Was Jesus a secularist?

Robin · 7th April 2005, 06:06 PM

There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority.

Incidentally he apparently hated the idea of public showy prayers of the type that are favoured by religious politicians and political theists.

More recently church-state separation was championed (in the 19th century) by the dissenting tradition of the Christian Church (Methodists, Baptists and so on).

And yet to hear Christians speak these days you would think that it was a purely atheist cause.

TragicMonkey · 7th April 2005, 06:11 PM

They speak of separation when they don't have a chance at power. They speak of glorious holy kingdoms when they do.

If the majority religion in the US was Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam, you can bet the Christian right would be talking up a storm about the benefits of secular government.

EdipisReks · 7th April 2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
They speak of separation when they don't have a chance at power. They speak of glorious holy kingdoms when they do.

If the majority religion in the US was Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam, you can bet the Christian right would be talking up a storm about the benefits of secular government.

yep.

Rob Lister · 7th April 2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EdipisReks
yep.

Yep squared.

ceo_esq · 8th April 2005, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority.

It's difficult to say that Jesus "made it clear" that he supported an idea that is not all that clearly delineated to begin with. There are many, many shades of separation of Church and State. Since an absolute identity of Church and State is hard to conceive, presumably nearly everyone supports some degree of distinction between the two. Which version did Jesus support? And even the line about rendering unto Caesar is beset by ambiguities. Jesus' words strongly suggest that he was authorizing the payment of the tax in question, but on on the other hand we're left with a further inquiry on which the whole problem hinges: what is Caesar's, and what is God's? I don't think Jesus, if he actually said such things in the first place, was being clear at all.

Likewise, "My kingdom is not of this world" is susceptible - let's be honest - to at least a handful of other reasonable exegeses besides "I hereby disavow all temporal authority" (which statement is, itself, of less than crystal clarity).

Like too many things in the Gospels, these words raise as many questions as they allegedly answer.

kedo1981 · 9th April 2005, 04:47 AM

Was Jesus a secularist?

no

no such person!

was Santa Claus a commie?

Tony · 9th April 2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kedo1981
was Santa Claus a commie?

He does wear red...

Rob Lister · 9th April 2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
He does wear red...

Santa is most certainly a commie. Takes stuff from people that work for a living (parents) and gives it freely to those that don't (kids). Santa is worse than a commie because usually the parent has the added task of putting the stuff together...at night...without sleep...

Santa sucks.

bluess · 9th April 2005, 02:24 PM

In the weekly newspaper "India Abroad" there was an article some months ago written by a Christian living in a Hindu community. She expressed her dilemma regarding using the new and very beautiful state library that had been built. Her concern? In front of the library was a very large statue of Saraswati (the Hindu goddess of knowledge) and the dedication service had included references to this goddess.

I have to admit that my first response upon reading this was a not-very-nice snort of laughter - finally, the shoe on the other foot!

Beerina · 11th April 2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Santa is most certainly a commie. Takes stuff from people that work for a living (parents) and gives it freely to those that don't (kids). Santa is worse than a commie because usually the parent has the added task of putting the stuff together...at night...without sleep...

Santa sucks.

Much worse than that.

Like Communism, Santa presumes tons of people who will work very, very hard to produce things for other people. And they will do so joyously. These items which appear almost magically (to an outside observer, but not to a sweating elf) are then to be handed out for free to everyone all over the world who cannot produce, but certainly need the items.

And Santa's operation is just as realistic as idealistic Communism. Just don't look under the ice for dissenting elves.

Beerina · 11th April 2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluess
Her concern? In front of the library was a very large statue of Saraswati (the Hindu goddess of knowledge) and the dedication service had included references to this goddess.

I wish there were a real Goddess of Knowledge, so I could pray to her, starting with learning from her all things varied of a sexual nature...

clarsct · 12th April 2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority.

Incidentally he apparently hated the idea of public showy prayers of the type that are favoured by religious politicians and political theists.

More recently church-state separation was championed (in the 19th century) by the dissenting tradition of the Christian Church (Methodists, Baptists and so on).

And yet to hear Christians speak these days you would think that it was a purely atheist cause.

That last sentence....

It may be true that some christians think that, but in reality the people who framed our Constituion were primarily Deists.
I also note the Constitution never specifically names God or any god.
The Tragic Monkey had a point. They insisted upon the seperation because:
A) they weren't necessarily in the majority
B) Their collective arses smarted from being kicked out of England, Holland and just about anywhere else..
C) My sig...

bluess · 12th April 2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
I wish there were a real Goddess of Knowledge, so I could pray to her, starting with learning from her all things varied of a sexual nature...

Hmmm ... this link pulled up a listing for 'Cabin Boy'.

7th April 2005, 06:06 PM	#1
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Was Jesus a secularist? There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority. Incidentally he apparently hated the idea of public showy prayers of the type that are favoured by religious politicians and political theists. More recently church-state separation was championed (in the 19th century) by the dissenting tradition of the Christian Church (Methodists, Baptists and so on). And yet to hear Christians speak these days you would think that it was a purely atheist cause.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541

7th April 2005, 06:11 PM	#2
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,112	They speak of separation when they don't have a chance at power. They speak of glorious holy kingdoms when they do. If the majority religion in the US was Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam, you can bet the Christian right would be talking up a storm about the benefits of secular government.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

7th April 2005, 06:53 PM	#3
EdipisReks Custom Title Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The 'Nati Posts: 1,952	Quote: Originally posted by TragicMonkey They speak of separation when they don't have a chance at power. They speak of glorious holy kingdoms when they do. If the majority religion in the US was Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam, you can bet the Christian right would be talking up a storm about the benefits of secular government. yep.
	__________________ "Candy to rot your teeth. Bible to rot your brain." --EvilDave (7-24-2003) "I read the Book Of Mormon once. Wasn't it about Uma Thurman, um, thrumming a Theremin?" --epepke (9-22-2004)

