There go the Europeans again

Elind · 27th January 2005, 06:05 PM

Dutch troops are expected to withdraw by March 15, after the country's parliament opposed any further extension of the deployment mandate, the Lib Dems said.

The new Ukrainian government is expected to reduce the size of its 1,600-strong military force, and Poland is cutting its contingent from 2,400 troops to 1,700. Hungary withdrew its 300 soldiers last month.

Portugal announced in November that it would not maintain its 120-strong police contingent in Iraq next month.

Italy and Romania have also indicated that they may pull out after the elections, the Lib Dems said.

I suppose they say that IF a few WMDs had been found they would now be adding forces to help Iraq? Bull.

Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back.

Silicon · 27th January 2005, 06:09 PM

Hey,

Don't demean poland!

[IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/prez.jpg [/IMG]

[IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/ship.jpg [/IMG]

[IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/forget_about_it.jpg [/IMG]

http://www.youforgotpoland.com/

Elind · 27th January 2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silicon
Hey,

Don't demean poland!

Wasn't on the list was it?

KelvinG · 27th January 2005, 07:37 PM

Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about countries pulling out troops. After all, Bush announced that combat operations had ended in Iraq long ago.

NoZed Avenger · 27th January 2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KelvinG
Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about countries pulling out troops. After all, Bush announced that combat operations had ended in Iraq long ago.

So it will be easy to show a link quoting him saying precisely that, right?

Mrick · 27th January 2005, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silicon
Hey,

Don't demean poland!

http://www.youforgotpoland.com/

:-) - That was pretty funny. Thanks.

Mrick

KelvinG · 27th January 2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
So it will be easy to show a link quoting him saying precisely that, right?

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm

NoZed Avenger · 27th January 2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KelvinG
http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm

Perhaps I was not clear.

Do you have a link showing he said precisely that?

Elind · 27th January 2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
Perhaps I was not clear.

Do you have a link showing he said precisely that?

I don't really think it matters. Bush did say something to the effect that major combat was over, and that was true in a military sense.

You are just being baited on this issue, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Jocko · 27th January 2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
I don't really think it matters. Bush did say something to the effect that major combat was over, and that was true in a military sense.

You are just being baited on this issue, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

So, your interpretation of a banner constitutes evidence. That, coupled with some vague but uncited memory of something to that effect possibly being intimated at some stage under some circumstances. Allegedly.

Funny, around these here parts we call that putting words into someone's mouth.

Elind · 28th January 2005, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
So, your interpretation of a banner constitutes evidence. That, coupled with some vague but uncited memory of something to that effect possibly being intimated at some stage under some circumstances. Allegedly.

Funny, around these here parts we call that putting words into someone's mouth.

I think you're responding to a quote about a quote and have yourself turned the wrong way. I suggest starting at the top in this case.

Hutch · 28th January 2005, 07:14 AM

From the US Today Archives of 30 April 2003. While not proof that President Bush said those exact words, it does indicate that the thought was there.

Quote:

The White House has asked TV networks to carry Bush's remarks at 9 p.m. ET. He'll speak from the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln as it heads toward San Diego. The carrier has been deployed since July 20, 2002. Bush will sleep on the ship and fly ashore Friday before it docks. (Related item: President's jet plans are nixed.)

The president will describe "what was at stake, what has been accomplished" in Iraq "so we can all join together in saying thanks to the men and women of our armed forces who helped achieve this remarkable success," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said.

Bush will say "major combat operations" have ended, Fleischer said, but "there are pockets of resistance, there continue to be Iraqis who shoot at America's armed forces." Fleischer said he could not predict "when, from a formal legal sense, hostilities will be deemed to be over."

Edited to add: Ah, I see, it would appear that we are debating the use of the word "major", as in 'major combat operations' (which Bush did say) vs. 'combat operations', which he did not.

I will leave it to the rest to dance on the head of this pin.

Elind · 28th January 2005, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hutch
From the US Today Archives of 30 April 2003. While not proof that President Bush said those exact words, it does indicate that the thought was there.

