ABC "John of God" segment

[jmercer]

Randi was good, as were a few others. I could have wished that ABC would have taken a more "This is an expose" approach. I found the way it was structured and edited left the entire thing wide-open to interpretation either way.

[L7Cz]

[/biased rant]
Of course it did! To imply that either the woos or the skeptics were in possession of the truth would alienate sponsors (and their dollars) in direct violation of any television network's primary function: to raise money for the owner(s). All commercial (non-government owned/subsidized) broadcast networks operate under this requirement. And now that the entertainment and business factions have cemented their control of the news reporting branches, there is and will continue to be less and less objective reporting on anything and more and more of items that are either sensational (i.e., will grab viewers' interest) or can be promoted as sensational ("Strippers and priests -- together -- in YOUR neighborhood!!!!!!"), simply because the ratings are the sole influence on the bottom line.
[/biased rant off]

Seriously, given the track record of the broadcast media on any skeptic (uptight fuddy-duddy spoilsports)/woo (free thinkers who may just be right, science doesn't know...) dust-up, did you really think a national network would pick sides?

[jmercer]

You know, actually, I didn't catch the first half - I walked in just as Randi was shown, then watched the rest of the show. After reading some of the other threads, it appears that ABC changed their initials to WOO.

Now I wish I'd seen the whole thing, because people are claiming that ABC put Randi in a bad light and supported the woo factor.

[coalesce]

Not having seen the entire first half hour of the program, I have to say the second half was quite pro-John of God. The doctor who examined videotape of the previously-paralyzed woman walking in between two balance bars gave lip service to the obvious "mind over matter" angle and instead was quite emphatic about "we should investigate this." I would've preferred to see this woman's physician and get his/her opinion--someone who has treated the woman over a long period of time as opposed to a physician looking at a videotape. There wasn't nearly enough emphasis on the last woman, the South African woman with the breast cancer who underwent surgery from John of God. When she left Brazil and returned home, it was shown that the cancer was, in fact, still there and growing. Why didn't anyone ask that doctor who did the follow-up examination what he thought of psychic surgery. And in case I missed it, did John Quinones do a follow-up visit with his physician about his partially-torn rotator cuff that John of God supposedly cured?

Pretty disappointing, I must say.

Michael

[LovleAnjel]

Mr. Quinones did not give us a follow-up, although John of God did tell him it would take 40 days to heal (as opposed to the physical therapist, who said 2-3 weeks of exercises would do it).

I liked how the show tried to be "investigative" by having Quinones go up. Makes me miss Dateline.

[jmercer]

Good point. And welcome to the forums!

[kedo1981]

I watched the whole thing and here are few observations.

The lady with “chronic fatigue syndrome (fake illness)’ and “allergies so severe she couldn’t function was an attention seeking nut job. “oh yes I have deadly allergic reactions but I can eat a salad in a back water restaurant in Brazil and not bat an eye.

The South African dancer (lovely girl) was (is) to vain to have her beautiful breasts cut off (and they were beautiful) to save her own life, she is a suicide case, and completely refuse to admit that it was a waste of her precious time.

The guy with the brain tumor had already had chemo; that could have been what slowed the tumor growth. He felt much better after his visit to “John of God” Hell, he found himself a hot Brazilian babe while he was down there (I’d feel great too)

The guy with ALS had no improvement

One segment stated (most people in Brazil speak only Portuguese) but did you see the sign ALL DONATIONS ACCEPTED in english.

[JoeRagg]

What a dissapointment that show was.
I waited until 10:00 to see what Randi had to say.
He was interviewed alright, ALL TEN SECONDS of him!!!
I'm sure he had more to say, but it probably ended up on the cutting room floor. Who cares what a skeptic has to say when they can have faith in some guy who sticks a huge q-tip up your nose in order to scramble your pituitary gland.

[Gr8wight]

Quote:

Originally posted by LovleAnjel
Mr. Quinones did not give us a follow-up, although John of God did tell him it would take 40 days to heal (as opposed to the physical therapist, who said 2-3 weeks of exercises would do it).

I liked how the show tried to be "investigative" by having Quinones go up. Makes me miss Dateline.

He did, in fact, mention that after 40 days he felt no improvement. He then gave the charlatan his out by admitting he had not abstained from the things he had been told to.

[Suew0]

Quote:

He did, in fact, mention that after 40 days he felt no improvement. He then gave the charlatan his out by admitting he had not abstained from the things he had been told to.

Yes, that pretty much negated the whole point of having his own ailment treated. Now if it doesn't work, they can just blame him for not following directions. Sheesh! It ended up being a waste of airtime that could have been given to someone with something useful to say.

I wish the show had gone into a little more detail about what that ghastly nose operation was about. It reminded me of those frontal lobotomies they used to perform on mental patients. If the procedure causes minor brain damage, it would not be surprising if the patients "felt different" afterwards, or even felt better.

What is also needed is long-term follow-up of a good sampling of patients who have gone to this guy. Instead we just got to hear from a few people who either showed unremarkable improvement, no improvement, and one possible cure. And lots of airy talk about how they really really believe in the guy, no matter happens. Now John of God will probably be swamped with a whole new crowd of desperate people looking for a cure.

[Cosmophilosopher]

This is my take on it.
They made the show ambiguous at best.
Why would they do this?

Right now, reality shows are tanking, and some of these new "supernatural" TV shows seem to be the new wave.
So the network puts out stories like this, to create some FASCINATION for the credulous unwashed masses. So its just cross-marketing for their supernatural TV shows.

Also, advertisers LOVE credulous audiences. They will believe anything.

So it seems pretty obvious to me that they have a positioning agenda, and are looking to create a fertile climate for supernatural type TV shows involving "life after death" subjects. After all, John of Scamola, says he is "channelling" these dead guys, so that's the Life After Death angel.

Hey, if people will believe that crap, they will certainly believe that Tide makes your whites whiter, and Crest will help you find love.

Remember, TV is all about Money. (when its not about politics).

Also, they could have done a show about the possible effects of Belief on health, and psychosomatic effects.
Or, they could have showed people who have gone there and then died.
There are "spontaneous regressions" for tumours, but lots of people die too.

This is really sad.
Right now, mark my words, many people with grave illnesses are on a airplane to this John of Scamola's compound.
Mexico has become a health con-artists Disneyland. I personally know people who have gone to Mexico for this type of thing...

Coz

[Vortex]

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeRagg
What a dissapointment that show was.
I waited until 10:00 to see what Randi had to say.
He was interviewed alright, ALL TEN SECONDS of him!!!
I'm sure he had more to say, but it probably ended up on the cutting room floor. Who cares what a skeptic has to say when they can have faith in some guy who sticks a huge q-tip up your nose in order to scramble your pituitary gland.

What a joke the show was! That q-tip was nothing more than a telescoping pointer shoved a half inch up the nose with a sprinkle of chicken blood thrown in for effect... lol. "Oh, she has breast cancer, I know, I'll perform the nose pointer trick" "Oh, this one doesn't have breast cancer but she has nice breasts so I'll do the superficial cut trick" Calling the gods into existence to perform "invisible" surgery had me laughing. Yup, what a joke the program was... and then they only allowed Randi like 8 seconds edited in such a way as to try to lend credence to all the nonsense!

[RandFan]

The show made me angry. There was so much wrong with it. Why was "physical" surgery sometimes used and "invisible" surgery used at other times? Is one more effective than the other? The narator admits that the evidence is anecdotal, so what's the point? Sugar pills will heal people also (anecdotaly). What reason is there for the Doctor to be open minded to alternative medicine? Would he be open minded to blood letting?

After watching John of God I watched "Something the Lord Made". Don't let the title fool you. The movie is about a doctor and his research assistance pioneering heart surgery in the face of ignorance and bigotry using the scientific method. What a difference.

John of God is a real @$$.

[TheOtherOne]

I agree and question ABC’s motive for airing the show, given they seemed hell bent on it not being an expose. At the end of the day, nobody was cured and they couldn’t dig up a single person who had been ‘miraculously’ cured in the past. Much like Seinfeld, it was a show about nothing.

As for the editing, I want to point out a very clever trick they used about 30 minutes into the program in the lead-out to commercial. After being bored to tears for the first half hour, me and the group I was watching the show with gasped when Quinones appeared to exclaim “You’re doing it for the money!” as if responding to a confession from John of God. “Ah-ha!” we thought, “now we’re getting to the meat of the story.”

However, during the actual interview, Quinones simply asks “Are you doing it for the money?” Not having the luxury of a rewind button, we all thought we must have misheard the previous lead-out. This was a well done illusion that fooled me twice – only the second time, I did have a rewind button.

Ultimately, I’m grateful to ABC for airing this show because I will never trust a sound bite again.

[JoeRagg]

I believe it was the skeptic Ray Hyman who said: When it comes to television, science is always the loser.

