Zero Point Evergy

30th November 2004, 06:39 AM

Is Zero Point Energy a legitimate source of energy?

geni · 30th November 2004, 06:47 AM

unless you have a black hole handy no.

wollery · 30th November 2004, 07:08 AM

Umm, what do you mean by legitimate?

30th November 2004, 07:11 AM

I meant that not everything on the internet is real and some people could make things up online and then post what they make up on websites.

Rolfe · 30th November 2004, 07:13 AM

Zero point energy was the alleged source of the energy used by that "water fuel cell" thing that was supposed to mean we'd all be able to run our cars on water, wasn't it? There was an admiral believed it would be ideal for battleships.

An actual working model was never present when any journalist showed up. The "inventor" ended up in jail, I think. So, no, not legitimate.

Rolfe.

geni · 30th November 2004, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Zero point energy was the alleged source of the energy used by that "water fuel cell" thing that was supposed to mean we'd all be able to run our cars on water, wasn't it? There was an admiral believed it would be ideal for battleships.

There are varius means of zero point energy. In the simplest form it just means energy comeing from nothing. A lot of the current ideas would fall under the banned of vacume energy. The closest to a legit way of getting zero point energy that I know of involves hawking radition however in that case it is not really zero point.

RussDill · 30th November 2004, 09:21 AM

In QM, there is the heisenberg uncertainty principle. One of the consequences is that you can never have zero energy, no matter how empty and devoid you think you made a vacuum, there will still not only be radiation, but virtual particals.

Pseudoscientists and perpetual motion peddlers have grasped onto this, called it "zero point energy" and claimed the vacuum of space is their source of energy, which, if you read the equation for the heisernberg uncerntainty principle, is clearly BS.

Ipecac · 30th November 2004, 09:40 AM

Zero point energy worked very well for Syndrome when fighting the Incredibles. Stopped them in their tracks every time.

Oh, wait. That was a movie. A GREAT movie, but still a movie.

30th November 2004, 10:13 AM

Maybe someone in the FUTURE could figure out a way to make mini primordial black holes artificially and generate Hawking Radiation that way and then use the energy from that to have as a power source but right now, there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole. That technology could be used thousands or millions of years in the future once people do more research on mini primordial black holes and how they are created in space. If we find one out there, then people could probably make Hawking Radiation using a mini primoridal black hole that they might find. Kip Throne has said in his book "Black Holes And Time Warps" in the biginning of his book that future civilizations in space could harness the electrical energy from huge black holes that are out there, but I think that they could also use tiny black holes too.

RussDill · 30th November 2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian
Maybe someone in the FUTURE could figure out a way to make mini primordial black holes artificially and generate Hawking Radiation that way and then use the energy from that to have as a power source but right now, there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole. That technology could be used thousands or millions of years in the future once people do more research on mini primordial black holes and how they are created in space. If we find one out there, then people could probably make Hawking Radiation using a mini primoridal black hole that they might find. Kip Throne has said in his book "Black Holes And Time Warps" in the biginning of his book that future civilizations in space could harness the electrical energy from huge black holes that are out there, but I think that they could also use tiny black holes too.

You'd wouldn't be making energy from nothing. At best, you'd be converting matter to energy. I'm not sure where you are getting statements like "there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole", or how they would relate to the creation of such an energy source.

30th November 2004, 10:21 AM

You'd wouldn't be making energy from nothing. At best, you'd be converting matter to energy. I'm not sure where you are getting statements like "there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole", or how they would relate to the creation of such an energy source.

The gravitons could probably warp spacetime so that a black hole could be created.

RussDill · 30th November 2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian
The gravitons could probably warp spacetime so that a black hole could be created.

I'm not sure if any of the theoritical models for the graviton actually have that mediator doing any warping. If gravitons are the mediator of the gravitational force, all they would seem to do would be to pull matter towards you, which wouldn't be all that usefull when forming a black hole.

Now would would be usefull is dark energy, the force that seem to be pushing the universe apart. Harness that, and you could push matter together to form a blackhole.

corplinx · 30th November 2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian
Is Zero Point Energy a legitimate source of energy?

Show me some zero point energy and I'll let you know.

NarrMaster · 30th November 2004, 11:18 AM

My take:

Is it real? Probably.

Is it extractable? Probably not.

