Audio Critic

[alfaniner]

As an aside, I apologize to the Forum members for getting the "BS!" ball rolling. Even before the start of page 24, I notified Darat that in all fairness, my strongly worded post on the previous page should be edited for Rule 8 (since it was too late to do it on my own after I slept if off...) even though no one had reported it as far as I know. And he did, thank you.

However, it did seem to prod Wellfed into actually doing something, as ineffective and inconclusive as his non-double-blind self test was.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wellfed
They keep trying to attack my credibility and defend a liar, what the heck would you do in a situation like that?

Well, if I were as certain about the GSIC's powers as you claim to be, I would not be throwing all kinds of extraneous requirements into the testing protocol, such as having to be able to see the CD player (what, you mean a blind person wouldn't be able to hear the GSIC's effect?). And if I were as certain about the GSIC's powerformance as you claim to be, I wouldn't be troubled by JREF's demands.

JREF: "We're going to videotape the proceedings."
WF: "Fine, whatever you want. The thing works, what do I care?"
JREF: "You won't be allowed to handle the CD's"
WF: "Fine, whatever you want. The thing works, what do I care?"
JREF: "You have to buy pizza for all the test participants. No anchovies."
WF: "Fine, whatever you want..."

Quote:

Crash your hypothesis against the brick wall. You seem sure that it would survive such a test; so why not do it?

Quote:

I will presumably do so when I get the inclination.

Fine, whatever. As I said, the brick wall test is for your benefit. You wouldn't be the first person to find himself saying, "Hmmm... maybe I was wrong..."

Quote:

I am persuaded because I hear the difference, not just think I hear the difference.

No possibility of self-deception? Okay, if you say so.

Quote:

Boy, one would think that I am just the kind of guy you folks would love to see tested. Let's see if we can make this happen.

No, the kind of guy we'd like to see tested is someone who makes his challenge March 31 and after a few dozen emails back and forth to hammer out a leakproof protocol (or as leakproof as possible), gets tested on April 14.

Look, you're wasting your time here complaining about being rejected. You already know that nobody here is taking up your cause to reopen your challenge, so it's not like Kramer is going to bow to the will of the masses - and I doubt he would even if there were an outcry, as long as both he and his boss were satisfied that the rejection was the right choice. You wanted to have JREF bet a million bucks against your zero bucks that your GSIC didn't work, and when JREF demanded strict protocols, instead of saying, "Yeah, fine, whatever you want, let's do it, 'cuz I know the thing works," you started dancing like a cat on a red-hot stove.

Well, it's JREF's money, and if they don't like the terms of the bet, they're free to walk away, just as you would have been. Remember the Golden Rule: "Him who's got the gold, makes the rules." Suck it up and come back next year and hope that LostAngeles flunks the challenge in the meantime.

BTW, what do you think of her chances?

[edthedoc]

This is all getting so tedious.

If I thought the GSIC worked I'd get two identical CDs, treat one with the chip, put both in a box, shake it up a bit, keep my eyes closed and take one out, put it in the player and play it, then swap them, again, and again, and try to work out which is which.

If I could work out which disk was which, I'd then be very keen to tighten the controls into a proper trial, and then contact JREF.

A simple blinded trial like this would be so easy to do, but Wellfed ain't interested, because he doesn't dare do it.

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by edthedoc
This is all getting so tedious.

If I thought the GSIC worked I'd get two identical CDs, treat one with the chip, put both in a box, shake it up a bit, keep my eyes closed and take one out, put it in the player and play it, then swap them, again, and again, and try to work out which is which.

[LTC8K6]

The JSIC, possibly renamed by new scammers to GSIC and sold under the Golden Sound name? I don't know, but it appears to be basically identical, except it has a 20 disc model.