[rwguinn]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vortex
What a joke the show was! That q-tip was nothing more than a telescoping pointer shoved a half inch up the nose with a sprinkle of chicken blood thrown in for effect... lol. "Oh, she has breast cancer, I know, I'll perform the nose pointer trick" "Oh, this one doesn't have breast cancer but she has nice breasts so I'll do the superficial cut trick" Calling the gods into existence to perform "invisible" surgery had me laughing. Yup, what a joke the program was... and then they only allowed Randi like 8 seconds edited in such a way as to try to lend credence to all the nonsense!

Back on after a long hiatus:

you forgot the part about groping them first...
And I can't help but wonder, after seeing the diagram in the Commentary, if this wasn't a case of distraction.
You know--breaking the patients leg tends to make him forget about the chest pain he was having--for a little while

[CrunchyMush]

TV stations, or at least program producers, need to watch themselves reporting this nonsense with the amount of lawsuits comming up nowdays. They've run a supposedly factual news show which portrays this guy as being potentially the real deal. They've shown a deliberately biased view indicating all kinds of anecdotal evidence supporting his claims, but failing to show all of the medical evidence which shows he's a quack.

If someone goes in for treatment and winds up with brain damage because he shoved forceps too far up their nose, wouldn't they have grounds to sue the station or the shows producers for failing to point out the plethora of medical evidence against "John of God's" claims?

I personally think everyone's personal health is their own responsibility and if you fail to investigate the treatments you take thoroughly, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. However I'd still like to see a lawsuit like this happen to drive home the message that these people aren't harmless and pretending they are can cause real damage.

[Brown]

I cringed when I read this: Columnist Rob Borsellino of the Des Moines Register was recently diagnosed with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), and today he disclosed the fact to his readers.

Quote:

And once the word gets out, folks I run into will be asking about my health instead of getting in my face about the Register's liberal bias.

Sometimes it works, it takes my mind off what's really going on.

But then I try to button a shirt or make a phone call sounding sober, and I'm slapped back down to reality.

It happens when I look at my night table and see the little glass angel Laurie Gallo sent me from the Bronx, the angel blessed by Father Grippo at St. Theresa's.

It happens when I wake up in the middle of the night and my wife's lying there awake, thinking about how we went from planning our life as empty nesters to worrying about survival.

Or I hear that I'm being remembered in a Sikh temple in New Delhi at a prayer service put together by my in-laws.

Or a friend of a friend e-mails about a miracle-worker, a shaman in Brazil who might be worth seeing.

I cringed not because he mentioned this "shaman" (after all, he didn't mention the shaman's name or offer any endorsement of his ability, but rather used a word that implied he was more like a witch doctor), but because Borsellino writes about his change in perspective. When some people are faced with bad news confirmed by science, religion takes a more prominent position. It is human nature.

How can one NOT feel sympathy for an individual who has learned of such a diagnosis? How can one NOT feel helpless to assist, to cure, to make the problem go away? In such circumstances, religion seems not to be the best alternative, but to be the only alternative, short of doing nothing.

And this is why folks like the Brazilian shaman are the lowest of the low. They take advantage of sincere religious faith. They take advantage of the intense emotions, especially the feelings of helplessness. They take advantage of the desperation. They take advantage... and provide nothing in return.

[rwgain02]

My mother has visited John of God twice. This is as close to a firsthand account as I care to get.

I can assure you that the discussions I had with my mother upon her return bordered on "interrogation". I have a medical background but am NOT a licensed physician. After reviewing the videos she bought while there, several interviews with her, and the ABC special I came to a few conclusions.

1.) These people are put into a particular mental state before meeting John of God which explains their inability to feel pain as he cuts them or jams forceps up their nose. They go through an intense amount of meditation, prayer, and other wu wu. I don't think John could walk up to a stranger on the street and jam forceps up their nose without them feeling pain: that WOULD be a miracle!

2.) The forcep/pituitary claim must be rejected for several reasons. First, I do not believe he is not going up the nasal cavity far enough. Second, he does this for a number of ailments besides breast cancer (debunking the pituitary/breast cancer theory). Third, what medical evidence is there that "striking" the pituitary makes it work better? None that I am aware of. It leads me to an additional question; why forceps at all? Isn't there a more humane instrument (read BLUNT) that would do this more effectively?

3.) My mother and the group of four she went with experienced everything from no effect to short-term healing effects. Which can easily be explained by their restricted diet while in a relaxing environment. No magic involved...

They basically just had an odd vacation that included a heavy dose of christian-based spirituality mixed with hypnotic suggestion and mysticism. Neither trip had any long-term healing of my mother. I am just thankful that her problems are not terminal. The most major illness she has is due to a few decades of exposure to a virulent ideology called catholicism.

My apologies in advance for the cross-post.