RussDill · 30th November 2004, 11:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy

30th November 2004, 06:39 AM	#1
Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Zero Point Evergy Is Zero Point Energy a legitimate source of energy?
Ian Guest Posts: n/a

30th November 2004, 07:08 AM	#3
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,332	Umm, what do you mean by legitimate?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

30th November 2004, 07:11 AM	#4
Ian Guest Posts: n/a	zero point energy I meant that not everything on the internet is real and some people could make things up online and then post what they make up on websites.
Ian Guest Posts: n/a

30th November 2004, 07:13 AM	#5
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,405	Zero point energy was the alleged source of the energy used by that "water fuel cell" thing that was supposed to mean we'd all be able to run our cars on water, wasn't it? There was an admiral believed it would be ideal for battleships. An actual working model was never present when any journalist showed up. The "inventor" ended up in jail, I think. So, no, not legitimate. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2004, 09:21 AM	#7
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,348	In QM, there is the heisenberg uncertainty principle. One of the consequences is that you can never have zero energy, no matter how empty and devoid you think you made a vacuum, there will still not only be radiation, but virtual particals. Pseudoscientists and perpetual motion peddlers have grasped onto this, called it "zero point energy" and claimed the vacuum of space is their source of energy, which, if you read the equation for the heisernberg uncerntainty principle, is clearly BS.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

30th November 2004, 06:47 AM	#2
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,639	unless you have a black hole handy no.

30th November 2004, 07:22 AM	#6
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,639	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Zero point energy was the alleged source of the energy used by that "water fuel cell" thing that was supposed to mean we'd all be able to run our cars on water, wasn't it? There was an admiral believed it would be ideal for battleships. There are varius means of zero point energy. In the simplest form it just means energy comeing from nothing. A lot of the current ideas would fall under the banned of vacume energy. The closest to a legit way of getting zero point energy that I know of involves hawking radition however in that case it is not really zero point.

30th November 2004, 09:40 AM	#8
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	Zero point energy worked very well for Syndrome when fighting the Incredibles. Stopped them in their tracks every time. Oh, wait. That was a movie. A GREAT movie, but still a movie.
Ipecac Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,852	__________________ www.taste-of-ipecac.blogspot.com

30th November 2004, 10:13 AM	#9
Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Zero Point Energy Maybe someone in the FUTURE could figure out a way to make mini primordial black holes artificially and generate Hawking Radiation that way and then use the energy from that to have as a power source but right now, there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole. That technology could be used thousands or millions of years in the future once people do more research on mini primordial black holes and how they are created in space. If we find one out there, then people could probably make Hawking Radiation using a mini primoridal black hole that they might find. Kip Throne has said in his book "Black Holes And Time Warps" in the biginning of his book that future civilizations in space could harness the electrical energy from huge black holes that are out there, but I think that they could also use tiny black holes too.
Ian Guest Posts: n/a

30th November 2004, 10:16 AM	#10
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,348	Re: Zero Point Energy Quote: Originally posted by Ian Maybe someone in the FUTURE could figure out a way to make mini primordial black holes artificially and generate Hawking Radiation that way and then use the energy from that to have as a power source but right now, there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole. That technology could be used thousands or millions of years in the future once people do more research on mini primordial black holes and how they are created in space. If we find one out there, then people could probably make Hawking Radiation using a mini primoridal black hole that they might find. Kip Throne has said in his book "Black Holes And Time Warps" in the biginning of his book that future civilizations in space could harness the electrical energy from huge black holes that are out there, but I think that they could also use tiny black holes too. You'd wouldn't be making energy from nothing. At best, you'd be converting matter to energy. I'm not sure where you are getting statements like "there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole", or how they would relate to the creation of such an energy source.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

30th November 2004, 10:21 AM	#11
Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Zero Point Energy You'd wouldn't be making energy from nothing. At best, you'd be converting matter to energy. I'm not sure where you are getting statements like "there is no way to make gravitons in the laboratory that could be used to make a black hole", or how they would relate to the creation of such an energy source. The gravitons could probably warp spacetime so that a black hole could be created.
Ian Guest Posts: n/a

30th November 2004, 10:25 AM	#12
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,348	Re: Zero Point Energy Quote: Originally posted by Ian The gravitons could probably warp spacetime so that a black hole could be created. I'm not sure if any of the theoritical models for the graviton actually have that mediator doing any warping. If gravitons are the mediator of the gravitational force, all they would seem to do would be to pull matter towards you, which wouldn't be all that usefull when forming a black hole. Now would would be usefull is dark energy, the force that seem to be pushing the universe apart. Harness that, and you could push matter together to form a blackhole.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

30th November 2004, 10:50 AM	#13
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Re: Zero Point Evergy Quote: Originally posted by Ian Is Zero Point Energy a legitimate source of energy? Show me some zero point energy and I'll let you know.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

30th November 2004, 11:18 AM	#14
NarrMaster Scholar Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 55	My take: Is it real? Probably. Is it extractable? Probably not.
NarrMaster Scholar Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 55	__________________ <SMALL>TUCKER CARLSON: You had John Kerry on your show and you sniff his throne and you're accusing us of partisan hackery? JON STEWART: Absolutely. CARLSON: You've got to be kidding me. He comes on and you... STEWART: You're on CNN. The show that leads into me is puppets making crank phone calls. What is wrong with you? - 10/15/04, Crossfire- CNN</SMALL>

30th November 2004, 11:22 AM	#15
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,348	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_point_energy
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep