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Tmy · 14th January 2005, 08:21 AM

All these dramatic rescues of LA mudslide and fllor victims is swell n all, but what burns me up is when were told that city officials warned them to evacute days earlier..........and they decide to stay.

IDIOTS!!!! Its bad enuff they have govt sponcered insurance cause no one will insure homes in these danger zones, its bad enough we recycle these natural disasters every few years only to rebuild on the same spot, BUT when you put rescue crews in danger cause you refused to leave you should have to save yourself. Or at least pay for your rescue.

I saw one flood "victim" being interviewed on Good Morning America. I wanted to smack the crap out of him.

LTC8K6 · 14th January 2005, 08:48 AM

I just saw a story on the news the other day. A woman drove around barricades blocking a flooded street and got stuck in the raging torrent, of course. Unfortunately, the 2 year old child she had with her was swept away by the floodwaters as she tried to get out of the car to be rescued by a helicopter.

Authorities are deciding if they will charge her for the death of the child.

Someone should cane her first, imo.

Ed · 14th January 2005, 10:02 AM

I can understand (barely) the idea for government sponsored insurance. What I don't understand is why any more is being written. I mean, uo own a house in some dangerous area and you have lived there for years. OK. But now construction? Additions to existing structures? Why should I help pay for that?

Nikk · 14th January 2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I can understand (barely) the idea for government sponsored insurance. What I don't understand is why any more is being written. I mean, uo own a house in some dangerous area and you have lived there for years. OK. But now construction? Additions to existing structures? Why should I help pay for that?

Government sponsored insurance?

Even in degenerate socialist Europe we don't do that. Well not in the UK anyway.

Sandy M · 14th January 2005, 10:46 AM

The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county.

Ed · 14th January 2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy M
The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county.

I don't understand this comment. Do you mean that they cannot afford to move? It seems to me that if they cannot afford some sort of assigned risk insurance they can't afford to live there either.

a_unique_person · 14th January 2005, 07:19 PM

How about the solo round the world sailors. The shape of the globe means if you want the shortest path, you go as close as possible to the Antarctic, which is extremely risky. This has meant that millions of dollars has been wasted on rescuing these people when their yachts get into trouble.

The thing is, it's only multi millionaires who can afford to get into this sport, and, AFAIK, they don't have to pay a cent for the rescue.

http://www.sailing.co.za/oldfeat/1997/fa_9702.htm

Meanwhile, those millions could be spent on far more worthy causes, to save more lives.

LucyR · 14th January 2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
How about the solo round the world sailors.

For that matter what about mountain climbers? Those pretentious idiots are always getting into trouble.

webfusion · 14th January 2005, 07:31 PM

the Jews who are still living in Gaza, with mortars and rockets falling on them all the time ---- don't they realize that they should get out (or at least evacuate their kids from a free-fire war zone)?

Life goes on in Gaza settlements despite mortar attacks

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1286702.stm

(notice the dateline on the article!!!)

LucyR · 14th January 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by webfusion
the Jews who are still living in Gaza, with mortars and rockets falling on them all the time ---- don't they realize that they should get out (or at least evacuate their kids from a free-fire war zone)?

What's your point?

Jocko · 14th January 2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucyR
What's your point?

I think this is his point:

LucyR · 14th January 2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
I think this is his point:

It's Friday night and the booze is flowing which may explain why I still don't understand. Are you saying it's a train smash? Coming off the rails? What?

Actually, I don't even remember what this thread is about. Got to cut down on this stuff.

Jocko · 14th January 2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucyR
It's Friday night and the booze is flowing which may explain why I still don't understand. Are you saying it's a train smash? Coming off the rails? What?

Actually, I don't even remember what this thread is about. Got to cut down on this stuff.

Sorry, Lucy, I was visually demonstrating a derailment.

BTW, the vodka is flowing freely here as well. What's your poison?

LucyR · 14th January 2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
Sorry, Lucy, I was visually demonstrating a derailment.

BTW, the vodka is flowing freely here as well. What's your poison?

American stuff called Samuel Adams. Better than the stuff in the joke, you know the one about why is American beer like making love in a canoe?

