Slightly flawed protocol used in LAT of voting computers

Kevin_Lowe · 24th February 2005, 11:58 PM

From Black Box Voting (.org):

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/mess...tml?1109016869

Quote:

Friday, Feb. 19 2005:

Black Box Voting investigators Bev Harris and Kathleen Wynne attended and videotapted a Logic & Accuracy test at Broward County.

1. About 120 ES&S touch-screens were set up for voting. All were positioned so that not a single observer could see the screens (even with binoculars and a zoom lens).

2. Several computers were in an adjacent central tabulator room. None of the central tabulators used were positioned so that any observer could see any part of the screen.

The article as a whole is a hoot and well worth a click.

I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should). However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy.

RandFan · 25th February 2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should).

"Damn well should"? Please contact your congressperson. What's that? You don't live in America?

I love that you are so concerned with our elections.

Quote:

However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy.

Non Sequitur.

Kevin_Lowe · 25th February 2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandFan
"Damn well should"? Please contact your congressperson. What's that? You don't live in America?

I love that you are so concerned with our elections.

Non Sequitur.

Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.

corplinx · 25th February 2005, 10:58 AM

For those who don't know, we exposed Bev Harris and her ilk as the woos they are back during the election. Kevin seems unhealthily enamored with their org for some reason.

corplinx · 25th February 2005, 11:35 AM

Let me go ahead and predict the response to my previous thread. It will be something along the lines of "just because Bev is a woo and probably a leech doesn't mean the article is innacurate, are you concerned about fair elections? blah blah blah".

There are about 10 news orgs/agencies I have on my blacklist since I consider their right or left wing bias so strong it affects their news (sorry BPSCG, wash times is not a reliable source). Given that I won't pay attention to outright biased and innaccurate news, why would I heed Bev Harris?

That's like paying heed to Richard Hoagland on the subject of cosmology.

Random · 25th February 2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Let me go ahead and predict the response to my previous thread. It will be something along the lines of "just because Bev is a woo and probably a leech doesn't mean the article is innacurate, are you concerned about fair elections? blah blah blah".

Absolutely. This is the rule of thumb that I use. Once one person with a certain belief turns out to be unreliable, we know that the belief is wrong and can therefore be ignored entirely. Beverly Harris is a woo, so therefore electronic voting has no problems whatsoever. Jeff Gannon was a male prostitute, therefore homosexual marriage is OK. Ronald Reagan had Alzheimerâ€™s, therefore the Soviet Union never had nukes. Bush was a drinker, therefore there were no WMDs in Iraq.

Wait a minute, I think Iâ€™ve been derailed by my own sarcasmâ€¦

corplinx · 25th February 2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Random
Once one person with a certain belief turns out to be unreliable, we know that the belief is wrong and can therefore be ignored entirely. Beverly Harris is a woo, so therefore electronic voting has no problems whatsoever.

You couldn't have made better prediction of the sort of strawman he will come back at me with. Now that you've already his lampooned his most likely response though, what will he come back with?

Kevin_Lowe · 25th February 2005, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
You couldn't have made better prediction of the sort of strawman he will come back at me with. Now that you've already his lampooned his most likely response though, what will he come back with?

I could refer people to the last time you brought this up, because exactly the same response applies.

Or I could ask you and Randfan to go and start your own "Is there any reason non-USians should be interested in US elections, and by the way isn't Bev Harris just totally insane?" thread.

Or I could ask you what you think about the events of the article I linked to. Which could (just barely conceivably) be more interesting.

So, corplinx. What you think about the events described in the article I linked to?

RandFan · 25th February 2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
What you think about the events described in the article I linked to?

I think the article is a cause for concern but nothing worth getting up in arms about. I also I think your response to the article is hyperbole and your conclusion does not follow from the article.

Frank Newgent · 25th February 2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Random

Bush was a drinker, therefore there were no WMDs in Iraq.

Can we formalize that?

Dubya-M-D (noun)

1. Idiomatic expression in the language of messianic nationalism: History might forgive the Coalition invasion of Iraq, even if no link is proven between terrorism and Dubya-M-D.

