UK General Election on 5th May - voting intentions?

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 05:59 AM

Since I had extreme issues with the earlier poll on this subject (and if had the wrong date anyway), I thought I'd start one of my own.

I've tried to include all parties which will be represented in a significant number of seats (thanks, Geni, for the list), apologies if I've omited anyone's favoured choice.

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 06:07 AM

Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!.

Well, that won't last.....

Rolfe.

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:10 AM

Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote...

Giz · 5th April 2005, 06:20 AM

I'm torn. At one point I was thinking about voting Tory (more as an anti-Labour protest over some of their policies than because I think Howard will be one of the great British PM's).

Then that d*mn Catholic Archbishop came on the News about a week ago urging all catholics to vote against Labour (due to their abortion stance). Now I want to vote for Labour to kick the Catholics* in the teeth for interfering in politics!

Aargh! So many parties to vote against, and only one vote!

* Nb; the same would go for any religion jumping into the political fray.

richardm · 5th April 2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz
I'm torn. At one point I was thinking about voting Tory (more as an anti-Labour protest over some of their policies than because I think Howard will be one of the great British PM's).

There are other parties to vote for to make an anti-Labour protest without lowering yourself that far

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 06:31 AM

I didn't try it, but I note that the first three parties have come out with the correct colour codes!

By the way, that bunch of Yogic Flying twits aren't going to stand again, are they?

Rolfe.

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:33 AM

I am at the nearest I've ever been for not voting Labour. I believe they have gone too far to the centre/right over the last few years.

However I have no evidence that the Conservative party have changed from when they last held power and that will, in my opinion, mean a return to under funding the NHS, under funding state education, under funding the Police, further reducing the value of the state pension and yet more interference in personal liberties. (And if they went back to their old economic policies it would end up meaning spending even more on social security â€“ just like Thatcher and Major had to! Mind you they would probably increase subsidies to the Rover group just like Thatcher did for British Leylandâ€¦)

As for increasing money on school dinners for kids, this is the party that brought you "Thatcher the Milk Snatcher"

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
There are other parties to vote for to make an anti-Labour protest without lowering yourself that far

Let's be blunt about this (in England especially) a protest vote from Labour to any other party is a vote for a Conservative government.

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
I didn't try it, but I note that the first three parties have come out with the correct colour codes!

By the way, that bunch of Yogic Flying twits aren't going to stand again, are they?

Rolfe.

Natural Law party? Probably.

Giz · 5th April 2005, 06:40 AM

Are you sure Darat? Labour's rhetoric is quite center/right but I would have called them center/left/big govt in practice.

Rest assured the Tories have changed: Hague, IDS, Howard. Can you not tell them apart?

Jaggy Bunnet · 5th April 2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Let's be blunt about this (in England especially) a protest vote from Labour to any other party is a vote for a Conservative government.

Or, more accurately, a Labour government with a smaller majority.

Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win?

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz
Are you sure Darat? Labour's rhetoric is quite center/right but I would have called them center/left/big govt in practice.

I would say no more so then the last Conservative governments. Indeed the Labour government has continued to deregulate areas such as financial services - and don't forget it was a Labour government that gave the Bank of England independence.

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz

Rest assured the Tories have changed: Hague, IDS, Howard. Can you not tell them apart?

Er two of them were bald? You'll have to give me a clue...

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Or, more accurately, a Labour government with a smaller majority.

Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win?

It doesn't take that many votes in the UK to change a government. Whilst I donâ€™t think the Conservatives are likely to win, because they are â€œvoted inâ€, I have a terrible and frightening feeling they may win because people wonâ€™t go out and vote for Labour. And by that I mean people who voted last time for Labour wonâ€™t go out and vote for the Conservatives they just wonâ€™t go out and vote.

Giz · 5th April 2005, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat

Er two of them were bald? You'll have to give me a clue...

Only two of them? (I guess I should have used a smiley...)

Howard is a (small) step towards a less follically challenged leadership. And Dilbert teaches us that the taller candidate with better hair will always win... why worry about their policies?

Darat · 5th April 2005, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Giz
Only two of them? (I guess I should have used a smiley...)

Howard is a (small) step towards a less follically challenged leadership. And Dilbert teaches us that the taller candidate with better hair will always win... why worry about their policies?

Thatâ€™s another good reason to not vote for Mr â€œSomething of the nightâ€. At least Hague and IDS were honest about their baldness, Howard attempts a comb-over rather then admit the truth â€“ heâ€™s already covering up!

richardm · 5th April 2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win?

Well, I'd hope not but I wouldn't like to start counting any chickens just yet. Darat's right - inertia is probably the biggest problem Labour face this time round. I saw Peter Snow at lunchtime and he reckons it's a worryingly small swing to get a hung parliament. Something like 6%. Well, the Labour result in 1997 was 10.2%, so it ain't impossible if things go badly.