Quote:

JS intelligent chip
The signals in the CDs / DVDs are distorted in the course of pressing. In fact, the codes have not been lost in the pressing. Instead, the digital codes are misplaced. For example, one code should have been in position A and it is not. Then the position is blank. This causes distortion. The code has not been lost in the pressing. Instead, it has been placed in position B. This signal then turns into the background noise. The JS intelligent chip can make the protons of the material that the CD/DVD is made of produce resonance, through which the order of digital codes of the CD/DVD is resumed and the codes are rearranged to their original places. So the upgraded CD/DVD can get back all the things in the master disk. And the background noise will disappear. The upgraded disk will perform just like the master disk. / (Attached please find the operating instruction.)
Specification and model:10A 20A 30A

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/jpxl.htm

Picture of the JS Intelligent Chip.

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/photo/648169.jpg

Instructions for use.

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/sysm.htm

They also have the magic ring and the ridiculous tweeter.....

[Skeptical Greg]

Thanks for the links.. Made IE explode on me...

[IXP]

Quote:

Originally posted by LTC8K6
The JSIC, possibly renamed by new scammers to GSIC and sold under the Golden Sound name? I don't know, but it appears to be basically identical, except it has a 20 disc model.



http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/jpxl.htm

Picture of the JS Intelligent Chip.

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/photo/648169.jpg

Instructions for use.

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/sysm.htm

They also have the magic ring and the ridiculous tweeter.....

Wow! A tweeter that extends the range into the microwave region! Now you can listen to your music and heat your supper at the same time.

IXP

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by LTC8K6
The JSIC, possibly renamed by new scammers to GSIC and sold under the Golden Sound name? I don't know, but it appears to be basically identical, except it has a 20 disc model.

That's fantastic!

Quote:

Attention: The JS intelligent chip should be put back into the packing case after using, because the packing case can protect the quantum material of the JS intelligent chip - preventing them from leaking.

Quantum material? Wuzzat?

Quote:

The JS intelligent chip can make the protons of the material that the CD/DVD is made of produce resonance, through which the order of digital codes of the CD/DVD is resumed and the codes are rearranged to their original places.

It only makes the protons resonate, not the electrons or the neutrons.

That's fantastic!

[BPSCG]

Whee! This is fun!

[alfaniner]

Quote:

Originally posted by LTC8K6
JS intelligent chip
...For example, one code should have been in position A and it is not. Then the position is blank. This causes distortion. The code has not been lost in the pressing. Instead, it has been placed in position B.
...

That is, bad CD's are bad. Bad, bad, bad.
This chip is good. Good, good, good.
See the good chip. It will do good things.

[Wellfed]

Quote:

Originally posted by alfaniner
As an aside, I apologize to the Forum members for getting the "BS!" ball rolling. Even before the start of page 24, I notified Darat that in all fairness, my strongly worded post on the previous page should be edited for Rule 8 (since it was too late to do it on my own after I slept if off...) even though no one had reported it as far as I know. And he did, thank you.

However, it did seem to prod Wellfed into actually doing something, as ineffective and inconclusive as his non-double-blind self test was.

alfaniner, you were told that demanding me to do anything wasn't going to hold any sway. The only reason for me to publish my test results is to satisfy the curiosity of the gracious. Since the record is public, the ungracious obviously can view the same content.

[Hitch]

http://www.hktwo.com/jsmr/english/tjwf.htm
The JSMR Quantum waveguide tube(the Magic Ring) can be used by running the signal wires OR the power cord through the ring OR on top of the ring (either the signal wires OR the power cord) OR you can simply place the ring(s) on the floor in front of OR behind the amplifier.

Truly a remarkable device. I wonder if the offer a free shipping version where they set one up at their plant to improve the sound of your stereo without actually any need for it to be located where you are?

[Wellfed]

Quote:

Originally posted by jmercer
...

If I were you, I'd not be citing my experience as proving anything until a truly objective double-blind test is performed. You are staking your remaining crediblity on a position that is essentially based on your own subjective experiences.

Let's get JREF moving on this then. I want my subjective to become your objective. Testing by JREF is the first step. I'm willing, are they? BTW, God is real, look at a tree, or a bird, or a human being. That should tell you all you need to know about God's existence.

