Biology professor draws fire for not recommending creationist students

JSFolk · 30th January 2003, 09:46 AM

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/30/prof.htm

Quote:

Dini, an associate professor who has been at Texas Tech for 10 years, said Wednesday he didn't know about a federal inquiry. He referred questions about his policy to a Web page that outlines it.
The Web page advises students seeking a recommendation to be prepared to answer the question: "How do you think the human species originated?"
"If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences," Dini writes.

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 09:49 AM

Interesting. Dini is asking about beliefs and not about knowledge, but this is for a personal recommendation, not a grade. Very complicated, but I think I would side with Dini.

FFed · 30th January 2003, 09:57 AM

I agree with the Professor. I would not recommend anyone for a science class that refuses to accept proven facts.

JSFolk · 30th January 2003, 10:06 AM

What I think is going to be very interesting here is that the creationists are apparently going to be arguing that creationism is a personal religious view, and not in any way a scientific hypothesis or theory. This will make it kinda hard for them to contend that it should be taught in science classrooms, no?

Pyrrho · 30th January 2003, 10:30 AM

Also here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in538565.shtml

Quote:

"It's a theory. You read about it in textbooks. I could explain the process, maybe how some people say it happens, but I could not have said ... I believe in it," Spradling said Wednesday. "I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science."

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Interesting. Dini is asking about beliefs and not about knowledge, but this is for a personal recommendation, not a grade. Very complicated, but I think I would side with Dini.

This is not complicated at all. "Letters of Recommendation," by definition, reflect the opinions of the letter writer. In fact, when schools ask for letters of recommendation for application, they absolutely want the opinions of those who know the students to assess their probability for success. That's the whole purpose.

The professor does not believe that students who deny evolution have the capability to be the top scientists they need to in order to be successful doctors. If he were to write a letter, that's what it would say. "I recommend that you do not accept this person into medical school." A single comment like that will blow any chances of a student getting into med school. Bad recommendation letters happen, but they are rare.

Academic freedom prohibits the university from doing anything about this, thankfully. He can't be forced to write letters for anyone, and he cannot be forced what to say when he writes letters. It's a total non-issue.

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pyrrho2000
"It's a theory. You read about it in textbooks. I could explain the process, maybe how some people say it happens, but I could not have said ... I believe in it," Spradling said Wednesday. "I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science."

Isn't that great?

If it were me, I'd write the kid a letter:

"He appears to be incapable of understanding concepts, or making simple deductions based on observation. This is not a person I would want diagnosing my diseases."

Occasional Chemist · 30th January 2003, 10:47 AM

From the article:

Quote:

"Students are being denied recommendations not because of their competence in understanding evolution, but solely because of their personal religious beliefs," said Kelly Shackelford, chief counsel for the institute.

I guess the professor would have been better off. legally speaking, saying that "I can't write you a recommendation because you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny"?

Three cheers for a prof with some integrity!

Torlack · 30th January 2003, 10:51 AM

You know, this is a very hard question.

I am very torn. I think the prof. is exercising his personal beliefs as to what would make a good student. However, he might find himself in trouble since it involves religion and could be tied to civil rights.

Occasional Chemist · 30th January 2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torlack
You know, this is a very hard question.

No it isn't. This is not about a grade - it's about a personal recommedation. A student is not entitled to one of these upon completion of a class.

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torlack
You know, this is a very hard question.

I am very torn. I think the prof. is exercising his personal beliefs as to what would make a good student. However, he might find himself in trouble since it involves religion and could be tied to civil rights.

How so?

Here's his statement:

"How do you think the human species originated?"

"If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences," Dini writes."

What has he said that violates anyone's rights? He says nothing about anyone's religion. Only about their views on science.

Houngan · 30th January 2003, 11:31 AM

Exactly what pgwenthold said. If one of the students can offer a scientific basis for their belief in creationism, he'll be glad to write them a letter of recommendation.

Also, there is not a branch of natural science, ESPECIALLY Biology, that does not hinge utterly on the concepts of evolution and deep time. To have earned a degree in Biology and still deny everything you have learned is a dangerous example of poor thinking.

H.

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 11:35 AM

An excellent point. He never insists that the scientific method they come up with has to be Evolution, only that they accept a scientific answer. (Of course Evolution is the ONLY scientific answer, but that;s another deal)

Megalodon · 30th January 2003, 11:36 AM

Well, I think the Prof has all the right to deny a reccomendation letter to someone that he thinks unfit to be a science.
And I for one wouldn't want to be treated by a creationist. Only their god knows which other scientific theories they don't believe in.

"Well doctor, what antibiotic should we use on this patient?"

"ANTIBIOTIC!!!... nah, call me a priest, it's time for a little exorcism..."

Blue Monk · 30th January 2003, 11:38 AM

Aw this is a slam-dunk!

Go, Dini go!

Don’t let the fundies shove you around!

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
An excellent point. He never insists that the scientific method they come up with has to be Evolution, only that they accept a scientific answer. (Of course Evolution is the ONLY scientific answer, but that;s another deal)

The beauty of what he has done here is that claims of "religious bias" contradict any claims that creationism is scientific.

As JSFolk mentions above, you can't have it both ways. If they are claiming religious persecution, then they are admitting that creationism is a religious belief.

Exhibit A for the defense.

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megalodon
Well, I think the Prof has all the right to deny a reccomendation letter to someone that he thinks unfit to be a science.

The only grounds they might be able to claim is that he denied a letter on the basis of their religion.

But like I said, if you are a creationist, this is not the guy you want writing your letter for you. He is doing them a favor by telling them up front, don't even ask. Any letter he would write for them would do more harm than good.

hgc · 30th January 2003, 11:48 AM

As a question of law, can the plaintiff claim religious bias even if they claim that it isn't a religious belief? What I mean is, maybe they can claim that the professor is discriminating based on HIS belief that creationism is a religious belief, even if it isn't.

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hgc
As a question of law, can the plaintiff claim religious bias even if they claim that it isn't a religious belief? What I mean is, maybe they can claim that the professor is discriminating based on HIS belief that creationism is a religious belief, even if it isn't.

The simple argument back is that he doesn't believe the student will be a good doctor because the student adopts a preconceived opinion and is unwilling to reconsider that opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

That's not a good approach to use when making diagnoses.

If Dini were to write that in a letter, the only way the guy gets into a med school is by volunteering for clinical trials.

IOW, it's not really religion that he is discriminating against, it is the lousy analytical skills that result in the belief in creationism.

Torlack · 30th January 2003, 12:10 PM

Some of these arguments used to defend the prof are they same type of back door arguments used to discriminate against African Americans. Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in.

I happen to agree with the prof. But I also question his motives.

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torlack
Some of these arguments used to defend the prof are they same type of back door arguments used to discriminate against African Americans. Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in.

I happen to agree with the prof. But I also question his motives.

Are you suggesting that belief in creationism is genetic?

Occasional Chemist · 30th January 2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Torlack
Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in.

In addition to the "genetic" point that pg made, ...

The prof's not saying that to get a recommendation letter, you need to be exactly 5'11", named "Bob", and drive a green 1995 Chevy Cavalier LS. He's saying that to get a recommendation from him for further studies in biological sciences, you must be able to apply scientific thinking to biology.

Surely you see the difference.

With respect to this student, it's as if I were to say: "I can't ice skate. In fact, I'm unwilling to learn to ice skate. Write me a recommendation to play in the NHL."

pgwenthold · 30th January 2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist

With respect to this student, it's as if I were to say: "I can't ice skate. In fact, I'm unwilling to learn to ice skate. Write me a recommendation to play in the NHL."

Or how about another example:

"I'm a baptist and don't approve of dancing, and I've never learned to dance. Can you write me a recommendation to get into the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders?"

"Sure, I know what dancing is and have seen the steps outlined in textbooks, but I don't see what that has to do with being a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader."

JSFolk · 30th January 2003, 12:44 PM

More reporting...

http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725

Quote:

I said at the outset that there was both more and less to this case than meets the eye. There is less in the sense that Micah Spradling appears never to have confronted Michael Dini. According to Liberty Legal Institute's staff attorney, on reading Dini's requirements Spradling responded, "I'll never be able to affirm that I believe human evolution is true. My faith prohibits that." Evidently, rather than make his feelings known to Professor Dini, Spradling dropped out of Texas Tech altogether, transferred to Lubbock Christian University, a private institution in the same city, and began planning his lawsuit.

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JSFolk
More reporting...

http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725
"I'll never be able to affirm that I believe human evolution is true."

Repeat of a key point: Dini's list of criteria did not mention evolution. Spradling is the one who mentions it. This is a clear indication tha Spradling understands that Evolution is the scientific answer, and he feels obligated to reject Science.

Another point: The legal @sshole who will represent Spradling is trying to portray a tenured professorship as a "government official". No dice. They should clearly lose this one on grounds clearly stated in the articles.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 30th January 2003, 01:20 PM

Hey Dr. Professor, my religion tells me that women are inferior to men and are only good as sex objects. Could you write me a recommendation now that I've completed my Feminist Studies degree? Thanks a bunch.

~~ Paul

Fade · 30th January 2003, 01:30 PM

Maybe, possibly, in some sense if this student approached the professor and had a long talk and the professor started lecturing him and abusing his religious beliefs.. MAYBE then he would have a case.

But, quitting school, running ot another school, and THEN suing him? What?

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade
Maybe, possibly, in some sense if this student approached the professor and had a long talk and the professor started lecturing him and abusing his religious beliefs.. MAYBE then he would have a case.

But, quitting school, running ot another school, and THEN suing him? What?

Maybe he was waiting for a Bush appointee to take the bench.

fishbob · 30th January 2003, 01:48 PM

So this guy Spradling wants to be a doctor but is unwilling to accept the scientific process as it relates to the origen of humans.

What kind of doctor would this guy be? Would he bother to keep up with the latest research findings? Would he be able to hypothesize and test and evaluate findings to diagnose diseases?

Or would he be one of those doctors that writes prescriptions based only on what the pharmaceutical companies tell him? Or what his Tarot cards tell him? Maybe recommend that the patients chase their pills down with a little Penta water?

How many lives has Prof Dini saved if he is responsible for keeping Spradling out of medical school? One less witch doctor bilking the public - Thanks Prof Dini.

CurtC · 30th January 2003, 01:59 PM

For once, I'm proud to be a Texas Tech graduate.

I like the NHL analogy. The one I thought about in comparison is "I don't believe atoms exist, but could you, Mr Chemistry professor, write me a letter to be accepted into a drug research program?"

corplinx · 30th January 2003, 02:01 PM

Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science).

However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles.

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science).

However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles.

Did you actually read the article?

The professor is not pushing evolution. He is asking that recommendees know and accept a scientific explanation to the question of human origin. The word "evolution" does not appear, except in the student's response.

I.e. the student acknowledges that evolution is the only scientific answer, and that he therefore rejects science.

corplinx · 30th January 2003, 02:20 PM

Yes I read it, it seemed to almost be a loaded question though. I could be wrong (probably am). I do maintain though that he could could write letters for whoever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted. I think the student doesn't show much character for making a todo.

arcticpenguin · 30th January 2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Yes I read it, it seemed to almost be a loaded question though.

It is loaded in that Science has a clear answer to the question. Would a geophysics professor be justified in refusing a letter to a student who believed in a Flat Earth, and wanted to study geophysics at the graduate level?

Phaycops · 30th January 2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
I could be wrong (probably am).

[nodding] Yep, yep you are. The question, again, had NOTHING to do with evolution, in no way implied that religious beliefs would mean no recommendation, and the student never even tried to get a recommendation, prefering instead to transfer to another school and sue the professor. Who, mind you, he never talked to. There is no "loaded question," there is nothing whatsoever in the disclaimer that even comes close to mentioning religion. Sigh.

Quote:

"I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science."

Gaah! GAAH! Get that guy AWAY from medical schools, please!

30th January 2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science).

However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles.

I think you greatly misunderstand the stakes here, as well as the underlying issues. There is no dispute in biology that evolution did occur. None. All the specifics of the mechanisms are still being worked out, but that has nothing do with the established fact of evolution, as well as the general theoretical approach.

Fundamentalism has attempted to hi-jack science, and implied that creationism is an equally scientific explanation. It is not. Creationism shows none of the substance and only the most superficial form of science. It has made no progress, offers no means for arriving at truth. It starts with the "truth" and works backwards from there.

It is the duty of a professor of physics to not recommend a physics student who refuses to accept relativity. Or a cosmology student who claims the universe is only 11,000 years old. Or a geologist who claims radio-dating is farcical. They haven't learned the material. They don't understand the basic scientific approach. It is equally the duty of any professor to hear out a student in any of these areas who refutes any of these fundamentals with clear, evidence-based reasoning.

Now is this important for medicine? Do you want a doctor who can't tell the difference between science and nonsense? Who would offer you colloidal silver, antibiotics or a tap on the head with a talisman from Xanadu? Who didn't understand the differences between the claims for each of those? Or who didn't believe that overprescribing antibiotics could lead to further evolution of antibiotic-resistant superbugs? That that resistance can be passed from the specific disease organism in his patient to other types of disease organisms?

We need more professors who understand the stakes and more universities that stand by them.

Cheers,

edthedoc · 31st January 2003, 01:50 AM

Why can't people accept responsibility for their own religious beliefs rather than using them as an excuse. The guy hasn't been forced to believe in the creationist theory: it was his choice to believe in it and he should accept the consequences of his actions.

It is so child-like to blame someone else for his problems. He needs to get a life and some common sense, and a different career.

Hazelip · 31st January 2003, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science).

However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles.

Wrong. The professor never lays a claim to Darwinian theory. You are making an assumption, just as the student did.

If a student happens to think an alternate theory has more credibility than Darwin's, and can prove it, he would get a recommendation letter.

We are not talking at all about beliefs. We are talking about a question of what a student thinks is true. I'm disturbed by how many people here have read that a question about what a student thinks is the same as asking what that student believes. They are not the same. Clinging to the misconception that thinking and believing are one in the same has led to great confusion of issues...

Hazelip · 31st January 2003, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edthedoc
Why can't people accept responsibility for their own religious beliefs rather than using them as an excuse. The guy hasn't been forced to believe in the creationist theory: it was his choice to believe in it and he should accept the consequences of his actions.

Because people who disagree with fundies are still supposed to make them feel comfortable expressing these views all the time, everywhere they go. We aren't supposed to be able to express our views, founded in fact, critical thought, logic, and observation, because it makes them uncomfortable.

Their comfort and peace of mind is obviously more important than our search for scientific truth...

arcticpenguin · 31st January 2003, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillHoyt

It is the duty of a professor of physics to not recommend a physics student who refuses to accept relativity. Or a cosmology student who claims the universe is only 11,000 years old.

I should say not! Everyone knows the universe is only 6000 years old.

Evolution is not the cherry on top of the sundae of biology. It is the whole sundae; the meat and potatoes too.

30th January 2003, 09:46 AM	#1
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 397	Biology professor draws fire for not recommending creationist students http://www.boston.com/news/daily/30/prof.htm Quote: Dini, an associate professor who has been at Texas Tech for 10 years, said Wednesday he didn't know about a federal inquiry. He referred questions about his policy to a Web page that outlines it. The Web page advises students seeking a recommendation to be prepared to answer the question: "How do you think the human species originated?" "If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences," Dini writes.

30th January 2003, 09:49 AM	#2
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Interesting. Dini is asking about beliefs and not about knowledge, but this is for a personal recommendation, not a grade. Very complicated, but I think I would side with Dini.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 10:30 AM	#5
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	Also here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in538565.shtml Quote: "It's a theory. You read about it in textbooks. I could explain the process, maybe how some people say it happens, but I could not have said ... I believe in it," Spradling said Wednesday. "I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science."
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	__________________ The Skeptics Society \| The Skeptics Society Forum \| Skepticality Promoting SCIENCE and CRITICAL THINKING

30th January 2003, 10:38 AM	#6
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin Interesting. Dini is asking about beliefs and not about knowledge, but this is for a personal recommendation, not a grade. Very complicated, but I think I would side with Dini. This is not complicated at all. "Letters of Recommendation," by definition, reflect the opinions of the letter writer. In fact, when schools ask for letters of recommendation for application, they absolutely want the opinions of those who know the students to assess their probability for success. That's the whole purpose. The professor does not believe that students who deny evolution have the capability to be the top scientists they need to in order to be successful doctors. If he were to write a letter, that's what it would say. "I recommend that you do not accept this person into medical school." A single comment like that will blow any chances of a student getting into med school. Bad recommendation letters happen, but they are rare. Academic freedom prohibits the university from doing anything about this, thankfully. He can't be forced to write letters for anyone, and he cannot be forced what to say when he writes letters. It's a total non-issue.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 10:41 AM	#7
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by pyrrho2000 "It's a theory. You read about it in textbooks. I could explain the process, maybe how some people say it happens, but I could not have said ... I believe in it," Spradling said Wednesday. "I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science." Isn't that great? If it were me, I'd write the kid a letter: "He appears to be incapable of understanding concepts, or making simple deductions based on observation. This is not a person I would want diagnosing my diseases."
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 09:57 AM	#3
FFed Muse Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Smithers, BC Posts: 888	I agree with the Professor. I would not recommend anyone for a science class that refuses to accept proven facts.

30th January 2003, 10:06 AM	#4
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 397	What I think is going to be very interesting here is that the creationists are apparently going to be arguing that creationism is a personal religious view, and not in any way a scientific hypothesis or theory. This will make it kinda hard for them to contend that it should be taught in science classrooms, no?

30th January 2003, 10:47 AM	#8
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	From the article: Quote: "Students are being denied recommendations not because of their competence in understanding evolution, but solely because of their personal religious beliefs," said Kelly Shackelford, chief counsel for the institute. I guess the professor would have been better off. legally speaking, saying that "I can't write you a recommendation because you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny"? Three cheers for a prof with some integrity!
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	__________________ Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

30th January 2003, 10:51 AM	#9
Torlack Thinker Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 130	You know, this is a very hard question. I am very torn. I think the prof. is exercising his personal beliefs as to what would make a good student. However, he might find himself in trouble since it involves religion and could be tied to civil rights.
Torlack Thinker Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 130

30th January 2003, 10:57 AM	#10
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	Quote: Originally posted by Torlack You know, this is a very hard question. No it isn't. This is not about a grade - it's about a personal recommedation. A student is not entitled to one of these upon completion of a class.
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	__________________ Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

30th January 2003, 11:00 AM	#11
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Torlack You know, this is a very hard question. I am very torn. I think the prof. is exercising his personal beliefs as to what would make a good student. However, he might find himself in trouble since it involves religion and could be tied to civil rights. How so? Here's his statement: "How do you think the human species originated?" "If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences," Dini writes." What has he said that violates anyone's rights? He says nothing about anyone's religion. Only about their views on science.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 11:31 AM	#12
Houngan Scholar Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 116	Exactly what pgwenthold said. If one of the students can offer a scientific basis for their belief in creationism, he'll be glad to write them a letter of recommendation. Also, there is not a branch of natural science, ESPECIALLY Biology, that does not hinge utterly on the concepts of evolution and deep time. To have earned a degree in Biology and still deny everything you have learned is a dangerous example of poor thinking. H.
Houngan Scholar Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 116	__________________ Sum Ergo Cogito.

30th January 2003, 11:35 AM	#13
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	An excellent point. He never insists that the scientific method they come up with has to be Evolution, only that they accept a scientific answer. (Of course Evolution is the ONLY scientific answer, but that;s another deal)
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 11:36 AM	#14
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	Well, I think the Prof has all the right to deny a reccomendation letter to someone that he thinks unfit to be a science. And I for one wouldn't want to be treated by a creationist. Only their god knows which other scientific theories they don't believe in. "Well doctor, what antibiotic should we use on this patient?" "ANTIBIOTIC!!!... nah, call me a priest, it's time for a little exorcism..."
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	__________________ Stupid is depressing...

30th January 2003, 11:38 AM	#15
Blue Monk Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,772	Aw this is a slam-dunk! Go, Dini go! Don’t let the fundies shove you around!

30th January 2003, 11:43 AM	#16
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin An excellent point. He never insists that the scientific method they come up with has to be Evolution, only that they accept a scientific answer. (Of course Evolution is the ONLY scientific answer, but that;s another deal) The beauty of what he has done here is that claims of "religious bias" contradict any claims that creationism is scientific. As JSFolk mentions above, you can't have it both ways. If they are claiming religious persecution, then they are admitting that creationism is a religious belief. Exhibit A for the defense.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 11:46 AM	#17
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Megalodon Well, I think the Prof has all the right to deny a reccomendation letter to someone that he thinks unfit to be a science. The only grounds they might be able to claim is that he denied a letter on the basis of their religion. But like I said, if you are a creationist, this is not the guy you want writing your letter for you. He is doing them a favor by telling them up front, don't even ask. Any letter he would write for them would do more harm than good.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 11:48 AM	#18
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,018	As a question of law, can the plaintiff claim religious bias even if they claim that it isn't a religious belief? What I mean is, maybe they can claim that the professor is discriminating based on HIS belief that creationism is a religious belief, even if it isn't.

30th January 2003, 11:55 AM	#19
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by hgc As a question of law, can the plaintiff claim religious bias even if they claim that it isn't a religious belief? What I mean is, maybe they can claim that the professor is discriminating based on HIS belief that creationism is a religious belief, even if it isn't. The simple argument back is that he doesn't believe the student will be a good doctor because the student adopts a preconceived opinion and is unwilling to reconsider that opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's not a good approach to use when making diagnoses. If Dini were to write that in a letter, the only way the guy gets into a med school is by volunteering for clinical trials. IOW, it's not really religion that he is discriminating against, it is the lousy analytical skills that result in the belief in creationism.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 12:10 PM	#20
Torlack Thinker Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 130	Some of these arguments used to defend the prof are they same type of back door arguments used to discriminate against African Americans. Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in. I happen to agree with the prof. But I also question his motives.
Torlack Thinker Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 130

30th January 2003, 12:12 PM	#21
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Torlack Some of these arguments used to defend the prof are they same type of back door arguments used to discriminate against African Americans. Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in. I happen to agree with the prof. But I also question his motives. Are you suggesting that belief in creationism is genetic?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 12:24 PM	#22
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	Quote: Originally posted by Torlack Instead of directly discriminating against someone, you construct a process that they can not succeed in. In addition to the "genetic" point that pg made, ... The prof's not saying that to get a recommendation letter, you need to be exactly 5'11", named "Bob", and drive a green 1995 Chevy Cavalier LS. He's saying that to get a recommendation from him for further studies in biological sciences, you must be able to apply scientific thinking to biology. Surely you see the difference. With respect to this student, it's as if I were to say: "I can't ice skate. In fact, I'm unwilling to learn to ice skate. Write me a recommendation to play in the NHL."
Occasional Chemist Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 513	__________________ Warning: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in /usr/local/apache/htdocs/vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php on line 38

30th January 2003, 12:30 PM	#23
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,071	Quote: Originally posted by Occasional Chemist With respect to this student, it's as if I were to say: "I can't ice skate. In fact, I'm unwilling to learn to ice skate. Write me a recommendation to play in the NHL." Or how about another example: "I'm a baptist and don't approve of dancing, and I've never learned to dance. Can you write me a recommendation to get into the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders?" "Sure, I know what dancing is and have seen the steps outlined in textbooks, but I don't see what that has to do with being a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader."
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

30th January 2003, 12:44 PM	#24
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 397	More reporting... http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 Quote: I said at the outset that there was both more and less to this case than meets the eye. There is less in the sense that Micah Spradling appears never to have confronted Michael Dini. According to Liberty Legal Institute's staff attorney, on reading Dini's requirements Spradling responded, "I'll never be able to affirm that I believe human evolution is true. My faith prohibits that." Evidently, rather than make his feelings known to Professor Dini, Spradling dropped out of Texas Tech altogether, transferred to Lubbock Christian University, a private institution in the same city, and began planning his lawsuit.

30th January 2003, 01:12 PM	#25
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by JSFolk More reporting... http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 http://www.metanexus.net/archives/pr...archiveid=7725 "I'll never be able to affirm that I believe human evolution is true." Repeat of a key point: Dini's list of criteria did not mention evolution. Spradling is the one who mentions it. This is a clear indication tha Spradling understands that Evolution is the scientific answer, and he feels obligated to reject Science. Another point: The legal @sshole who will represent Spradling is trying to portray a tenured professorship as a "government official". No dice. They should clearly lose this one on grounds clearly stated in the articles.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 01:20 PM	#26
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Hey Dr. Professor, my religion tells me that women are inferior to men and are only good as sex objects. Could you write me a recommendation now that I've completed my Feminist Studies degree? Thanks a bunch. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

30th January 2003, 01:30 PM	#27
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055	Maybe, possibly, in some sense if this student approached the professor and had a long talk and the professor started lecturing him and abusing his religious beliefs.. MAYBE then he would have a case. But, quitting school, running ot another school, and THEN suing him? What?
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055

30th January 2003, 01:46 PM	#28
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by Fade Maybe, possibly, in some sense if this student approached the professor and had a long talk and the professor started lecturing him and abusing his religious beliefs.. MAYBE then he would have a case. But, quitting school, running ot another school, and THEN suing him? What? Maybe he was waiting for a Bush appointee to take the bench.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 01:48 PM	#29
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,667	So this guy Spradling wants to be a doctor but is unwilling to accept the scientific process as it relates to the origen of humans. What kind of doctor would this guy be? Would he bother to keep up with the latest research findings? Would he be able to hypothesize and test and evaluate findings to diagnose diseases? Or would he be one of those doctors that writes prescriptions based only on what the pharmaceutical companies tell him? Or what his Tarot cards tell him? Maybe recommend that the patients chase their pills down with a little Penta water? How many lives has Prof Dini saved if he is responsible for keeping Spradling out of medical school? One less witch doctor bilking the public - Thanks Prof Dini.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

30th January 2003, 01:59 PM	#30
CurtC Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 4,758	For once, I'm proud to be a Texas Tech graduate. I like the NHL analogy. The one I thought about in comparison is "I don't believe atoms exist, but could you, Mr Chemistry professor, write me a letter to be accepted into a drug research program?"

30th January 2003, 02:01 PM	#31
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science). However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

30th January 2003, 02:08 PM	#32
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx Playing devil's advocate, evolution as the origin of species is not law. I am sure the student _does_ believe in adaption and natural selection. However, tieing his admission to darwin evolution to me amounts to fascism. What about quantum evolution? "Belief" in evolution only hampers the fostering of alternative theories of origin of species (and no, i don't mean creation science). However, the professor is his own person and he can write letters for whomever he wants. Its just sad to see someone so bent on pushing evolution down peoples throats. The battle of creation vs evolution has produced a lot of unobjective scientists clinging to darwin like the creationists cling to their bibles. Did you actually read the article? The professor is not pushing evolution. He is asking that recommendees know and accept a scientific explanation to the question of human origin. The word "evolution" does not appear, except in the student's response. I.e. the student acknowledges that evolution is the only scientific answer, and that he therefore rejects science.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 02:20 PM	#33
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Yes I read it, it seemed to almost be a loaded question though. I could be wrong (probably am). I do maintain though that he could could write letters for whoever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted. I think the student doesn't show much character for making a todo.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

30th January 2003, 02:31 PM	#34
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx Yes I read it, it seemed to almost be a loaded question though. It is loaded in that Science has a clear answer to the question. Would a geophysics professor be justified in refusing a letter to a student who believed in a Flat Earth, and wanted to study geophysics at the graduate level?
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

30th January 2003, 03:42 PM	#35
Phaycops Guest Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 517	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx I could be wrong (probably am). [nodding] Yep, yep you are. The question, again, had NOTHING to do with evolution, in no way implied that religious beliefs would mean no recommendation, and the student never even tried to get a recommendation, prefering instead to transfer to another school and sue the professor. Who, mind you, he never talked to. There is no "loaded question," there is nothing whatsoever in the disclaimer that even comes close to mentioning religion. Sigh. Quote: "I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science." Gaah! GAAH! Get that guy AWAY from medical schools, please!