Poll: 44% in US say restrict Muslims

HarryKeogh · 18th December 2004, 05:53 AM

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6729916/

Quote:

ITHACA, N.Y. - Nearly half of all Americans believe the U.S. government should restrict the civil liberties of Muslim-Americans, according to a nationwide poll.

The survey conducted by Cornell University also found that Republicans and people who described themselves as highly religious were more apt to support curtailing Muslimsâ€™ civil liberties than Democrats or people who are less religious.

And I bet 0% of respondents believed their civil rights should be curbed more than any other person.

So much for learning lessons from America's historical discriminatory policies.

shanek · 18th December 2004, 06:27 AM

This is exactly why our founders didn't want a democracy.

Donks · 18th December 2004, 06:30 AM

For more info and the full report, here.

While this is not all that surprising (at least to me), the item I find most distrurbing is the 27% who think muslims "should be required to register their whereabouts with the federal governement."

At least the only group of people had a majority support for that item were the highly religious who pay a lot of attention to tv news.

Ladewig · 18th December 2004, 07:19 AM

Edit: I asked a simple question, looked up the answer, and then realized it was kind of a stupid question so I removed it.

. . . . . . . . . . . .

Response to the poll: Yikes!

Regnad Kcin · 18th December 2004, 09:17 AM

I'm certain there's no risk of them being put in relocation camps or anything. That'd never happen.

Ed · 18th December 2004, 11:40 AM

I have been looking for the actual wording of the poll. Frankly, without knowing that there is no way to even vaguely interpret the results.

CFLarsen · 18th December 2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
This is exactly why our founders didn't want a democracy.

How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again?

Mycroft · 18th December 2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I have been looking for the actual wording of the poll. Frankly, without knowing that there is no way to even vaguely interpret the results.

Here it is, in PDF format.

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf

Ed · 18th December 2004, 01:14 PM

Thank you, Mycroft. BTW, the survey was not attached.

Quote:

TableÂŸ7ÂŸ
PublicÂŸSupportÂŸforÂŸRestrictionsÂŸonÂŸMuslimÂŸAm ericansÂŸStatementÂŸ
%ÂŸAgree

AllÂŸMuslimÂŸAmericansÂŸshouldÂŸbeÂŸrequiredÂŸtoÂŸ registerÂŸtheirÂŸwhereaboutsÂŸwithÂŸtheÂŸfederalÂŸ government.ÂŸ27ÂŸ

MosquesÂŸshouldÂŸbeÂŸcloselyÂŸmonitoredÂŸandÂŸsurv eilledÂŸbyÂŸU.S.ÂŸlawÂŸenforcementÂŸagencies.ÂŸ26Â Ÿ

U.S.ÂŸgovernmentÂŸagenciesÂŸshouldÂŸprofileÂŸcitiz ensÂŸasÂŸpotentialÂŸthreatsÂŸbasedÂŸonÂŸbeingÂŸMus limÂŸorÂŸhavingÂŸMiddleÂŸEasternÂŸheritage.ÂŸ22ÂŸ

MuslimÂŸcivicÂŸandÂŸvolunteerÂŸorganizationsÂŸshou ldÂŸbeÂŸinfiltratedÂŸbyÂŸundercoverÂŸlawÂŸenforcem entÂŸagentsÂŸtoÂŸkeepÂŸwatchÂŸonÂŸtheirÂŸactiities ÂŸandÂŸfundraising.ÂŸ29ÂŸ

AgreedÂŸwithÂŸnoneÂŸofÂŸtheÂŸstatementsÂŸ48

ÂŸAgreedÂŸwithÂŸoneÂŸstatementÂŸ15ÂŸ

AgreedÂŸwithÂŸtwoÂŸorÂŸmoreÂŸstatementsÂŸ29ÂŸ

So, 42 % of Americans agree with one or more of these statements. So?

