Conservatives stealing another Labour policy?

Darat · 27th April 2005, 05:23 AM

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/votin...471329,00.html

Quote:

â€¦snipâ€¦

Police have launched an investigation into a Bradford Conservative councillor at the centre of postal vote fraud allegations, it has emerged.

The Conservative party also confirmed that Jamshed Khan, a councillor in the Labour-held marginal Bradford West parliamentary constituency, has resigned his party whip.

Concerns were raised after the Times newspaper discovered that 13 people from Mr Khan's address had registered for a postal vote.

A further 12 people were found to be registered to vote at a derelict house that Land Registry records show he co-owned until last year.

â€¦snipâ€¦

Matabiri · 27th April 2005, 06:18 AM

Did you watch Newsnight last night? At one point David Davis stole a Lib Dem policy in front of everyone's eyes. I was so impressed I've forgotten exactly what it was, but I think it was one of the crime and punishment ones.

Darat · 27th April 2005, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri
Did you watch Newsnight last night? At one point David Davis stole a Lib Dem policy in front of everyone's eyes. I was so impressed I've forgotten exactly what it was, but I think it was one of the crime and punishment ones.

He should be arrested!

I missed the Newsnight debate, was it any good?

Matabiri · 27th April 2005, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
He should be arrested!

I missed the Newsnight debate, was it any good?

It was okay. Wasn't really a debate, of course; three specially selected audiences (for immigration, crime, and security/terrorism) asked questions, and the three potential home secretaries responded. Mark Oaten generally made the most sense, but no-one was really listening. Davis got a few good swipes into Charles Clarke, but Clarke probably got him in the car park afterwards.

Davis said that, if the technology was there, the Tories would introduce ID cards tomorrow, amongst other things.

Slightly worryingly, many of the audience seemed to be with Davis by the end.

You can watch it all here.

richardm · 27th April 2005, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matabiri
Slightly worryingly, many of the audience seemed to be with Davis by the end.

That may be a slightly misleading impression though, because of the way the audience was divided up into segments. Each segment had identified a particular issue as being most important to them.

The last section of the programme was the "Crime and Punishment" bit, and all the people in that segment held the "This country is going to hell in a handbasket" opinion. (A show of hands for a question along the lines of "Who thinks crime is under control" had no hands up!).

So I think it's unsurprising that they'd rally behind the "Build more prisons and lock them up forever" policy Davis was espousing.

I could misremember, though; there's something about these programmes that leave me and Mrs richardm drinking steadily and railing at the television

Matabiri · 27th April 2005, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
I could misremember, though; there's something about these programmes that leave me and Mrs richardm drinking steadily and railing at the television

Best thing about them. It's interactive.

The "theft" I remember, incidentally, is the lifting of Mark Oaten's comment starting about 7:20 for David Davis comment starting about 9:40 (times referenced to the link above).

(I paraphrase)

Oaten: I strongly opposed ID cards; it's important that in combatting terrorism, we do not take away the civil liberties that we value. If we do, the terrorists have won.

Later, Davis (having already said he was all in favour of ID cards): We have to balance actions with civil liberties... if we take those away, the terrorists have won.

(There were probably others later, but I was also railing at the TV and may have missed them.)

Skeptic · 27th April 2005, 08:22 PM

(sigh)

Will you make up your minds?

When the conservative do X and their opponents do Y, you cry how the conservatives are ignoring the obvious reality that Y is the better policy.

Now that the their opponents do Y and the conservatives decide that Y is a good idea as well, you whine that the conservatives are stealing their opponents' thunder.

You can't have it both ways, guys...

Darat · 28th April 2005, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
(sigh)

Will you make up your minds?

When the conservative do X and their opponents do Y, you cry how the conservatives are ignoring the obvious reality that Y is the better policy.

Now that the their opponents do Y and the conservatives decide that Y is a good idea as well, you whine that the conservatives are stealing their opponents' thunder.

You can't have it both ways, guys...