Jocko · 14th January 2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LucyR
American stuff called Samuel Adams. Better than the stuff in the joke, you know the one about why is American beer like making love in a canoe?

Ah, you have a refined palate. An American take on a British favorite.

I know the joke, but around here we use it on Mexican beer. It bears mentioning the joke is never repeated in Spanish.

UserGoogol · 14th January 2005, 09:02 PM

It bears mentioning that the "****** close to water," pun probably doesn't translate well.

Gulliamo · 14th January 2005, 09:08 PM

And what about skiers? And people who drive too fast? And ride bicycles or roller skate? What about the idiots who leave their house and go to work in a "dangerous" city?! What about those people that fall down their stairs and expect a city ambulance to pick them up? They should have built a single story home! What about people who like to drink but then get liver disease?

These people should know better than to leave their couch! But of course then they might get too fat from sitting on the couch and we'd have to pay for their triple bypass! ARGH!

JAR · 15th January 2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LTC8K6
Someone should cane her first, imo.

No, she should not be caned. That is a form of punishment and punishment is bad. She should be rehabilitated.

John Bentley · 15th January 2005, 11:04 PM

We recently went through a bit of bad weather here in the Southeast. You may have heard of it -- Ivan was its name. I mention this because in Mississippi, the state tells you when it's time to evacuate. If you decide to stay, they don't force you to leave, but they do tell you that no rescue crews will be sent to pull your sorry butt out if you get in trouble. Also, I've been told that towns along the coastline were getting people to sign their own death certificates, and provide photos for ID so that your body could be identified later. Don't know if that last part is true, or just urban legend material.

Personally, I think parents who refuse to evacuate their children ahead of a storm like that should be charged with child endangerment. I believe adults should be left alone to do what they want, but kids who end up victims of parental stupidity really rips my heart out.

Charlie Monoxide · 15th January 2005, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy M
The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county.

Also, it's an absolutely beautiful area to live in, notwithstanding mudslides ....

Charlie (oh to live in South Cali) Monoxide

Zep · 15th January 2005, 11:41 PM

1) Idiot parent defies advice/orders to keep clear of a known danger zone, and takes child there too.
2) Idiot parent and child caught in grave danger, life-threatening events ensue, and they have to resort to an unnecessary rescue effort.
3) Idiot parent saved, but child dies as a result of parent's stupidity.
4) Idiot parent has to live with that for the rest of their life, which should be punishment enough for them...unless idiot parent is SO idiotic that they think children are expendable, and they can just make more.

SezMe · 16th January 2005, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
Also, it's an absolutely beautiful area to live in, notwithstanding mudslides ....

Charlie (oh to live in South Cali) Monoxide

Indeed. Drove past La Conchita last night on the way home from Los Angeles. Finally, the freeway was opened and it was quite striking to actually see the slide from a grounds-eye perspective rather than from a helicopter photo. Made it real and much more massive.

But here is my tentative plan (since I cannot afford to live in Santa Barbara much longer). Buy a house from a fleeing La Conchitian for a few tens of thousands of $$. Buy no insurance but also pay no taxes (the assessed value of the land/structure will be zero). Live the good life. If it rains, get a room at a local Motel 6 for a few days.

If a slide wipes out my house, walk away from it. I will have lived for X years for less per month than rent or insurance premiums.

Ok, ok, its a dream...but I am thinking.........

WildCat · 16th January 2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gulliamo
And ride bicycles or roller skate? What about the idiots who leave their house and go to work in a "dangerous" city?! What about those people that fall down their stairs and expect a city ambulance to pick them up? They should have built a single story home! What about people who like to drink but then get liver disease?

These people should know better than to leave their couch! But of course then they might get too fat from sitting on the couch and we'd have to pay for their triple bypass! ARGH!

Now, this is just silly. Big difference between those things and what is happening in California.

If I remember my geography correctly, the soil in the mudslide areas is very fine and silty, and sits on bedrock which is sloped. In typically dry SoCal weather, no problem. But a good soaking rain is all it takes to turn that soil into a river of mud, taking down anything built on it. It's really a wonder that people are allowed to build in those areas at all. They should be required to anchor the buildings in bed rock, but this is expensive and unfeasible where the soil layer is thick.

