US forces in an assassination attempt on communist journalist

[Elind]

Journalist Calls Shots Unjustified
Wounded Italian's Account Differs From That of U.S.

"Don't believe a word of the U.S. version," said Oliviero Diliberto, secretary of the Italian Communist party. "There's an attempt to mask what actually happened. The Americans deliberately fired on the Italians."

Here we go again. The gods are screwing with us all as usual.

[aerocontrols]

Why did these assassins leave anyone alive, I wonder?

[Ace_of_Sevens]

I'm not sure which is more disappointing. That my government is trying to assassinate journalists or that they don't seem to be very good at it.

[shuize]

As I pointed in another thread, perhaps others in Iraq will learn from this that, like playing dead, it is not such a good idea to speed into military checkpoints and ignore all orders to stop.

[a_unique_person]

Are you sure about that?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Iraq/U...044235362.html

Quote:

The Italian journalist who was wounded by American troops at a checkpoint in Baghdad shortly after she was released by her Iraqi captors denied US allegations the car she was in was speeding.

Giuliana Sgrena gave her first account yesterday of the incident in which she was wounded and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed.

The shooting has fuelled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to the war in Iraq.

''We thought the danger was over after my rescue,'' Sgrena told Rai News 24 television by telephone.

''And instead suddenly there was this shooting, we were hit by a spray of fire. I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing.''

Her boyfriend, Pier Scolari, said she told him that the car had not been speeding.

Sgrena subsequently told interviewers the car was traveling at ''regular speed''.

The US military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the car to stop.

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AdvertisementBut in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said ''there was no bright light, no signal, and at a certain point, from one side, a firestorm erupted''.

[demon]

Well, if there wasn't a check-point, which was also alleged, then the speed of the vehicle would be irrelevant. The whole point being made by way of automatic exculpation on the part of the Pentagon is that if the car was speeding toward a check-point, well, it could have been a suicide bomber. That would, if the guess were right, make it a matter of saving lives.

But if not one but two witnesses present say that, and one of them happens to be an award-winning journalist with a medal pinned on her by Berlusconi, and the other is an Italian intelligence officer, then I am inclined to trust them rather than the Pentagon. But there's an investigation afoot, so we shall see.

[username]

Quote:

Originally posted by shuize
As I pointed in another thread, perhaps others in Iraq will learn from this that, like playing dead, it is not such a good idea to speed into military checkpoints and ignore all orders to stop.

While I would agree that speeding through a checkpoint would be a justifiable reason to open fire, what evidence do you have that they did speed through a checkpoint?

The facts are still coming in, but the articles I have read so far say they had already gone through all checkpoints enroute to the airport.

[Elind]

Quote:

Originally posted by demon
Well, if there wasn't a check-point, which was also alleged, then the speed of the vehicle would be irrelevant. The whole point being made by way of automatic exculpation on the part of the Pentagon is that if the car was speeding toward a check-point, well, it could have been a suicide bomber. That would, if the guess were right, make it a matter of saving lives.

But if not one but two witnesses present say that, and one of them happens to be an award-winning journalist with a medal pinned on her by Berlusconi, and the other is an Italian intelligence officer, then I am inclined to trust them rather than the Pentagon. But there's an investigation afoot, so we shall see.

But if it had been a CIA intelligence officer you would have a different opinion?

If the intent had been to kill them, they would all be dead. As to other details; sh*t happens in war and we will no doubt hear more.

[Ziggurat]

The "speeding" part is irrelevent. What matters is whether or not they were given signal to stop and did not. And for that, the driver is really who you want to hear from, not the passenger.

[ceo_esq]

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
But if it had been a CIA intelligence officer you would have a different opinion?

Indeed. And what credibility, a priori, would demon accord to the testimony of (for example) decorated American servicemen?

[Ziggurat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Sevens
I'm not sure which is more disappointing. That my government is trying to assassinate journalists or that they don't seem to be very good at it.

Let's play with another conspiracy theory: if we are to believe this journalist, the insurgents warned her that the Americans didn't want her to return. What if it was a setup, what if they used an informant to "warn" the Americans about a suicide bomber, with the express purpose of having the Americans attack her? That would be a VERY effective PR blow against the Americans and do much more damage to US-Italian alliance than killing a hostage. All the better for them then that she survived to tell about it: they've won an ally in the press, but still got their dead Italian.