I see someone has voted Conservative in the poll. Want to discuss what's attractive about 'em to you? This is a politics forum after all!

(Edited to add: Although I suppose 1997 was an exceptional year)

richardm · 5th April 2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!.

Well, that won't last.....

Probably not 100%, but I should think the SNP are likely to improve on last time. Unless the redrawing of the constituencies has put the kibosh on them. How is the party feeling?

Dragon · 5th April 2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!.

Well, that won't last.....

Rolfe.

SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex?

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Probably not 100%, but I should think the SNP are likely to improve on last time. Unless the redrawing of the constituencies has put the kibosh on them. How is the party feeling?

I'm not picking up on rejoicing in the streets quite yet. I think we still haven't quite figured out what to do with the Scottish Parliament, and the lack of apparent effect in dealing with the Labour knuckle-dragging brigade there has people sort of reeling in frustration. Plus of course there is the problem of some people now seeing the SNP as the party you vote for in Scottish elections but not in Westminster elections.

It's a strange situation, because policy-wise the SNP looks on the face of it to be the party desired by all those who don't like the direction Labour has taken in recent years, and many of my English friends say they'd vote for the SNP on its general policy stand if they got the chance.

However, we still haven't got to grips with the belittling of Scotland and the Scottish people carried out for years by the Westminster parties in Scotland. We're too small, too stupid and too poor to be self-governing, you see. Just like Denmark, you know.... And now of course they point to McConnell and the rest of those neuronally-challenged Holyrood toon cooncillors and say, we told you so. While at the same time I hear bitter complaints in England that "we're ruled by Scots"! I'm no great fan of Gordon Brown, Robin Cook and the rest of them, but they are big hitters, and if we could put people of that calibre into an independent Scottish parliament it would be a different story.

I don't expect a landslide this time. Actually, much as I hate the idea of a Conservative government, it would be very interesting to see what happened to Scottish politics with them in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. It's arguable that if we'd got the Scottish parliament in 1979 as we ought to have, the Thatcher years would have delivered independence.

Right at the moment though, the hereditary "vote for a gerbil if it's got a red rosette on it" brigade are probably not going to stage a mass revolution. The ingrained class loyalties (plus the effects of decades of their preferred comic, the Daily Record, sneering at the SNP and telling a pack of lies) are likely to rally round if it looks as if the Tories might be making any sort of showing.

Still, I'm hoping for a decent result to keep credibility good, and look for a bigger push at the 2007 Holyrood event. Also, I believe Sheridan's lot aren't making much of a showing these days, which helps somewhat. (That's one I didn't put on the ballot, maybe I should, I'll probably get a posse of SSP supporters starting a rival poll!)

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragon
SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex?

Postal votes are a great invention.

(Actually, there was a story.... A few years ago a Scottish-born town councillor in Brighton fell out with his local Labour party and announced that he was leaving and joining the SNP. It was all over the papers that the SNP now had a council seat in Brighton. But they didn't. Unbeknownst to the councillor, there is an active branch of the SNP in London, and the Convener just happened to live in Brighton. (And also to be an ex-Labour party activist.) He tried to phone the guy several times, and even called at his house, explaining who he was and trying to welcome him into the SNP. The man's wife gave him the brush-off and the runaround, and it was perfectly clear that the whole thing had been nothing but a publicity stunt, he'd had no intention at all of joining the SNP, and was astonished to find that there was an active branch on his doorstep.)

Rolfe.

Jaggy Bunnet · 5th April 2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Also, I believe Sheridan's lot aren't making much of a showing these days, which helps somewhat. (That's one I didn't put on the ballot, maybe I should, I'll probably get a posse of SSP supporters starting a rival poll!)

Rolfe.

Sheridan has retired to spend more time with his sunbed, so I think the SSP is now down to just one man and a dog.

I think the most interesting result would be a Labour majority, but only due to the inclusion of their Scottish MP's. That should bring the West Lothian question into sharp focus.

Cleopatra · 5th April 2005, 09:14 AM

I casted a vote for Planet X just to see the results.

So, what about the politics and the agendas behind the elections?

Cleopatra · 5th April 2005, 09:16 AM

Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!
Labour????Are you going to vote for the man who runs after George W Bush???

aerocontrols · 5th April 2005, 09:25 AM

I'm taking part in a program I heard about on Fox News.

I'll be writing concerned letters to undecided British voters to try to help them decide which choice would be best.

Jon_in_london · 5th April 2005, 10:30 AM

Dont I feel like the idiot! D'Oh!

Anyway- I reckon I will vote Tory. Just to piss of Labour. I dont really like the Tories but they stand the best chance of knocking those filthy, lying, cheating, stinking, dishonest, vote-rigging skunks' cumbags off their perch.

Today in the post I received a letter from my local aspiring Labour Party Candidate. Attached was an application form for postal voting. This was my reply:

Dear Mr. Khan,

Thank you ever so much for writing to me to explain who you are, what you would like to see happen and an application for a postal vote.