Gulliamo · 16th January 2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WildCat
Now, this is just silly. Big difference between those things and what is happening in California.

Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews.

Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9.

WildCat · 16th January 2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gulliamo
Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews.

Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9.

D'oh! I should have known.

Ove · 16th January 2005, 11:03 PM

I have to agree with the general notion though. If people does something deliberate stupid they ought to take the consequences. If people goes "off piste" skiing despite being warned about avalanches f.inst (just heard such a case) sorry folks but if you want a search party pay for it yourself.

Another example are base-jumping. The Norwegians banned a popular mountain because the Search and Rescue teams was close to revolting. Thiy had to use a large part of their valuable time(and take considerable risks) picking up squashed base-jumpers.

I say let Darwin work. If people do something deliberately stupid then let them take the consequences.

Unfortunately that's next to impossible. Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need. And that goes for the general public too, you can actually be prosecuted for not helping someone in need.

But still....... Some people allmost begs to be killed, -and i'm NOT speaking about "Jackass".

Checkmite · 16th January 2005, 11:15 PM

Before I left San Antonio in 2001, there was a spate of heavy rains and flooding (in fact, there was some extreme flooding only two days after I left). Throughout the whole season, the news channels made sure to repeat, over and over again, the fact that if you drove around barricades and your vehicle was subsequently stranded, requiring rescue teams to risk their lives to save you, you would have to pay a hefty fine. It is a reasonable and solid policy, and I think more communities ought to adopt it.

Charlie Monoxide · 17th January 2005, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Before I left San Antonio in 2001, there was a spate of heavy rains and flooding (in fact, there was some extreme flooding only two days after I left). Throughout the whole season, the news channels made sure to repeat, over and over again, the fact that if you drove around barricades and your vehicle was subsequently stranded, requiring rescue teams to risk their lives to save you, you would have to pay a hefty fine. It is a reasonable and solid policy, and I think more communities ought to adopt it.

Errr, I lived in Texas. Don't Texans pride themselves as being "risk-takers" and "anti-authority"?

Charlie (I wonder if that gorilla is dead or just sleeping, let's kick him Cletus) Monxide

Nikk · 17th January 2005, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ove

Unfortunately that's next to impossible. Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need. And that goes for the general public too, you can actually be prosecuted for not helping someone in need.

Not the general public in the UK.

As any law tutor will tell you.......

One must not kill,
But needst not strive,
Officiously, to keep alive.

Kerberos · 17th January 2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nikk
Not the general public in the UK.

As any law tutor will tell you.......

One must not kill,
But needst not strive,
Officiously, to keep alive.

I think the Danish law is fair enough. You don't have to put yourself in danger to help other people, and you can't be charged with not knowing first aid. AFAIK The last guy who got convicted was a Taxi driver who had seen some person in need (I don't remember the specifics), and hadn't called the police. I'm OK with that.

Tmy · 17th January 2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gulliamo
Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews.

Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9.

Working in a dangerous city is not like base jummping. One is a fairly regular activity with a very small chance of danger. The other is a useless dangerous act with a very high likelyhood of danger.

CBL4 · 17th January 2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need.

On some mountains, climbers who do not bring an avalanche beacon to help rescuers find them are legally responsible for the search cost. That's the law but I do not know if it is enforced. I do know that almost everyone carries beacons.

CBL

Ove · 17th January 2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Not the general public in the UK.

As any law tutor will tell you.......
.

You mean that if f.inst you are driving along in a snowstorm and you come across a walking guy allmost frozen to death you can just ignore him and drive on? Or if you spot someone drowning you can just keep up your "SMS'ing" with your girl-friend?

I'm not saying that you are in any way obliged to take any risks yourself but if you CAN help then i still think you can be punished for not doing so,,,,, even according to British laws.

Jaggy Bunnet · 18th January 2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ove
You mean that if f.inst you are driving along in a snowstorm and you come across a walking guy allmost frozen to death you can just ignore him and drive on? Or if you spot someone drowning you can just keep up your "SMS'ing" with your girl-friend?

I'm not saying that you are in any way obliged to take any risks yourself but if you CAN help then i still think you can be punished for not doing so,,,,, even according to British laws.

I think the legal answer to both your questions is yes. The moral answer may be different but I am not aware of any law under which you could be prosecuted.

Ove · 18th January 2005, 11:30 PM

Quote:

I think the legal answer to both your questions is yes. The moral answer may be different but I am not aware of any law under which you could be prosecuted.

Ok then there ARE differencies. In Denmark you CAN be prosecuted for not helping and there has been some cases mostly in relation to traffic accidents but i remember one also where a Taxi driver fefused to drive a stabbed man to hospital because of the mess it would make to his Taxi.

The driver got a rather heavy fine (and the stabbed man died). It is the same law that is used against hit and run drivers.

Phrost · 19th January 2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zep
1) Idiot parent defies advice/orders to keep clear of a known danger zone, and takes child there too.
2) Idiot parent and child caught in grave danger, life-threatening events ensue, and they have to resort to an unnecessary rescue effort.
3) Idiot parent saved, but child dies as a result of parent's stupidity.
4) Idiot parent has to live with that for the rest of their life, which should be punishment enough for them...unless idiot parent is SO idiotic that they think children are expendable, and they can just make more.

30 Days of walking around downtown LA wearing a placcard that reads "My Stupid Decision Killed My Child, Ask Me How!".

I wouldn't call this cruel or unusual punishment.

14th January 2005, 08:21 AM	#1
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Let the mudslide victims dig themselves out! All these dramatic rescues of LA mudslide and fllor victims is swell n all, but what burns me up is when were told that city officials warned them to evacute days earlier..........and they decide to stay. IDIOTS!!!! Its bad enuff they have govt sponcered insurance cause no one will insure homes in these danger zones, its bad enough we recycle these natural disasters every few years only to rebuild on the same spot, BUT when you put rescue crews in danger cause you refused to leave you should have to save yourself. Or at least pay for your rescue. I saw one flood "victim" being interviewed on Good Morning America. I wanted to smack the crap out of him.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

14th January 2005, 10:02 AM	#3
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	I can understand (barely) the idea for government sponsored insurance. What I don't understand is why any more is being written. I mean, uo own a house in some dangerous area and you have lived there for years. OK. But now construction? Additions to existing structures? Why should I help pay for that?
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

14th January 2005, 10:37 AM	#4
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249	Quote: Originally posted by Ed I can understand (barely) the idea for government sponsored insurance. What I don't understand is why any more is being written. I mean, uo own a house in some dangerous area and you have lived there for years. OK. But now construction? Additions to existing structures? Why should I help pay for that? Government sponsored insurance? Even in degenerate socialist Europe we don't do that. Well not in the UK anyway.
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249

14th January 2005, 10:53 AM	#6
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by Sandy M The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county. I don't understand this comment. Do you mean that they cannot afford to move? It seems to me that if they cannot afford some sort of assigned risk insurance they can't afford to live there either.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

14th January 2005, 07:19 PM	#7
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	How about the solo round the world sailors. The shape of the globe means if you want the shortest path, you go as close as possible to the Antarctic, which is extremely risky. This has meant that millions of dollars has been wasted on rescuing these people when their yachts get into trouble. The thing is, it's only multi millionaires who can afford to get into this sport, and, AFAIK, they don't have to pay a cent for the rescue. http://www.sailing.co.za/oldfeat/1997/fa_9702.htm Meanwhile, those millions could be spent on far more worthy causes, to save more lives.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

14th January 2005, 08:48 AM	#2
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,755	I just saw a story on the news the other day. A woman drove around barricades blocking a flooded street and got stuck in the raging torrent, of course. Unfortunately, the 2 year old child she had with her was swept away by the floodwaters as she tried to get out of the car to be rescued by a helicopter. Authorities are deciding if they will charge her for the death of the child. Someone should cane her first, imo.

14th January 2005, 10:46 AM	#5
Sandy M Thinker Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 183	The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county.