They also say this

Quote:

AttentionÂ_toÂ_TVÂ_newsÂ_wasÂ_assessedÂ_byÂ_asking Â_respondentsÂ_twoÂ_separateÂ_questionsÂ_regarding Â_howÂ_muchÂ_attentionÂ_theyÂ_paidÂ_toÂ_newsÂ_aout Â_nationalÂ_politicsÂ_andÂ_toÂ_theÂ_U.S.Â_WarÂ_onÂ _Terror.Â_BothÂ_measuresÂ_wereÂ_addedÂ_toÂ_createÂ _anÂ_overallÂ_attentionÂ_measure.Â_RespondentsÂ_we reÂ_thenÂ_segmentedÂ_intoÂ_low,Â_moderate,Â_andÂ_h ighÂ_levelsÂ_ofÂ_attentionÂ_toÂ_TVÂ_news.Â_

They are operationally defining TV News as something narrower than TV news. A nit, but a bit sloppy. What they are really saying, I think, is that people who differentially consume information on politics and the WOT behave differently than others. One might say that these people know more and respond thus. Or one might say that the consumption is an effect, not a cause of the attitudes. As it is, it is in the "nice to know" catagory.

Mycroft · 18th December 2004, 01:35 PM

It took me a while to figure out where the got the 44% figure, it seems to require some interpretation of table 7.

Quote:

All Muslim Americans should be required
to register their wherabouts with the
federal government: 27%

Mosques should be closely monitored and
surveilled by U.S. law enforcement agencies: 26%

U.S. government agencies should profile
citizens as potential threats based on being
Muslim or having Middle Eastern heritage: 22%

Muslim civic and volunteer organizations
should be infiltrated by undercover law
enforcement agents to keep watch on their
activities and fundraising: 29%

Agree with none of the statements: 48%

Agree with one statement: 15%

Agree with two or more statements: 29%

So assuming those that agreed with two or more statements are not also included with those that agree with only one statement, we get the 44% by adding the two.

Which frankly makes me skeptical of the survey. If 48% didn't agree with any of these statements, what happened to the other 8%? Did they not make it to the end of the survey? If so, why were they counted at all?

Also, I'm having a hard time understanding a whopping 27% agreeing that all Muslims should have to to register their wherabouts with the federal government, yet only 29% agreed to two or more statements overall. It doesn't seem natural that anyone would agree to something so draconian without also agreeing to nearly everything else, and that doesn't leave room for anyone agreeing to two lesser restrictions without agreeing to registering Muslims.

I think I'd have to see the souce data before I could accept this as true.

Ed · 18th December 2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft
It took me a while to figure out where the got the 44% figure, it seems to require some interpretation of table 7.

I think I'd have to see the souce data before I could accept this as true.

But it sounds good for people that want to say "look at how nasty those Americans are".

re. the numbers. The 27% probably would agree with most of the other things, and the number for those who agree with 2+ is higher than 27%. OK so far. But it is a bit problematic, I think, as you point out.

8% fall out? Odd. Usually they account for 100% with a DK/Refused line.

Mycroft · 18th December 2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
re. the numbers. The 27% probably would agree with most of the other things, and the number for those who agree with 2+ is higher than 27%. OK so far. But it is a bit problematic, I think, as you point out.

I agree, but even if we accept that I have a problem with the interpretation of the rest of the numbers. If itâ€™s supposed to show how bad we are to Muslims, consider the following:

If we place the numbers in context of Christian terrorism (the right to life crowd), then most of the results make sense. The 27% being registered with the government is absurd no matter what group we are talking about, but the other questions?

How many people would support monitoring and surveillance of churches known to be associated with groups that have bombed abortion clinics? Would it be more or less than 26%?

How many people would be in favor of profiling potential right-to-life terrorists based of affiliation with said churches? More or less than 22%?

If some Christian right-to-life charities had been caught funneling money to fugitives suspected of such terrorism, or groups known to be linked to such terrorism, how many people would support infiltration of said organizations by undercover law enforcement agents? More or less than 29%?

I think if we change the religion, none of that seems so unreasonable. If abortion clinic bombing were the threat today as it was in decades past, I think I would support all those measures except the registration.

HarryKeogh · 18th December 2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again?

Aside from trying to pick a fight with Shanek what's the point of your question?

I, for one, am glad that the United States is a constitutional republic and not a true democracy.

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th December 2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again?

You are so evil!

CFLarsen · 18th December 2004, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
Aside from trying to pick a fight with Shanek what's the point of your question?

I, for one, am glad that the United States is a constitutional republic and not a true democracy.

That may be so. However, this thread is about the rising intolerance in the US, not about what political philosophy is better than another.