I assume the latter is to allow some good-old Birmingham Labour Party style vote-rigging and electoral fraud? Thanks very much but I think I may pass on that one and go and vote in person -(for the Torys, just to spite you)- to make sure that you dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags never get your filthy, vote-stealing paws on anything that bears my my signature.

Regards,

Jon_in_london.

Jon_in_london · 5th April 2005, 10:30 AM

Edit: Double post.

Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty.

geni · 5th April 2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
Since I had extreme issues with the earlier poll on this subject (and if had the wrong date anyway), I thought I'd start one of my own.

I've tried to include all parties which will be represented in a significant number of seats (thanks, Geni, for the list), apologies if I've omited anyone's favoured choice.

Rolfe.

UKIP and the greens do't have any seats at westminster nore are they likely to get any.

Oh and I beat you to it with the closest I could get to a comprehensive list

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...threadid=54975

geni · 5th April 2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Edit: Double post.

Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty.

Judging by thier campain "it's the economy stupid".

geni · 5th April 2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragon
SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex?

Well Basingstoke is currently represented by a member of the DUP

geni · 5th April 2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
I don't expect a landslide this time. Actually, much as I hate the idea of a Conservative government, it would be very interesting to see what happened to Scottish politics with them in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. It's arguable that if we'd got the Scottish parliament in 1979 as we ought to have, the Thatcher years would have delivered independence.

I'm not sure it would be techinical posible to pump the oil out of the north sea at that rate.

geni · 5th April 2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote...

Not in either of the places where I live (although in one of them any vote is a wasted vote.

Kodiak · 5th April 2005, 11:28 AM

Blair's Labor (OK - "Labour" - sheesh

...) Party expected to win third term.

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
UKIP and the greens do't have any seats at westminster nore are they likely to get any.

No, but they do have significant serious support and will appear on a lot of ballot papers. Whereas some of the others are really fringe, or just single-seat protest movements. Or raving loonies (Natural Law). I did wonder if I should have included the SSP (which I don't think you did), but Sheridan has left them and they seem to be little more than a rump. I'll be surprised if they can field more than a handful of candidates. In spite of holding a couple of Holyrood seats, which makes them a lot more serious than some of the others.

We could argue the toss till the cows come home, but I haven't had any complaints yet about anyone feeling genuinely disenfranchised by this set of choices.

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote...

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Not in either of the places where I live (although in one of them any vote is a wasted vote.

This is getting on to the question of the two-party system and its perpetuation by first-part-the-post elections. Maybe it would be better to start a new thread if we're going to have an in-depth discussion about proportional representation, but it is a relevant point.

Darat's point is really impossibly simplistic, which is presumably why he put in the smilie. This is because it ignores the question of the different political demographics of different constituencies.

Suppose you live in a constituency which is a Labour/Lib-Dem marginal. You hate Labour. Is a Lib-Dem vote wasted because the Lib-Dems are vanishingly unlikely to form a government? No, because that vote may keep out a Labour candidate, and so contribute to a Conservative victory, even though an actual Conservative vote would be wasted.

Tactical voting lives.

To be brutally honest, the votes of most of us count for diddly-squat because we live in "safe" constituencies. So, I know that the constituency I vote in will return a Labour MP. The margin is such that the SNP (the second party) don't have a realistic chance. So what do I do? Vote Labour just so that I have the satisfaction of voting for the winning candidate, even though I loathe the guy? Or vote Conservative just because they have a bit of a chance of winning overall on English votes, even though they'll be bloody lucky to save their deposit in the constituency in question? Or vote for the party I believe in, and at least contribute to their credibility as an outfit with some solid support?

It's a different equation in every constituency, and only a lucky few have the chance of actually influencing either who their MP is, or who forms the government.

I remember the shock of my first PR vote, at a Euro-election I think, when I suddenly realised that my vote was going to mean something, and that I was actually going to contribute towards putting a candidate of my choice into the parliament. Heady stuff. Once you give people that sort of power, their entire voting behaviour can change and really unexpected things sometimes happen.

Rather than straight PR (by whatever means) I'd like to see STV voting at constituency level. That would allow people to vote for the party they really believed in without throwing away their vote in the event of that party being poorly supported across the board. It might turn up some surprising things, especially with regard to the Lib Dems and the SNP. At the same time, it would retain the link between the MP and the constituency, and as the result wouldn't necessarily be PR across the country it's probable that irretrievably hung parliaments would be avoided.

Sorry, this probably needs a new thread if people are really interested in it, I just think it's a way of making everybody's vote count for more. As it is, everybody has to size up what the demographics are in their own constituency, and accept that they probably have no real influence in the final result.

Rolfe.

Darat · 5th April 2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolfe
...snip...

Darat's point is really impossibly simplistic, which is presumably why he put in the smilie. T

...snip...

