Have you ever been a party to pulling the plug

Ed · 25th March 2005, 01:21 PM

I don't mean being aware of it but, rather, being either the decisionmaker or part of a small group who made the decision. In other words, did your vote count?

For the record, I did.

Cleon · 25th March 2005, 01:23 PM

Me too. My grandmother, just this past year.

Ed · 25th March 2005, 01:25 PM

I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless. Makes for many postings and apperiences on Hanniety's show, but worthless.

TruthSeeker · 25th March 2005, 01:29 PM

I have but only in a professional capacity. I'm sure it would be vastly different to be a family member.

Cleon · 25th March 2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless. Makes for many postings and apperiences on Hanniety's show, but worthless.

I wouldn't say worthless, really, though I am incredibly nauseated by those who simply want to use the issue to score "points" against perceived political enemies. (such as Hannity, Limbaugh, easycruise, etc)

This sort of issue is something everyone has an opinion on. There's nothing wrong with that. I think those of us who have been in the Schiavos'/Schindlers' position can relate a bit more. I don't think our opinions matter more, really, but I think they're certainly stronger and more sympathetic to both parties than the politicals.

Mr. Skinny · 25th March 2005, 01:38 PM

I was party to the decision to discontinue life support for my dad. My vote counted I suppose, though we reached a unanimous decision fairly quickly.

I've also had the experience of seeing my sister in a coma for over three months.

CBL4 · 25th March 2005, 02:47 PM

My father had a major stroke and was left with very limited communication skills. My mother thought he indicated that he wanted to live. I was not sure he could understand what was being asked or even answered the question. I bowed to her belief.

If it happens to me, I hope that my wife is the one who gets to make the decision because I have made my desires clear - e.g. kill me painlessly.

CBL

pgwenthold · 25th March 2005, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless.

I tend to agree, which is why I defer the decision to the person who I believe is in the best position to decide what is best for her: her husband.

I know that if it were me lying on that bed, I would want my wife to make the decision, not my parents. My wife knows me a whole lot better than they do.

LostAngeles · 25th March 2005, 03:04 PM

Twice, but my vote didn't actually count, though it was recognized. The first time it came down to my grandparents' decision with my uncle. The second time it was my grandfather's decision alone on my grandmother.

I didn't stay in the room when they let my uncle go, but I stayed for my grandmother. The heart monitor would show the slowing heartrate but then jump up like she was recovering, like she was going to pull out of it and live.

It did that several times.

If there is a hell and I go there, it will be me, in that room, watching that happen for all eternity.

Boo · 25th March 2005, 05:06 PM

Professionally, yes many times. Prsonally, yes.

My grandma had Organic brain syndrome for many years and eventually turned the entire family into strangers with the exception of her husband of sixty plus years. Eventually she went into systemic organ failure requiring ongoing dialysis, tube feedings, IV fluids for hydration and a urinary catheter. The adult grandchildren of which I was one were all given a voice in the discontinuing of any therapies. Our family ranges the gamut from extreme religious right wing to New Age. Religious/belief considerations were excluded as factors for making a choice. We agreed to abide by what we knew of her and what her considerations would have been as well as what we thought it must be like for grandpa to see her persist in that state.

All of us felt it best that everything be discontinued, this was told to my grandfather by his children (our parents) who agreed. She remained alive for another 2 weeks until he sat her bedside and explicitly told her that it was ok for her to let go and he would see her again. She died less than 12 hours later.

As a bit of background, she was in hospice and did have a DNR however at that time Living wills did not exist in the format that would have allowed for her to specify treatments and ending of treatment.

Yep, been there, done that and sat with families after having to make the same decision.

Boo

a_unique_person · 25th March 2005, 06:38 PM

Not a party, but an aunty requested and was granted a 'scheduled' death as she was dying of cancer in a hospice. Then the experimental cancer she had tried apparently needed some follow up, so they kept here alive for a few more days till the extra tests could be done, then did it.

My sister in laws father died an excruciating death of cance, but, because he was a Catholic, they prolonged the death and treated him with pain killers which just did not work. She believes that the refusal to let him just die of an overdose of pain killers was inhuman, and was terribly shaken by seeing what he went through.

The big mistake in the Terri case is that her husband tried so hard to keep her alive for so long. Now he is being made to pay for probably not taking the medical advice he would have been given years ago to pull the plug then.