Shanek has to use every subject for an excuse to give a political speech, despite the fact that his politics command 0% in the elections.

Yes, this poll is highly disturbing. It shows how well on the way the US has come to a religious tyranny.

So, what are Americans going to do about it? I am sure Europeans could come up with some advice (since we've had our shares of religious tyrannies), but that never seems to go down well.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
That may be so. However, this thread is about the rising intolerance in the US, not about what political philosophy is better than another.

Shanek has to use every subject for an excuse to give a political speech, despite the fact that his politics command 0% in the elections.

Yes, this poll is highly disturbing. It shows how well on the way the US has come to a religious tyranny.

So, what are Americans going to do about it? I am sure Europeans could come up with some advice (since we've had our shares of religious tyrannies), but that never seems to go down well.

Well from the way past threads Denmarks comes off much more as a religious tyranny than USA. What with state religion, having a monarchy and limiting rights to foreigners.

Yeah, I can't wait for that enlightenment to come to the USA.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Well from the way past threads Denmarks comes off much more as a religious tyranny than USA. What with state religion, having a monarchy and limiting rights to foreigners.

Yeah, I can't wait for that enlightenment to come to the USA.

Me neither. Remember, I've lived in the US. I'm taking a wild guess here, but you have never actually been to Denmark, have you?

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Me neither. Remember, I've lived in the US. I'm taking a wild guess here, but you have never actually been to Denmark, have you?

You right, I have not been to Denmark. So I won't comment on the people. However, we're talking opinon of average US person vs. Denmark law. I don't need to visit Denmark to know it has a state religion and monarchy.

And shanek correctly pointed out that if this were a pure democracy majority opinion would be law.

The Central Scrutinizer · 19th December 2004, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
So, what are Americans going to do about it?

Kill the muslims? Then there would be none left to restrict!

The Fool · 19th December 2004, 01:10 AM

gee I wonder where people get exposed to the sort of hate rants that encourage these sort of attitudes?

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
You right, I have not been to Denmark. So I won't comment on the people. However, we're talking opinon of average US person vs. Denmark law. I don't need to visit Denmark to know it has a state religion and monarchy.

You have to visit Denmark to know how this state religion and monarchy works. You obviously don't know from reading brief Internet articles.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
And shanek correctly pointed out that if this were a pure democracy majority opinion would be law.

Really? Since when is 44% a majority? 48% says that no civil liberties should be restricted.

What are you going to do about this? Is it a good thing that the civil liberties of Muslims are restricted? If not, what will you do to prevent it?

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
gee I wonder where people get exposed to the sort of hate rants that encourage these sort of attitudes?

The Outback?

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Kill the muslims? Then there would be none left to restrict!

Atheists. Don't forget what Bush Sr. said.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
The Outback?

The media. Read the article:

Quote:

Researchers also found that respondents who paid more attention to television news were more likely to fear terrorist attacks and support limiting the rights of Muslim-Americans.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
You have to visit Denmark to know how this state religion and monarchy works. You obviously don't know from reading brief Internet articles.

No I don't, it's rather obvious.

Quote:

Really? Since when is 44% a majority? 48% says that no civil liberties should be restricted.

What are you going to do about this? Is it a good thing that the civil liberties of Muslims are restricted? If not, what will you do to prevent it?

What are we going to do about what, opinion? Well seeing as how we have free speech nothing we can do about that.

As for prevention, well we have this constitution thing.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
The media. Read the article:

That was a joke aimed at people in America. I though you were familiar with the culture?

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
No I don't, it's rather obvious.

No, it isn't. I'm not the only Dane who has told people here how wrong their perception of Denmark is.

Or perhaps we are all wrong? Indoctrinated into delivering the state doctrine?

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
What are we going to do about what, opinion? Well seeing as how we have free speech nothing we can do about that.

As for prevention, well we have this constitution thing.

Which can be changed. So, you will do nothing?

Kerberos · 19th December 2004, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron

No I don't, it's rather obvious. [/b]

OK first, Shanek then you, Why don't you educate us Danes about our monachy and state religion? It might be amusing.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Which can be changed. So, you will do nothing?

Until the part of constitution that protects US citizens from losing their libery is changed I don't see what I need to do.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Until the part of constitution that protects US citizens from losing their libery is changed I don't see what I need to do.