Edit to add: Oh, and that's not even counting the possible payment of ransom. If the Italians paid a ransom, that's an even bigger transgression against both the US and especially Iraq than our shooting, because a million dollars (the reported amount) in the hands of the terrorists will lead to a lot more than one dead innocent. That should be getting a LOT more press coverage, but then, maybe the press doesn't care.

[easycruise]

From the AP newswire...

""Giuliana Sgrena, who writes for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto, described how she was wounded and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed as she was celebrating her freedom on the way to the airport.""

If they were celebrating in the car, it is more than likely that they were oblivious to most of what was happening outside of the car.

On another note, I'm surprised that the Communist party actually has a newspaper in Italy. You mean there are still are advocates of communism in a democracy? Wow! A mountain of evidence of a failed system and there are still people who believe. Sounds like a project for James Randi!

[Elind]

Quote:

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Indeed. And what credibility, a priori, would demon accord to the testimony of (for example) decorated American servicemen?

About as much as the journalist in question. She was there to dig dirt on the US, nothing more, and she was most likely released because she truthfully pleaded support for the insurgents.

[materia3]

There are now three threads on this story: the other two are
at:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...post1870806187

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=53539

With other theories beside the allegedly apparent one.

[Elind]

Quote:

Originally posted by materia3
There are now three threads on this story: the other two are
at:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...post1870806187

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=53539

With other theories beside the allegedly apparent one.

We should merge them then, as they were all started at roughly the same time.

[TragicMonkey]

She's taking seriously the suggestion put to her by her captors, who kidnapped her, that their enemies want to do her harm?

What would be the point of deliberately killing her after the ransom was paid, anyway?

And what is "regular speed" for a travelling car, to an Italian?

[kalen]

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey

And what is "regular speed" for a travelling car, to an Italian?

Europeans do drive on the fast side. But whatever happened to the practice of giving someone a ticket if they were driving too fast?

Seriously, though, I think this is less of an assassination conspiracy and more of a "shoot anything that moves" policy. Because, we all know, if it's moving, it's a potential threat that must be neutralized. Remember the wounded Iraqi in the mosque that ended up getting shot in the face? Apparently he moved - which was quite enough justification for killing him because no charges will be laid in that incident. Whole families of Iraqis have been wiped out because they were in moving cars. The list goes on.

[IIRichard]

I'm frankly surprised that anyone survived. My son served in Iraq and at least once manned a check point. A car tried to run the checkpoint or was unable to stop or whatever. The Marines couldn't tell how many people were in the car when the shooting was over.

The one shot through the windshield is only in the movies folks.

This lady was damn lucky.

[corplinx]

This assassination woo is funny. The cool thing is it gets people on the forum you always suspected of being woos to out themselves.

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
This assassination woo is funny. The cool thing is it gets people on the forum you always suspected of being woos to out themselves.

I think this is highly likely the result of incompetence rather than an assasination.....however I would be interested in your take on why an assasination is an impossibility...is it because Americans would be incapable of it?

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
This assassination woo is funny. The cool thing is it gets people on the forum you always suspected of being woos to out themselves.

If you are referring to me, I never calimed it was an assasination attempt, I did link to evidence that disputes the US version of what actually happened at the 'checkpoint'.

[corplinx]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
I think this is highly likely the result of incompetence rather than an assasination.....however I would be interested in your take on why an assasination is an impossibility...is it because Americans would be incapable of it?

I just fall on the side of occams razor. US Troops are under orders to light up cars speeding towards checkpoints since cars have been used to ram and bomb checkpoints. This is standard operating procedure.

Here is the alternative:
The Italian President calls Bush on the phone:
"George, please kill this commie for me"
"I sure will Burt"

Bush calls Rummy:
"Rummy, its time for you to pay me back for not firing your ass"
"I've been ordering troops to kill commies since before you stopped snorting coke George, dont worry"

Rummy then has people filter down through the chain of command skipping as many people as necessary until he gets the grunts manning the checkpoints.
"When the eye-talians pay the ransom, if they come through your checkpoint, light them up"
"But sir, arent these people white?"
"Private, they are italians"
"Oh, okay then"
"Now inform everyone who will be manning that checkpoint on any shift during those few days to kill anyone that looks greasy"
"Sir Yes Sir"

Now, I don't dimiss this as a possibility at all...... I just dismiss it out of hand since US Troops have opened fire at will on cars approaching checkpoints before and its the most mundane explanation short of some real otherwise to cast doubts otherwise.

You know, this is skepticism 101 fool.....

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
I think this is highly likely the result of incompetence rather than an assasination.....however I would be interested in your take on why an assasination is an impossibility...is it because Americans would be incapable of it?

Because there is no point in assassinating her?

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

You know, this is skepticism 101 fool.....

Occams razor is a good tool for judging what is the most probable.... Once again you resort to branding something as "woo" not because it is contrary to the laws of physics but simply because of your opinion that it is the least likely explanation.....

I notice you have accepted without question that this happened at a checkpoint and the car was speeding and that the car ignored many obvious requests to stop. Is that skepticism 101 too?

[TillEulenspiegel]

Well Fool I wouldn't say incompetence. The rules ( and their strictly enforced as any can be ) are , hand signals, light signals, warning shots and finally shoot to stop. The rules have changed because a speeding car could be a car bomb, made to kill the soldiers at the check point.

Another point is the reporter claims that there was no check point and a tank just opened fire without warning I find that much harder to believe especially that the troops involved and the pentagon admitted "guilt" for the incident.

Another question in the back of my mind is , would a reporter who worked for IL Manifesto The communist daily who's main target for decades has been the imperial United States, Be trusted to be objective?

[Skeptic]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
I think this is highly likely the result of incompetence rather than an assasination.....however I would be interested in your take on why an assasination is an impossibility...is it because Americans would be incapable of it?

There's little point to discussing whether something could or could not theoretically happen when there isn't the slightest credible evidence that it occured, and by far the most reasonable explanation points in the oposite direction.

By the way, I heard there was a murder in Australia over the weekened. I think this is highly likely it was the work of someone other than than the person posting on the JREF forum as "the Fool". However I would be interested in your take on why "the Fool" could not have committed the murder. Do you think he is incapable of it? Let's discuss.

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
Well Fool I wouldn't say incompetence. The rules ( and their strictly enforced as any can be ) are , hand signals, light signals, warning shots and finally shoot to stop. The rules have changed because a speeding car could be a car bomb, made to kill the soldiers at the check point.

As this was not a car bomb why didn't it stop for the hand signals, light signals, warning shots? Either they were not done by the checkpoint, or the driver ignored them....either way its incompetence...or lying to cover your arse by one or both parties involved....

Another point is the reporter claims that there was no check point and a tank just opened fire without warning I find that much harder to believe especially that the troops involved and the pentagon admitted "guilt" for the incident.

Another question in the back of my mind is , would a reporter who worked for IL Manifesto The communist daily who's main target for decades has been the imperial United States, Be trusted to be objective?
would you trust the US army to be objective? Would you trust as objective all the posters here that snap to attention and salute when they read what is claimed to be the US army version of events then parrot these as facts?

Us toops shot Italian Journalists....its a cockup. Lets see what happens out of the investigation....What I was doing was pointing out to some people the folly of describing anyone who does not choose to accept the US army explanation as "woo".

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
There's little point to discussing whether something could or could not theoretically happen when there isn't the slightest credible evidence that it occured, and by far the most reasonable explanation points in the oposite direction.

By the way, I heard there was a murder in Australia over the weekened. I think this is highly likely it was the work of someone other than than the person posting on the JREF forum as "the Fool". However I would be interested in your take on why "the Fool" could not have committed the murder. Do you think he is incapable of it? Let's discuss.

yep...witness statements from Italian journalists is not credible evidence and statements from the US army are. They say there was no checkpoint but as the US army says there was this is now a fact....there was a checkpoint. The Italian Journalists say there was no hand signals but as the US army says there was handsignals this is now a fact...there was handsignals. The people in the car say there was no warning shots but as the US army says there was warning shots this is now a fact...there was warning shots.

Now that we have all the facts there is only one logical conclusion....That conclusion is that you have been told what to believe and you do what you are told.

And as for your analogy.. Do you think I am incapable of murder?

[Ace_of_Sevens]

I doubt the assassination primarly because the US had no real reason to kill her, then there's the question of how they would have known who was in the car in the first place. Someone involved in the trade would have had to tip them off, which seems even less likely.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Sevens
I doubt the assassination primarly because the US had no real reason to kill her, then there's the question of how they would have known who was in the car in the first place. Someone involved in the trade would have had to tip them off, which seems even less likely.

The Italians had already told the US they would be coming, and had already passed through checkpoints on the way to the airport.

[materia3]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_of_Sevens
I doubt the assassination primarly because the US had no real reason to kill her, then there's the question of how they would have known who was in the car in the first place. Someone involved in the trade would have had to tip them off, which seems even less likely.

Exactly. Very likely. Like the terrorists themselves, tipping the U.S. contacts off to a car bomb run which, in effect, set them up and then getting the blame placed on the Americans. Within literal moments of the attack, Al Jazeera was selling a photo of the dead Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, to the world's press. The event took place at 2:43 PM EST U.S. By 7:30 PM the NY Times was on the street in Manhattan and had placed the Al Jazeera sourced photo in its story. Nobody seems bothered by this and nobody has asked the arab news agency how it got this photo and then so quickly. I find it hard to believe secret service agents of any government willy nilly allow themselves to be photographed.

The terrorists negotiating with Calipari are the most likely source of the picture, probably captured on a cel phone camera as the terrorists stood outside the car he was in earlier in the day setting up the trade.

I happen to agree with the concept that the U.S. had no reason to target this woman, and even if they did, could've have found many ways to kill her which would not implicate them in any way whatsoever. The predictable political fall out alone from this would be enough to insure her safe passage by American forces rather than her assasination. It was either a SNAFU of major proportion or it was a set up engineered by the terrorists which has suited their purpose: embarass the U.S. and initiate a popular move in Italy for a highly symbolic withdrawal of its troops.

So they win again, but this time using a more devious plan than merely kidnapping foreign nationals and making demands for their withdrawal in exchange for their release ... which, er doesn't work too well as we all know.

[gnome]

Had the intent been assassination, I see no reason why there were survivors. Why stop shooting, and leave witnesses?

I am willing to believe that the "official" version exaggerates the innocence of the shooters, but I would want to learn the results of investigation before drawing a conclusion. Certainly you can't make up your mind from stories floating around before anyone does any actual investigating!

[TillEulenspiegel]

Fool I must have misread . The apperence of your statement seems to be aimed at the troops and as You have explained , Yes I guess we coudld concider this a foul-up.

Fool:"would you trust the US army to be objective? "

no.

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
Fool I must have misread . The apperence of your statement seems to be aimed at the troops and as You have explained , Yes I guess we coudld concider this a foul-up.

Fool:"would you trust the US army to be objective? "

no.

sorry, when I said incompetence was a likely cause I was including the occupants of the car as well as the troops on the ground...reading it again I agree that is not clear.

[Skeptic]

yep...witness statements from Italian journalists is not credible evidence and statements from the US army are. They say there was no checkpoint but as the US army says there was...

...and there are two possible explanations for the discrepancy:

1). The US army, for no reason whatsoever, decided to assassinate an Italian journalist just freed in Iraq. For this purpose, they have been tipped off by, or secretly found out about, the kidnapping Jihadists about the time of release of the hostages, and (with psychic power) knew exactly what route they will drive away and in what vehicle. They then set up an ambush. Alas, for all this evil plannings, the assassination attempt itself was a dismal failure: after firing a few inaccurate shots with light weaponry in the journalists' general direction, presumably on the assumption that bringing a tank or two (or a grenade launcher) to the ambush to get the job done right would be just too much trouble, the would-be assassins conceded failure and just let the pair drive away to tell the tale of their harrowing escape.

...or...

2). The released hostages, undestandably euphoric and celebrating their release, simply failed to notice the roadblock, an event that happened before on quite a few occassions.

Since there are the two possibilities, and (2) is so much more likely than (1), and (1) is absurd on its face in any case, it is--for all intents and purposes--practically certain that (2) (or something similar) was the case. Ergo, it is practically certain that there was a roadblock.

One would have to be a total military and political ignoramous with an axe to grind against the USA to take seriously claim (1). Oh wait, "The Fool", I forgot: you ARE a totaly military and political ignoramous with an axe to grind againt the USA. Which explains your sudden "skepticism" about (2) being the case, prefering (1), which--while absurd--makes the US look bad.

And as for your analogy.. Do you think I am incapable of murder?

Well, I was asking the question rhetorically, of course, but since you asked--yes, I'm quite sure you're incapable of murder. Too much of a coward, too comfortable of a life. You just cheer murderers and would-be murderers from the sidelines.

[a_unique_person]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
yep...witness statements from Italian journalists is not credible evidence and statements from the US army are. They say there was no checkpoint but as the US army says there was...

...and there are two possible explanations for the discrepancy:

1). The US army, for no reason whatsoever, decided to assassinate an Italian journalist just freed in Iraq. For this purpose, they have been tipped off by, or secretly found out about, the kidnapping Jihadists about the time of release of the hostages, and (with psychic power) knew exactly what route they will drive away and in what vehicle. They then set up an ambush. Alas, for all this evil plannings, the assassination attempt itself was a dismal failure: after firing a few inaccurate shots with light weaponry in the journalists' general direction, presumably on the assumption that bringing a tank or two (or a grenade launcher) to the ambush to get the job done right would be just too much trouble, the would-be assassins conceded failure and just let the pair drive away to tell the tale of their harrowing escape.

...or...

2). The released hostages, undestandably euphoric and celebrating their release, simply failed to notice the roadblock, an event that happened before on quite a few occassions.

Since there are the two possibilities, and (2) is so much more likely than (1), and (1) is absurd on its face in any case, it is--for all intents and purposes--practically certain that (2) (or something similar) was the case. Ergo, it is practically certain that there was a roadblock.

One would have to be a total military and political ignoramous with an axe to grind against the USA to take seriously claim (1). Oh wait, "The Fool", I forgot: you ARE a totaly military and political ignoramous with an axe to grind againt the USA. Which explains your sudden "skepticism" about (2) being the case, prefering (1), which--while absurd--makes the US look bad.

And as for your analogy.. Do you think I am incapable of murder?

Well, I was asking the question rhetorically, of course, but since you asked--yes, I'm quite sure you're incapable of murder. Too much of a coward, too comfortable of a life. You just cheer murderers and would-be murderers from the sidelines.

Time to take another reality check. Fool has been in Vietnam, as a member of the Australian armed forces, as a foot soldier, IIRC. You really do make this up as you go along, don't you.

[Elind]

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
She's taking seriously the suggestion put to her by her captors, who kidnapped her, that their enemies want to do her harm?

What would be the point of deliberately killing her after the ransom was paid, anyway?

And what is "regular speed" for a travelling car, to an Italian?

Hey, if we are gonna get on a conspiracy roll here; she went looking for her "friends" to write nice things about.

It wouldn't take a genius to arrange a little bit of an attention getting kidnapping. After all a Lebanese/US soldier did it last year, and got away with it a lot more crudely.

[Elind]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Time to take another reality check. Fool has been in Vietnam, as a member of the Australian armed forces, as a foot soldier, IIRC. You really do make this up as you go along, don't you.

AUP.....Do you have to compose your evasions, or do they just come to you naturally, like a gift?

Personal sniping aside, Skeptic laid out a very rational commonsense senario comparison and it seems most likely that that commie b*tch is milking this for whatever her pitiful ass is worth. Her 15 minutes of fame as it were.

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic


...and there are two possible explanations for the discrepancy:


There are a lot more than two skeppers.....but two is all that your binary good/evil brain can handle ....how about american troops stuffed up? How about they shot up a car they should not have and manufactured the story that it was running a checkpoint to cover thier arses? How dear...thats completely implausable isn't it.


Well, I was asking the question rhetorically, of course, but since you asked--yes, I'm quite sure you're incapable of murder. Too much of a coward, too comfortable of a life. You just cheer murderers and would-be murderers from the sidelines.



I Know you desperately want to turn this into your usual false dichotomy either it is a completely implausable conspiracy theory of assasination and high intrigue....or its whatever the US army tells you to think ...What will you do if the investigation finds there was no checkpoint, no hand signals, no warning shots..........what then skeppers? will your brain explode because its forced to accept the impossible? That this may be simply yet another case of trigger happy troops?


I'm getting a little tired of you popping up in every thread like my pet poodle, begging for attention....you can go back on ignore with Mycroft, my other serial pest.

[The Fool]

Quote:

Originally posted by Elind
AUP.....Do you have to compose your evasions, or do they just come to you naturally, like a gift?

Personal sniping aside, Skeptic laid out a very rational commonsense senario comparison
a false dichotomy...are you also incapable of seeing any other than 2 possibilities, the US army story or the wildest most improbable alternative he can think of?




and it seems most likely that that commie b*tch is milking this for whatever her pitiful ass is worth. Her 15 minutes of fame as it were.
I bet she even arranged to be kidnapped.....probably blows Osama on the weekends. I just cannot understand people who get upset about something as trivial as being shot...sheesh.