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toddjh · 26th March 2005, 02:52 PM

Just when you thought these things couldn't get any stranger! Be sure to check out the videos.

I'm not too interested in a lot of <strike>seafood</strike> marine animals, but octopi are just too cool.

Jeremy

wahrheit · 26th March 2005, 03:16 PM

Fascinating. This video seems to be right out of Lucas' ILM facilities.

kedo1981 · 27th March 2005, 07:15 AM

next the "WORLD"

Soapy Sam · 28th March 2005, 02:58 PM

It's harder in air, mind. Still, octopi is cunning beggars. Darn smart for molluscs. Pretty smart by any standard in fact.

Sloe_Bohemian · 28th March 2005, 03:44 PM

Yeah, let's see him come out of the ocean and help me move a couch?!

Still, I was quite impressed by the video. When reading the story, I assumed the definition of "walking" was going to be so open that the story wouldn't really mean much. But as I watched the physical movement, I must admit... that is a clear stride and not really something you can easily dismiss. That certainly appears to be genuine walking.

brachet · 28th March 2005, 07:31 PM

I knowed them slippery critters was hiding something. But this...

Walter Wayne · 28th March 2005, 08:28 PM

If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed.

toddjh · 28th March 2005, 09:21 PM

I think I'm almost as impressed with the funky way that one octopus holds its tentacles to look like a plant as with the fact that it's walking. That is some serious muscle control and some pretty good camouflage! If I didn't already know what it was, I'd be hard-pressed to guess.

Jeremy

Psi Baba · 29th March 2005, 01:06 PM

Those creatures looked a little too Cthuloid for comfort. The photographers may be getting too close to places and things they ought not to be messin' wit'.

Sloe_Bohemian · 29th March 2005, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walter Wayne
If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed.

Fugedaboutit!

They already have that beat. Their tentacles with attached suction cups are already superior to the opposable thumb. They have superior dexterity now.

They just haven't felt sufficient environmental pressures to drive them from their nutrient rich environment and encroach on ours... well, that and maybe the whole skeletal structure thing.

scribble · 29th March 2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psi Baba
Those creatures looked a little too Cthuloid for comfort. The photographers may be getting too close to places and things they ought not to be messin' wit'.

You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish')

If they weren't an average of about a foot long, I'm sure they'd find the Earth an appetizing treat.

The cuttlefish also can change colors, and can ink like some octopuses and squid do.

If you're wondering about the use "octpuses," it's actually preferred according to the two dictionaries I consulted.

I recently studied up a bit on cephalopods.

Edit to add:

And apparently you can enjoy the flavor of an elder god today, if you choose:

http://www.taquitos.net/snacks.php?snack_code=352

Too bizarre.

toddjh · 29th March 2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scribble
You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish')

http://www.marinewallpaper.com/inver...cuttlefish.jpg

Didn't Captain Kirk fight that thing once?

Jeremy

scribble · 29th March 2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toddjh
[b]http://www.marinewallpaper.com/inver...cuttlefish.jpg

Haaa!

Great photo!

Until recently, I did not know that the "cuttlebone" my mom would put in her parakeets' cages was actually from an animal! It was quite a revelation.

Psi Baba · 30th March 2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scribble
You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish')

If they weren't an average of about a foot long, I'm sure they'd find the Earth an appetizing treat.

The cuttlefish also can change colors, and can ink like some octopuses and squid do.

And apparently you can enjoy the flavor of an elder god today, if you choose:

http://www.taquitos.net/snacks.php?snack_code=352

Too bizarre.

Yeah, cuttlefish are cool. That snack is indeed bizarre. I liked their aroma description: "Aroma: Just horrible. Don't smell them, just taste them."
Hmm. You can finish your own jokes at home, folks.

richardm · 30th March 2005, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scribble
If you're wondering about the use "octpuses," it's actually preferred according to the two dictionaries I consulted.

A marine biologist of my acquaintance reckons "Octopodes" is even more correct. But he concedes that "Octopuses" gets you fewer funny looks, plus the opportunity to be patronising when someone tries to correct him with "Octopi".