Meadmaker · 25th March 2005, 07:20 PM

Yes. My father had a massive heart attack at the age of 68 and we were told that there was very little chance he would live. We had to decide whether or not to have a Do Not Rescuscitate (sp?)
order on him. My brother, sister, mother and I were unanimous. Let him die if it came to that.

His doctor actually talked us out of it. It turned out to be unnecessary. After a week of unconsciousness and a couple of surgeries, he woke up. That was nine years ago, and he is still alive today, and as healthy as he was before the heart attack, although he takes quite a cocktail of drugs to keep it that way.

After that experience, I wouldn't criticize anyone for either decision they made. That was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And since our father was in cardiac intensive care for a week, we were hanging around that ward for a week. We got the experience of seeing many families rush suddenly to the hospital for exactly the same reason we had, and had to go through the same decisions, and in some cases much more painful outcomes.

My wife and I both know the correct answer for each other, though. Pull the plug.

KillerBob · 25th March 2005, 08:57 PM

Yes, personally and professionally.

Since my wife and I are the only members of my immediate family that work in the medical field, the decision to end life support or stop further treatment has been almost solely mine for three of my grandparents and one uncle. Despite the emotions involved, all of those decisions were pretty clear cut in the face of advanced age and terminal disease. In my uncle's case, it was brain death, including the brain stem which meant that he couldn't even breathe without being on a ventilator. In each case, as soon as the decision was made, I parked myself at the bedside and stayed there until the end. Whether it took hours or days, in each case I felt that I had ultimately made the decision, so I'd also be the one to see it through.

In my career as a respiratory therapist, I've discussed the issue with families on many occasions.

And the most common way of "ending life support" is to take someone off a ventilator, so as an RT, I've personally flipped the switch and ended someone's life on many occasions.

When it came to doing that, one thing that surprised me was how often people were left to die alone. In my experience, more often than not the family would make the decision then leave before the vent was turned off.

Unless there was an emergency, after removing the vent I always tried to stay at the bedside. I just don't like the idea of leaving someone to die alone, something that I've found happens far to often in healthcare facilities.

I always figured that if there was any perception left, they would know that someone was there all the way to the end.

But I suppose that idea is really for my own comfort...

davefoc · 26th March 2005, 08:54 AM

I have been at the periphery of four deaths. Three of these people (grandmother, father-in-law and an aunt) died in a hospital. In the case of my father-in-law it was a safety necessity as he was vomiting blood (he was living in our house) as he died of hepatitis.

My Grandmother's experience was particularly bad as they continued to do tests with what appeared to be useless, painful and/or uncomfortable tests to keep her alive. She begged to come home but we left her in the hospital.

In my Mother's case my brother and father were determined that she would die at home. She did and I really admire my father and brother for deciding to do that.

I don't remember any specific DNR decisions in any of the cases. At some point it just became obvious to everybody that the time had come.

Skeptic Ginger · 27th March 2005, 02:54 AM

As a nurse for many years I have seen many people die when care, including IV fluids were withdrawn. I took care of many people who refused to have any more care for their cancers. They had had enough.

I have seen very large doses of morphine used on more than one occasion to hasten death when a ventilator was withdrawn. It is done every day in hospitals across the USA.

When our family agreed my grandfather should be allowed to die rather than have his completely gangrenous legs amputated, I reviewed his medical care and had the doctors stop the antibiotics and drugs acting to increase his blood pressure. They hadn't done so on their own despite being told to stop all care except comfort measures.

My own father asked me personally for help speeding his inevitable death from cancer along. I told him which medical interventions to refuse when the doctor made everything sound like it was going to help. I made sure my Mom knew she could call for help without having to have medical interventions when help arrived. It actually helped when my Dad couldn't get back to bed one night and she had to call 911 for help. They got him back to bed and no one suggested he needed to go to the hospital. He died the next night.

While fighting to live is appropriate for everyone in some stages of illness, at some point people really do decide they have had enough. They don't need to fight any more and accept death as the natural thing that it is.