Partly but it is also part of my policy of scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't allow back in though apathy that dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags, filthy, vote-stealing gits that is the Conservative party.

Remember the Conservatives? The party that gave us people dying in corridors, people waiting 18 hours for emergency treatment, highest unemployment ever, highest interest rates and highest inflation rates in decades, parents copying pages from their kids books on the office photocopier because the schools couldnâ€™t afford books?

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty.

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Partly but it is also part of my policy of scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't allow back in though apathy that dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags, filthy, vote-stealing gits that is the Conservative party.

Remember the Conservatives? The party that gave us people dying in corridors, people waiting 18 hours for emergency treatment, highest unemployment ever, highest interest rates and highest inflation rates in decades, parents copying pages from their kids books on the office photocopier because the schools couldnâ€™t afford books?

Now doesn't that just beautifully encapsulate the dilemma created by the two-party system, which is virtually inevitable given first-past-the-post voting.

If both of the two parties which have the stranglehold on the electoral system have behaved like complete scumbags, and do so every time they are returned to power, then to follow Jon's path merely gets you turn and turn about scumbags for eternity. Whereas to follow Darat's means that the current bunch of scumbags can do pretty much what it likes and not risk losing office.

Of course, if you follow the proposition that all politicians are scumbags anyway, then it's completely inevitable. And once the scumbags start winning, then that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, as non-scumbags basically wouldn't be caught dead getting involved.

Lose-lose.

Rolfe.

Jon_in_london · 5th April 2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Partly but it is also part of my policy of scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't allow back in though apathy that dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags, filthy, vote-stealing gits that is the Conservative party.

Remember the Conservatives? The party that gave us people dying in corridors, people waiting 18 hours for emergency treatment, highest unemployment ever, highest interest rates and highest inflation rates in decades, parents copying pages from their kids books on the office photocopier because the schools couldnâ€™t afford books?

Vote stealing? Lying? Maybe in isolated cases but they never made a career out of it like Labour has.

And what of Labour prior to the Tories? They abdicated the government of Britain to trade unions. The Tories under Thatcher were the first good idea this country had since the end of WWII. Britian was flat on her back due to Labour mis-management. How many unemployed where they when Thatcher took over? What was the economy like? Where would we be now if Labour had been allowed to continue its policy of doing everyhting that is worst for Britain but best for their red-flag waving scoialist ideiologies? Dependent on IMF loans no doubt. The current economic prosperity is brought about by policies instituted under the Major government and by the independence of the bank of England NOT by Gordon Brown's miraculous economic prescience. Britain is prospering IN SPITE of Labour, not because of it- and lets face it, economic prosperity is the ONLY good thing that Labour has done. They have failed at every other single level and welshed on every promise- with the exception of fox-hunting. Hoo-bloody-ray. But economic prosperity will not last. Already we are slipping down the competitiveness tables. As Labour continue to tax and waste the situation will only get worse. Labour's punishment of those who are prepared to save, work and be self-sufficient and championing of those who lie on their fat pasty arses buying Tennets Super and Lambert and Butler with money other people worked for while reproducing like mad fecking rabbits and getting deeper in debt than previously thought possible is going to catch up with us one day.

/rant.

Rolfe · 5th April 2005, 12:45 PM

Ah, the joys of simultaneous posting!

Rolfe.

Darat · 5th April 2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Vote stealing? Lying? Maybe in isolated cases but they never made a career out of it like Labour has.

Really? Honestly? The Conservatives are the party which had MPs selling questions in the house for cash in brown paper bags for goodness sake! This is the party that had MPs (well ex) and ex Chairmans going to jail for lying and committing perjury!

Labour have been terrible in that they picked up the art of spin before the other two parties but on the whole spin is not lying (although of course it can be).

We even have evidence recently of the lies in the Conservative party - e.g. Howard Flight. (OK we donâ€™t know it is lies but it damn well sounds plausible...)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

And what of Labour prior to the Tories? They abdicated the government of Britain to trade unions.

Labour tore itself to bits and rebuilt a new party after being out of power so long. Many old Labour supporters arenâ€™t too happy with the new Labour party because it junked so much of its past. There is no evidence that the Labour party of today is the same beast it was pre-Kinnock.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

The Tories under Thatcher were the first good idea this country had since the end of WWII. Britian was flat on her back due to Labour mis-management. How many unemployed where they when Thatcher took over?

Curiously between the second world war and Thatcherâ€™s first election victory Labour held power for 17 years and the conservatives for 17 years.

Years 1945-1979
1945 - Lab - 5 years in office
1950 - Lab - 1 year
1951 - Con - 4 years
1955 - Con -4 years
1959 - Con - 5 years
1964 - Lab - 2 years
1966 - Lab - 4 years
1970 - Con - 4 years
1974 - Lab - 5 years

Total years (1945-1979)
Lab - 17 years
Con - 17 years

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

How many unemployed where they when Thatcher took over?