Dr Adequate · 30th March 2005, 08:34 PM

Yes. The thing is, "octopus" is a Greek noun of the third declension, not a Latin noun of the second declension. Practice saying this in a manner at once haughty and offhand. Pedantry can be fun!

neutrino_cannon · 30th March 2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
Yes. The thing is, "octopus" is a Greek noun of the third declension, not a Latin noun of the second declension. Practice saying this in a manner at once haughty and offhand. Pedantry can be fun!

And praytell, what do the various Greek declensions look like?

Please use the best availible transliteration.

And make sure to list any ways that the case uses differ from Latin.

Achán hiNidráne · 30th March 2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Walter Wayne
If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed.

Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords.

AK-Dave · 31st March 2005, 04:54 PM

Most octopus have a 6 - 18 month lifespan. The longest-lived ones are the giant pacific octopus, which live about 5 years. (generally speaking, the colder the water they live in, the longer they live) With the amount of cunning and inteligence exibited by a year old octopus, it's a good thing they don't live longer or we may not have made it to the top of the food chain.

AK-Dave · 31st March 2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert
Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords.

That would be our Cephalopod Overlords.

ppnl · 31st March 2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AK-Dave
Most octopus have a 6 - 18 month lifespan. The longest-lived ones are the giant pacific octopus, which live about 5 years. (generally speaking, the colder the water they live in, the longer they live) With the amount of cunning and inteligence exibited by a year old octopus, it's a good thing they don't live longer or we may not have made it to the top of the food chain.

I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males?

Just thinking · 2nd April 2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ppnl
I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males?

I think they would die in the process of laying eggs.

Soapy Sam · 3rd April 2005, 03:29 AM

Given that the beasts do seem to be quite smart and that their lives are so short, either they must come with a lot of pre-wired behaviour, or they must be very quick learners.

Just thinking · 3rd April 2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
... either they must come with a lot of pre-wired behaviour, or they must be very quick learners.

And just who taught them how to walk?

AK-Dave · 3rd April 2005, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ppnl
I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males?

Actually, the females usually take care of the eggs until they hatch. The males die about the same time as the females. They pretty much have a pre-programmed lifespan. Some marine animals do not have an old age, and will live until they are killed by something. I believe chitons are an example of this.

Kaylee · 3rd April 2005, 08:58 PM

Very intelligent creatures, especially considering that they never have a chance to learn anything from their parents. I would guess almost everything they need to know to survive must come pre-wired.

http://www.npca.org/marine_and_coast...fe/octopus.asp

Quote:

The giant Pacific octopus is an intelligent creature. In laboratory tests and aquariums, it has been able to solve mazes very quickly, unscrew jar lids to retrieve food inside the jar, and even mimic another octopus in a different tank.

And this agrees with what others have posted:

Quote:

Octopuses generally do not live more than one or two years. The giant Pacific octopus lives longer than most octopus species. Males live about 4 years and females about 3.5 years. They usually die after breeding.

http://www.marinelab.sarasota.fl.us/OCTOPI.HTM

Quote:

Octopuses have the most complex brain of the invertebrates (animals with out backbones). They have long term and short-term memories as do vertebrates. Octopuses learn to solve problems by trial-and-error and experience. Once the problem is solved, octopuses remember and are able to solve it and similar problems repeatedly.

Octopuses sense of touch is acute in it's suckers. The rim of the cups are particularly sensitive. A blindfolded octopus can differentiate between objects of various shapes and sizes as well as a sighted octopus.

Octopuses have highly complex eyes which compare to human visual acuity. Focusing is done by moving the lens in and out rather than by changing its shape as the human eye dose.

Dangerous critters too:

Quote:

Many octopuses produce venomous secretions. This venom is fatal to their favorite prey - crabs and lobsters. The tiny Blue Ringed Octopus in Australia is deadly to humans. It's tiny beak can even penetrate a SCUBA diver's wet suit!

and if it's not careful it can poison itself also. (That one I can't figure out. Why wouldn't evolution have evolved an octopus immune to it's own ink? That is really strangeâ€¦)

Quote:

When threatened, octopuses will often try to escape by releasing a cloud of purple-black ink to confuse the enemy. It's body will change color, release an ink cloud and jet away to safety. Several blotches of ink can be released before the ink sac is empty. The ink is toxic to an octopus in a confined space such as in a cave with little water current or in captivity. If the octopus can not escape the ink (or water is not changed quickly when held in an aquarium), the octopus will become ill or perhaps die.

but they have a tough life from the very first day:

Quote:

Most females will not eat after laying eggs and die soon after her eggs have hatched. Some baby octopuses, like Octopus vulgaris, are carried about in water currents for about a month before they settle to the bottom. Other baby octopuses, like the large egged Octopus joubini, look like miniature adults and immediately start living their life on the bottom. Only one or two out of 200,000 eggs will survive to become adult.

(Start of Shameless Plug For Another Thread

) Hmm, I bet the survivors would be considered self-aware ... ( End of Shameless Plug )

Bruce · 3rd April 2005, 09:14 PM

I'd hate to break it to you, but octopi have been walking on two legs for years. Here is a picture of an octopus that researchers have affectionately dubbed "Henry".

AK-Dave · 3rd April 2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shera
[/b]
Dangerous critters too:
[/b]

The blue ring octopus has the same neurotoxin - TTX, a sodium channel blocker - as that puffer fish that kills you if you eat the wrong parts. It is not actually produced by the octopus or puffer fish, but by a symbiotic bacteria that lives in them.

Quote:

and if it's not careful it can poison itself also. (That one I can't figure out. Why wouldn't evolution have evolved an octopus immune to it's own ink? That is really strangeâ€¦)

The ink does not poison the octopus, it suffocates it. It coats its gills and prevents oxygen transfer. It is usually only a problem if the octopus is in a fish tank or something, as the ink can't dissipate. This is why people who keep pet octopus need good filtration on their fish tanks.

Kaylee · 4th April 2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AK-Dave
The blue ring octopus has the same neurotoxin - TTX, a sodium channel blocker - as that puffer fish that kills you if you eat the wrong parts. It is not actually produced by the octopus or puffer fish, but by a symbiotic bacteria that lives in them.

Looks like I clicked on the wrong web site. Thanks Dave.

Quote:

The ink does not poison the octopus, it suffocates it. It coats its gills and prevents oxygen transfer. It is usually only a problem if the octopus is in a fish tank or something, as the ink can't dissipate. This is why people who keep pet octopus need good filtration on their fish tanks.

Now that makes more sense, but still begs the question -- why didn't evolution produce an octopus with ink proof gills?

Anyway, looks like an octopus of a non-poisonous variety would be a cool pet. I'd consider it -- but no houseplant has ever survived my care.

Shera

Extras -- As I have a compulsion to find related links on the net -- here they are along with some cut and pastes for the other anally inclined.

Re TTX:
http://www.dal.ca/~ceph/TCP/bluering2.html

TTX is found not only in blue-rings and many fishes in the family Tetraodontidae (hence the name tetrodotoxin), but also in several other groups of animals including California newts (genus Taricha), central American harlequin frogs (genus Atelopus), as well as a scattering of invertebrates including a South American tunicate (sea squirt), a sea star, several snails, some xanthid crabs, a horseshoe crab, two ribbon worms, some arrow worms, and a flatworm. It was a mystery why such a diversity of unrelated organisms would all evolve the same toxin, until it was recently discovered that bacteria associated with many of these animals actually produce TTX. This is the case in blue-ringed octopuses. Their salivary glands harbor dense colonies of TTX-producing bacteria. The blue-rings have evolved a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria, providing them ideal living conditions while using the toxin they produce to subdue prey and as part of their highly advertised defense.

There are other poisonous octopuses:
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~ch...%20octopus.htm

Relatives of Octopus aculeatus have a poison in their bodies thatâ€™s similar to TTX, the poison in blue-ring venom (Robertson et al. 2004 Toxicon 44: 765).

A thread on ink in a forum for people interested in octopuses:
http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6

Johnny Pneumatic · 4th April 2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shera
Now that makes more sense, but still begs the question -- why didn't evolution produce an octopus with ink proof gills?