At which time, it will be too late.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kerberos
OK first, Shanek thehn you, Why don't you educate us Danes about our monachy and state religion? It might be amusing.

Well you have a state religion and a monarchy...I don't see where the disconnect from what I said to reality is.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Well you have a state religion and a monarchy...I don't see where the disconnect from what I said to reality is.

Repeating mantra here. Argue your case.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Repeating mantra here. Argue your case.

?

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
?

Look, Danes know that we have a state religion and a monarchy.

Please educate us on how that influence our lives.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Look, Danes know that we have a state religion and a monarchy.

Good, perhaps you can get rid of it then.

Kerberos · 19th December 2004, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Well you have a state religion and a monarchy...I don't see where the disconnect from what I said to reality is.

That you presented this as evidence that Denmark was a religious tyranny, or at least more of it than the US. I can see how you might think a state religion makes us a religious tyranny, especialy since you know nothing about how it actually works, but I'm really curious how having a monarchy makes us a religious tyrani, so educate me. I'd also appreciate if you'd told me which aspects on the state church you found particuarly represive., but the monachy part really got me wondering.

Kerberos · 19th December 2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Good, perhaps you can get rid of it then.

I'd love to, but the majority likes them so I can't. Also I haven't bothered to put any effort into fighting it, since I believed it didn't interfere with my life in any significant way untill you told me otherwise. Now if you'd just tell me exactlyhow it supresses me, so much so I can go out and explain it to other people I'd be forever gratefull.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Good, perhaps you can get rid of it then.

Argue why it is so bad, don't just tell us it's bad and that we should get rid of it.

Grammatron · 19th December 2004, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kerberos
That you presented this as evidence that Denmark was a religious tyranny, or at least more of it than the US. I can see how you might think a state religion makes us a religious tyranny, especialy since you know nothing about how it actually works, but I'm really curious how having a monarchy makes us a religious tyrani, so educate me. I'd also appreciate if you'd told me which aspects on the state church you found particuarly represive., but the monachy part really got me wondering.

Well CFL claimed US is become a religious tyranny, I merely pointed out that Denmark would be a far better candidate for such a title than USA seeing as it has a state religion. Merely pointing out that before he can go off on a country like USA perhaps the one he lives could at least be more forward in that department.

Well Monarchys are usually come from some religions as that's where those type of rulers claim their power comes from.

CFLarsen · 19th December 2004, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Well CFL claimed US is become a religious tyranny, I merely pointed out that Denmark would be a far better candidate for such a title than USA seeing as it has a state religion. Merely pointing out that before he can go off on a country like USA perhaps the one he lives could at least be more forward in that department.

But we don't have a religious tyranny in Denmark - far from it. And we are not even getting there. How do you explain that? Could you be wrong about this?

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammatron
Well Monarchys are usually come from some religions as that's where those type of rulers claim their power comes from.

It was, in the old days, yes. But not today, we have a constitutional monarchy. And the regent has zero real power.

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

18th December 2004, 05:53 AM	#1
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Poll: 44% in US say restrict Muslims http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6729916/ Quote: ITHACA, N.Y. - Nearly half of all Americans believe the U.S. government should restrict the civil liberties of Muslim-Americans, according to a nationwide poll. The survey conducted by Cornell University also found that Republicans and people who described themselves as highly religious were more apt to support curtailing Muslimsâ€™ civil liberties than Democrats or people who are less religious. And I bet 0% of respondents believed their civil rights should be curbed more than any other person. So much for learning lessons from America's historical discriminatory policies.

18th December 2004, 06:27 AM	#2
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	This is exactly why our founders didn't want a democracy.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

18th December 2004, 06:30 AM	#3
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	For more info and the full report, here. While this is not all that surprising (at least to me), the item I find most distrurbing is the 27% who think muslims "should be required to register their whereabouts with the federal governement." At least the only group of people had a majority support for that item were the highly religious who pay a lot of attention to tv news.
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

18th December 2004, 07:19 AM	#4
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Edit: I asked a simple question, looked up the answer, and then realized it was kind of a stupid question so I removed it. . . . . . . . . . . . . Response to the poll: Yikes!
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

18th December 2004, 09:17 AM	#5
Regnad Kcin Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The ol' Same place Posts: 6,213	I'm certain there's no risk of them being put in relocation camps or anything. That'd never happen.
	__________________ My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.

