phenominon, or simply a guy named "Jesus" on a hang glider soaring through the air.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

11th February 2003, 09:05 AM	#25
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: First you would have to show the skeptic a miracle, then await definition. To elaborate, if something is inexplicable, it's not a miracle, because "it's a miracle" would explain it. For example, Jesus H. Christ soaring through the air without an apparent mundane cause (such as a hang glider or rocket pack) would qualify as "miracle" if it's really Jesus. Otherwise it's just a paranormal phenominon, or simply a guy named "Jesus" on a hang glider soaring through the air. How about an Entire Universe magically appearing out of no where? Would that count as a miracle? How about a person who claimed that they possessed magical powers that allowed them to Disobey the very laws of Physics themselves? Would such an ability count as a miracle? What would be considered a "miracle" by an A-theistic religious fanatic such as yourself c4ts?
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

11th February 2003, 09:25 AM	#26
Frostbite Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal, Qc Posts: 986	If we could explain miracles they wouldn't be miracles anymore now would they?
	__________________ Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases: 1- It's completely impossible. 2- It's possible, but it's not worth doing. 3- I said it was a good idea all along. -Arthur C. Clarke

11th February 2003, 09:29 AM	#27
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: If we could explain miracles they wouldn't be miracles anymore now would they? Isn't that the same as saying that there are no miracles? I see your point though ... once you can explain a miracle it becomes logical ... just like a magic trick only seems magical to people who don't comprehend the logic of it.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

11th February 2003, 10:10 AM	#28
synaesthesia Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 195	Quote: Originally posted by Franko How about an Entire Universe magically appearing out of no where? Would that count as a miracle? That would count as a logical contradiction, since any 'no where' from which something can come would be included in the universe.
synaesthesia Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 195	__________________ Regards, Synaesthesia "We are at home with this simple image: what is dark and unknown stretches out before the monolithic front line of science while what has been acquired and understood constitutes its rear. But it really makes no difference whether the unknown lies in the lap of nature or, instead, is buried among the pages of worthless manuscripts read by no one; because an idea that has not entered the bloodstream of science, and does not circulate seminal in it, in practice, does not exist for us." -Stanislaw Lem

11th February 2003, 10:19 AM	#29
Pouli Guest Posts: n/a	I think this story gives my thoughts on “miracles”: Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles. 1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery. 2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B. Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ?
Pouli Guest Posts: n/a

11th February 2003, 04:09 PM	#30
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Quote: Originally posted by Pouli I think this story gives my thoughts on “miracles”: Two countries are at war for some time. Much death and destruction has happened on both sides for years. Lets name them A and B country. One clear morning two extraordinary but confirmed things happen that could be considered miracles. 1. A picture of a religious figure of a woman in a damp room, in a small town, in a certain province of country A, starts “weeping”. A little girl that was hit hard by a car in the same town survives after long hours of surgery. That example is possibly a mistake or hoax. It is not known if the two events are actually related, and the figure of a woman is a bit poorly defined. Sometimes anything that remotely resembles a woman in white is assumed to be the virgin mary when it is actually a blurry photo of a fence post... Quote: 2. A great “ball of fire” blasts a major city of country B obliterating in a flash of heat tens of thousands of lives and buildings and leading in a few days to the unconditional surrender of country B. That looks more like a deliberate bombing or coincidential meteor impact than a miracle. But if the ball were truly made of fire, and did not behave like a nuke or a meteor (for example, if it incinerated the city and did not leave a crater or release fallout), then it could be considered a miracle (among many other things). Quote: Now which of the two above is the “Real Miracle” for religious people of country A ? I'm afraid I cannot tell based on the information provided.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

11th February 2003, 05:30 PM	#31
Dub Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 247	Quote: Originally posted by Franko How about a person who claimed that they possessed magical powers that allowed them to Disobey the very laws of Physics themselves? That isnt a miracle, it's literally what youve typed. Just someone claiming they can do something which logically they shouldnt be able to do; i.e. just another wacko, and the reason the JREF still has its $1million after all these years.
Dub Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 247	__________________ "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." Sir Winston Churchill "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins "Our ignorance is God; what we know is science." Robert Ingersoll "The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry." Richard Dawkins "Paranormal phenomena have a habit of going away whenever they are tested under rigorous conditions. This is why the $1 million reward of James Randi is safe." Richard Dawkins

11th February 2003, 06:11 PM	#32
Hazelip Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 497	Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by angelinthemorning I believe in God. Would like to know how skeptics define a miracle. A miracle is something that has never happened. Ever.
Hazelip Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 497

13th February 2003, 12:03 PM	#33
synaesthesia Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 195	Re: Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by Hazelip A miracle is something that has never happened. Ever. So tomorrow is a miracle?
synaesthesia Thinker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 195	__________________ Regards, Synaesthesia "We are at home with this simple image: what is dark and unknown stretches out before the monolithic front line of science while what has been acquired and understood constitutes its rear. But it really makes no difference whether the unknown lies in the lap of nature or, instead, is buried among the pages of worthless manuscripts read by no one; because an idea that has not entered the bloodstream of science, and does not circulate seminal in it, in practice, does not exist for us." -Stanislaw Lem

13th February 2003, 02:35 PM	#34
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Re: Re: Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by synaesthesia So tomorrow is a miracle? For the duration of two days, after which tomorrow becomes yesterday.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

13th February 2003, 02:37 PM	#35
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Re: Re: Re: Re: Explain miracles Quote: Originally posted by c4ts For the duration of two days, after which tomorrow becomes yesterday. Actually, after only one day, wouldn't it become today?