I'm going to guess because they haven't lived in small glass tanks for millions of years; they don't need them in the wild. Or maybe they can't, gills are semi permeable membrane tubing where oxygen goes through by osmosis to the blood inside the tubing. If something coats them to where gas can't pass then they can't breath. A similar question to this would be why haven't babies evolved an immunity to plastic bags and buckets of water?

Kaylee · 4th April 2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkepticJ
I'm going to guess because they haven't lived in small glass tanks for millions of years; they don't need them in the wild.

That sounds like a good guess.

One of the web sites I cut and pasted from said that some octopuses could get into trouble if they were stuck in a small cave while using their ink -- but as AK-Dave showed with his last post, not all of the web sites I found had the best quality information. So perhaps most octopuses could escape from a cave before they ran into trouble from their own ink.

Quote:

A similar question to this would be why haven't babies evolved an immunity to plastic bags and buckets of water?

Well, I think that would be a more comparable question if babies produced their own plastic bags and buckets of water, the same way that octopuses produce their own ink.

But I agree, an octopus in the wild and out in the open (not a small cave) probably would have no problems from his ink.

toddjh · 4th April 2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shera
That sounds like a good guess. One of the web sites I cut and pasted from said that some octopuses could get into trouble if they were stuck in a small cave while using their ink -- but as AK-Dave showed with his last post, not all of the web sites I found had the best quality information. So perhaps most octopuses could escape from a cave before they ran into trouble from their own ink.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that octopuses use their ink for cover to buy them time to escape a threat. In that case, they'd probably get away from the ink before it had a chance to affect them.

Quote:

Well, I think that would be a more comparable question if babies produced their own plastic bags and buckets of water, the same way that octopuses produce their own ink.

Babies produce their own carbon dioxide. The lack of airtight containers that can fit over a baby's head in the wild is analogous to the fact that an octopus's natural environment doesn't provide a lot of opportunities for them to sit in their own ink for long.

Jeremy

Kaylee · 4th April 2005, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toddjh
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that octopuses use their ink for cover to buy them time to escape a threat. In that case, they'd probably get away from the ink before it had a chance to affect them.

Babies produce their own carbon dioxide. The lack of airtight containers that can fit over a baby's head in the wild is analogous to the fact that an octopus's natural environment doesn't provide a lot of opportunities for them to sit in their own ink for long.

Jeremy

Caves? As I said, one website I clicked on said that an octupus could get into trouble if it got stuck in a cave while using their ink for cover.I don't know if the person who put that website toghether knew what he was talking about. Maybe not.
I seem to vaguely recall octopuses as creatures that prefer to hide, but I really don't know if getting stuck in caves is an issue for them.

DaChew · 6th April 2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert
Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords.

Oh, don't you worry. We knew this would happen.

Come on you ink shooting bastards. Your mother was a daddy longlegs. Detroit's ready for you. BRING IT!

That's how we roll up on your kind.

26th March 2005, 02:52 PM	#1
toddjh Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 3,252	Walking octopi! Just when you thought these things couldn't get any stranger! Be sure to check out the videos. I'm not too interested in a lot of <strike>seafood</strike> marine animals, but octopi are just too cool. Jeremy

26th March 2005, 03:16 PM	#2
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591	Fascinating. This video seems to be right out of Lucas' ILM facilities.
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,591

27th March 2005, 07:15 AM	#3
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,103	next the "WORLD"
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

28th March 2005, 02:58 PM	#4
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,928	It's harder in air, mind. Still, octopi is cunning beggars. Darn smart for molluscs. Pretty smart by any standard in fact.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,928

28th March 2005, 03:44 PM	#5
Sloe_Bohemian Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 356	Yeah, let's see him come out of the ocean and help me move a couch?! Still, I was quite impressed by the video. When reading the story, I assumed the definition of "walking" was going to be so open that the story wouldn't really mean much. But as I watched the physical movement, I must admit... that is a clear stride and not really something you can easily dismiss. That certainly appears to be genuine walking.
	__________________ ----------------------------- Every event in life is more complex and intricate than is bourne out in the results. Like the Mona Lisa, the portrait is often simple and straight forward... but the painting of it shows true genius. And thus is such as is this letter, the sending of which involved more than just the simple words strung together here.... I yelled at the monitor too.