Less then one million, within two terms at least 3 million.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

What was the economy like? Where would we be now if Labour had been allowed to continue its policy of doing everyhting that is worst for Britain but best for their red-flag waving scoialist ideiologies? Dependent on IMF loans no doubt.

Historically you may be right however the Labour party quite a few years ago (i.e. pre 1997) altered its constitution and can no longer be describe as being based on a socialist ideology.

I see no such break from the past with the current Conservative party.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

The current economic prosperity is brought about by policies instituted under the Major government and by the independence of the bank of England NOT by Gordon Brown's miraculous economic prescience. Britain is prospering IN SPITE of Labour, not because of it- and lets face it, economic prosperity is the ONLY good thing that Labour has done.

Bit of a contradiction.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

They have failed at every other single level and welshed on every promise- with the exception of fox-hunting. Hoo-bloody-ray.

They didn't make the Bank of England independent? They didnâ€™t increase spending in schools, hospitals and the police? I must have been having a long dream. A few years ago I paid (privately) for my Mother to have her gall bladder removed because the NHS list was at least 14 months, at the end of last year a relative of the same age had her gallbladder removed (in the same NHS area) after a wait of 4 months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1961522.stm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

But economic prosperity will not last. Already we are slipping down the competitiveness tables. As Labour continue to tax and waste the situation will only get worse. Labour's punishment of those who are prepared to save, work and be self-sufficient and championing of those who lie on their fat pasty arses buying Tennets Super and Lambert and Butler with money other people worked for while reproducing like mad fecking rabbits and getting deeper in debt than previously thought possible is going to catch up with us one day.

/rant.

I'll leave that to one side apart from mentioning it was Thatcher's policies that created the British underclass... after all she was the one who paid out the most to scroungers! ;(

Cleopatra · 5th April 2005, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Edit: Double post.

Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty.

Why don't you admit that you will vote for Sinn Feinn and let this thread die?

5th April 2005, 05:59 AM	#1
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	UK General Election on 5th May - voting intentions? Since I had extreme issues with the earlier poll on this subject (and if had the wrong date anyway), I thought I'd start one of my own. I've tried to include all parties which will be represented in a significant number of seats (thanks, Geni, for the list), apologies if I've omited anyone's favoured choice. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 06:07 AM	#2
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!. Well, that won't last..... Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 06:10 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote...
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:28 AM	#5
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Giz I'm torn. At one point I was thinking about voting Tory (more as an anti-Labour protest over some of their policies than because I think Howard will be one of the great British PM's). There are other parties to vote for to make an anti-Labour protest without lowering yourself that far
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

5th April 2005, 06:31 AM	#6
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	I didn't try it, but I note that the first three parties have come out with the correct colour codes! By the way, that bunch of Yogic Flying twits aren't going to stand again, are they? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 06:20 AM	#4
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,442	I'm torn. At one point I was thinking about voting Tory (more as an anti-Labour protest over some of their policies than because I think Howard will be one of the great British PM's). Then that dmn Catholic Archbishop came on the News about a week ago urging all catholics to vote against Labour (due to their abortion stance). Now I want to vote for Labour to kick the Catholics in the teeth for interfering in politics! Aargh! So many parties to vote against, and only one vote! * Nb; the same would go for any religion jumping into the political fray.

5th April 2005, 06:33 AM	#7
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	I am at the nearest I've ever been for not voting Labour. I believe they have gone too far to the centre/right over the last few years. However I have no evidence that the Conservative party have changed from when they last held power and that will, in my opinion, mean a return to under funding the NHS, under funding state education, under funding the Police, further reducing the value of the state pension and yet more interference in personal liberties. (And if they went back to their old economic policies it would end up meaning spending even more on social security â€“ just like Thatcher and Major had to! Mind you they would probably increase subsidies to the Rover group just like Thatcher did for British Leylandâ€¦) As for increasing money on school dinners for kids, this is the party that brought you "Thatcher the Milk Snatcher"
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:37 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by richardm There are other parties to vote for to make an anti-Labour protest without lowering yourself that far Let's be blunt about this (in England especially) a protest vote from Labour to any other party is a vote for a Conservative government.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:38 AM	#9
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe I didn't try it, but I note that the first three parties have come out with the correct colour codes! By the way, that bunch of Yogic Flying twits aren't going to stand again, are they? Rolfe. Natural Law party? Probably.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:40 AM	#10
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,442	Are you sure Darat? Labour's rhetoric is quite center/right but I would have called them center/left/big govt in practice. Rest assured the Tories have changed: Hague, IDS, Howard. Can you not tell them apart?

5th April 2005, 06:45 AM	#11
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,148	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Let's be blunt about this (in England especially) a protest vote from Labour to any other party is a vote for a Conservative government. Or, more accurately, a Labour government with a smaller majority. Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win?