14th January 2005, 07:23 PM	#8
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person How about the solo round the world sailors. For that matter what about mountain climbers? Those pretentious idiots are always getting into trouble.
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

14th January 2005, 07:31 PM	#9
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	how about those numbskulls the Jews who are still living in Gaza, with mortars and rockets falling on them all the time ---- don't they realize that they should get out (or at least evacuate their kids from a free-fire war zone)? Life goes on in Gaza settlements despite mortar attacks http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1286702.stm (notice the dateline on the article!!!)

14th January 2005, 07:37 PM	#10
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by webfusion the Jews who are still living in Gaza, with mortars and rockets falling on them all the time ---- don't they realize that they should get out (or at least evacuate their kids from a free-fire war zone)? What's your point?
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

14th January 2005, 07:49 PM	#11
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Re: Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by LucyR What's your point? I think this is his point:
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

14th January 2005, 07:56 PM	#12
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Re: Re: Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by Jocko I think this is his point: It's Friday night and the booze is flowing which may explain why I still don't understand. Are you saying it's a train smash? Coming off the rails? What? Actually, I don't even remember what this thread is about. Got to cut down on this stuff.
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

14th January 2005, 07:59 PM	#13
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Re: Re: Re: Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by LucyR It's Friday night and the booze is flowing which may explain why I still don't understand. Are you saying it's a train smash? Coming off the rails? What? Actually, I don't even remember what this thread is about. Got to cut down on this stuff. Sorry, Lucy, I was visually demonstrating a derailment. BTW, the vodka is flowing freely here as well. What's your poison?
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

14th January 2005, 08:04 PM	#14
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by Jocko Sorry, Lucy, I was visually demonstrating a derailment. BTW, the vodka is flowing freely here as well. What's your poison? American stuff called Samuel Adams. Better than the stuff in the joke, you know the one about why is American beer like making love in a canoe?
LucyR Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,086

14th January 2005, 08:11 PM	#15
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: how about those numbskulls Quote: Originally posted by LucyR American stuff called Samuel Adams. Better than the stuff in the joke, you know the one about why is American beer like making love in a canoe? Ah, you have a refined palate. An American take on a British favorite. I know the joke, but around here we use it on Mexican beer. It bears mentioning the joke is never repeated in Spanish.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

14th January 2005, 09:02 PM	#16
UserGoogol Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 2,074	It bears mentioning that the "****** close to water," pun probably doesn't translate well.
	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. -- Hanlon's Razor

14th January 2005, 09:08 PM	#17
Gulliamo Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 488	And what about skiers? And people who drive too fast? And ride bicycles or roller skate? What about the idiots who leave their house and go to work in a "dangerous" city?! What about those people that fall down their stairs and expect a city ambulance to pick them up? They should have built a single story home! What about people who like to drink but then get liver disease? These people should know better than to leave their couch! But of course then they might get too fat from sitting on the couch and we'd have to pay for their triple bypass! ARGH!
	__________________ Understand, you have a right to a belief and a theory, but when they are contradicted by observation, you probably should reconsider them. -Doctor X "I'll pray for you." -Kirk Cameron (Evangelist) "I'll think for you." -Brian Sapient (Rational Responders)

15th January 2005, 09:15 PM	#18
JAR Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,145	Quote: Originally posted by LTC8K6 Someone should cane her first, imo. No, she should not be caned. That is a form of punishment and punishment is bad. She should be rehabilitated.
JAR Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,145

15th January 2005, 11:04 PM	#19
John Bentley Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 454	We recently went through a bit of bad weather here in the Southeast. You may have heard of it -- Ivan was its name. I mention this because in Mississippi, the state tells you when it's time to evacuate. If you decide to stay, they don't force you to leave, but they do tell you that no rescue crews will be sent to pull your sorry butt out if you get in trouble. Also, I've been told that towns along the coastline were getting people to sign their own death certificates, and provide photos for ID so that your body could be identified later. Don't know if that last part is true, or just urban legend material. Personally, I think parents who refuse to evacuate their children ahead of a storm like that should be charged with child endangerment. I believe adults should be left alone to do what they want, but kids who end up victims of parental stupidity really rips my heart out.