28th March 2005, 07:31 PM	#6
brachet Scholar Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	I knowed them slippery critters was hiding something. But this...
brachet Scholar Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	__________________ Sigh...

28th March 2005, 08:28 PM	#7
Walter Wayne Wayne's Words Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,451	If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed.

28th March 2005, 09:21 PM	#8
toddjh Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 3,252	I think I'm almost as impressed with the funky way that one octopus holds its tentacles to look like a plant as with the fact that it's walking. That is some serious muscle control and some pretty good camouflage! If I didn't already know what it was, I'd be hard-pressed to guess. Jeremy

29th March 2005, 01:06 PM	#9
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,209	Those creatures looked a little too Cthuloid for comfort. The photographers may be getting too close to places and things they ought not to be messin' wit'.
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

29th March 2005, 04:47 PM	#10
Sloe_Bohemian Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2004 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 356	Quote: Originally posted by Walter Wayne If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed. Fugedaboutit! They already have that beat. Their tentacles with attached suction cups are already superior to the opposable thumb. They have superior dexterity now. They just haven't felt sufficient environmental pressures to drive them from their nutrient rich environment and encroach on ours... well, that and maybe the whole skeletal structure thing.
	__________________ ----------------------------- Every event in life is more complex and intricate than is bourne out in the results. Like the Mona Lisa, the portrait is often simple and straight forward... but the painting of it shows true genius. And thus is such as is this letter, the sending of which involved more than just the simple words strung together here.... I yelled at the monitor too.

29th March 2005, 05:00 PM	#11
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	Quote: Originally posted by Psi Baba Those creatures looked a little too Cthuloid for comfort. The photographers may be getting too close to places and things they ought not to be messin' wit'. You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish') If they weren't an average of about a foot long, I'm sure they'd find the Earth an appetizing treat. The cuttlefish also can change colors, and can ink like some octopuses and squid do. If you're wondering about the use "octpuses," it's actually preferred according to the two dictionaries I consulted. I recently studied up a bit on cephalopods. Edit to add: And apparently you can enjoy the flavor of an elder god today, if you choose: http://www.taquitos.net/snacks.php?snack_code=352 Too bizarre.
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	__________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson "I was thinking about painting my house, but I was worried about how well the latex paint we bought would bond to the existing siding. So I got on the Interweb and searched for latex bondage."

29th March 2005, 05:07 PM	#12
toddjh Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 3,252	Quote: Originally posted by scribble You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish') http://www.marinewallpaper.com/inver...cuttlefish.jpg Didn't Captain Kirk fight that thing once? Jeremy

29th March 2005, 05:09 PM	#13
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	Quote: Originally posted by toddjh [b]http://www.marinewallpaper.com/inver...cuttlefish.jpg Haaa! Great photo! Until recently, I did not know that the "cuttlebone" my mom would put in her parakeets' cages was actually from an animal! It was quite a revelation.
scribble Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,696	__________________ "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson "I was thinking about painting my house, but I was worried about how well the latex paint we bought would bond to the existing siding. So I got on the Interweb and searched for latex bondage."

30th March 2005, 07:22 AM	#14
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,209	Quote: Originally posted by scribble You should see their cousin, the cuttlefish. (Try a google images search for 'cuttlefish') If they weren't an average of about a foot long, I'm sure they'd find the Earth an appetizing treat. The cuttlefish also can change colors, and can ink like some octopuses and squid do. And apparently you can enjoy the flavor of an elder god today, if you choose: http://www.taquitos.net/snacks.php?snack_code=352 Too bizarre. Yeah, cuttlefish are cool. That snack is indeed bizarre. I liked their aroma description: "Aroma: Just horrible. Don't smell them, just taste them." Hmm. You can finish your own jokes at home, folks.
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

30th March 2005, 07:40 AM	#15
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by scribble If you're wondering about the use "octpuses," it's actually preferred according to the two dictionaries I consulted. A marine biologist of my acquaintance reckons "Octopodes" is even more correct. But he concedes that "Octopuses" gets you fewer funny looks, plus the opportunity to be patronising when someone tries to correct him with "Octopi".
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

30th March 2005, 08:34 PM	#16
Dr Adequate Banned Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,897	Yes. The thing is, "octopus" is a Greek noun of the third declension, not a Latin noun of the second declension. Practice saying this in a manner at once haughty and offhand. Pedantry can be fun!

30th March 2005, 09:11 PM	#17
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,575	Quote: Originally posted by Dr Adequate Yes. The thing is, "octopus" is a Greek noun of the third declension, not a Latin noun of the second declension. Practice saying this in a manner at once haughty and offhand. Pedantry can be fun! And praytell, what do the various Greek declensions look like? Please use the best availible transliteration. And make sure to list any ways that the case uses differ from Latin.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

30th March 2005, 09:56 PM	#18
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,979	Quote: Originally posted by Walter Wayne If they evolve opposable thumbs, humanity is so screwed. Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

31st March 2005, 04:54 PM	#19
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 577	Most octopus have a 6 - 18 month lifespan. The longest-lived ones are the giant pacific octopus, which live about 5 years. (generally speaking, the colder the water they live in, the longer they live) With the amount of cunning and inteligence exibited by a year old octopus, it's a good thing they don't live longer or we may not have made it to the top of the food chain.
	__________________ All those who fight monsters inevitably become one.

31st March 2005, 04:56 PM	#20
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 577	Quote: Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords. That would be our Cephalopod Overlords.
	__________________ All those who fight monsters inevitably become one.

31st March 2005, 05:32 PM	#21
ppnl New Blood Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 19	Quote: Originally posted by AK-Dave Most octopus have a 6 - 18 month lifespan. The longest-lived ones are the giant pacific octopus, which live about 5 years. (generally speaking, the colder the water they live in, the longer they live) With the amount of cunning and inteligence exibited by a year old octopus, it's a good thing they don't live longer or we may not have made it to the top of the food chain. I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males?
ppnl New Blood Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 19

2nd April 2005, 09:33 PM	#22
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Quote: Originally posted by ppnl I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males? I think they would die in the process of laying eggs.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

3rd April 2005, 03:29 AM	#23
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,928	Given that the beasts do seem to be quite smart and that their lives are so short, either they must come with a lot of pre-wired behaviour, or they must be very quick learners.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,928

3rd April 2005, 07:55 AM	#24
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam ... either they must come with a lot of pre-wired behaviour, or they must be very quick learners. And just who taught them how to walk?
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

3rd April 2005, 04:44 PM	#25
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 577	Quote: Originally posted by ppnl I know the females die after laying eggs. But what about the males? Actually, the females usually take care of the eggs until they hatch. The males die about the same time as the females. They pretty much have a pre-programmed lifespan. Some marine animals do not have an old age, and will live until they are killed by something. I believe chitons are an example of this.
	__________________ All those who fight monsters inevitably become one.

3rd April 2005, 08:58 PM	#26
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	Very intelligent creatures, especially considering that they never have a chance to learn anything from their parents. I would guess almost everything they need to know to survive must come pre-wired. http://www.npca.org/marine_and_coast...fe/octopus.asp Quote: The giant Pacific octopus is an intelligent creature. In laboratory tests and aquariums, it has been able to solve mazes very quickly, unscrew jar lids to retrieve food inside the jar, and even mimic another octopus in a different tank. And this agrees with what others have posted: Quote: Octopuses generally do not live more than one or two years. The giant Pacific octopus lives longer than most octopus species. Males live about 4 years and females about 3.5 years. They usually die after breeding. http://www.marinelab.sarasota.fl.us/OCTOPI.HTM Quote: Octopuses have the most complex brain of the invertebrates (animals with out backbones). They have long term and short-term memories as do vertebrates. Octopuses learn to solve problems by trial-and-error and experience. Once the problem is solved, octopuses remember and are able to solve it and similar problems repeatedly. Octopuses sense of touch is acute in it's suckers. The rim of the cups are particularly sensitive. A blindfolded octopus can differentiate between objects of various shapes and sizes as well as a sighted octopus. Octopuses have highly complex eyes which compare to human visual acuity. Focusing is done by moving the lens in and out rather than by changing its shape as the human eye dose. Dangerous critters too: Quote: Many octopuses produce venomous secretions. This venom is fatal to their favorite prey - crabs and lobsters. The tiny Blue Ringed Octopus in Australia is deadly to humans. It's tiny beak can even penetrate a SCUBA diver's wet suit! and if it's not careful it can poison itself also. (That one I can't figure out. Why wouldn't evolution have evolved an octopus immune to it's own ink? That is really strangeâ€¦) Quote: When threatened, octopuses will often try to escape by releasing a cloud of purple-black ink to confuse the enemy. It's body will change color, release an ink cloud and jet away to safety. Several blotches of ink can be released before the ink sac is empty. The ink is toxic to an octopus in a confined space such as in a cave with little water current or in captivity. If the octopus can not escape the ink (or water is not changed quickly when held in an aquarium), the octopus will become ill or perhaps die. but they have a tough life from the very first day: Quote: Most females will not eat after laying eggs and die soon after her eggs have hatched. Some baby octopuses, like Octopus vulgaris, are carried about in water currents for about a month before they settle to the bottom. Other baby octopuses, like the large egged Octopus joubini, look like miniature adults and immediately start living their life on the bottom. Only one or two out of 200,000 eggs will survive to become adult. (Start of Shameless Plug For Another Thread ) Hmm, I bet the survivors would be considered self-aware ... ( End of Shameless Plug )
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman''

3rd April 2005, 09:14 PM	#27
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,522	I'd hate to break it to you, but octopi have been walking on two legs for years. Here is a picture of an octopus that researchers have affectionately dubbed "Henry".
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

3rd April 2005, 10:39 PM	#28
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 577	Quote: Originally posted by Shera [/b] Dangerous critters too: [/b] The blue ring octopus has the same neurotoxin - TTX, a sodium channel blocker - as that puffer fish that kills you if you eat the wrong parts. It is not actually produced by the octopus or puffer fish, but by a symbiotic bacteria that lives in them. Quote: and if it's not careful it can poison itself also. (That one I can't figure out. Why wouldn't evolution have evolved an octopus immune to it's own ink? That is really strangeâ€¦) The ink does not poison the octopus, it suffocates it. It coats its gills and prevents oxygen transfer. It is usually only a problem if the octopus is in a fish tank or something, as the ink can't dissipate. This is why people who keep pet octopus need good filtration on their fish tanks.
	__________________ All those who fight monsters inevitably become one.

4th April 2005, 03:00 AM	#29
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	Quote: Originally posted by AK-Dave The blue ring octopus has the same neurotoxin - TTX, a sodium channel blocker - as that puffer fish that kills you if you eat the wrong parts. It is not actually produced by the octopus or puffer fish, but by a symbiotic bacteria that lives in them. Looks like I clicked on the wrong web site. Thanks Dave. Quote: The ink does not poison the octopus, it suffocates it. It coats its gills and prevents oxygen transfer. It is usually only a problem if the octopus is in a fish tank or something, as the ink can't dissipate. This is why people who keep pet octopus need good filtration on their fish tanks. Now that makes more sense, but still begs the question -- why didn't evolution produce an octopus with ink proof gills? Anyway, looks like an octopus of a non-poisonous variety would be a cool pet. I'd consider it -- but no houseplant has ever survived my care. Shera Extras -- As I have a compulsion to find related links on the net -- here they are along with some cut and pastes for the other anally inclined. Re TTX: http://www.dal.ca/~ceph/TCP/bluering2.html TTX is found not only in blue-rings and many fishes in the family Tetraodontidae (hence the name tetrodotoxin), but also in several other groups of animals including California newts (genus Taricha), central American harlequin frogs (genus Atelopus), as well as a scattering of invertebrates including a South American tunicate (sea squirt), a sea star, several snails, some xanthid crabs, a horseshoe crab, two ribbon worms, some arrow worms, and a flatworm. It was a mystery why such a diversity of unrelated organisms would all evolve the same toxin, until it was recently discovered that bacteria associated with many of these animals actually produce TTX. This is the case in blue-ringed octopuses. Their salivary glands harbor dense colonies of TTX-producing bacteria. The blue-rings have evolved a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria, providing them ideal living conditions while using the toxin they produce to subdue prey and as part of their highly advertised defense. There are other poisonous octopuses: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~ch...%20octopus.htm Relatives of Octopus aculeatus have a poison in their bodies thatâ€™s similar to TTX, the poison in blue-ring venom (Robertson et al. 2004 Toxicon 44: 765). A thread on ink in a forum for people interested in octopuses: http://www.tonmo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman''