Thanks for the clarification. The thought and the meaning seem quite clear, now and then, so perhaps this little slanging diversion can now be put to rest?

Darat · 28th January 2005, 07:23 AM

Just glad the UK isn't part of this imaginary country called "Europe".

Ian Osborne · 28th January 2005, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
I suppose they say that IF a few WMDs had been found they would now be adding forces to help Iraq? Bull.

Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back.

The Europeans did the job they signed up for, but the fact is they were fed a pack of likes about the reasons for the war. Now America has re-elected the retard who took them into Iraq on false pretences, and Bush voters arrogantly proclaim they couldn't care less about Europe's opinion on the matter, can you really blame them for packing up and going home?

Eleatic Stranger · 28th January 2005, 12:21 PM

So, a month ago I told my girlfriend that we should go to the beach for the weekend. "Come on," I said, "It'll be fun! We'll sleep in, wade around in the surf, and eat horribly unhealthy food while wearing very little in the sun! The trip isn't that long, and it's well worth the effort!"

"That doesn't sound like a bad idea," she said, "but isn't the beach 1,000 miles away, and isn't it a mine field?"

"No!" I said "That's ludicrous nonsense. Don't you trust me?"

"Well," she said "I suppose I'll go, just for a little".

So we got in the car and started driving. Now, the first day or so she was mostly quiet and helped me out, but the second day was something different. "Didn't you say it was a short trip?" she asked, "Didn't you say we'd get there hours ago?"

"Don't worry," I said, "The turnoff is right ahead."
"OK," she said, "but I'm having my doubts about this."

Three days of driving later she really started getting on my nerves.

"Why aren't we there yet?" she complained, "The weekend is over and I have work I need to do. Can we turn around and go back? I'm wearing clothes that haven't been washed in days!"

"Now now," I told her, "You committed yourself to this and we have to see it through. Don't get faint hearted! The beach is only a few miles away, and once we get there we'll have a great weekend."

When we finally arrived at the beach it turned out to be covered in mines. "Wow," I said, "I didn't expect that."

"What are you talking about?" She yelled, "Everyone including me told you that!"

"Let's not be revisionist about this dear," I said, calming her down, "Everyone thought the beach would be nice -- no one had any idea about these mines. Now, put on your protective gear and let's get to work digging out these mines and clearing the beach."

And now, just today, she's announced she wants to go home -- and we're only days away from having the nice holiday we planned to!

I'm starting to think I should break up with her - she's just not reliable.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
The Europeans did the job they signed up for, but the fact is they were fed a pack of likes about the reasons for the war. Now America has re-elected the retard who took them into Iraq on false pretences, and Bush voters arrogantly proclaim they couldn't care less about Europe's opinion on the matter, can you really blame them for packing up and going home?

Bull. They (some of them) did the absolute minimum they could get away with. They believed the same info that the US did and they have no regard for larger issues, no concern for "petty" things like encouraging democracy, are perfectly happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable, and in the end behave like prissy little brats, like you.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Just glad the UK isn't part of this imaginary country called "Europe".

Me too.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eleatic Stranger
So, a month ago I told my girlfriend that we should go to the beach for the weekend. "Come on," I said, "It'll be fun! We'll sleep in, wade around in the surf, and eat horribly unhealthy food while wearing very little in the sun! The trip isn't that long, and it's well worth the effort!"............

Childish analogy and typical of those who can't face realities if they get difficult.

Eleatic Stranger · 31st January 2005, 11:26 AM

So, Elind, because you were fooled by what were, frankly, dubious claims by the current administration then everybody was fooled. And because you think by means of slogans ("bringing democracy!") instead of carefully considered plans, so does everyone else. And because some of those other people (ie, the vast majority of the rest of the world) is now refusing to subsidize your delusions to even the limited extent that they used to they're now cowardly jerks?

Your world must be a wonderful, brightly colored place.

geni · 31st January 2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back.

