What is Da Bluz?

crimresearch · 22nd February 2005, 10:47 AM

In order to spare a thread in politics, in which a 'famous blues' song was quoted (by Lynyrd Skynrd), and Solomon Burke was named as a Grammy winning blues artist, I decided to start this thread.
(It is grounds for instant banning on many blues forums, BTW).

In the last week, I've come across the following people cited as examples of 'the real deal' in the blues, and for the life of me, I fail to see where they can seriously be considered as blues at all.
(This has nothng to do with talent, good vs. bad, or who you like, just genre appropriateness).

Joss Stone
Chris Thomas King
Solomon Burke
Lynyrd Skynrd, and other boogie-till-you-puke aging rockers.
Eric Clapton ( who by himslef is a taboo topic on many blues lists)

Again, I don't care if you *like* these people, or if you think they can't play their way out of a wet paper bag, I just want to know why people think they are blues.

Is it the way the dress? The faces they make while performing? The authenticity of their guitars? Lineage? Whaaaat???

And the flip side of this argument is the stuffed in a glass case syndrome that insists that it can't be blues unless it was recorded on 78s, or some varation therof.

So by that token why are the following NOT blues?

Otis Taylor?
Gillian Welch?
Mose Allison?
Ben Harper?
White Stripes?

Discuss.....

shecky · 22nd February 2005, 03:18 PM

"Da Bluz"?

crimresearch · 22nd February 2005, 03:24 PM

Its like 'Da Bearrzzz' only somehow....sadder.

fishbob · 31st March 2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
In the last week, I've come across the following people cited as examples of 'the real deal' in the blues, and for the life of me, I fail to see where they can seriously be considered as blues at all.
(This has nothng to do with talent, good vs. bad, or who you like, just genre appropriateness).

Joss Stone
Chris Thomas King
Solomon Burke
Lynyrd Skynrd, and other boogie-till-you-puke aging rockers.
Eric Clapton ( who by himslef is a taboo topic on many blues lists)

Again, I don't care if you *like* these people, or if you think they can't play their way out of a wet paper bag, I just want to know why people think they are blues.

People like to classify stuff. Sometimes you might not agree with those opinions - and opinions is all it is. Except calling Lynyrd Skynyrd blues - now that is just stupid.

See what I mean?

I'm guessing if it sounds sort of like what the 3 Kings (Albert, Freddie, BB) played, it ought to be blues. If it sounds sort of like Fred McDowell, or Mance Lipscomb, or Lightnin Hopkins, or Howlin Wolf, or Otis Spann, or McKinley Morganfield, or Johnny Winter, or John Lee Hooker, or the Vaughn boys - it ought to be the blues.

crimresearch · 31st March 2005, 06:38 AM

Good point...people do seem to rely on labels...

I guess what I have a problem with, is that Johhny Winter sounds nothing like John Lee Hooker, and B.B. King sounds very different from Muddy Waters...so at some point, the best blues artists had to quit being faithful to 'sounds like' and do their own thing..which we now pretty much agree is 'real blues' too.
So there is an intangible 'blues feel' that is hard to pin down..but after an artist fights the labelling concept long enough, suddenly in retrospect, people realize that had 'it'.

Chris Thomas King spent his whole career rejecting the 'blues stereotype' and insisting that he was a rocker or singer songwriter, or whatever...
and then I turn on the TV and he is on a blues documentary saying 'we' and 'paid my blues dues' like everyone else.

And I have yet to hear a single note from Ms. Stone that is anything other than blue eyed soul ...does that now make Hall and Oates and Michael Bolton 'the blues'?

Ah well..sometimes I feel...

phildonnia · 31st March 2005, 09:25 AM

It's definitely blues if it has a swing beat and a C-C-F-C-G-C chord pattern (or something similar). For example: "Your Momma Don't Dance".

I would also admit ZZ Top's "La Grange" , just for the beat, even though it's a one-chord song. This doesn't mean that Avril Lavigne's "Complicated" gets in though.

"Johnny B. Goode", and "Been a long time" are blues, just based on the chord pattern, even though they have a rock-n-roll beat.

crimresearch · 31st March 2005, 10:23 AM

Well, both Led Zeppelin and Z.Z. Top have been sued for plagiarizing classic blues riffs, and even without that, I think they often capture that essential blues feel....

Chuck Berry OTOH, was famously referred to as 'that country' guitar player by a well known blues pianist...

And Long John Baldry delivered the definitive treatise on the difference between 'boogie woogie' and the blues...