4th April 2005, 07:45 AM	#30
Johnny Pneumatic Corpuscle Clay Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 2,089	Quote: Originally posted by Shera Now that makes more sense, but still begs the question -- why didn't evolution produce an octopus with ink proof gills? I'm going to guess because they haven't lived in small glass tanks for millions of years; they don't need them in the wild. Or maybe they can't, gills are semi permeable membrane tubing where oxygen goes through by osmosis to the blood inside the tubing. If something coats them to where gas can't pass then they can't breath. A similar question to this would be why haven't babies evolved an immunity to plastic bags and buckets of water?
	__________________ If we don't play god, who will?-James Watson What the hell is the matter with you people? Get your minds into the gutter!-Dorian Gray Good Lord - I've heard about this - cat juggling! Stop! Stop! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Good. Father, could there be a God that would let this happen?- Navin R. Johnson, The Jerk There is nothing to believe in. There's no need to believe...There is nothing to believe in in this world. -Vicious, Cowboy Bebop

4th April 2005, 08:56 AM	#31
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	Quote: Originally posted by SkepticJ I'm going to guess because they haven't lived in small glass tanks for millions of years; they don't need them in the wild. That sounds like a good guess. One of the web sites I cut and pasted from said that some octopuses could get into trouble if they were stuck in a small cave while using their ink -- but as AK-Dave showed with his last post, not all of the web sites I found had the best quality information. So perhaps most octopuses could escape from a cave before they ran into trouble from their own ink. Quote: A similar question to this would be why haven't babies evolved an immunity to plastic bags and buckets of water? Well, I think that would be a more comparable question if babies produced their own plastic bags and buckets of water, the same way that octopuses produce their own ink. But I agree, an octopus in the wild and out in the open (not a small cave) probably would have no problems from his ink.
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman''

4th April 2005, 09:02 AM	#32
toddjh Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 3,252	Quote: Originally posted by Shera That sounds like a good guess. One of the web sites I cut and pasted from said that some octopuses could get into trouble if they were stuck in a small cave while using their ink -- but as AK-Dave showed with his last post, not all of the web sites I found had the best quality information. So perhaps most octopuses could escape from a cave before they ran into trouble from their own ink. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that octopuses use their ink for cover to buy them time to escape a threat. In that case, they'd probably get away from the ink before it had a chance to affect them. Quote: Well, I think that would be a more comparable question if babies produced their own plastic bags and buckets of water, the same way that octopuses produce their own ink. Babies produce their own carbon dioxide. The lack of airtight containers that can fit over a baby's head in the wild is analogous to the fact that an octopus's natural environment doesn't provide a lot of opportunities for them to sit in their own ink for long. Jeremy

4th April 2005, 10:16 AM	#33
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	Quote: Originally posted by toddjh Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that octopuses use their ink for cover to buy them time to escape a threat. In that case, they'd probably get away from the ink before it had a chance to affect them. Babies produce their own carbon dioxide. The lack of airtight containers that can fit over a baby's head in the wild is analogous to the fact that an octopus's natural environment doesn't provide a lot of opportunities for them to sit in their own ink for long. Jeremy Caves? As I said, one website I clicked on said that an octupus could get into trouble if it got stuck in a cave while using their ink for cover.I don't know if the person who put that website toghether knew what he was talking about. Maybe not. I seem to vaguely recall octopuses as creatures that prefer to hide, but I really don't know if getting stuck in caves is an issue for them.
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,874	__________________ When everyone think alike, no one thinks very much. -- Walter Lippman''

6th April 2005, 10:10 AM	#34
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	Quote: Originally posted by Mark A. Siefert Personally, I"m looking forward to our future octopoid overlords. Oh, don't you worry. We knew this would happen. Come on you ink shooting bastards. Your mother was a daddy longlegs. Detroit's ready for you. BRING IT! That's how we roll up on your kind.
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043