8th April 2005, 05:51 AM	#5
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	Re: Was Jesus a secularist? Quote: Originally posted by Robin There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority. It's difficult to say that Jesus "made it clear" that he supported an idea that is not all that clearly delineated to begin with. There are many, many shades of separation of Church and State. Since an absolute identity of Church and State is hard to conceive, presumably nearly everyone supports some degree of distinction between the two. Which version did Jesus support? And even the line about rendering unto Caesar is beset by ambiguities. Jesus' words strongly suggest that he was authorizing the payment of the tax in question, but on on the other hand we're left with a further inquiry on which the whole problem hinges: what is Caesar's, and what is God's? I don't think Jesus, if he actually said such things in the first place, was being clear at all. Likewise, "My kingdom is not of this world" is susceptible - let's be honest - to at least a handful of other reasonable exegeses besides "I hereby disavow all temporal authority" (which statement is, itself, of less than crystal clarity). Like too many things in the Gospels, these words raise as many questions as they allegedly answer.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

9th April 2005, 04:47 AM	#6
kedo1981 Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: ohio Posts: 2,083	Was Jesus a secularist? no no such person! was Santa Claus a commie?
	__________________ "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21) I readily admit I don’t know enough to say for sure that there is no God. But I do know enough so say that anyone who claims to know the mind and will of a being such as God is a liar. I have no problem with Jesus, but his fan club sucks!

7th April 2005, 07:02 PM	#4
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Quote: Originally posted by EdipisReks yep. Yep squared.

9th April 2005, 12:54 PM	#7
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Quote: Originally posted by kedo1981 was Santa Claus a commie? He does wear red...
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

9th April 2005, 02:11 PM	#8
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Quote: Originally posted by Tony *He does* wear red...** Santa is most certainly a commie. Takes stuff from people that work for a living (parents) and gives it freely to those that don't (kids). Santa is worse than a commie because usually the parent has the added task of putting the stuff together...at night...without sleep... Santa sucks.

9th April 2005, 02:24 PM	#9
bluess Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dithering between book choices in a shop somewhere. Posts: 3,431	In the weekly newspaper "India Abroad" there was an article some months ago written by a Christian living in a Hindu community. She expressed her dilemma regarding using the new and very beautiful state library that had been built. Her concern? In front of the library was a very large statue of Saraswati (the Hindu goddess of knowledge) and the dedication service had included references to this goddess. I have to admit that my first response upon reading this was a not-very-nice snort of laughter - finally, the shoe on the other foot!
	__________________ 'Lord Emsworth, that amiable but bone-headed peer, stood at the window drooping like a wet sock.' -PG Wodehouse, The Crime Wave at Blandings

11th April 2005, 04:23 PM	#10
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Quote: Originally posted by Rob Lister Santa is most certainly a commie. Takes stuff from people that work for a living (parents) and gives it freely to those that don't (kids). Santa is worse than a commie because usually the parent has the added task of putting the stuff together...at night...without sleep... Santa sucks. Much worse than that. Like Communism, Santa presumes tons of people who will work very, very hard to produce things for other people. And they will do so joyously. These items which appear almost magically (to an outside observer, but not to a sweating elf) are then to be handed out for free to everyone all over the world who cannot produce, but certainly need the items. And Santa's operation is just as realistic as idealistic Communism. Just don't look under the ice for dissenting elves.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

11th April 2005, 04:26 PM	#11
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Quote: Originally posted by bluess Her concern? In front of the library was a very large statue of Saraswati (the Hindu goddess of knowledge) and the dedication service had included references to this goddess. I wish there were a real Goddess of Knowledge, so I could pray to her, starting with learning from her all things varied of a sexual nature...
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

12th April 2005, 12:09 AM	#12
clarsct Humor Impaired Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Cultural Desert Posts: 4,910	Re: Was Jesus a secularist? Quote: Originally posted by Robin There are two statements that Jesus made in his lifetime that made it clear that he supported the idea of Church - State separation. When asked if it was right to pay taxes to the occupying authority Jesus said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, render to God that which is God's". He also said "My kingdom is not of this world", disavowing any temporal authority. Incidentally he apparently hated the idea of public showy prayers of the type that are favoured by religious politicians and political theists. More recently church-state separation was championed (in the 19th century) by the dissenting tradition of the Christian Church (Methodists, Baptists and so on). And yet to hear Christians speak these days you would think that it was a purely atheist cause. That last sentence.... It may be true that some christians think that, but in reality the people who framed our Constituion were primarily Deists. I also note the Constitution never specifically names God or any god. The Tragic Monkey had a point. They insisted upon the seperation because: A) they weren't necessarily in the majority B) Their collective arses smarted from being kicked out of England, Holland and just about anywhere else.. C) My sig...
	__________________ When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics. Oh nonsense. Still not hugging you. -Kiless Forum Tosser and Skirt Chaser

12th April 2005, 08:00 AM	#13
bluess Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dithering between book choices in a shop somewhere. Posts: 3,431	Quote: Originally posted by Beerina I wish there were a real Goddess of Knowledge, so I could pray to her, starting with learning from her all things varied of a sexual nature... Hmmm ... this link pulled up a listing for 'Cabin Boy'.
	__________________ 'Lord Emsworth, that amiable but bone-headed peer, stood at the window drooping like a wet sock.' -PG Wodehouse, The Crime Wave at Blandings