18th December 2004, 11:40 AM	#6
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	I have been looking for the actual wording of the poll. Frankly, without knowing that there is no way to even vaguely interpret the results.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

18th December 2004, 12:00 PM	#7
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by shanek This is exactly why our founders didn't want a democracy. How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

18th December 2004, 12:37 PM	#8
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Quote: Originally posted by Ed I have been looking for the actual wording of the poll. Frankly, without knowing that there is no way to even vaguely interpret the results. Here it is, in PDF format. http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th December 2004, 01:14 PM	#9
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Thank you, Mycroft. BTW, the survey was not attached. Quote: TableÂŸ7ÂŸ PublicÂŸSupportÂŸforÂŸRestrictionsÂŸonÂŸMuslimÂŸAm ericansÂŸStatementÂŸ %ÂŸAgree AllÂŸMuslimÂŸAmericansÂŸshouldÂŸbeÂŸrequiredÂŸtoÂŸ registerÂŸtheirÂŸwhereaboutsÂŸwithÂŸtheÂŸfederalÂŸ government.ÂŸ27ÂŸ MosquesÂŸshouldÂŸbeÂŸcloselyÂŸmonitoredÂŸandÂŸsurv eilledÂŸbyÂŸU.S.ÂŸlawÂŸenforcementÂŸagencies.ÂŸ26Â Ÿ U.S.ÂŸgovernmentÂŸagenciesÂŸshouldÂŸprofileÂŸcitiz ensÂŸasÂŸpotentialÂŸthreatsÂŸbasedÂŸonÂŸbeingÂŸMus limÂŸorÂŸhavingÂŸMiddleÂŸEasternÂŸheritage.ÂŸ22ÂŸ MuslimÂŸcivicÂŸandÂŸvolunteerÂŸorganizationsÂŸshou ldÂŸbeÂŸinfiltratedÂŸbyÂŸundercoverÂŸlawÂŸenforcem entÂŸagentsÂŸtoÂŸkeepÂŸwatchÂŸonÂŸtheirÂŸactiities ÂŸandÂŸfundraising.ÂŸ29ÂŸ AgreedÂŸwithÂŸnoneÂŸofÂŸtheÂŸstatementsÂŸ48 ÂŸAgreedÂŸwithÂŸoneÂŸstatementÂŸ15ÂŸ AgreedÂŸwithÂŸtwoÂŸorÂŸmoreÂŸstatementsÂŸ29ÂŸ So, 42 % of Americans agree with one or more of these statements. So? They also say this Quote: AttentionÂ_toÂ_TVÂ_newsÂ_wasÂ_assessedÂ_byÂ_asking Â_respondentsÂ_twoÂ_separateÂ_questionsÂ_regarding Â_howÂ_muchÂ_attentionÂ_theyÂ_paidÂ_toÂ_newsÂ_aout Â_nationalÂ_politicsÂ_andÂ_toÂ_theÂ_U.S.Â_WarÂ_onÂ _Terror.Â_BothÂ_measuresÂ_wereÂ_addedÂ_toÂ_createÂ _anÂ_overallÂ_attentionÂ_measure.Â_RespondentsÂ_we reÂ_thenÂ_segmentedÂ_intoÂ_low,Â_moderate,Â_andÂ_h ighÂ_levelsÂ_ofÂ_attentionÂ_toÂ_TVÂ_news.Â_ They are operationally defining TV News as something narrower than TV news. A nit, but a bit sloppy. What they are really saying, I think, is that people who differentially consume information on politics and the WOT behave differently than others. One might say that these people know more and respond thus. Or one might say that the consumption is an effect, not a cause of the attitudes. As it is, it is in the "nice to know" catagory.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