You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter.

Jon_in_london · 31st January 2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
Bull. They (some of them) did the absolute minimum they could get away with. They believed the same info that the US did and they have no regard for larger issues, no concern for "petty" things like encouraging democracy, are perfectly happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable, and in the end behave like prissy little brats, like you.

The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!???

Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war?

And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig!

Elind · 31st January 2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter.

I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!???

Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war?

And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig!

You show your hand too easily. That's precisely the point I was making about attitudes, although in the case of Britain (with some obvious exceptions), they have always had more balls and brains than most over there.

geni · 31st January 2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn.

Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own. You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eleatic Stranger
So, Elind, because you were fooled by what were, frankly, dubious claims by the current administration then everybody was fooled. And because you think by means of slogans ("bringing democracy!") instead of carefully considered plans, so does everyone else. And because some of those other people (ie, the vast majority of the rest of the world) is now refusing to subsidize your delusions to even the limited extent that they used to they're now cowardly jerks?

Your world must be a wonderful, brightly colored place.

And I thought you were the one with fantasy colored glasses.

Ask a few Iraqis what they think of you and those who turn tail with you. You might be surprised at what you hear. We will all have to face what history concludes in the not too distant future. I happen to think that you will have nothing to take pride in since all you seem to wish for is to see the USA fail. IF that should happen however, it would be in no small measure due to the spinelessness of so many who would not be free today but for the US; but that is ancient history to children these days, is it not?

AWPrime · 31st January 2005, 03:47 PM

But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US.

I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one.

If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason......

Elind · 31st January 2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AWPrime
But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US.

I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one.

If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason......

?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless.

Seems fair doesn't it?

Elind · 31st January 2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own.

All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US.

You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

?? I don't get the relevance today.

kimiko · 31st January 2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

?? I don't get the relevance today. [/b]

The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think?

geni · 31st January 2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US.

The country was stable for 26 years after we left. That was a peroid that covered WW2 and the creation of Israel.

Quote:

?? I don't get the relevance today.

What you are trying to do is triva. At worst it is a forien adventure gone wrong. Big deal. See what happened to Italy in Etheopia (although the italian would probably rather you didn't), Britian in afganistan or France in most of it's empire. None of these destoryed the county involved any yet you describe this as a pinch.

geni · 31st January 2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless.

Seems fair doesn't it?

Humanitarian obligations? Better send some troops to the DRC then. People are getting eaten there. The troops can join the French ones who are trying to keep the some kind of order there.

H3LL · 31st January 2005, 05:59 PM

Remembering the unwavering support the UK had from the USA during the Suez crisis, I'm amazed that they are still in Iraq.

Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not.

As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kimiko
The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think?

That's not a relevant response, with respect.

Britain may have been the major player a long time ago, but it was hardly alone in formulating the borders in the Middle East. Secondly what it did then has no relevance to what is being done today, except that today is a consequence of yesterday.

I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty. We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them, and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US. Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

Ziggurat · 31st January 2005, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by H3LL
Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not.

As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality.

What I seem to remember from history - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that those nasty Germans WERE Europeans. WWII was still largely an inter-European war we had to step in to end. For the second time. Europe couldn't figure out how to live together peacefully until American GI's made them.

Do Europeans have longer memories than Americans? Perhaps, but they seem amazingly selective memories.

geni · 31st January 2005, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
That's not a relevant response, with respect.

Britain may have been the major player a long time ago, but it was hardly alone in formulating the borders in the Middle East. Secondly what it did then has no relevance to what is being done today, except that today is a consequence of yesterday.

I has a lot of relivance since Britan forumalted and carried out a sucessful exit startergy that left a reasonably stable state in it's wake

Quote:

I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty.

Let just say since I have a reasonable knowlage of human history I find the above very amusing

Quote:

We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them,

We aren't. However invading Iraq has nothing to do with this.

Quote:

and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US.