5th April 2005, 06:48 AM	#12
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by Giz Are you sure Darat? Labour's rhetoric is quite center/right but I would have called them center/left/big govt in practice. I would say no more so then the last Conservative governments. Indeed the Labour government has continued to deregulate areas such as financial services - and don't forget it was a Labour government that gave the Bank of England independence. Quote: Originally posted by Giz Rest assured the Tories have changed: Hague, IDS, Howard. Can you not tell them apart? Er two of them were bald? You'll have to give me a clue...
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:52 AM	#13
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet Or, more accurately, a Labour government with a smaller majority. Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win? It doesn't take that many votes in the UK to change a government. Whilst I donâ€™t think the Conservatives are likely to win, because they are â€œvoted inâ€, I have a terrible and frightening feeling they may win because people wonâ€™t go out and vote for Labour. And by that I mean people who voted last time for Labour wonâ€™t go out and vote for the Conservatives they just wonâ€™t go out and vote.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:53 AM	#14
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,442	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Er two of them were bald? You'll have to give me a clue... Only two of them? (I guess I should have used a smiley...) Howard is a (small) step towards a less follically challenged leadership. And Dilbert teaches us that the taller candidate with better hair will always win... why worry about their policies?

5th April 2005, 06:57 AM	#15
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by Giz Only two of them? (I guess I should have used a smiley...) Howard is a (small) step towards a less follically challenged leadership. And Dilbert teaches us that the taller candidate with better hair will always win... why worry about their policies? Thatâ€™s another good reason to not vote for Mr â€œSomething of the nightâ€. At least Hague and IDS were honest about their baldness, Howard attempts a comb-over rather then admit the truth â€“ heâ€™s already covering up!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 06:58 AM	#16
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet Surely nobody believes the Tories are actually going to win? Well, I'd hope not but I wouldn't like to start counting any chickens just yet. Darat's right - inertia is probably the biggest problem Labour face this time round. I saw Peter Snow at lunchtime and he reckons it's a worryingly small swing to get a hung parliament. Something like 6%. Well, the Labour result in 1997 was 10.2%, so it ain't impossible if things go badly. I see someone has voted Conservative in the poll. Want to discuss what's attractive about 'em to you? This is a politics forum after all! (Edited to add: Although I suppose 1997 was an exceptional year)
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

5th April 2005, 07:04 AM	#17
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!. Well, that won't last..... Probably not 100%, but I should think the SNP are likely to improve on last time. Unless the redrawing of the constituencies has put the kibosh on them. How is the party feeling?
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

5th April 2005, 07:41 AM	#18
Dragon Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,403	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Yippee! I got in so quick the SNP has 100% of the one vote cast!. Well, that won't last..... Rolfe. SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex?
	__________________ "We must favour verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth." Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason

5th April 2005, 07:43 AM	#19
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Quote: Originally posted by richardm Probably not 100%, but I should think the SNP are likely to improve on last time. Unless the redrawing of the constituencies has put the kibosh on them. How is the party feeling? I'm not picking up on rejoicing in the streets quite yet. I think we still haven't quite figured out what to do with the Scottish Parliament, and the lack of apparent effect in dealing with the Labour knuckle-dragging brigade there has people sort of reeling in frustration. Plus of course there is the problem of some people now seeing the SNP as the party you vote for in Scottish elections but not in Westminster elections. It's a strange situation, because policy-wise the SNP looks on the face of it to be the party desired by all those who don't like the direction Labour has taken in recent years, and many of my English friends say they'd vote for the SNP on its general policy stand if they got the chance. However, we still haven't got to grips with the belittling of Scotland and the Scottish people carried out for years by the Westminster parties in Scotland. We're too small, too stupid and too poor to be self-governing, you see. Just like Denmark, you know.... And now of course they point to McConnell and the rest of those neuronally-challenged Holyrood toon cooncillors and say, we told you so. While at the same time I hear bitter complaints in England that "we're ruled by Scots"! I'm no great fan of Gordon Brown, Robin Cook and the rest of them, but they are big hitters, and if we could put people of that calibre into an independent Scottish parliament it would be a different story. I don't expect a landslide this time. Actually, much as I hate the idea of a Conservative government, it would be very interesting to see what happened to Scottish politics with them in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. It's arguable that if we'd got the Scottish parliament in 1979 as we ought to have, the Thatcher years would have delivered independence. Right at the moment though, the hereditary "vote for a gerbil if it's got a red rosette on it" brigade are probably not going to stage a mass revolution. The ingrained class loyalties (plus the effects of decades of their preferred comic, the Daily Record, sneering at the SNP and telling a pack of lies) are likely to rally round if it looks as if the Tories might be making any sort of showing. Still, I'm hoping for a decent result to keep credibility good, and look for a bigger push at the 2007 Holyrood event. Also, I believe Sheridan's lot aren't making much of a showing these days, which helps somewhat. (That's one I didn't put on the ballot, maybe I should, I'll probably get a posse of SSP supporters starting a rival poll!) Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 07:51 AM	#20
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Quote: Originally posted by Dragon SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex? Postal votes are a great invention. (Actually, there was a story.... A few years ago a Scottish-born town councillor in Brighton fell out with his local Labour party and announced that he was leaving and joining the SNP. It was all over the papers that the SNP now had a council seat in Brighton. But they didn't. Unbeknownst to the councillor, there is an active branch of the SNP in London, and the Convener just happened to live in Brighton. (And also to be an ex-Labour party activist.) He tried to phone the guy several times, and even called at his house, explaining who he was and trying to welcome him into the SNP. The man's wife gave him the brush-off and the runaround, and it was perfectly clear that the whole thing had been nothing but a publicity stunt, he'd had no intention at all of joining the SNP, and was astonished to find that there was an active branch on his doorstep.) Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 07:51 AM	#21
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sunny Leith Posts: 6,148	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Also, I believe Sheridan's lot aren't making much of a showing these days, which helps somewhat. (That's one I didn't put on the ballot, maybe I should, I'll probably get a posse of SSP supporters starting a rival poll!) Rolfe. Sheridan has retired to spend more time with his sunbed, so I think the SSP is now down to just one man and a dog. I think the most interesting result would be a Labour majority, but only due to the inclusion of their Scottish MP's. That should bring the West Lothian question into sharp focus.

5th April 2005, 09:14 AM	#22
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	I casted a vote for Planet X just to see the results. So, what about the politics and the agendas behind the elections?
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

5th April 2005, 09:16 AM	#23
Cleopatra Diva Caissa Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens-Greece Posts: 9,272	Jesus Christ!!!!!!!! Labour????Are you going to vote for the man who runs after George W Bush???
	__________________ Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting.~ Mark Twain.

5th April 2005, 09:25 AM	#24
aerocontrols Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 3,445	I'm taking part in a program I heard about on Fox News. I'll be writing concerned letters to undecided British voters to try to help them decide which choice would be best.
	__________________ Misunderestimated in 2000. Unredefeated in 2004. My dog does his tricks. My roomate's dog tries to escape the kitchen. We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. Source

5th April 2005, 10:30 AM	#25
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Dont I feel like the idiot! D'Oh! Anyway- I reckon I will vote Tory. Just to piss of Labour. I dont really like the Tories but they stand the best chance of knocking those filthy, lying, cheating, stinking, dishonest, vote-rigging skunks' cumbags off their perch. Today in the post I received a letter from my local aspiring Labour Party Candidate. Attached was an application form for postal voting. This was my reply: Dear Mr. Khan, Thank you ever so much for writing to me to explain who you are, what you would like to see happen and an application for a postal vote. I assume the latter is to allow some good-old Birmingham Labour Party style vote-rigging and electoral fraud? Thanks very much but I think I may pass on that one and go and vote in person -(for the Torys, just to spite you)- to make sure that you dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags never get your filthy, vote-stealing paws on anything that bears my my signature. Regards, Jon_in_london.
	__________________ Radicals and Racists Don't point your finger at me I'm a small town white boy Just tryin' to make ends meet Don't need your religion Don't watch that much T.V. Just makin' my livin', baby Well that's enough for me

5th April 2005, 11:06 AM	#27
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Re: UK General Election on 5th May - voting intentions? Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe Since I had extreme issues with the earlier poll on this subject (and if had the wrong date anyway), I thought I'd start one of my own. I've tried to include all parties which will be represented in a significant number of seats (thanks, Geni, for the list), apologies if I've omited anyone's favoured choice. Rolfe. UKIP and the greens do't have any seats at westminster nore are they likely to get any. Oh and I beat you to it with the closest I could get to a comprehensive list http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...threadid=54975

5th April 2005, 11:08 AM	#28
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Edit: Double post. Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty. Judging by thier campain "it's the economy stupid".

5th April 2005, 11:18 AM	#29
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by Dragon SNP? - Have they got a chance in Sussex? Well Basingstoke is currently represented by a member of the DUP

5th April 2005, 11:21 AM	#30
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe I don't expect a landslide this time. Actually, much as I hate the idea of a Conservative government, it would be very interesting to see what happened to Scottish politics with them in Westminster and Labour in Holyrood. It's arguable that if we'd got the Scottish parliament in 1979 as we ought to have, the Thatcher years would have delivered independence. I'm not sure it would be techinical posible to pump the oil out of the north sea at that rate.

5th April 2005, 11:23 AM	#31
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote... Not in either of the places where I live (although in one of them any vote is a wasted vote.