2. Ready-made stat, prevarication or pick-up line made handy through its specific use or ironic misuse in the expression of a metaphysical principle: I am certain that the distinct chemical, biological and nuclear mental forms or entities that are the manifestations, actualizations and objectivizations of fissionable ectoplasmatic Dubya-M-D must be somewhere around here.

3. New comedy/drama pilot starring former president George W. Bush as a zany neurosyphilitic psychiatrist self administering heroic doses of a powerful antipsychotic drug.

corplinx · 25th February 2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe

So, corplinx. What you think about the events described in the article I linked to?

Didn't read it, not worth my time. Not worth yours either. Do you really trust some kooks who believe in a great media conspiracy to suppress the truth about the US elections to give an accurate report about this stuff?

Why don't I go read what Richard Hoagland's observations about the mars lander stuff while I am wasting my goddamn time?

Kevin_Lowe · 25th February 2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandFan
I think the article is a cause for concern but nothing worth getting up in arms about. I also I think your response to the article is hyperbole and your conclusion does not follow from the article.

Are you aware you just supported my conclusion?

The Central Scrutinizer · 25th February 2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
From Black Box Voting (.org):

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/mess...tml?1109016869

The article as a whole is a hoot and well worth a click.

I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should). However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy.

Bev Harris, confirmed liar, also witnessed black helicopters circling the area.

24th February 2005, 11:58 PM	#1
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	Slightly flawed protocol used in LAT of voting computers From Black Box Voting (.org): http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/mess...tml?1109016869 Quote: Friday, Feb. 19 2005: Black Box Voting investigators Bev Harris and Kathleen Wynne attended and videotapted a Logic & Accuracy test at Broward County. 1. About 120 ES&S touch-screens were set up for voting. All were positioned so that not a single observer could see the screens (even with binoculars and a zoom lens). 2. Several computers were in an adjacent central tabulator room. None of the central tabulators used were positioned so that any observer could see any part of the screen. The article as a whole is a hoot and well worth a click. I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should). However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy.

25th February 2005, 03:26 AM	#2
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,373	Re: Slightly flawed protocol used in LAT of voting computers Quote: Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should). "Damn well should"? Please contact your congressperson. What's that? You don't live in America? I love that you are so concerned with our elections. Quote: However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy. Non Sequitur.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

25th February 2005, 04:07 AM	#3
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	Re: Re: Slightly flawed protocol used in LAT of voting computers Quote: Originally posted by RandFan "Damn well should"? Please contact your congressperson. What's that? You don't live in America? I love that you are so concerned with our elections. Non Sequitur. Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.

25th February 2005, 10:58 AM	#4
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	For those who don't know, we exposed Bev Harris and her ilk as the woos they are back during the election. Kevin seems unhealthily enamored with their org for some reason.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

25th February 2005, 11:35 AM	#5
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Let me go ahead and predict the response to my previous thread. It will be something along the lines of "just because Bev is a woo and probably a leech doesn't mean the article is innacurate, are you concerned about fair elections? blah blah blah". There are about 10 news orgs/agencies I have on my blacklist since I consider their right or left wing bias so strong it affects their news (sorry BPSCG, wash times is not a reliable source). Given that I won't pay attention to outright biased and innaccurate news, why would I heed Bev Harris? That's like paying heed to Richard Hoagland on the subject of cosmology.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

25th February 2005, 12:20 PM	#6
Random Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,464	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx Let me go ahead and predict the response to my previous thread. It will be something along the lines of "just because Bev is a woo and probably a leech doesn't mean the article is innacurate, are you concerned about fair elections? blah blah blah". Absolutely. This is the rule of thumb that I use. Once one person with a certain belief turns out to be unreliable, we know that the belief is wrong and can therefore be ignored entirely. Beverly Harris is a woo, so therefore electronic voting has no problems whatsoever. Jeff Gannon was a male prostitute, therefore homosexual marriage is OK. Ronald Reagan had Alzheimerâ€™s, therefore the Soviet Union never had nukes. Bush was a drinker, therefore there were no WMDs in Iraq. Wait a minute, I think Iâ€™ve been derailed by my own sarcasmâ€¦
	__________________ ...So, the next time you find yourself desperately Googling for some factual example that proves your argument is right, and failing to find even one, stop. See if you can put the brakes on and actually say, out loud, "Wait a second. If the things I'm saying in order to bolster my argument are consistently wrong, then maybe my argument is also wrong." -Cracked