Mojo · 31st March 2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
Good point...people do seem to rely on labels...

I guess what I have a problem with, is that Johhny Winter sounds nothing like John Lee Hooker, and B.B. King sounds very different from Muddy Waters...so at some point, the best blues artists had to quit being faithful to 'sounds like' and do their own thing..which we now pretty much agree is 'real blues' too.
So there is an intangible 'blues feel' that is hard to pin down..but after an artist fights the labelling concept long enough, suddenly in retrospect, people realize that had 'it'.

I agree that "what blues is" is extremely hard to pin down, but I know it when I hear it. There's also a big overlap between blues, gospel and soul, which are often based around the same musical ideas and techniques - sometimes even by the same artists.

How would you define the music of Blind Willie Johnson, for example? It's "obviously" gospel, but change the subject matter and...

Quote:

Chris Thomas King spent his whole career rejecting the 'blues stereotype' and insisting that he was a rocker or singer songwriter, or whatever...
and then I turn on the TV and he is on a blues documentary saying 'we' and 'paid my blues dues' like everyone else.

Is this perhaps more to do with the current (comparative) high profile of blues (and in particular "authentic" blues, for want of a better term) as a genre? I remember a magazine interview from the early 80s, when blues didn't exactly have a high profile, with a British blues-rock guitarist who when asked about American blues musicians said something along the lines of "who wants to listen to some poor old guy sitting on a porch playing out of tune" (I can't remember the exact phrase, but the words "old guy," "out of tune" and "porch" were definitely in there). More recently, of course, he has "rediscovered his roots."

Mojo · 31st March 2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phildonnia
It's definitely blues if it has a swing beat and a C-C-F-C-G-C chord pattern (or something similar).

This is what a friend of mine, who is an octogenarian former jazz and big band saxophonist and arranger, would describe as a blues. It's not the same thing as The Blues.

In fact, he insists that only the 12-bar pattern constitutes "a blues." If a tune is an eight bar blues, like Key to the Highway, for example, he wouldn't describe it as such.

Wudang · 31st March 2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shecky
"Da Bluz"?

Pillory's pronunciation of Das Boot.

22nd February 2005, 10:47 AM	#1
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	What is Da Bluz? In order to spare a thread in politics, in which a 'famous blues' song was quoted (by Lynyrd Skynrd), and Solomon Burke was named as a Grammy winning blues artist, I decided to start this thread. (It is grounds for instant banning on many blues forums, BTW). In the last week, I've come across the following people cited as examples of 'the real deal' in the blues, and for the life of me, I fail to see where they can seriously be considered as blues at all. (This has nothng to do with talent, good vs. bad, or who you like, just genre appropriateness). Joss Stone Chris Thomas King Solomon Burke Lynyrd Skynrd, and other boogie-till-you-puke aging rockers. Eric Clapton ( who by himslef is a taboo topic on many blues lists) Again, I don't care if you like these people, or if you think they can't play their way out of a wet paper bag, I just want to know why people think they are blues. Is it the way the dress? The faces they make while performing? The authenticity of their guitars? Lineage? Whaaaat??? And the flip side of this argument is the stuffed in a glass case syndrome that insists that it can't be blues unless it was recorded on 78s, or some varation therof. So by that token why are the following NOT blues? Otis Taylor? Gillian Welch? Mose Allison? Ben Harper? White Stripes? Discuss.....
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

22nd February 2005, 03:24 PM	#3
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Its like 'Da Bearrzzz' only somehow....sadder.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

31st March 2005, 01:08 AM	#4
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	Re: What is Da Bluz? Quote: Originally posted by crimresearch In the last week, I've come across the following people cited as examples of 'the real deal' in the blues, and for the life of me, I fail to see where they can seriously be considered as blues at all. (This has nothng to do with talent, good vs. bad, or who you like, just genre appropriateness). Joss Stone Chris Thomas King Solomon Burke Lynyrd Skynrd, and other boogie-till-you-puke aging rockers. Eric Clapton ( who by himslef is a taboo topic on many blues lists) Again, I don't care if you like these people, or if you think they can't play their way out of a wet paper bag, I just want to know why people think they are blues. People like to classify stuff. Sometimes you might not agree with those opinions - and opinions is all it is. Except calling Lynyrd Skynyrd blues - now that is just stupid. See what I mean? I'm guessing if it sounds sort of like what the 3 Kings (Albert, Freddie, BB) played, it ought to be blues. If it sounds sort of like Fred McDowell, or Mance Lipscomb, or Lightnin Hopkins, or Howlin Wolf, or Otis Spann, or McKinley Morganfield, or Johnny Winter, or John Lee Hooker, or the Vaughn boys - it ought to be the blues.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