18th December 2004, 01:35 PM	#10
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	It took me a while to figure out where the got the 44% figure, it seems to require some interpretation of table 7. Quote: All Muslim Americans should be required to register their wherabouts with the federal government: 27% Mosques should be closely monitored and surveilled by U.S. law enforcement agencies: 26% U.S. government agencies should profile citizens as potential threats based on being Muslim or having Middle Eastern heritage: 22% Muslim civic and volunteer organizations should be infiltrated by undercover law enforcement agents to keep watch on their activities and fundraising: 29% Agree with none of the statements: 48% Agree with one statement: 15% Agree with two or more statements: 29% So assuming those that agreed with two or more statements are not also included with those that agree with only one statement, we get the 44% by adding the two. Which frankly makes me skeptical of the survey. If 48% didn't agree with any of these statements, what happened to the other 8%? Did they not make it to the end of the survey? If so, why were they counted at all? Also, I'm having a hard time understanding a whopping 27% agreeing that all Muslims should have to to register their wherabouts with the federal government, yet only 29% agreed to two or more statements overall. It doesn't seem natural that anyone would agree to something so draconian without also agreeing to nearly everything else, and that doesn't leave room for anyone agreeing to two lesser restrictions without agreeing to registering Muslims. I think I'd have to see the souce data before I could accept this as true.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th December 2004, 01:50 PM	#11
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by Mycroft It took me a while to figure out where the got the 44% figure, it seems to require some interpretation of table 7. I think I'd have to see the souce data before I could accept this as true. But it sounds good for people that want to say "look at how nasty those Americans are". re. the numbers. The 27% probably would agree with most of the other things, and the number for those who agree with 2+ is higher than 27%. OK so far. But it is a bit problematic, I think, as you point out. 8% fall out? Odd. Usually they account for 100% with a DK/Refused line.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

18th December 2004, 02:11 PM	#12
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Quote: Originally posted by Ed re. the numbers. The 27% probably would agree with most of the other things, and the number for those who agree with 2+ is higher than 27%. OK so far. But it is a bit problematic, I think, as you point out. I agree, but even if we accept that I have a problem with the interpretation of the rest of the numbers. If itâ€™s supposed to show how bad we are to Muslims, consider the following: If we place the numbers in context of Christian terrorism (the right to life crowd), then most of the results make sense. The 27% being registered with the government is absurd no matter what group we are talking about, but the other questions? How many people would support monitoring and surveillance of churches known to be associated with groups that have bombed abortion clinics? Would it be more or less than 26%? How many people would be in favor of profiling potential right-to-life terrorists based of affiliation with said churches? More or less than 22%? If some Christian right-to-life charities had been caught funneling money to fugitives suspected of such terrorism, or groups known to be linked to such terrorism, how many people would support infiltration of said organizations by undercover law enforcement agents? More or less than 29%? I think if we change the religion, none of that seems so unreasonable. If abortion clinic bombing were the threat today as it was in decades past, I think I would support all those measures except the registration.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

18th December 2004, 03:33 PM	#13
HarryKeogh Catholic School Survivor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 11,342	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again? Aside from trying to pick a fight with Shanek what's the point of your question? I, for one, am glad that the United States is a constitutional republic and not a true democracy.

18th December 2004, 03:57 PM	#14
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen How many votes did the Libertarian presidential candidate get again? You are so evil!
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

18th December 2004, 11:47 PM	#15
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by HarryKeogh Aside from trying to pick a fight with Shanek what's the point of your question? I, for one, am glad that the United States is a constitutional republic and not a true democracy. That may be so. However, this thread is about the rising intolerance in the US, not about what political philosophy is better than another. Shanek has to use every subject for an excuse to give a political speech, despite the fact that his politics command 0% in the elections. Yes, this poll is highly disturbing. It shows how well on the way the US has come to a religious tyranny. So, what are Americans going to do about it? I am sure Europeans could come up with some advice (since we've had our shares of religious tyrannies), but that never seems to go down well.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 12:18 AM	#16
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen That may be so. However, this thread is about the rising intolerance in the US, not about what political philosophy is better than another. Shanek has to use every subject for an excuse to give a political speech, despite the fact that his politics command 0% in the elections. Yes, this poll is highly disturbing. It shows how well on the way the US has come to a religious tyranny. So, what are Americans going to do about it? I am sure Europeans could come up with some advice (since we've had our shares of religious tyrannies), but that never seems to go down well. Well from the way past threads Denmarks comes off much more as a religious tyranny than USA. What with state religion, having a monarchy and limiting rights to foreigners. Yeah, I can't wait for that enlightenment to come to the USA.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 12:27 AM	#17
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron Well from the way past threads Denmarks comes off much more as a religious tyranny than USA. What with state religion, having a monarchy and limiting rights to foreigners. Yeah, I can't wait for that enlightenment to come to the USA. Me neither. Remember, I've lived in the US. I'm taking a wild guess here, but you have never actually been to Denmark, have you?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 12:36 AM	#18
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Me neither. Remember, I've lived in the US. I'm taking a wild guess here, but you have never actually been to Denmark, have you? You right, I have not been to Denmark. So I won't comment on the people. However, we're talking opinon of average US person vs. Denmark law. I don't need to visit Denmark to know it has a state religion and monarchy. And shanek correctly pointed out that if this were a pure democracy majority opinion would be law.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 12:46 AM	#19
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,275	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen So, what are Americans going to do about it? Kill the muslims? Then there would be none left to restrict!
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

19th December 2004, 01:10 AM	#20
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	gee I wonder where people get exposed to the sort of hate rants that encourage these sort of attitudes?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

19th December 2004, 01:12 AM	#21
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron You right, I have not been to Denmark. So I won't comment on the people. However, we're talking opinon of average US person vs. Denmark law. I don't need to visit Denmark to know it has a state religion and monarchy. You have to visit Denmark to know how this state religion and monarchy works. You obviously don't know from reading brief Internet articles. Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron And shanek correctly pointed out that if this were a pure democracy majority opinion would be law. Really? Since when is 44% a majority? 48% says that no civil liberties should be restricted. What are you going to do about this? Is it a good thing that the civil liberties of Muslims are restricted? If not, what will you do to prevent it?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:14 AM	#22
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool gee I wonder where people get exposed to the sort of hate rants that encourage these sort of attitudes? The Outback?
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:14 AM	#23
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer Kill the muslims? Then there would be none left to restrict! Atheists. Don't forget what Bush Sr. said.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:16 AM	#24
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron The Outback? The media. Read the article: Quote: Researchers also found that respondents who paid more attention to television news were more likely to fear terrorist attacks and support limiting the rights of Muslim-Americans.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:19 AM	#25
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen You have to visit Denmark to know how this state religion and monarchy works. You obviously don't know from reading brief Internet articles. No I don't, it's rather obvious. Quote: Really? Since when is 44% a majority? 48% says that no civil liberties should be restricted. What are you going to do about this? Is it a good thing that the civil liberties of Muslims are restricted? If not, what will you do to prevent it? What are we going to do about what, opinion? Well seeing as how we have free speech nothing we can do about that. As for prevention, well we have this constitution thing.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:21 AM	#26
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen The media. Read the article: That was a joke aimed at people in America. I though you were familiar with the culture?
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:34 AM	#27
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron No I don't, it's rather obvious. No, it isn't. I'm not the only Dane who has told people here how wrong their perception of Denmark is. Or perhaps we are all wrong? Indoctrinated into delivering the state doctrine? Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron What are we going to do about what, opinion? Well seeing as how we have free speech nothing we can do about that. As for prevention, well we have this constitution thing. Which can be changed. So, you will do nothing?
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:36 AM	#28
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron No I don't, it's rather obvious. [/b] OK first, Shanek then you, Why don't you educate us Danes about our monachy and state religion? It might be amusing.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

19th December 2004, 01:39 AM	#29
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Which can be changed. So, you will do nothing? Until the part of constitution that protects US citizens from losing their libery is changed I don't see what I need to do.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:40 AM	#30
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron Until the part of constitution that protects US citizens from losing their libery is changed I don't see what I need to do. At which time, it will be too late.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:40 AM	#31
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by Kerberos OK first, Shanek thehn you, Why don't you educate us Danes about our monachy and state religion? It might be amusing. Well you have a state religion and a monarchy...I don't see where the disconnect from what I said to reality is.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:43 AM	#32
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron Well you have a state religion and a monarchy...I don't see where the disconnect from what I said to reality is. Repeating mantra here. Argue your case.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:44 AM	#33
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen *Repeating mantra here. Argue* your case.** ?
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

19th December 2004, 01:47 AM	#34
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	Quote: Originally posted by Grammatron ? Look, Danes know that we have a state religion and a monarchy. Please educate us on how that influence our lives.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

19th December 2004, 01:52 AM	#35
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Quote: Originally posted by CFLarsen Look, Danes know that we have a state religion and a monarchy. Good, perhaps you can get rid of it then.
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!