25th March 2005, 01:21 PM	#1
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Have you ever been a party to pulling the plug I don't mean being aware of it but, rather, being either the decisionmaker or part of a small group who made the decision. In other words, did your vote count? For the record, I did.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

25th March 2005, 01:23 PM	#2
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Me too. My grandmother, just this past year.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2005, 01:25 PM	#3
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless. Makes for many postings and apperiences on Hanniety's show, but worthless.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

25th March 2005, 01:29 PM	#4
TruthSeeker Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,602	I have but only in a professional capacity. I'm sure it would be vastly different to be a family member.
TruthSeeker Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 3,602	__________________ Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide I am naive enough to believe that society will be changed by examination of ideas through books and the press, and that information can prove to be greater than the dissemination of stupidity - Dr. Seuss

25th March 2005, 01:29 PM	#5
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,532	Quote: Originally posted by Ed I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless. Makes for many postings and apperiences on Hanniety's show, but worthless. I wouldn't say worthless, really, though I am incredibly nauseated by those who simply want to use the issue to score "points" against perceived political enemies. (such as Hannity, Limbaugh, easycruise, etc) This sort of issue is something everyone has an opinion on. There's nothing wrong with that. I think those of us who have been in the Schiavos'/Schindlers' position can relate a bit more. I don't think our opinions matter more, really, but I think they're certainly stronger and more sympathetic to both parties than the politicals.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

25th March 2005, 01:38 PM	#6
Mr. Skinny Alien Cryogenic Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 8,192	I was party to the decision to discontinue life support for my dad. My vote counted I suppose, though we reached a unanimous decision fairly quickly. I've also had the experience of seeing my sister in a coma for over three months.
	__________________ U.S.L.S 1969-1975 "thanks skinny. And bite me. :-) - The Bad Astronomer, 11/15/02 on Paltalk "He's harmless in a rather dorky way." - Katana "Deities do not organize, they command." - Hokulele

25th March 2005, 02:47 PM	#7
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349	My father had a major stroke and was left with very limited communication skills. My mother thought he indicated that he wanted to live. I was not sure he could understand what was being asked or even answered the question. I bowed to her belief. If it happens to me, I hope that my wife is the one who gets to make the decision because I have made my desires clear - e.g. kill me painlessly. CBL
CBL4 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,349

25th March 2005, 02:59 PM	#8
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Ed I sort of view this issue as I do abortion: if you haven't been in those shoes one's opinion is sort of worthless. I tend to agree, which is why I defer the decision to the person who I believe is in the best position to decide what is best for her: her husband. I know that if it were me lying on that bed, I would want my wife to make the decision, not my parents. My wife knows me a whole lot better than they do.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

25th March 2005, 03:04 PM	#9
LostAngeles Anti-WM Jihadist Join Date: May 2004 Location: Having a cup of tea. Posts: 10,159	Twice, but my vote didn't actually count, though it was recognized. The first time it came down to my grandparents' decision with my uncle. The second time it was my grandfather's decision alone on my grandmother. I didn't stay in the room when they let my uncle go, but I stayed for my grandmother. The heart monitor would show the slowing heartrate but then jump up like she was recovering, like she was going to pull out of it and live. It did that several times. If there is a hell and I go there, it will be me, in that room, watching that happen for all eternity.
	__________________ "There is also a likelihood that the settlement will fall between two biomes, potentially hazardous if the player expects a peaceful oceanside meadow, without realizing the ocean is full of amphibious zombie whales." - Dwarf Fortress Wik

25th March 2005, 05:06 PM	#10
Boo ts Join Date: May 2003 Location: state of chaos Posts: 3,743	Professionally, yes many times. Prsonally, yes. My grandma had Organic brain syndrome for many years and eventually turned the entire family into strangers with the exception of her husband of sixty plus years. Eventually she went into systemic organ failure requiring ongoing dialysis, tube feedings, IV fluids for hydration and a urinary catheter. The adult grandchildren of which I was one were all given a voice in the discontinuing of any therapies. Our family ranges the gamut from extreme religious right wing to New Age. Religious/belief considerations were excluded as factors for making a choice. We agreed to abide by what we knew of her and what her considerations would have been as well as what we thought it must be like for grandpa to see her persist in that state. All of us felt it best that everything be discontinued, this was told to my grandfather by his children (our parents) who agreed. She remained alive for another 2 weeks until he sat her bedside and explicitly told her that it was ok for her to let go and he would see her again. She died less than 12 hours later. As a bit of background, she was in hospice and did have a DNR however at that time Living wills did not exist in the format that would have allowed for her to specify treatments and ending of treatment. Yep, been there, done that and sat with families after having to make the same decision. Boo
	__________________ Wounds heal. Morally Obtuse. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