[Wellfed]

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
...
No, the kind of guy we'd like to see tested is someone who makes his challenge March 31 and after a few dozen emails back and forth to hammer out a leakproof protocol (or as leakproof as possible), gets tested on April 14.

Well, if this the case, clarify the rules. The Challenge FAQ suggests 1-6 months. The Challenge application allows for 12 months.

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
...

Well, it's JREF's money, and if they don't like the terms of the bet, they're free to walk away, just as you would have been. Remember the Golden Rule: "Him who's got the gold, makes the rules." Suck it up and come back next year and hope that LostAngeles flunks the challenge in the meantime.

The do seem to love their leverage, don't they. But are they really after the truth. I personally don't think so.

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG BTW, what do you think of her chances?

I think she has a chance.

[Gr8wight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wellfed
I am persuaded because I hear the difference, not just think I hear the difference. I have no need to run a DBT to make my assertion.

Michael,

You have put your finger right on the point of the matter. You are correct in stating that you have no need to run a DBT to make your assertion. However, having made your assertion, and having heard skeptical replies from those around you, the matter is at a stalemate. You have a belief. Those here do not share your belief. There are two options:

1) You say I don't care what you think, I will still believe. The story is over, and everyone goes their own way.

2) You attempt to support your claim by providing evidence that we will accept. Here we have run into the need for double blind testing.

It all depends on what you want.

[alfaniner]

In other words, DB testing talks, BS walks.

[Bronze Dog]

Quote:

Originally posted by alfaniner
In other words, DB testing talks, BS walks.

Well, isn't that a nice snippy quote. Think I might use it someday, if that's alright with you.

[jmercer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wellfed
Let's get JREF moving on this then. I want my subjective to become your objective. Testing by JREF is the first step. I'm willing, are they? BTW, God is real, look at a tree, or a bird, or a human being. That should tell you all you need to know about God's existence.

JREF is closed to you by your own actions. As I said before, pick another skeptic organization that does testing.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wellfed
Well, if this the case, clarify the rules.

Not me; I suggested to Kramer there was a problem with LA's test, and cited what I thought were the rules. He got pretty testy with me (see, it isn't just you...). I suspect you know the rules a lot better than I.

[jmercer]

BP - FYI, Wellfed just got suspended (after Darat warned him) for another violation of Rule 8, so you won't be hearing from him for a week or so.

[alfaniner]

Quote:

Originally posted by jmercer
BP - FYI, Wellfed just got suspended (after Darat warned him) for another violation of Rule 8, so you won't be hearing from him for a week or so.

Well, maybe he'll have time to do that test now...

I was about to wrap this one up, anyway.

[Sherman Bay]

Quote:

Originally posted by alfaniner
Well, maybe he'll have time to do that test now...

Maybe not. He has so much else to do.

Quote:

Originally posted by LTC8K6
The JSIC, possibly renamed by new scammers to GSIC and sold under the Golden Sound name? I don't know, but it appears to be basically identical, except it has a 20 disc model.

20? That's nuthin'. I'll give you a 200-disk model for only $99. Here, let me take your expended, wimpy 20-disc model and pass it behind my back, say the magic words...eye of newt, head of toad...here it is, revitified!

And if you don't believe me, I can get a testimonial from Wellfed. Wellfed, I'll pay you $10 for each testimonial for my $99 enhancement scheme. No one would ever doubt such an expert as you! I'll even let you test it first, as long as you don't go in for any of that stupid double-bubble-trouble stuff. We got a deal?

[KRAMER]

I just posted this in the other GSIC thread but I didn't want anyone to miss it so I've posted it here as well. Please excuse the little inconsistencies in its appearance, thanks to a weird pdf glitch.

==============================================

By Jim Austin, in his "From the Editor's Desk" in the March issue of Stereophile's e-newsletter...
available at www.stereophile.com/pastenewsletters-

John Atkinson recounts how, years ago, "erstwhile audio scribe Enid Lumlev" demonstrated her pizza-box-tripod tweak at a hi-fi show. Lurnley, JA writes, "placed the tripod atop a CD player and convinced her audience-including me-that the sound was better."