See DRC for why this opion is dead wrong. I seem to recall something about Sierra leone and Ivory Coast as well. There doesn't seem to be much US involvement in these cases.

Quote:

Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

H3LL · 31st January 2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziggurat
Do Europeans have longer memories than Americans? Perhaps, but they seem amazingly selective memories.

As do you.

Maybe you have forgotten that Hitlers Germany declared war on America. Maybe you feel it would have been appropriate to ignore this but were just stepping in to help out.

So kind.

Elind · 31st January 2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni

I has a lot of relivance since Britan forumalted and carried out a sucessful exit startergy that left a reasonably stable state in it's wake. Let just say since I have a reasonable knowlage of human history I find the above very amusing
.

Ther's that "Reasonably stable" again. And you call that a knowledge of history? Amusing? Perhaps it is.

We aren't. However invading Iraq has nothing to do with this.

Has nothing to do with ...? It has everything to do with correcting some earlier screwups, unless you happen to be one of those who think democracy has no ground among Arabs and Muslims?

See DRC for why this opion is dead wrong. I seem to recall something about Sierra leone and Ivory Coast as well. There doesn't seem to be much US involvement in these cases.

You compare a few minor police actions within what are civil wars with the last two Gulf wars, or Afghanistan, or even the Balkans (the latter did have the support, mostly, that was called for, but again, could not have been accomplished without the USA).? That is not flattering to your sense of proportion.

Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

Tell us again about your knowledge of things historical, and military. I'm not sure I read it right.

No one denies the costs or the pressures it, Iraq, imposes but if you think that is all there is you are simply ignorant. Tell us instead why those listed Europeans claimed to have agreed to support the effort, but provided piddling numbers of forces (mostly not armed) and even then needed to rely on the US to transport much of them. I think it's shameful.

Ziggurat · 31st January 2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Really? Right now it is extreamly questionable whether the US has the militry capacity to do anything much.

The US has 12 aircraft carrier groups. None of them is tied down in Iraq. Yes, we are about at the limit of what we can commit for long-term occupation of a country with ground troops. But in terms of raw firepower, we've still got a lot available, and more importantly, globally deployable. Europe has no comparable ability to project the military strength it has. Hell, they couldn't even handle a festering military problem in their own back yard (Yugoslavia). Where is France's JDAM? Where is Germany's? They don't exist.

There's a reason that the US military was the most significant first-responder to the Tsunami disaster, and bore most of the logistic load in providing aid to remote locations. Europe was hardly on the scene (the French aircraft carrier didn't arrive until several weeks after the disaster, compared to only a few days for a US carrier). The Canadian military wasn't on the scene at ALL, because they didn't even have the capability to transport response teams to the region, even by plane.

When European military forces can take a genuine lead in solving a major crisis, ANY major crisis (even humanitarian), I'll consider them to be grownups who don't need an adult US to make sure they don't get in trouble. Right now, most of the continent is spoiled and resentful adolescents who resent their own growing and self-imposed irrelevance.

kimiko · 31st January 2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty. We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them, and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US. Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

No, we do not care what they think. We care only that they agree with what we think, otherwise, they are labeled spineless/appeasers/etc. Likewise, they have objectives beyond earning the love of the US; it is far more intelligent for them to sit back and let the US handle the entire Iraq situation since we have an apparent agenda in the region, and won't wait for others to join before acting. Saves them money and lives.

Europeans do not live in ivory towers; there are still many alive who witnessed WWII. We, on the other hand, have lived blissfully protected by two oceans and peaceful neighbors, and have not had disputes with aggressive ethnicities on the same landmass within the collective memory.

Not acting was not a problem, as Saddamy didn't have the capability to do anything to them anyway. In fact, the only thing I see any cooperative European country as having gotten out of their support is dead troops and a terrorist train attack. Hardly worthwhile.