25th March 2005, 06:38 PM	#11
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,329	Not a party, but an aunty requested and was granted a 'scheduled' death as she was dying of cancer in a hospice. Then the experimental cancer she had tried apparently needed some follow up, so they kept here alive for a few more days till the extra tests could be done, then did it. My sister in laws father died an excruciating death of cance, but, because he was a Catholic, they prolonged the death and treated him with pain killers which just did not work. She believes that the refusal to let him just die of an overdose of pain killers was inhuman, and was terribly shaken by seeing what he went through. The big mistake in the Terri case is that her husband tried so hard to keep her alive for so long. Now he is being made to pay for probably not taking the medical advice he would have been given years ago to pull the plug then.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

25th March 2005, 07:20 PM	#12
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Yes. My father had a massive heart attack at the age of 68 and we were told that there was very little chance he would live. We had to decide whether or not to have a Do Not Rescuscitate (sp?) order on him. My brother, sister, mother and I were unanimous. Let him die if it came to that. His doctor actually talked us out of it. It turned out to be unnecessary. After a week of unconsciousness and a couple of surgeries, he woke up. That was nine years ago, and he is still alive today, and as healthy as he was before the heart attack, although he takes quite a cocktail of drugs to keep it that way. After that experience, I wouldn't criticize anyone for either decision they made. That was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And since our father was in cardiac intensive care for a week, we were hanging around that ward for a week. We got the experience of seeing many families rush suddenly to the hospital for exactly the same reason we had, and had to go through the same decisions, and in some cases much more painful outcomes. My wife and I both know the correct answer for each other, though. Pull the plug.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

25th March 2005, 08:57 PM	#13
KillerBob Muse Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Near the Gulf of Yoo-Hoo Posts: 607	Yes, personally and professionally. Since my wife and I are the only members of my immediate family that work in the medical field, the decision to end life support or stop further treatment has been almost solely mine for three of my grandparents and one uncle. Despite the emotions involved, all of those decisions were pretty clear cut in the face of advanced age and terminal disease. In my uncle's case, it was brain death, including the brain stem which meant that he couldn't even breathe without being on a ventilator. In each case, as soon as the decision was made, I parked myself at the bedside and stayed there until the end. Whether it took hours or days, in each case I felt that I had ultimately made the decision, so I'd also be the one to see it through. In my career as a respiratory therapist, I've discussed the issue with families on many occasions. And the most common way of "ending life support" is to take someone off a ventilator, so as an RT, I've personally flipped the switch and ended someone's life on many occasions. When it came to doing that, one thing that surprised me was how often people were left to die alone. In my experience, more often than not the family would make the decision then leave before the vent was turned off. Unless there was an emergency, after removing the vent I always tried to stay at the bedside. I just don't like the idea of leaving someone to die alone, something that I've found happens far to often in healthcare facilities. I always figured that if there was any perception left, they would know that someone was there all the way to the end. But I suppose that idea is really for my own comfort...
	__________________ "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." - Jack Handy

26th March 2005, 08:54 AM	#14
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 7,255	I have been at the periphery of four deaths. Three of these people (grandmother, father-in-law and an aunt) died in a hospital. In the case of my father-in-law it was a safety necessity as he was vomiting blood (he was living in our house) as he died of hepatitis. My Grandmother's experience was particularly bad as they continued to do tests with what appeared to be useless, painful and/or uncomfortable tests to keep her alive. She begged to come home but we left her in the hospital. In my Mother's case my brother and father were determined that she would die at home. She did and I really admire my father and brother for deciding to do that. I don't remember any specific DNR decisions in any of the cases. At some point it just became obvious to everybody that the time had come.

27th March 2005, 02:54 AM	#15
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,590	As a nurse for many years I have seen many people die when care, including IV fluids were withdrawn. I took care of many people who refused to have any more care for their cancers. They had had enough. I have seen very large doses of morphine used on more than one occasion to hasten death when a ventilator was withdrawn. It is done every day in hospitals across the USA. When our family agreed my grandfather should be allowed to die rather than have his completely gangrenous legs amputated, I reviewed his medical care and had the doctors stop the antibiotics and drugs acting to increase his blood pressure. They hadn't done so on their own despite being told to stop all care except comfort measures. My own father asked me personally for help speeding his inevitable death from cancer along. I told him which medical interventions to refuse when the doctor made everything sound like it was going to help. I made sure my Mom knew she could call for help without having to have medical interventions when help arrived. It actually helped when my Dad couldn't get back to bed one night and she had to call 911 for help. They got him back to bed and no one suggested he needed to go to the hospital. He died the next night. While fighting to live is appropriate for everyone in some stages of illness, at some point people really do decide they have had enough. They don't need to fight any more and accept death as the natural thing that it is.

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