15th January 2005, 11:37 PM	#20
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	Quote: Originally posted by Sandy M The average cost of a home in Ventura Couny is $700,000. I doubt many of these people can afford to build/buy elsewhere in the county. Also, it's an absolutely beautiful area to live in, notwithstanding mudslides .... Charlie (oh to live in South Cali) Monoxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

15th January 2005, 11:41 PM	#21
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	1) Idiot parent defies advice/orders to keep clear of a known danger zone, and takes child there too. 2) Idiot parent and child caught in grave danger, life-threatening events ensue, and they have to resort to an unnecessary rescue effort. 3) Idiot parent saved, but child dies as a result of parent's stupidity. 4) Idiot parent has to live with that for the rest of their life, which should be punishment enough for them...unless idiot parent is SO idiotic that they think children are expendable, and they can just make more.
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

16th January 2005, 12:15 AM	#22
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,647	Quote: Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide Also, it's an absolutely beautiful area to live in, notwithstanding mudslides .... Charlie (oh to live in South Cali) Monoxide Indeed. Drove past La Conchita last night on the way home from Los Angeles. Finally, the freeway was opened and it was quite striking to actually see the slide from a grounds-eye perspective rather than from a helicopter photo. Made it real and much more massive. But here is my tentative plan (since I cannot afford to live in Santa Barbara much longer). Buy a house from a fleeing La Conchitian for a few tens of thousands of $$. Buy no insurance but also pay no taxes (the assessed value of the land/structure will be zero). Live the good life. If it rains, get a room at a local Motel 6 for a few days. If a slide wipes out my house, walk away from it. I will have lived for X years for less per month than rent or insurance premiums. Ok, ok, its a dream...but I am thinking.........

16th January 2005, 11:26 AM	#23
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	Quote: Originally posted by Gulliamo And ride bicycles or roller skate? What about the idiots who leave their house and go to work in a "dangerous" city?! What about those people that fall down their stairs and expect a city ambulance to pick them up? They should have built a single story home! What about people who like to drink but then get liver disease? These people should know better than to leave their couch! But of course then they might get too fat from sitting on the couch and we'd have to pay for their triple bypass! ARGH! Now, this is just silly. Big difference between those things and what is happening in California. If I remember my geography correctly, the soil in the mudslide areas is very fine and silty, and sits on bedrock which is sloped. In typically dry SoCal weather, no problem. But a good soaking rain is all it takes to turn that soil into a river of mud, taking down anything built on it. It's really a wonder that people are allowed to build in those areas at all. They should be required to anchor the buildings in bed rock, but this is expensive and unfeasible where the soil layer is thick.

16th January 2005, 08:40 PM	#24
Gulliamo Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 488	Quote: Originally posted by WildCat Now, this is just silly. Big difference between those things and what is happening in California. Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews. Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9.
	__________________ Understand, you have a right to a belief and a theory, but when they are contradicted by observation, you probably should reconsider them. -Doctor X "I'll pray for you." -Kirk Cameron (Evangelist) "I'll think for you." -Brian Sapient (Rational Responders)

16th January 2005, 09:11 PM	#25
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,457	Quote: Originally posted by Gulliamo Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews. Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9. D'oh! I should have known.

16th January 2005, 11:03 PM	#26
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,900	I have to agree with the general notion though. If people does something deliberate stupid they ought to take the consequences. If people goes "off piste" skiing despite being warned about avalanches f.inst (just heard such a case) sorry folks but if you want a search party pay for it yourself. Another example are base-jumping. The Norwegians banned a popular mountain because the Search and Rescue teams was close to revolting. Thiy had to use a large part of their valuable time(and take considerable risks) picking up squashed base-jumpers. I say let Darwin work. If people do something deliberately stupid then let them take the consequences. Unfortunately that's next to impossible. Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need. And that goes for the general public too, you can actually be prosecuted for not helping someone in need. But still....... Some people allmost begs to be killed, -and i'm NOT speaking about "Jackass".
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

16th January 2005, 11:15 PM	#27
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,977	Before I left San Antonio in 2001, there was a spate of heavy rains and flooding (in fact, there was some extreme flooding only two days after I left). Throughout the whole season, the news channels made sure to repeat, over and over again, the fact that if you drove around barricades and your vehicle was subsequently stranded, requiring rescue teams to risk their lives to save you, you would have to pay a hefty fine. It is a reasonable and solid policy, and I think more communities ought to adopt it.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

17th January 2005, 01:20 AM	#28
Charlie Monoxide Wag Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 2,761	Quote: Originally posted by Joshua Korosi Before I left San Antonio in 2001, there was a spate of heavy rains and flooding (in fact, there was some extreme flooding only two days after I left). Throughout the whole season, the news channels made sure to repeat, over and over again, the fact that if you drove around barricades and your vehicle was subsequently stranded, requiring rescue teams to risk their lives to save you, you would have to pay a hefty fine. It is a reasonable and solid policy, and I think more communities ought to adopt it. Errr, I lived in Texas. Don't Texans pride themselves as being "risk-takers" and "anti-authority"? Charlie (I wonder if that gorilla is dead or just sleeping, let's kick him Cletus) Monxide
	__________________ Major General Wag of JREF

17th January 2005, 05:30 AM	#29
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249	Quote: Originally posted by Ove Unfortunately that's next to impossible. Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need. And that goes for the general public too, you can actually be prosecuted for not helping someone in need. Not the general public in the UK. As any law tutor will tell you....... One must not kill, But needst not strive, Officiously, to keep alive.
Nikk Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,249

17th January 2005, 05:38 AM	#30
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by Nikk Not the general public in the UK. As any law tutor will tell you....... One must not kill, But needst not strive, Officiously, to keep alive. I think the Danish law is fair enough. You don't have to put yourself in danger to help other people, and you can't be charged with not knowing first aid. AFAIK The last guy who got convicted was a Taxi driver who had seen some person in need (I don't remember the specifics), and hadn't called the police. I'm OK with that.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

17th January 2005, 02:47 PM	#31
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Quote: Originally posted by Gulliamo Yes, it was intentionally silly. I was responding to the equally silly notions that we shouldn't rescue sailors, mountain climbers and Jews. Edit to add: See posts 7,8 and 9. Working in a dangerous city is not like base jummping. One is a fairly regular activity with a very small chance of danger. The other is a useless dangerous act with a very high likelyhood of danger.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

17th January 2005, 02:56 PM	#32
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349	Quote: Rescue services ar legally obliged to rescue anybody in need. On some mountains, climbers who do not bring an avalanche beacon to help rescuers find them are legally responsible for the search cost. That's the law but I do not know if it is enforced. I do know that almost everyone carries beacons. CBL
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349

17th January 2005, 10:55 PM	#33
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,900	Quote: Not the general public in the UK. As any law tutor will tell you....... . You mean that if f.inst you are driving along in a snowstorm and you come across a walking guy allmost frozen to death you can just ignore him and drive on? Or if you spot someone drowning you can just keep up your "SMS'ing" with your girl-friend? I'm not saying that you are in any way obliged to take any risks yourself but if you CAN help then i still think you can be punished for not doing so,,,,, even according to British laws.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)

18th January 2005, 03:08 AM	#34
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,155	Quote: Originally posted by Ove You mean that if f.inst you are driving along in a snowstorm and you come across a walking guy allmost frozen to death you can just ignore him and drive on? Or if you spot someone drowning you can just keep up your "SMS'ing" with your girl-friend? I'm not saying that you are in any way obliged to take any risks yourself but if you CAN help then i still think you can be punished for not doing so,,,,, even according to British laws. I think the legal answer to both your questions is yes. The moral answer may be different but I am not aware of any law under which you could be prosecuted.

18th January 2005, 11:30 PM	#35
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,900	Quote: I think the legal answer to both your questions is yes. The moral answer may be different but I am not aware of any law under which you could be prosecuted. Ok then there ARE differencies. In Denmark you CAN be prosecuted for not helping and there has been some cases mostly in relation to traffic accidents but i remember one also where a Taxi driver fefused to drive a stabbed man to hospital because of the mess it would make to his Taxi. The driver got a rather heavy fine (and the stabbed man died). It is the same law that is used against hit and run drivers.
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)