5th April 2005, 11:28 AM	#32
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,279	Blair's Labor (OK - "Labour" - sheesh ...) Party expected to win third term.
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

5th April 2005, 11:46 AM	#33
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Re: Re: UK General Election on 5th May - voting intentions? Quote: Originally posted by geni UKIP and the greens do't have any seats at westminster nore are they likely to get any. No, but they do have significant serious support and will appear on a lot of ballot papers. Whereas some of the others are really fringe, or just single-seat protest movements. Or raving loonies (Natural Law). I did wonder if I should have included the SSP (which I don't think you did), but Sheridan has left them and they seem to be little more than a rump. I'll be surprised if they can field more than a handful of candidates. In spite of holding a couple of Holyrood seats, which makes them a lot more serious than some of the others. We could argue the toss till the cows come home, but I haven't had any complaints yet about anyone feeling genuinely disenfranchised by this set of choices. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 12:09 PM	#34
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Just a quick point for everyone - remember a vote for anyone but Conservative or Labour is a wasted vote... Quote: Originally posted by geni *Not in either of the places where I live (although in one of them any* vote is a wasted vote.** This is getting on to the question of the two-party system and its perpetuation by first-part-the-post elections. Maybe it would be better to start a new thread if we're going to have an in-depth discussion about proportional representation, but it is a relevant point. Darat's point is really impossibly simplistic, which is presumably why he put in the smilie. This is because it ignores the question of the different political demographics of different constituencies. Suppose you live in a constituency which is a Labour/Lib-Dem marginal. You hate Labour. Is a Lib-Dem vote wasted because the Lib-Dems are vanishingly unlikely to form a government? No, because that vote may keep out a Labour candidate, and so contribute to a Conservative victory, even though an actual Conservative vote would be wasted. Tactical voting lives. To be brutally honest, the votes of most of us count for diddly-squat because we live in "safe" constituencies. So, I know that the constituency I vote in will return a Labour MP. The margin is such that the SNP (the second party) don't have a realistic chance. So what do I do? Vote Labour just so that I have the satisfaction of voting for the winning candidate, even though I loathe the guy? Or vote Conservative just because they have a bit of a chance of winning overall on English votes, even though they'll be bloody lucky to save their deposit in the constituency in question? Or vote for the party I believe in, and at least contribute to their credibility as an outfit with some solid support? It's a different equation in every constituency, and only a lucky few have the chance of actually influencing either who their MP is, or who forms the government. I remember the shock of my first PR vote, at a Euro-election I think, when I suddenly realised that my vote was going to mean something, and that I was actually going to contribute towards putting a candidate of my choice into the parliament. Heady stuff. Once you give people that sort of power, their entire voting behaviour can change and really unexpected things sometimes happen. Rather than straight PR (by whatever means) I'd like to see STV voting at constituency level. That would allow people to vote for the party they really believed in without throwing away their vote in the event of that party being poorly supported across the board. It might turn up some surprising things, especially with regard to the Lib Dems and the SNP. At the same time, it would retain the link between the MP and the constituency, and as the result wouldn't necessarily be PR across the country it's probable that irretrievably hung parliaments would be avoided. Sorry, this probably needs a new thread if people are really interested in it, I just think it's a way of making everybody's vote count for more. As it is, everybody has to size up what the demographics are in their own constituency, and accept that they probably have no real influence in the final result. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

5th April 2005, 12:27 PM	#35
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Quote: Originally posted by Rolfe ...snip... Darat's point is really impossibly simplistic, which is presumably why he put in the smilie. T ...snip... Partly but it is also part of my policy of scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't allow back in though apathy that dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags, filthy, vote-stealing gits that is the Conservative party. Remember the Conservatives? The party that gave us people dying in corridors, people waiting 18 hours for emergency treatment, highest unemployment ever, highest interest rates and highest inflation rates in decades, parents copying pages from their kids books on the office photocopier because the schools couldnâ€™t afford books?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th April 2005, 12:43 PM	#36
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Cleo, I also just cant understand how anyone can possibly vote for Labour. When a government misbehaves- as Labour has- you throw them out at the next election. To vote for Labour is to neglect your democrtic duty. Quote: Originally posted by Darat Partly but it is also part of my policy of scaring the bejesus out of people so they don't allow back in though apathy that dishonest bunch of lying, cheating scumbags, filthy, vote-stealing gits that is the Conservative party. Remember the Conservatives? The party that gave us people dying in corridors, people waiting 18 hours for emergency treatment, highest unemployment ever, highest interest rates and highest inflation rates in decades, parents copying pages from their kids books on the office photocopier because the schools couldnâ€™t afford books? Now doesn't that just beautifully encapsulate the dilemma created by the two-party system, which is virtually inevitable given first-past-the-post voting. If both of the two parties which have the stranglehold on the electoral system have behaved like complete scumbags, and do so every time they are returned to power, then to follow Jon's path merely gets you turn and turn about scumbags for eternity. Whereas to follow Darat's means that the current bunch of scumbags can do pretty much what it likes and not risk losing office. Of course, if you follow the proposition that all politicians are scumbags anyway, then it's completely inevitable. And once the scumbags start winning, then that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, as non-scumbags basically wouldn't be caught dead getting involved. Lose-lose. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.