25th February 2005, 12:24 PM	#7
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by Random Once one person with a certain belief turns out to be unreliable, we know that the belief is wrong and can therefore be ignored entirely. Beverly Harris is a woo, so therefore electronic voting has no problems whatsoever. You couldn't have made better prediction of the sort of strawman he will come back at me with. Now that you've already his lampooned his most likely response though, what will he come back with?
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

25th February 2005, 06:05 PM	#8
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx You couldn't have made better prediction of the sort of strawman he will come back at me with. Now that you've already his lampooned his most likely response though, what will he come back with? I could refer people to the last time you brought this up, because exactly the same response applies. Or I could ask you and Randfan to go and start your own "Is there any reason non-USians should be interested in US elections, and by the way isn't Bev Harris just totally insane?" thread. Or I could ask you what you think about the events of the article I linked to. Which could (just barely conceivably) be more interesting. So, corplinx. What you think about the events described in the article I linked to?

25th February 2005, 06:31 PM	#9
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,373	Quote: Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe What you think about the events described in the article I linked to? I think the article is a cause for concern but nothing worth getting up in arms about. I also I think your response to the article is hyperbole and your conclusion does not follow from the article.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

25th February 2005, 07:54 PM	#10
Frank Newgent Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 4,686	Quote: Originally posted by Random Bush was a drinker, therefore there were no WMDs in Iraq. Can we formalize that? Dubya-M-D (noun) 1. Idiomatic expression in the language of messianic nationalism: History might forgive the Coalition invasion of Iraq, even if no link is proven between terrorism and Dubya-M-D. 2. Ready-made stat, prevarication or pick-up line made handy through its specific use or ironic misuse in the expression of a metaphysical principle: I am certain that the distinct chemical, biological and nuclear mental forms or entities that are the manifestations, actualizations and objectivizations of fissionable ectoplasmatic Dubya-M-D must be somewhere around here. 3. New comedy/drama pilot starring former president George W. Bush as a zany neurosyphilitic psychiatrist self administering heroic doses of a powerful antipsychotic drug.
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

25th February 2005, 08:00 PM	#11
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe So, corplinx. What you think about the events described in the article I linked to? Didn't read it, not worth my time. Not worth yours either. Do you really trust some kooks who believe in a great media conspiracy to suppress the truth about the US elections to give an accurate report about this stuff? Why don't I go read what Richard Hoagland's observations about the mars lander stuff while I am wasting my goddamn time?
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	__________________ In the tradition of "Stop Silvia!" Stop Hal Bidlack: http://skepticalcommunity.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=28671

25th February 2005, 10:28 PM	#12
Kevin_Lowe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Queensland Posts: 10,284	Quote: Originally posted by RandFan I think the article is a cause for concern but nothing worth getting up in arms about. I also I think your response to the article is hyperbole and your conclusion does not follow from the article. Are you aware you just supported my conclusion?

25th February 2005, 11:10 PM	#13
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,278	Re: Slightly flawed protocol used in LAT of voting computers Quote: Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe From Black Box Voting (.org): http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/mess...tml?1109016869 The article as a whole is a hoot and well worth a click. I think it's much more likely that the "test" was arranged in this fashion because ES&S' computers are bug-ridden and unreliable than because they were trying to cover up genuinely criminal election rigging. (Although as always the problem is that we don't know this, and we damn well should). However, incidents like this render increasingly hilarious the claim that the USA has a robust and healthy tradition of open democracy. Bev Harris, confirmed liar, also witnessed black helicopters circling the area.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.