Fasten your seatbelts

[SquishyDave]

Anyone ever heard of Elaine Hollingsworth?

She writes this book http://www.doctorsaredangerous.com/book.html

and my uncle has read her chapter on the evils of soy, and he was wondering if soy really does cause cancer, and memory loss etc etc.

So I have been charged to research soy, and see if there really is a wealth of knowledge that it is bad, but the soy makers are just keeping a lid on the information.

When I have time I will hit pubmed, but in the mean time I thought you guys might like to see what she's on about, and if you have any input I would love to hear it.

[Zep]

Initial impression: Yet another SEQ kook.

She has no qualifications at all as a researcher (she was an actress years ago). She is trumpeting other people's hearsay on the research. She pushes a heap of anecdotes and letters as "proof" she is right. She is a darling of the altmed for her "stand". Maybe her contentions are right, maybe they are wrong, but there is no genuine scientific research presented (via her website) to make a decision clear. And mostly, she is trying to sell her book a lot.

I continue to contend that it all comes down to the money for these people.

[Nex]

Looks like another book that tells you how to cure/prevent everything under the sun and be damned near immortal.

Yep. Enterprising old gal, ain't she?

[DeVega]

in the 'cancer world' - as I mentioned in my posting re herbs, it all comes down to naturally occuring phyto-oestrogens. If you have a cancer tumour which is ER+ oestrogens of any kind 'feed' the tumour. Soya of any description IS high in this natural oestrogens and so, most oncologists are very wary about their patients using soy products.

However, it's not so clear-cut as all that because many people DO switch to soy when in treatment because many start a dairy-free regime (mostly thanks to Prof. Jane Plant - who wrote another controversial book called "Your Life in their Hands" which advocates a dairy free diet & plenty of soy - she based her ideas on the fact that Japan & China have the lowest incidences of BC in the world. I think the idea was not without merit but the book was written before the current research on soy...)

It is an emotive issue. Personally as a survivor of an ER+ tumour I only use soy & soy products in moderation...

HTH
DeVega

PS: Haven't read Elaine Hollingsworth's book - but anyone who deliberately titles her book 'Doctors Are Dangerous' is setting out her stall as a money-grabbing quack IMHO.

[DeVega]

I have to say that this stupid, spiteful bloody idea that doctors and oncologists are holding back information or even the CURE for cancer because of multi-national drugs companies is insideous and keeps rearing its nasty head.

It does a GREAT dis-service to the marvellous physicians who work tirelessly and dedicate their lives to caring for cancer sufferers & makes me really angry on their behalf. There is no conspiricy in the medical world - if there was a cure, we WOULD have it! (These people have familes too...)

Soz to derail topic and go off on one... (Not your fault Dave!)

DeVega

[Ashles]

Hear hear DeVega!

Why do people have such an innate and stupid need to create conspiracies?

Because, of course, multi-national drug companies wouldn't make much money from a cure for cancer would they.

[littleblackpistol]

Quote:

However, it's not so clear-cut as all that because many people DO switch to soy when in treatment because many start a dairy-free regime (mostly thanks to Prof. Jane Plant - who wrote another controversial book called "Your Life in their Hands" which advocates a dairy free diet & plenty of soy - she based her ideas on the fact that Japan & China have the lowest incidences of BC in the world.

The Japanese diet often comes up as evidence that soy helps to protect women from breast cancer, however, it doesn't take into account either the type or the quantities of soy consumed in Asia.

Japanese people's diet is not based around soy - their intake of soy is mostly confined to fermented soy products such as miso, natto and soy sauce, and in small quantities, while for westerners the vast majority of soy products available are non-fermented and are used in comparitively large amounts as replacements for entire food groups such as meat or dairy. In fact, it's difficult to purchase the soy milk or soy meat-replaceemt productsthat are common in the USA and Europe, in Japan - certainly when I lived there I never saw any in the supermarkets and the only people I knew who used them were vegetarian westerners who had to have them imported from the USA, at some expense.

It's more likely the low incidence of some cancers in Japan in based on the overall health benefits of a traditional diet, which is low in saturated fat, rather than the miraculous effect of a single food item, whether it be soy or green tea .

[DeVega]

... in fact your post made me chuckle at the memory of my DH - who is a complete cheese fiend - paying a king's ransom for a tiny bit of cheese when we were staying in Japan for a few months! I think, as you say, it has to be a combination of things - green tea has to be pretty beneficial - all those anti-oxidents etc...

It's funny how people fix onto one thing and tend not to see the 'Big Picture' huh?

Best
DeVega

[Jorghnassen]

I have to agree with littleblackpistol too. I'd like to add that, apparently, it's very hard to be vegetarian in Japan.

[littleblackpistol]

Quote:

... in fact your post made me chuckle at the memory of my DH - who is a complete cheese fiend - paying a king's ransom for a tiny bit of cheese when we were staying in Japan for a few months!

Ha! I don't think I really had a good piece of cheese in 3 1/2 years there. I recall a French friend getting her family to send her out a box of French cheeses and it getting stuck in customs so long that when it finally turned up everything was either stale, hard, or mould-encrusted. Series of heartbreaks, trying to get your favourite western foods there. I knew a house where people actually got intoa fist-fight over the last tin of baked beans .........

Quote:

It's funny how people fix onto one thing and tend not to see the 'Big Picture' huh?

For sure. I actually learned my lesson about blithely ascribing cancer or the lack of it to single food sources when I had a cancer specialist as a student. One time we were chatting about his work and I mentioned something about salty foods possibly'causing' the high rate of stomach cancer in Japan. He gave me a VERY long-suffering look and lanched into a lecture about how foods don't 'cause' cancer so much as possibly exacerbate conditions that lead to it. I've kept that in mind every time I read another 'X causes/prevents cancer' story in the media.

Quote:

I'd like to add that, apparently, it's very hard to be vegetarian in Japan.

Contrary to popular belief, it is, very much so. The concept is not really understood or practiced widely over there. You can ask for meat-free food but more often than not you'll be met with amusement or incomprehension and get at the very least, fish bits added to your meal anyway. Most foods, even tofu, are prepared with a a base of fish stock, so vegans are in real trouble.

I actually worked for the owner of Osaka's only (at the time) vegetarian restaurant for a while, and though he would extoll the virtues of a vegetarian diet at great length, when I asked him how long he'd been a vegetarian himself, he looked at me as if I was mad, and said, "Of course I'm not a vegetarian - meat is good for you too!" He had a point - he was one of the most fit and energetic old geezers I've ever met. The older people there are generally pretty fit and active - I think it's partly the traditional diet, partly having access to very good health care and partly the fact that most live with the family unit rather than being marginalised and shunted off into nursing homes in their later years.

[Ashles]

Thanks littleblackpistol for the information.

I really badly want to visit Japan and, although I personally will eat just about anything that moves on the planet (except tuna) my girlfriend is a vegetarian so knowing these things is useful.

I had this vague impression that the Japanese diet was very veggie based, probably because is it always touted as being so healthy and many people (myself included), mistakenly tend to equate the two. I'm glad to hear it's not as meat is darned tasty.

And this

Quote:

I actually worked for the owner of Osaka's only (at the time) vegetarian restaurant for a while, and though he would extoll the virtues of a vegetarian diet at great length, when I asked him how long he'd been a vegetarian himself, he looked at me as if I was mad, and said, "Of course I'm not a vegetarian - meat is good for you too!" He had a point - he was one of the most fit and energetic old geezers I've ever met.

made me laugh out loud.

I've always felt meat was good for you.
Particularly sausages.

[Loon]

Quote:

Originally posted by littleblackpistol
[b]Japanese people's diet is not based around soy - their intake of soy is mostly confined to fermented soy products such as miso, natto and soy sauce, and in small quantities, while for westerners the vast majority of soy products available are non-fermented and are used in comparitively large amounts as replacements for entire food groups such as meat or dairy.[/b

Maybe this is a regional thing. People seem to eat a fair bit of tofu in Tokyo. On the other hand, as you noted, they tend to season it with animal products. (Or this could be my own buying habits interfering with my view.)

It is very easy to avoid red meat and even chicken. Avoiding fish is near impossible. There is a group of foreigners here who are dedicated to doing so- they run regular ads in the weekly rag.

Quote:

Originally posted by littleblackpistol
In fact, it's difficult to purchase the soy milk or soy meat-replaceemt productsthat are common in the USA and Europe

There aren't so many meat substitutes (none?) but there are a lot of soy milk type products. The flavored ones tend not to taste as good as the ones I find in the US, though.


Western food has gotten more available here. Many kinds of cheese are available (along with plenty of cheesefoods and artificial cheese-esque substances). I have one friend who even manages to have lamb regularly.

Quote:

Originally posted by littleblackpistol
The older people there are generally pretty fit and active - I think it's partly the traditional diet, partly having access to very good health care and partly the fact that most live with the family unit rather than being marginalised and shunted off into nursing homes in their later years

Some of them do stay pretty spry. I'd question the bit about the health care (cancer treatment here is first rate. Everything else is... sub-par.) I can't say how many live with family now- it seems that the trend is for nuclear families to live together. Of course, much of this could be due to differences in region and time.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles
I'm glad to hear it's not as meat is darned tasty.

Right, but it's not at all high in red meat or even really chicken. Most of the meat is seafood, at least traditionally. So we're not talking sausages or steak.