The subject of JA's newsletter column is audio tweaks in general, and specifically the recent debate over Golden Sound's socalled
Intelligent Chip. This small, plasticencased device is claimed to permanently improve the sound of CDs. Just place the chip atop your CD player, insert a CD, and press Play. "The sound of the upgraded disc more closely resembles the sound of the original master recording," reads the description on the website of distributor Machina Dynarnica, "with less congestion, more information, greater dynamic range, and more air." The change, MD says, is nearly instantaneous, and permanent.

Happy customer Patrick conroy reports (on the MD site) that Intelligent Chips are more versatile than the distributor claims: "The disc I treated this morning by placing the chip beneath the player. It worked that way too."

So how does the Intelligent Chip work? Some have implied that it has something to do with quantum dots. Aligning protons
has also been mentioned, along with "artifkid atoms" (possibly another reference to quantum dots) and the rearrangement
of "stray bytes"-unruly ones and zeros, presumably-on the typical CD. The confusion over the mechanism of action is understandable. As aphysicist with a PhD in such studies, I'm comfortable in asserting that whatever is going on here, ifit
has anything to do with chips and discs, it's beyond any science currently known.

But why limit yourself to science? Some very high-profile people believe-or seem to-that there's more to audio than mere
science. John Curl, whose Parasound JC-1 amplifier is listed in Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components," seemed
downright evangelical when he wrote, in a post on wwwAudioAsylum.com, "there is more here than any of you can understand or even accept with your limited view of
Chips for Chumps what audio reproduction is all about."

If I misunderstand his meaning-that is, if he did not intend to invoke metaphysics, mysticism, or religion4 hope he'll write in and
set me straight. Despite what Curl seems to suggest, there's no need to hlrn away from science to understand the mode of action of the Intelligent Chip. In the March 2005 "Industry Update" (p.24) I described a recent study that used functional magnetic
resonance imaging (fMRI) to map the brain activity of people drinking Coca-Cola and people drinking Pepsi. When participants knew they were drinking Coke, two things happened: their preference was affected, and parts of the brain were activated that are thought to be involved in emotional and affective influences on behavior. These areas of the brain. the researchers noted "may eamci- / Ipate in recalling cultural information that
biases preference iudgments."

There's nothing to be done; perception is inherently subjective. Whether it's taste or sound, perception has as much to do with the brain as it does with the sensory organs. There's some interesting science behind the Intelligent Chip, but it is not especially novel, and it's happening between our ears, not between the chip and the CD.

JA admits that, years ago, he was at first convinced by Enid Lumley's demonstration of the pizza-box tripod. "When she did
the test, I did hear the difference," he wrote to me in a recent e-mail correspondence.

"On my own, no difference, which I ascribed to Enid's powers of persuasion."

Not everyone is comfortable with that level of introspection. Some people would rather see angels, aliens, and forces you,
unknown to science than admit that much of the crap that goes down inside our brains is sordid, subjective, or just plain embarrassing. It's human nature, I suppose; plenty goes on inside my own head that I'd rather not share with the neighbors, though I do try to keep tabs on it myself.

Human nature or not, this phenomenon is verv good for buisiness: There's money to be made from people's openmindedness (if you want to call it that), and not just with daft tweaks and obvious snake oil like the Intelligent Chip. Even in
the realm of real devices, real components, and real effects, differences are often so subtle that you can hear them-really hear
them-only if you have a very good ear and lots of listening experience. The differences are so subtle that double-bhd testing-
the standard method for distinguishing real effects from imaginary ones-has been rejected by much of the audiophile
community as useless, except in the most obvious cases. This rejection is justifiable even statisticians agree that DBT misses
some subtle effects-but those of us who like to keep a tight grip on our wallets must mourn DBT's passing.

For 111 the absence of rigorous test procedures and a certain level of consumer cynicism snake oil flows freely. Though a sizable population of canny, critical audio consumers would undoubtedly be healthy for the industry in the long term - selfcritical, better-informed clientele would lead to more rapid value creation - in the short term it would m'ake the job of selling audio much harder. Manufacturers and resellers know this. In this resvect. the I 'hi-fi market parallels the art market:

Artists may care most about the opinions of respected insiders and knowledgeable connoisseurs, but they can hardly afford to
ignore the unsophisticated art-buying public, who buy good art for bad reasons. How much money would even talented artists make if the only people who bought their art were people who really understood it, with their good taste and deep knowledge of art? Rich, gullible people are tar easier marks.

Like many before it, the debate over the Intelligent Chip is about far more than an inexpensive tweak; it's about making. money from audio. There are real, audible differences between preamplifiers, power amplifiers, CD players, etc.- but the imaginary differences are far easier to sell.

-Jim Austin

HE2005

If you live on the East Coast, don't forget that Home Entertainment 2005 takes place April 28 through May 1, at the Manhattan Hilton (see the ad on p.129). The traditional "Editor Roast" takes place on Saturday April 30, &om 4-5pm-showgoers
are welcome to ask us questions on the "Intelligent Chip" and any other controversial subject.
-John Atkinson -
www.Stereophi/e.com, May 2005 5

[alfaniner]

Quote:

Originally posted by KRAMER
... Aligning protons
has also been mentioned, along with "artifkid atoms" (possibly another reference to quantum dots) and the rearrangement
of "stray bytes"-unruly ones and zeros, presumably-on the typical CD.

Yes, this is great. They don't realize that bits and bytes are not like little dust specks that need to be gathered together -- "Oooh! There's one!"

A simple change of a 1 to a 0 or vice versa can have major consequences.

[jmercer]

If it weren't already past the show date, I'd have gone to Manhatten and shaken Mr. Austin's hand.

[alfaniner]

Just for the record (pun possibly intended), I was just moving some stuff and came across my Discwasher and Stylus Cleaner.

Yeah, I was big on good audio a while ago. However, these things were actually effective. My vinyl albums are virtually pristine, and the recordings made from them lack any noticeable ticks or pops. Very nice when I recently recorded them to hard disk for transfer to my own CD-R's.

I think I got suckered at least once or twice though. (Never bought Monster Cables, btw.) I once got a thing that looked like a zap gun that was supposed to take the static out of the vinyl (a pre-treatment before the Discwasher). As I recall, it always seemed to either have no effect or make the static worse. It looked cool, though.

I still have some albums to convert (probably only the ones I want now that I can't get on CD). I just hope my turntable ("Total Harmonic Distortion - .005%!!!") holds out. It's about 25 years old by now, and I doubt I'll be buying another one.

[jmercer]

Quote:

Originally posted by alfaniner
I think I got suckered at least once or twice though. (Never bought Monster Cables, btw.)

I've bought Monster Cables for my DVD player, VCR, Home Theater system, etc... but not for any "sound quality" issues. I've had the "cheapie" cables that come with these things rust, break, fit poorly and pop-off at annoying times, etc.

Monster Cables are pretty well put together... and often cables (Such as L/R/Video or L/R/S-Video) are molded together into a single flat cable with split connectors on each end. Nice and easy to handle, cuts down on spaghetti, etc.

For those who are interested - there are "power conditioning" strips that are supposedly designed specifically for home theater or stereo systems. Expensive stuff - 80 bucks and up for the Monster versions. I don't use em... for 80 bucks, I bought a Belkin Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) which isolates and filters incoming power and isolates each receptacle. Pretty much power surge-and-sag proof.

If you're worried about plugs being too close together, buy one with 6 receptacles and space 'em out - or buy some cheap power strips and plug those into different receptacles on the UPS, then distribute to your heart's content.