27th January 2005, 06:05 PM	#1
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	There go the Europeans again Dutch troops are expected to withdraw by March 15, after the country's parliament opposed any further extension of the deployment mandate, the Lib Dems said. The new Ukrainian government is expected to reduce the size of its 1,600-strong military force, and Poland is cutting its contingent from 2,400 troops to 1,700. Hungary withdrew its 300 soldiers last month. Portugal announced in November that it would not maintain its 120-strong police contingent in Iraq next month. Italy and Romania have also indicated that they may pull out after the elections, the Lib Dems said. I suppose they say that IF a few WMDs had been found they would now be adding forces to help Iraq? Bull. Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back.

27th January 2005, 06:09 PM	#2
Silicon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,644	Hey, Don't demean poland! [IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/prez.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/ship.jpg [/IMG] [IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/forget_about_it.jpg [/IMG] http://www.youforgotpoland.com/
Silicon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,644	__________________ Man, if this isn't exactly what Alexander Hamilton warned us about in Federalist #84. -Shanek

27th January 2005, 07:37 PM	#4
KelvinG Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 2,379	Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about countries pulling out troops. After all, Bush announced that combat operations had ended in Iraq long ago.
	__________________ Science is like a blabbermouth that ruins the ending to a movie. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things - Ned Flanders

27th January 2005, 08:06 PM	#5
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Quote: Originally posted by KelvinG Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about countries pulling out troops. After all, Bush announced that combat operations had ended in Iraq long ago. So it will be easy to show a link quoting him saying precisely that, right?
	__________________ [This Space Available. PM for Rates.]

27th January 2005, 08:09 PM	#6
Mrick Scholar Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 53	Good Point Silicon Quote: Originally posted by Silicon Hey, Don't demean poland! http://www.youforgotpoland.com/ :-) - That was pretty funny. Thanks. Mrick
Mrick Scholar Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 53

27th January 2005, 06:14 PM	#3
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by Silicon Hey, Don't demean poland! Wasn't on the list was it?

27th January 2005, 08:13 PM	#7
KelvinG Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 2,379	Quote: Originally posted by NoZed Avenger So it will be easy to show a link quoting him saying precisely that, right? http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm
	__________________ Science is like a blabbermouth that ruins the ending to a movie. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things - Ned Flanders

27th January 2005, 09:08 PM	#8
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Quote: Originally posted by KelvinG http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rm/20203.htm Perhaps I was not clear. Do you have a link showing he said precisely that?
	__________________ [This Space Available. PM for Rates.]

27th January 2005, 09:23 PM	#9
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by NoZed Avenger Perhaps I was not clear. Do you have a link showing he said precisely that? I don't really think it matters. Bush did say something to the effect that major combat was over, and that was true in a military sense. You are just being baited on this issue, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

27th January 2005, 09:31 PM	#10
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Elind I don't really think it matters. Bush did say something to the effect that major combat was over, and that was true in a military sense. You are just being baited on this issue, which is irrelevant to the subject at hand. So, your interpretation of a banner constitutes evidence. That, coupled with some vague but uncited memory of something to that effect possibly being intimated at some stage under some circumstances. Allegedly. Funny, around these here parts we call that putting words into someone's mouth.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

28th January 2005, 07:03 AM	#11
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko So, your interpretation of a banner constitutes evidence. That, coupled with some vague but uncited memory of something to that effect possibly being intimated at some stage under some circumstances. Allegedly. Funny, around these here parts we call that putting words into someone's mouth. I think you're responding to a quote about a quote and have yourself turned the wrong way. I suggest starting at the top in this case.

28th January 2005, 07:14 AM	#12
Hutch A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B Posts: 6,539	From the US Today Archives of 30 April 2003. While not proof that President Bush said those exact words, it does indicate that the thought was there. Quote: The White House has asked TV networks to carry Bush's remarks at 9 p.m. ET. He'll speak from the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln as it heads toward San Diego. The carrier has been deployed since July 20, 2002. Bush will sleep on the ship and fly ashore Friday before it docks. (Related item: President's jet plans are nixed.) The president will describe "what was at stake, what has been accomplished" in Iraq "so we can all join together in saying thanks to the men and women of our armed forces who helped achieve this remarkable success," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. Bush will say "major combat operations" have ended, Fleischer said, but "there are pockets of resistance, there continue to be Iraqis who shoot at America's armed forces." Fleischer said he could not predict "when, from a formal legal sense, hostilities will be deemed to be over." Edited to add: Ah, I see, it would appear that we are debating the use of the word "major", as in 'major combat operations' (which Bush did say) vs. 'combat operations', which he did not. I will leave it to the rest to dance on the head of this pin.
	__________________ If sheer righteous fury could accomplish anything worthwhile, Wolverines would have inherited the Galaxy long ago." -Web DuHavel, David Weber's "Honorverse" Series

28th January 2005, 07:19 AM	#13
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by Hutch From the US Today Archives of 30 April 2003. While not proof that President Bush said those exact words, it does indicate that the thought was there. Thanks for the clarification. The thought and the meaning seem quite clear, now and then, so perhaps this little slanging diversion can now be put to rest?

28th January 2005, 07:23 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Just glad the UK isn't part of this imaginary country called "Europe".
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th January 2005, 07:28 AM	#15
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Elind I suppose they say that IF a few WMDs had been found they would now be adding forces to help Iraq? Bull. Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back. The Europeans did the job they signed up for, but the fact is they were fed a pack of likes about the reasons for the war. Now America has re-elected the retard who took them into Iraq on false pretences, and Bush voters arrogantly proclaim they couldn't care less about Europe's opinion on the matter, can you really blame them for packing up and going home?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

28th January 2005, 12:21 PM	#16
Eleatic Stranger Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 439	There Goes My Girlfriend Again.... So, a month ago I told my girlfriend that we should go to the beach for the weekend. "Come on," I said, "It'll be fun! We'll sleep in, wade around in the surf, and eat horribly unhealthy food while wearing very little in the sun! The trip isn't that long, and it's well worth the effort!" "That doesn't sound like a bad idea," she said, "but isn't the beach 1,000 miles away, and isn't it a mine field?" "No!" I said "That's ludicrous nonsense. Don't you trust me?" "Well," she said "I suppose I'll go, just for a little". So we got in the car and started driving. Now, the first day or so she was mostly quiet and helped me out, but the second day was something different. "Didn't you say it was a short trip?" she asked, "Didn't you say we'd get there hours ago?" "Don't worry," I said, "The turnoff is right ahead." "OK," she said, "but I'm having my doubts about this." Three days of driving later she really started getting on my nerves. "Why aren't we there yet?" she complained, "The weekend is over and I have work I need to do. Can we turn around and go back? I'm wearing clothes that haven't been washed in days!" "Now now," I told her, "You committed yourself to this and we have to see it through. Don't get faint hearted! The beach is only a few miles away, and once we get there we'll have a great weekend." When we finally arrived at the beach it turned out to be covered in mines. "Wow," I said, "I didn't expect that." "What are you talking about?" She yelled, "Everyone including me told you that!" "Let's not be revisionist about this dear," I said, calming her down, "Everyone thought the beach would be nice -- no one had any idea about these mines. Now, put on your protective gear and let's get to work digging out these mines and clearing the beach." And now, just today, she's announced she wants to go home -- and we're only days away from having the nice holiday we planned to! I'm starting to think I should break up with her - she's just not reliable.

31st January 2005, 09:10 AM	#17
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Ian Osborne The Europeans did the job they signed up for, but the fact is they were fed a pack of likes about the reasons for the war. Now America has re-elected the retard who took them into Iraq on false pretences, and Bush voters arrogantly proclaim they couldn't care less about Europe's opinion on the matter, can you really blame them for packing up and going home? Bull. They (some of them) did the absolute minimum they could get away with. They believed the same info that the US did and they have no regard for larger issues, no concern for "petty" things like encouraging democracy, are perfectly happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable, and in the end behave like prissy little brats, like you.

31st January 2005, 09:11 AM	#18
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Just glad the UK isn't part of this imaginary country called "Europe". Me too.

31st January 2005, 09:16 AM	#19
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Re: There Goes My Girlfriend Again.... Quote: Originally posted by Eleatic Stranger So, a month ago I told my girlfriend that we should go to the beach for the weekend. "Come on," I said, "It'll be fun! We'll sleep in, wade around in the surf, and eat horribly unhealthy food while wearing very little in the sun! The trip isn't that long, and it's well worth the effort!"............ Childish analogy and typical of those who can't face realities if they get difficult.

31st January 2005, 11:26 AM	#20
Eleatic Stranger Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 439	So, Elind, because you were fooled by what were, frankly, dubious claims by the current administration then everybody was fooled. And because you think by means of slogans ("bringing democracy!") instead of carefully considered plans, so does everyone else. And because some of those other people (ie, the vast majority of the rest of the world) is now refusing to subsidize your delusions to even the limited extent that they used to they're now cowardly jerks? Your world must be a wonderful, brightly colored place.

31st January 2005, 11:53 AM	#21
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Elind Remind me never to count on Europeans in a pinch; and I trust the Iraqis will also remember a few years from now when same hypocrits try to send their salesmen back. You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter.

31st January 2005, 12:46 PM	#22
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Elind Bull. They (some of them) did the absolute minimum they could get away with. They believed the same info that the US did and they have no regard for larger issues, no concern for "petty" things like encouraging democracy, are perfectly happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable, and in the end behave like prissy little brats, like you. The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!??? Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war? And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig!
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

31st January 2005, 03:22 PM	#23
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by geni You don't appear to be in a pinch you existance as a nation isn't threataned and neither is your status as a super power. A few thousand troops either way doesn't really matter. I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn.

31st January 2005, 03:26 PM	#24
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london The "absolute minimum they could get away with"!!!??? Get away with what? Avoiding a spanking from big bad uncle sam for not playing war? And I wouldnt talk too loud about being "happy to live with any dictatorships as long as it's profitable" you stupid yankee imperialst pig! You show your hand too easily. That's precisely the point I was making about attitudes, although in the case of Britain (with some obvious exceptions), they have always had more balls and brains than most over there.

31st January 2005, 03:28 PM	#25
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Elind I guess you make my point. To these people it's all trivia and they don't give a damn. Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own. You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description.

31st January 2005, 03:35 PM	#26
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by Eleatic Stranger So, Elind, because you were fooled by what were, frankly, dubious claims by the current administration then everybody was fooled. And because you think by means of slogans ("bringing democracy!") instead of carefully considered plans, so does everyone else. And because some of those other people (ie, the vast majority of the rest of the world) is now refusing to subsidize your delusions to even the limited extent that they used to they're now cowardly jerks? Your world must be a wonderful, brightly colored place. And I thought you were the one with fantasy colored glasses. Ask a few Iraqis what they think of you and those who turn tail with you. You might be surprised at what you hear. We will all have to face what history concludes in the not too distant future. I happen to think that you will have nothing to take pride in since all you seem to wish for is to see the USA fail. IF that should happen however, it would be in no small measure due to the spinelessness of so many who would not be free today but for the US; but that is ancient history to children these days, is it not?

31st January 2005, 03:47 PM	#27
AWPrime Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,929	But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US. I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one. If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason......
AWPrime Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,929	__________________ Sir Arthur C. Clarke - "Any sufficiently advanced technology, to the uninformed observer, is indistinguishable from magic." c4ts - "Jesus loves the little children, Nice and fat and honey roasted..." Lancastic = Demonstrative of outstanding personal effort in the exposing of frauds. Rob Lister - "The enemy of my enemy probably tastes yummy. "

31st January 2005, 05:11 PM	#28
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by AWPrime But, no matter what happens be it good or bad, the allies will always remember that they were lied to by the US. I have said that no WMD stockpiles would be found and I was proven right and I am not the only one. If only the US had the guts to use the humitarian reason as sole reason...... ?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless. Seems fair doesn't it?

31st January 2005, 05:18 PM	#29
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by geni Well of course it is. You are trying to occupy an area which Britian manged to occupy and set up a reasonably stable state on it's own. All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US. You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description. ?? I don't get the relevance today.

31st January 2005, 05:33 PM	#30
kimiko Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 779	Quote: Originally posted by Elind You have a much larger population and manufactoring base than Britian had at that point. At the same time Britan was still recovering fromn world war one and trying to occupy a fair size empire. Trivial is quite a good description. ?? I don't get the relevance today. [/b] The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think?

31st January 2005, 05:55 PM	#31
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There go the Europeans again Quote: Originally posted by Elind All of the West were responsible for "creating" Iraq, and responsible for the mess that followed, which I also think implies a responsibility to make corrections, however late they are, and in whatever circumstances they became possible. But to whitewash it all by describing pre war Iraq as a "reasonably stable state" is putting your head in the sand. Try asking hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis, Iraninans or Kuwaitis what they think of that "stable" state and then ask yourself what you think of your world view, regardless of what you think of the US. The country was stable for 26 years after we left. That was a peroid that covered WW2 and the creation of Israel. Quote: ?? I don't get the relevance today. What you are trying to do is triva. At worst it is a forien adventure gone wrong. Big deal. See what happened to Italy in Etheopia (although the italian would probably rather you didn't), Britian in afganistan or France in most of it's empire. None of these destoryed the county involved any yet you describe this as a pinch.

31st January 2005, 05:57 PM	#32
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,578	Quote: Originally posted by Elind ?? You can call it lies and ignore all the other issues if it helps your excuses to do nothing, and you can pretend you have no humanitarian obligations to help decent Iraqis gain freedom just because you don't like the USA; and I can call you spineless. Seems fair doesn't it? Humanitarian obligations? Better send some troops to the DRC then. People are getting eaten there. The troops can join the French ones who are trying to keep the some kind of order there.

31st January 2005, 05:59 PM	#33
H3LL Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: (ləʊˈkeɪʃən) - n. 1. a site or position; situation. Posts: 4,976	Remembering the unwavering support the UK had from the USA during the Suez crisis, I'm amazed that they are still in Iraq. Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not. As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality.
	__________________ "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it". - PTerry Top 10 Reasons Why I Procrastinate: 1.

31st January 2005, 06:33 PM	#34
Elind Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 6,622	Quote: Originally posted by kimiko The relevance is that we haven't accomplished today what Britain was able to do some time ago with much less. What are we doing whining about needing other countries to help when we don't actually care what they think? That's not a relevant response, with respect. Britain may have been the major player a long time ago, but it was hardly alone in formulating the borders in the Middle East. Secondly what it did then has no relevance to what is being done today, except that today is a consequence of yesterday. I don't think we, I, are whining. We are telling it like it is, and it's not pretty. We do care what others think, but the objective is not love of Europeans, which will never be achieved. The objective is for Europeans to recognize that they can't live in ivory towers anymore and hope the bad guys won't see them, and that they can't do squat on their own if they think they want to influence change in the world without the US. Of course many opinions expressed here have no desire to influence anything and are happy to keep doing business as usual. They know that if things ever got really bad, they can always count on the US to save their asses regardless.

31st January 2005, 06:54 PM	#35
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,220	Quote: Originally posted by H3LL Americans have short memories. It seems the Europeans do not. As some Americans seem to think that Europeans all sat down supping tea or wine while they sorted out those nasty Germans and Japanese all alone, maybe they think it's time their rhetoric matched reality. What I seem to remember from history - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that those nasty Germans WERE Europeans. WWII was still largely an inter-European war we had to step in to end. For the second time. Europe couldn't figure out how to live together peacefully until American GI's made them. Do Europeans have longer memories than Americans? Perhaps, but they seem amazingly selective memories.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law