31st March 2005, 06:38 AM	#5
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Good point...people do seem to rely on labels... I guess what I have a problem with, is that Johhny Winter sounds nothing like John Lee Hooker, and B.B. King sounds very different from Muddy Waters...so at some point, the best blues artists had to quit being faithful to 'sounds like' and do their own thing..which we now pretty much agree is 'real blues' too. So there is an intangible 'blues feel' that is hard to pin down..but after an artist fights the labelling concept long enough, suddenly in retrospect, people realize that had 'it'. Chris Thomas King spent his whole career rejecting the 'blues stereotype' and insisting that he was a rocker or singer songwriter, or whatever... and then I turn on the TV and he is on a blues documentary saying 'we' and 'paid my blues dues' like everyone else. And I have yet to hear a single note from Ms. Stone that is anything other than blue eyed soul ...does that now make Hall and Oates and Michael Bolton 'the blues'? Ah well..sometimes I feel...
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

31st March 2005, 10:23 AM	#7
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Well, both Led Zeppelin and Z.Z. Top have been sued for plagiarizing classic blues riffs, and even without that, I think they often capture that essential blues feel.... Chuck Berry OTOH, was famously referred to as 'that country' guitar player by a well known blues pianist... And Long John Baldry delivered the definitive treatise on the difference between 'boogie woogie' and the blues...
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

22nd February 2005, 03:18 PM	#2
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	"Da Bluz"?

31st March 2005, 09:25 AM	#6
phildonnia Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sac'to CA Posts: 2,339	It's definitely blues if it has a swing beat and a C-C-F-C-G-C chord pattern (or something similar). For example: "Your Momma Don't Dance". I would also admit ZZ Top's "La Grange" , just for the beat, even though it's a one-chord song. This doesn't mean that Avril Lavigne's "Complicated" gets in though. "Johnny B. Goode", and "Been a long time" are blues, just based on the chord pattern, even though they have a rock-n-roll beat.

31st March 2005, 11:12 AM	#8
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,091	Quote: Originally posted by crimresearch Good point...people do seem to rely on labels... I guess what I have a problem with, is that Johhny Winter sounds nothing like John Lee Hooker, and B.B. King sounds very different from Muddy Waters...so at some point, the best blues artists had to quit being faithful to 'sounds like' and do their own thing..which we now pretty much agree is 'real blues' too. So there is an intangible 'blues feel' that is hard to pin down..but after an artist fights the labelling concept long enough, suddenly in retrospect, people realize that had 'it'. I agree that "what blues is" is extremely hard to pin down, but I know it when I hear it. There's also a big overlap between blues, gospel and soul, which are often based around the same musical ideas and techniques - sometimes even by the same artists. How would you define the music of Blind Willie Johnson, for example? It's "obviously" gospel, but change the subject matter and... Quote: Chris Thomas King spent his whole career rejecting the 'blues stereotype' and insisting that he was a rocker or singer songwriter, or whatever... and then I turn on the TV and he is on a blues documentary saying 'we' and 'paid my blues dues' like everyone else. Is this perhaps more to do with the current (comparative) high profile of blues (and in particular "authentic" blues, for want of a better term) as a genre? I remember a magazine interview from the early 80s, when blues didn't exactly have a high profile, with a British blues-rock guitarist who when asked about American blues musicians said something along the lines of "who wants to listen to some poor old guy sitting on a porch playing out of tune" (I can't remember the exact phrase, but the words "old guy," "out of tune" and "porch" were definitely in there). More recently, of course, he has "rediscovered his roots."
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

31st March 2005, 11:26 AM	#9
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,091	Quote: Originally posted by phildonnia It's definitely blues if it has a swing beat and a C-C-F-C-G-C chord pattern (or something similar). This is what a friend of mine, who is an octogenarian former jazz and big band saxophonist and arranger, would describe as a blues. It's not the same thing as The Blues. In fact, he insists that only the 12-bar pattern constitutes "a blues." If a tune is an eight bar blues, like Key to the Highway, for example, he wouldn't describe it as such.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

31st March 2005, 01:55 PM	#10
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sheffield Posts: 8,247	Quote: Originally posted by shecky "Da Bluz"? Pillory's pronunciation of Das Boot.
	__________________ Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke