Hitler Youth makes good

[Blue Monk]

What a wonderful world we live in where a Hitler Youth can grow up to be Pope.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Monk
What a wonderful world we live in where a Hitler Youth can grow up to be Pope.

Being a meber of the hitler youth was slightly madotry at point.

[Blue Monk]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Being a meber of the hitler youth was slightly madotry at point.

Yeah I know but I've never been one to let the facts get in the way of good fun.

Seig heil mein Pope.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Monk
Yeah I know but I've never been one to let the facts get in the way of good fun.

Seig heil mein Pope.

So you're Jack chick?

[jay gw]

Quote:

Being a meber of the hitler youth was slightly madotry at point.

Being a Hitler Youth was not mandatory.

As the years progressed and youngsters in Germany entered into their late teens, the Hitler Youth lost its rebellious charm. Young people grew disenchanted with its conformity. Many of them sought camaraderie in non sanctioned youth groups. Cliques like the Swing Youth and gangs like the Edelweiss Pirates appeared in cities and towns throughout Germany. The Edelweiss Pirates were actually composed of multiple gangs.

These working-class youth were easily distinguishable from other youngsters by their colorful manner of dress (shorts, checkered shirts and neck scarves) and irreverent behavior. The Edelweiss Pirates were known to attack Hitler Youth units as they patrolled parks and other areas. Often confrontations between the two groups resulted in the exchange of gunfire The Pirates became more political toward the end of the war. Many were imprisoned by the SS and some were executed.

The Swing Youth scene was comprised mainly of Jazz aficionados who liked to emulate American fashions. Often these youngsters exhibited liberal attitudes that the regime found intolerable. Under the orders of Heinrich Himmler, many Swing Youth were incarcerated.

http://hometown.aol.com/baronvanc/swingyox.htm

Here's a film about German teenagers resisting Naziism, "Swing Kids"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108265/

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
Being a Hitler Youth was not mandatory.

As the years progressed and youngsters in Germany entered into their late teens, the Hitler Youth lost its rebellious charm. Young people grew disenchanted with its conformity. Many of them sought camaraderie in non sanctioned youth groups. Cliques like the Swing Youth and gangs like the Edelweiss Pirates appeared in cities and towns throughout Germany. The Edelweiss Pirates were actually composed of multiple gangs.

These working-class youth were easily distinguishable from other youngsters by their colorful manner of dress (shorts, checkered shirts and neck scarves) and irreverent behavior. The Edelweiss Pirates were known to attack Hitler Youth units as they patrolled parks and other areas. Often confrontations between the two groups resulted in the exchange of gunfire The Pirates became more political toward the end of the war. Many were imprisoned by the SS and some were executed.

The Swing Youth scene was comprised mainly of Jazz aficionados who liked to emulate American fashions. Often these youngsters exhibited liberal attitudes that the regime found intolerable. Under the orders of Heinrich Himmler, many Swing Youth were incarcerated.

http://hometown.aol.com/baronvanc/swingyox.htm

Here's a film about German teenagers resisting Naziism, "Swing Kids"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108265/

Except:

A)have a look at what happened to the "Swing Kids" in the end

b) by that point Benedict XVI had been drafted into the militry

Basicaly the guy did what pretty much every other german of the period did although there is some evidence that he was opposed to the nazis.

[coalesce]

"An occassion like this calls for SCHNAPPS!"

Franz Liebkind

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
Being a Hitler Youth was not mandatory.

Err yes it was. Between 1938 and the fall of the third reich hitler youth was mandotory for all male.

[crimresearch]

The Youth Service Decree made HJ membership mandatory.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...y-soldiers.htm

http://www.thirdreichpages.com/goebbels4.htm

I guess JayGW posting fictional Hollywood movies as a reference is a step up.

[LostAngeles]

Either way, I find it ironic that the last Pope lived in a country that the Nazis invaded first, lost friends to the camps, and lived under the shadow of fear because he was a Pole and his successor was in Hitler's Youth thingum.

Then again, considering JPII didn't seem to have a problem with him...

[CapelDodger]

It's sad, but this is just going to keep coming up. One good way not to overshadow the beatific John Paul II. The Hitler Youth thing was - not surprisingly - in his youth. Do we all want to be called to account for what we did in our youth, under far less pressure? The man's record as an adult is what damns him and damns the Catholic Church to renewed decline. Oh happy day!

[Tony]

What is the evidence that this new pope was once a Hitler youth?

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
What is the evidence that this new pope was once a Hitler youth?

The total lack of the vatican denying it.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
What is the evidence that this new pope was once a Hitler youth?

He was a young German male living in Germany at a time when all young German males were required by law to be members of the Hitler Youth. QED!

I don't think he's ever tried to disguise the fact, to be honest.

[Matabiri]

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Monk
Seig heil mein Pope.

Surely "Heil Mary"?

He didn't join the Nazi party, and absconded from the military he was drafted into within a few weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4445279.stm

[Shane Costello]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm:
He was a young German male living in Germany at a time when all young German males were required by law to be members of the Hitler Youth. QED!

I don't think he's ever tried to disguise the fact, to be honest.

According to the news loast night he was subsequently drafted into an air defence artillery battalion before the war's end, but deserted before the war's end. This was a capital offence at the time.

[Brian the Snail]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
What is the evidence that this new pope was once a Hitler youth?

He says so himself:

Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club FAQs

Quote:

The story that Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler Youth is true. It's a biographical fact that seems to have circulated on many a mailing list, and seems to surface at precisely opportune times when the Prefect finds himself in the media's spotlight. From the way it has been presented, one might assume this is one of those skeletons the Cardinal keeps tucked away in his closet (next to his executioner's axe and the token heads of Hans Kung, Matthew Fox, Leonardo Boff & Charles Curran).

The truth is that as Ratzinger mentions himself in Milestones: Memoirs: 1927 - 1977, he and his brother George were both enrolled in the Hitler Youth (at a time when membership was compulsory), and discusses family life under the Third Reich in chapters 2-4 of his autobiography.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler's Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger's father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer's mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. "Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one," concluded John Allen, his biographer.

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot - adding that his gun was not even loaded - because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.
Source: Times

Perhaps it is time to remember that we are here to dispel myths and not create them?

[BPSCG]

I had occasion a couple of years ago to talk with a guy who'd been a Hitler Youth.

He told me, of course he liked it. You got to wear uniforms and march in parades and sing songs and go camping and hang out with other kids your own age. Who wouldn't enjoy it? And what twelve year old kid is going to notice that, in the midst of all the fun, they're filling his head with evil?

The fact that anyone was ever a Hitler Youth is irrelevant to me. It's the Hitler Adults I have a problem with, but most of them are, thankfully, dead.

[crimresearch]

When I think of who is to blame for the Third Reich, children are pretty much at the bottom of the list.

[Blue Monk]

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
When I think of who is to blame for the Third Reich, children are pretty much at the bottom of the list.

I certainly don't hold it against him. My comments were made merely to point out the irony.

I believe, if memory serves me correctly, that some Hitler youth with 'special' attributes were earmarked for 'bigger and better' things. I'm also pretty sure the organization was pretty much like the boy scouts with a far more sinister sounding name.

With John Paul II's convictions in this area well known I think it is safe to say that his closeness and obvious affection for the new Pope would not have existed if there was anything remotely sinister about the man.

I just find it interesting that the scope of this man's life could enclose two such extreme iconic moments.

Not very many people have been both, a Hitler youth AND Pope, hehe.

[Tmy]

Not only was he a Jr. nazi, he also went awol!

Just goes to show you how deep racism runs. Even the hollier than thou will back a former nazi than elect a black or hispanic.

And is it me or does every nazi era german claim that they really didnt dig hitler, they were forced into nazism by evil bodysnatchers!!!

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Just goes to show you how deep racism runs. Even the hollier than thou will back a former nazi than elect a black or hispanic.

Do you have any evidence at all that the desscission was influence by racism?

[Tmy]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Do you have any evidence at all that the desscission was influence by racism?

Yes. A huge % of the worlds catholics are non white. As far as I can remember all the popes have been white. thats usually pretty good evidence in court.

What kind of proof do you want exactly?? Generally when decisions are influnced by racism, there arent many notorized documents available that say "we did this cause we are racists."

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Yes. A huge % of the worlds catholics are non white. As far as I can remember all the popes have been white. thats usually pretty good evidence in court.

Not really. Most of the popes were italian for simple reasons of internal politics which gives you only 2 non italians who both happened to be white. N=2 samples are not exactly know for their relabilty

Quote:

What kind of proof do you want exactly?? Generally when decisions are influnced by racism, there arent many notorized documents available that say "we did this cause we are racists."

Oh you know the normal stuff. Ungarded racist staments by the cardinals. Complaints of racism leaked to te media by the various non white cardinals evidence of an internal battle within the church over this issue that kind of thing.

[Tmy]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Not really. Most of the popes were italian for simple reasons of internal politics .

AKA...........RACISM!

[jay gw]

Quote:

Just goes to show you how deep racism runs. Even the hollier than thou will back a former nazi than elect a black or hispanic.

Exactly. Consider the fact that most of the cardinals are White Caucasians, and their average age is about 70. They all grew up when Blacks were nearly slaves and second class citizens and Europe was 99.8 percent Caucasian. They will never accept a Black or Hispanic Pope.

I had wished they would vote for the African, but then realized who was actually in the conclave voting.

It's good because I hate everything Catholic and now all the potential Hispanic Catholics will become atheists, and the practicing ones will leave.

Instead of focusing money and the world's attention on suffering Africa or Brazil, the cardinals decided to focus the world's attention on suffering and downtrodden.....Germany.

Strategy?

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
AKA...........RACISM!

Errr no geography. Non italian cardinals are scatered all over the world they simply can't be in rome to play vactican politics.

[Art Vandelay]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Being a meber of the hitler youth was slightly madotry at point.

I guess Jehovah Witnesses had a different understanding of the word "mandatory". I suppose when Peter denied Jesus, that was "mandatory"? He had a choice. All the Germans had a choice.

Matabiri

Quote:

He didn't join the Nazi party, and absconded from the military he was drafted into within a few weeks.

Draft dodger!


Blue Monk

Quote:

With John Paul II's convictions in this area well known I think it is safe to say that his closeness and obvious affection for the new Pope would not have existed if there was anything remotely sinister about the man.

Right, since he was so good at rooting evil people out the Church.

[jay gw]

Quote:

Right, since he was so good at rooting evil people out the Church.

Something popes through history have been very adept at.

[Art Vandelay]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Not really. Most of the popes were italian for simple reasons of internal politics which gives you only 2 non italians who both happened to be white. N=2 samples are not exactly know for their relabilty

And of course all Italians are white.

[TragicMonkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
I guess Jehovah Witnesses had a different understanding of the word "mandatory". I suppose when Peter denied Jesus, that was "mandatory"? He had a choice. All the Germans had a choice.

The problem with Nazism is that it didn't spring out into the public awareness all at once revealing its full evil. Did you think it had? That before the war, they just set out all the atrocities they planned to commit? That the full policies and philosophy of the party was already set in stone?

Nazism, like all evils, succeeded because it started off small and reasonable-sounding. Initially, it was about patriotism and the unfairness of that treaty that ended WWI. It told people what they wanted to hear, and gave them hope. The anti-semitism, the destructive war, the xenophobia...all of that wasn't unveiled right away. Hell, there were patriotic German Jews who wanted to join! It took time for the real agenda to become apparent. Whether it was all planned from the start or whether it evolved along the way is a matter for debate (my money's on a bit of both).

My point is that perfectly reasonable people were taken in by Nazism at first. The foolish ones never realized what they had gotten into when it got bad. The weak ones knew but didn't extricate themselves. The evil ones revelled in it. But plenty of people, who didn't have the benefit of hindsight, or weren't very well versed in politics or current events of their day, did get swept up into things they would never have set out to be a part of. Which doesn't mean it excuses those people, but it might explain them.

[Art Vandelay]

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
The problem with Nazism is that it didn't spring out into the public awareness all at once revealing its full evil. Did you think it had? That before the war, they just set out all the atrocities they planned to commit? That the full policies and philosophy of the party was already set in stone?

Of course not. It was collective insanity, each atrocity fueling the next. The key word "collective". This wasn't something run by a few dozen psychopaths. It was an entire country throwing their conscience out the window.

Quote:

Nazism, like all evils, succeeded because it started off small and reasonable-sounding. Initially, it was about patriotism and the unfairness of that treaty that ended WWI. It told people what they wanted to hear, and gave them hope. The anti-semitism, the destructive war, the xenophobia...all of that wasn't unveiled right away.

Yes, which is exactly why people who are morally awake don't let the "little things" slide. Shouldn't the very fact that Hitler Youth was "madatory" have suggested that one should have moral qualms about joining? Shouldn't the reintroduction of the draft have suggested that the regime was not of peaceful intent? Shouldn't the fact that all those trains were leaving town full of Jews and coming back empty have prompted some questions? Should one wait until one is sure that the government is abusing its absolute power before thinking that perhaps the existence of absolute power is abuse in and of itself? Isn't the existence of a draft in the absence of an imminent threat something that should not be tolerated? Isn't any government that demands allegiance not worthy of it? Are you getting annoyed at my making assertions, yet putting question marks at the end of them to make them look like questions?

Quote:

My point is that perfectly reasonable people were taken in by Nazism at first.

I disagree. "Perfectly reasonable" people may have not seen any practical response to it, or considered it a necessary evil, but they should have at least have
seen the potential.

Quote:

Which doesn't mean it excuses those people, but it might explain them.

What I object to is the idea that they didn't have a choice, especially coming from "Christians". What that really means is "I don't like the other options". If you're willing to trade your soul to spend a few more years on earth, doesn't that suggest that you don't really, deep down, believe in heaven? Heck, most of them could have just moved to another country.

[Skeptic]

Not only was he a Jr. nazi, he also went awol!

Shame, shame. Going AWOL from the nazi Wehrmacht.

Just goes to show you how deep racism runs. Even the hollier than thou will back a former nazi than elect a black or hispanic.

OF COURSE it is racism. There is no other conceivable explanation, is there?

And is it me or does every nazi era german claim that they really didnt dig hitler, they were forced into nazism by evil bodysnatchers!!!

Here, you're 100% correct. If the post-war testimony is to be believed, Hitler was essentially alone and nobody, ever, supported anything he did.

That said, in this particular case, even yad va'shem investigated the issue and came to the conclusion that there isn't any basis to the belief that he is in any way a Hitler sympathizer.

[H3LL]

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri
Surely "Heil Mary"?

He didn't join the Nazi party, and absconded from the military he was drafted into within a few weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4445279.stm

"No atheists in foxholes". It seems it's hard to keep the theists in them too.

[ceo_esq]

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
Exactly. Consider the fact that most of the cardinals are White Caucasians, and their average age is about 70. They all grew up when Blacks were nearly slaves and second class citizens and Europe was 99.8 percent Caucasian. They will never accept a Black or Hispanic Pope.

About one-third of the cardinal electors are of other than white European stock (e.g. Black, Middle Eastern, Latino, Asian, Native American) (source). That's quite a big voting bloc if, like you, the cardinals were inclined to view the election in racial terms (especially when you consider that a two-thirds majority is required to elect the pope). But why would they?

There is no basis for your contention that the cardinals would never accept a nonwhite pope, except your assumption that they suffer from the mentality you're projecting upon them (your own?).

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
It's good because I hate everything Catholic and now all the potential Hispanic Catholics will become atheists, and the practicing ones will leave.

Again, I doubt there's a reasoned argument behind any of this, including your professed hatred of all things Catholic. I won't bother asking how you feel about all things Jewish, for example.

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
Instead of focusing money and the world's attention on suffering Africa or Brazil, the cardinals decided to focus the world's attention on suffering and downtrodden.....Germany.

Why does the election of a German pope determine that money and attention will be focused on Germany at the expense of the third world? Did the previous pope neglect the third world? No.

[crimresearch]

"...Yes, which is exactly why people who are morally awake don't let the "little things" slide. Shouldn't the very fact that Hitler Youth was "madatory" have suggested that one should have moral qualms about joining?..."

And of course, not only are 14 year old boys fully morally awake, they are perfectly able to understand all posssible future consequences of their actions and therefor should be held liable as adults for anything they agreed to when they were children, no matter how they act when they are older.

[Skeptic]

I would be more impressed with those "shocked" that a Hitler youth is pope if they were actually shocked by the present-day intellectual descendants of the Nazis, instead of ignoring or even supporting them. In any case, the whole "Hitler Youth!!!" thing is merely the catchphrase of the moment. The real beef the "progressive" camp has with Benedict XVI is that he, like JPII, a theological conservative.

The idea is to find some "hook" that will be the fashionable, default "explanation" to every disagreement he has with their view. Every time JPII, for instance, said homosexuality is a sin, somebody would say, well, what did you expect of a Pole--it's a backward country, still mired in mideaval superstititon. Now that Benedict XVI is pope, every time he will refuse to ordain women (or whatever) somebody would say, well, what did you expect of an ex-Hitler youth, he's just a nazi.

[TragicMonkey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
I would be more impressed with those "shocked" that a Hitler youth is pope if they were actually shocked by the present-day intellectual descendants of the Nazis, instead of ignoring or even supporting them. In any case, the whole "Hitler Youth!!!" thing is merely the catchphrase of the moment. The real beef the "progressive" camp has with Benedict XVI is that he, like JPII, a theological conservative.

The idea is to find some "hook" that will be the fashionable, default "explanation" to every disagreement he has with their view. Every time JPII, for instance, said homosexuality is a sin, somebody would say, well, what did you expect of a Pole--it's a backward country, still mired in mideaval superstititon. Now that Benedict XVI is pope, every time he will refuse to ordain women (or whatever) somebody would say, well, what did you expect of an ex-Hitler youth, he's just a nazi.

It's rather funny, people thinking that there could be such a thing as a non-conservative pope. Of course the pope is going to maintain course and uphold tradition--that's what a pope is for. Expecting a liberal pope is like expecting a straight man to win a national drag queen beauty contest---perfectly possible, in that it doesn't violate any laws of physics, but so freaking unlikely!

[Ladewig]

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
Every time JPII, for instance, said homosexuality is a sin, somebody would say, well, what did you expect of a Pole--it's a backward country, still mired in mideaval superstititon.

Really. People said that. Can you provide some evidence for that claim?

Quote:

jay gw
It's good because I hate everything Catholic and now all the potential Hispanic Catholics will become atheists, and the practicing ones will leave.

So these Hispanic Catholics thought that this was an importnat enough issue to leave or consider leaving the church, but they never mentioned it before the election.


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I'm not saying that the JREF politics forum has jumped the shark, but I am of the opinion that the forum is shopping for water skis.