[Blackwell]

This whole GSIC thing reminds me of something similar (but much lower-tech) from the early 90s. I was working at a CD store at the time, and the rage among (some) audiophiles was the use of a green Magic Marker to improve the sound of CDs; specifically, a mark would be made all the way around the thin edge of the CD. It had to be a green marker -- some crap about the interaction between the green ink and the red laser. Philes swore up and down that it improved sound quality; the subject was discussed at length in various magazines. Of course, there's no way in HELL this would have had any effect, but as stated already by many posters, people hear what they want to hear, and there's usually no convincing them otherwise. Eventually, the claims for the Magic Marker effect died away; however, from what I recall, there were no companies trying to capitalize on the tweak ("NEW! Hi Tech CD-Improving pens -- only $19.99!") - sadly, I don't see the GSIC dying a quick death, unless someone's able to go after the company for fraudulant claims...

...Anyway, my apologies if this has already been brought up -- I think I've read every post regarding the GSIC (B.S. I See?), but I very possibly could have missed it...

[Sherman Bay]

Randi wrote about the green marker scam here:

http://www.randi.org/jr/04-20-2001.html

Interestingly, the same column talks about a sound scam very similar to the GSIC chip using magnetic fields to supposedly alter a CD.

Quote:

...when placed atop a CD in the player would "extend bass and treble response, reduce background noise and eliminate 'mushy' sound."

"Sound" familiar?

However, you have to be careful not to dismiss any weird-sounding scheme out of hand without investigation. There really was a copy-protection scheme that could be defeated by writing on the CD with a marker (but this did not alter the sound nor claim to).

http://www.randi.org/jr/060702.html

[rwguinn]

I've got a question: If this thing works on audio CD's and on DVD's, changing them to be closer to the original sound, and since all that is on the disk are 1's and 0's, what if you put a "Windows" program disk in the CD player, then installed from that disk. (It'd probably spin for 2 seconds, just to determine it ain't audio)
Would Windoze then perform as the designer's intended, as opposed to having so many flaws?
Or would you merely feel that it worked better?
Roger

[whump!]

Please visit the following site which attacks the purveyors of similar items:

http://www.worldwidescam.com/

From the "Life Wave Patch" to the "SmogBuster MPT Disc", hucksters and victims are everywhere. The type of product that this thread is discussing is not unique. They will all eventually end up in the trash, and those who market them will either end up in jail, or on their own islands in the Caribbean out of reach of the law. Until these things are scientifically proven to be as revolutionary as claimed and the awards and accolades are heaped on the inventors, I will remain sceptical. Take a good look at the item "SmogBusted!" and view the news footage.

[jmercer]

Nine more posts and we reach 1000! Whee! First thread I've ever started that got so long... although, given what happened, I'm not so sure I wouldn't be happier if it had died quickly.

[alfaniner]

In the Challenge Application section, KRAMER says that this is the longest thread in JREF history. Is that true, or is it just in this incarnation of the Forum? (But, as well we know, it ain't over yet!)

I thought "The Carlos Swett Affair" hit something like 50+ pages.

[Bronze Dog]

I believe the Top Ten Challenge thread in the humor section is over 200 pages long, but I don't think that particularly counts.

[Rolfe]

Quote:

Originally posted by BronzeDog
I believe the Top Ten Challenge thread in the humor section is over 200 pages long, but I don't think that particularly counts.

Let TRSOTTTWND (now on 306 pages and counting) never be forgotten!

Rolfe.

[Darat]

Perhaps he meant the longest thread pertaining directly to the JREF?

[BPSCG]

The Humor/Top Ten List Challenge is coming up on 100,000 views any minute now.

[Beleth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Perhaps he meant the longest thread pertaining directly to the JREF?

Then that's what he should have said. In any case, the "Carlos Swett Affair" thread would still qualify, since it too pertained directly to the JREF.

Oh well. It's not like this is the first time the JREF has engaged in revising history.

[jmercer]

Ouch - bitter...

[Sherman Bay]

This thread would be a heckuvalot shorter, at least in screen real estate, if some people wouldn't have 7/8 of the post in their signature.

I'm just sayin'.