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18th April 2005, 09:28 AM | #1 |
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Aztec Sun Stone/Nazca Lines Connection ??
I enjoyed reading some of the posts on the JREF forum and thought I would join to discuss with you a theory of mine for some critical analysis.
I wanted to take another independent look at the Aztec Calendar. Although I have my own interpretation of the sun stone I would like to hear your views for 2 reasons, one, to get to know you better and also because someone might be able to provide information that is not available on the web. Here is a graphical picture of the sun stone.. What does it represent ? |
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18th April 2005, 09:33 AM | #2 |
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Why, it is a calendar!
... The title of the thread baffled me. |
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18th April 2005, 09:40 AM | #3 |
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Where do the Nazca Lines enter the picture?
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18th April 2005, 09:46 AM | #4 |
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Hello
I believe the interpretation is that it represents a 260 day calendar. The figure in the middle is said to represent the Sun God. Hence the naming of it as a Sun Stone. I was going to lead to the Nazca Lines later, if that's okay ?? But just as a clue I will post this picture : It's the image of a pelican from the Nazca Plain ? |
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18th April 2005, 09:56 AM | #5 |
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Say what you have to say. State your case. Present your evidence. Let's see if it holds up to scrutiny. |
18th April 2005, 10:06 AM | #6 |
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Very cordially.
Before we go any further, the "Piedra del Sol" or "Calendario Azteca" is a stone, big and grey (yes, I have seen in myself). No colors. Its on display at the Museo Nacional de AntropologĂ_a es Historia, in Mexico city (and which happens to have an ugly website and so I won't provide an useless link). Now, Here is another page with detail of the sun at the center. Important differences with your illustration are discerned quite easily. While I don't readily discard that there may be a connection between those cultures, I suggest that we walk in solid ground. |
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18th April 2005, 10:18 AM | #7 |
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And Here is another photograph, bigger, slow and NOT color-corrected (apparently shot under tungsten light with daylight film).
This seems like the actual perspective for the audience at the museum. FWIW ETA: just look at the "boxes" around the center - absolutely no correlation. |
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18th April 2005, 10:18 AM | #8 |
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I agree that we should not work from copies, when we can work from originals. |
18th April 2005, 02:42 PM | #9 |
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Thanks for the replies.
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I used the color formatted drawing as it will aid in refering to parts of the calendar. But I agree, we should also use the original to validate any differences. The reason I posted the pelican is that I don't think it's a pelican. It seems to be a man with his tongue out similar to the figure at the centre of the Aztec calendar and also of the 2 heads at the bottom which meet. I'll go into details tomorrow. |
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18th April 2005, 11:05 PM | #10 |
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19th April 2005, 06:39 AM | #11 |
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I'll use the original from the link you posted, with thanks.
Will post it late today, hopefully!! |
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19th April 2005, 10:10 AM | #12 |
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19th April 2005, 03:33 PM | #13 |
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The drawing was most likely done from left to right, rather than right to left. Here is why
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19th April 2005, 03:37 PM | #14 |
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Why do I see that leads me to believe that it was drawn the direction I said?
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19th April 2005, 03:39 PM | #15 |
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Ach. Nevermind. I think I am 'reaching' on this one.
But it appears that the drawing is of a bird that has crash landed and this may have some significance. |
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20th April 2005, 05:56 AM | #16 |
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I believe that the Aztec Calendar shows the movement of the Milky Way through the constellations. According to the Inca cosmology, 2 great rivers of the inca universe were joined at the edge of the known universe in the waters of a great cosmic sea which encircled the earth. The Milky Way was thought to have its source in the cosmic sea from which it took water into the sky. As the Milky Way passed through the sky at night, it deposited moisture in the sky which fell to the earth in the form of rain. I found that when I applied Inca Astronomy and myth to the Aztec Calendar it seemed to fit. I found some good references on the following site : http://realmagick.com/articles/54/2154.html
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If you look on the original calendar that I posted above. You will see that figure at the center has its tongue out to touch the circle which I believe represents the sun. If you follow it downwards you will then see it passes between the 2 heads. On the diagram I posted there is a single circle which I’ve indicated in yellow for the winter solstice. Going east and west from the centre you will see two sepent heads with yellow circles above and below them. I think this represents the parts when the sun passes through the milky way between 2 constellations, like gateways. I will post the details of the glyphs next and then how I think it all links to the Nazca Lines. Thanks for your patience and comments. I'll write the next part now. P.S. I too thought it was a pelican. |
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20th April 2005, 06:07 AM | #17 |
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You're aware that it's a 200 foot wide pattern in a rock desert and not a "drawing", right?
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20th April 2005, 08:50 AM | #18 |
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My theory is that most ancient rock carvings were done by small boys who should have been watching sheep. The cup and ring markings common on Scottish rocks for example, are strangely like the holes we used to carve in the wall of the local public baths while waiting to get in on Saturday mornings.
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20th April 2005, 09:07 AM | #19 |
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The Nazca lines are patterns in the dessert.
I have a celestial globe in front of me. I would like to refer to it to explain why there are arrows pointing from the centre to the serpent moving around the outside of the calendar. Refering to the diagram I posted a link to : G11 = Dog G10 = Monkey The red arrow pointing downwards passes between the heads of the 2 serpents, the arrow is leading from the Dog and the Monkey. I believe this is the Winter Solstice. I think the monkey represents the constellation of Aquarius and Capricorn (Will explain in the next section on the Nazca Lines) and the Dog represents Canis Major. On the celestial globe, at the winter solstice sunrise, the sun rises in the constelation Aquarius/Capricorn (Ancient times) and touches the milky way. At the same time on the opposite horizon the constellation of Canis Major is setting next to the Milky Way, also touching it. The 2 serpents which meet at the bottom have fluid coming from their mouths. This is the waters or rain being deposited over the Andes beginning in December/January ?? (Needs verfying). These 2 serpents are being held at the top of the Aztec Calendar by the "Serpent Holder". Again, refer to your celestial globe, here you will see the Milky Way appears to Spilt into 2, held together by the Ophiuchus the Serpent Holder. Note : the red arrows lead from 2 inner picture glyphs. also note : the blue arrows only lead from one picture glyph. The Red arrow facing West is a representation of a Gateway. Where the sun passes through the Milky Way in between to ecliptic constellations. G16 : Scorpio G15 : Sagitarius
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On the opposite side, facing east we have another gateway between : G6 : Vulture G5 : Eagle I think the Eagle represents Cancer and the vulture Orion or Taurus. Again if you look at the celestial globe you will notice that it is here that the sun passes through the Milky Way on it's yearly path. |
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20th April 2005, 09:14 AM | #20 |
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20th April 2005, 09:26 AM | #21 |
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Thanks !! That was good !! My mistake.
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20th April 2005, 09:31 AM | #22 |
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In the NW corner there is a blue arrow leading from the picture glyph of a house.
G18 = House
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20th April 2005, 09:46 AM | #23 |
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In the SE corner, there is a picture glyph of "Cane" pointing out to the milky Way.
G8 = Cane or Reed It's half way between the Solstices. If you look on the Celestial globe you will notice that between the 2 solstices the Milky pay passes through the constellation of "Musca" at it's Zenith. I think Mosquito comes from Musca. And there is an association with Sugar Cane and Mosquitos. |
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20th April 2005, 10:17 AM | #24 |
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"Musca" is a fly, not mosquito. And the constellation Musca is not an ancient invention, but a rather new one:
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Because if you don't....you got a problem. |
20th April 2005, 11:12 AM | #25 |
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Umm no, never heard of the place. Mosquito |
20th April 2005, 12:38 PM | #26 |
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The first image is a mosqiuto, in fact, most if not all of the images represent constellations. I'll prepare a list and post. |
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20th April 2005, 12:49 PM | #27 |
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Don't forget to include where North is, when you post your list of constellations. If just one of them doesn't have the same orientation as in real life, your whole theory collapses. |
20th April 2005, 01:08 PM | #28 |
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Here is a map of the Nazca Images with a North Sign. The Mosquito is image 5. Look at the image below : It is said that a cold current from the antarctic cools the air and squeezes almost all of the moisture out of the air above the Andes, so it's mostly a desert from chile to Ecuador. I think this occurs around the December solstice. I think the monkey is Aquarius and the mountains underneath are a representation of capricorn. Capricorn : Aquarius : I believe this maybe why Aquarius is called the Water Bearer yet is an Air sign. Capricorn represents the mountain Goat. I see your Point about these being modern constellations, I'm wondering whether similar patterns might have been used before. |
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20th April 2005, 01:22 PM | #29 |
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20th April 2005, 01:23 PM | #30 |
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Most of the images on the Nazca Plain can also be found on the Aztec Calender :
Here's a list. Refer to the numbers in the map I posted for the images. The left column represents the glyph found on the Aztec Calendar. Crocodile = Image 7 Wind = ?? (maybe image 22) Hummingbirds and wind Underworld, House = ?? Ripeness, Lizzard = Iguana (Not on map posted) Snake = Image 4 Death = Image 19 Deer = Image 25 Rabbit = Image 9 Water = Image 1 Dog = image 13 Monkey = Image 24 Grass = Image 8 Cane = Image 5 Jaguar = ?? Eagle = Image 20 Owl, Vulture = Image 14 Movement, Earthquake = Image 18 Knife, Flint = Image 2 Rain = Image 6 Lord, Flower = Image 12 |
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20th April 2005, 01:28 PM | #31 |
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20th April 2005, 01:29 PM | #32 |
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I'm using think, I believe, I was wondering because I'm still not sure. There are missing parts which I was hoping someone might fill. |
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20th April 2005, 01:34 PM | #33 |
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Nazca Image : Could it be Canis Major ? |
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20th April 2005, 01:37 PM | #34 |
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Get back when you have thought this through, OK? |
20th April 2005, 01:39 PM | #35 |
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Now, what? |
20th April 2005, 01:44 PM | #36 |
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Check out no.16.on the plan.
Equuleus & Delphinius Image 20 : Compare it with a better image : Notice how the Phoenix and the dog are the same direction. |
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20th April 2005, 01:56 PM | #37 |
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It's all about Moisture in the Air. This is about the Milky Way and how it's brings that moisture to the desert from the Seas.
According to the Inca cosmology, 2 great rivers of the inca universe were joined at the edge of the known universe in the waters of a great cosmic sea which encircled the earth. The Milky Way was thought to have its source in the cosmic sea from which it took water into the sky. As the Milky Way passed through the sky at night, it deposited moisture in the sky which fell to the earth in the form of rain This is a section form this month's UK New scientist : The New Scientist, April 16th 2005, Pyramids of Dew. P.52
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Each of the glyphs on the Nazca Plain represents an image which has an association with moisture. The images are all one continous line. I think that in ancient times the Incas divided themselves into tribes each representing a different constellation. These tribes each had an area of the Nazca Plain where they would collect the water which was taken from the cool sea breeze by the rising heat from the Stones which are scattered across the plain. This water would then be fed along pipes to bore holes to be collected. |
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20th April 2005, 10:14 PM | #38 |
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20th April 2005, 10:16 PM | #39 |
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Do you know why it is called the Nazca desert? |
20th April 2005, 10:54 PM | #40 |
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I'm curious, are you gong to show how the Nazcas influenced the Aztecs and Incas? Pay particular attention to point out how their knowledge was kept for the several hundred years between the end of the Nazca culture and the beginning of the Inca culture. Oh, and can both the Aztecs in the Northern hemisphere and the Nazcas and Incas in the Southern hemisphere both see all the constellations you are pointing to?
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