Did you read the OP? Oh and Conservative should have a capital C in the above to make any sense in the context of this thread.

richardm · 28th April 2005, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
You can't have it both ways, guys...

It's not us who's trying to have it both ways, it's David Davis. It is one thing to think carefully about a policy and then change your mind, it's quite another to do it within the space of a two hour programme. One could conclude that it's either (1) a cynical ploy to try to be all things to all men or (2) yet another example of the Conservatives being uncertain exactly what their policy is.

To return to the OP, it does make you wonder whether this press towards more postal voting really is a good idea. On the one hand it does seem to substantially increase the number of votes cast. On the other hand it appears that there are only two or three extra physical voters

Okay, so a slight exaggeration. Does the increase in turnout overall overcome the potential few votes obtained by cheating? The Electoral Reform Commission don't seem too worried at the moment (past "Banana Republic" comments notwithstanding).

Darat · 28th April 2005, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm

...snip...

Okay, so a slight exaggeration. Does the increase in turnout overall overcome the potential few votes obtained by cheating? The Electoral Reform Commission don't seem too worried at the moment (past "Banana Republic" comments notwithstanding).

What concerns me about it is why it should significantly increase voter turn out?

This is entirely from personal experience but it seems registering for a postal vote and then casting it takes more effort then walking to your nearest polling station in the what 14 hours they are open? Surely if you were that concerned about voting you would have voted anyway?

I can understand it makes it more convenient for some people, but if they are going to bother going through the process for a postal vote wouldnâ€™t they have managed to get to the polling station anyway?

richardm · 28th April 2005, 02:19 AM

I don't really understand that either. I guess the difference is that you have to make a special effort to go to the polling station (admittedly not much of one, but still), whereas you can organise your postal vote from the comfort of your own home and then drop it into any postbox when you happen to be passing.

Also, at the last election some first-time voters of my acquaintance weren't going to vote because, as they said, "what's the point". However after a bit of to-and-fro it transpired that they were unclear about what the voting process entailed, and were actually worried about the whole thing. They didn't want to put themselves into a position where they didn't know what they were doing and might be embarrassed. Yes, really.

I took them down with me in the end, and they all went.

So perhaps there are other phobics of various kinds who worry about some element of the process, and are happier being able to do it remotely.

I dunno. Just a thought!

Matabiri · 28th April 2005, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
This is entirely from personal experience but it seems registering for a postal vote and then casting it takes more effort then walking to your nearest polling station in the what 14 hours they are open? Surely if you were that concerned about voting you would have voted anyway?

Registering for a postal vote where I live was a case of ticking a box on the registration form (I recently moved and had to re-register anyway). In many other places, I think it just involves signing a form (which is sent to you unsolicited) and sticking it back in the post (or handing it to canvassers, in some cases - the law allows applications for postal votes to go through them, so long as they pass it on to the local electoral people within 24 or 48 hours).

You never have to leave your own house.

27th April 2005, 05:23 AM	#1
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Conservatives stealing another Labour policy? http://politics.guardian.co.uk/votin...471329,00.html Quote: â€¦snipâ€¦ Police have launched an investigation into a Bradford Conservative councillor at the centre of postal vote fraud allegations, it has emerged. The Conservative party also confirmed that Jamshed Khan, a councillor in the Labour-held marginal Bradford West parliamentary constituency, has resigned his party whip. Concerns were raised after the Times newspaper discovered that 13 people from Mr Khan's address had registered for a postal vote. A further 12 people were found to be registered to vote at a derelict house that Land Registry records show he co-owned until last year. â€¦snipâ€¦
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

27th April 2005, 06:18 AM	#2
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Did you watch Newsnight last night? At one point David Davis stole a Lib Dem policy in front of everyone's eyes. I was so impressed I've forgotten exactly what it was, but I think it was one of the crime and punishment ones.
	__________________ "That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school." - Ashley Pomeroy

27th April 2005, 06:27 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri Did you watch Newsnight last night? At one point David Davis stole a Lib Dem policy in front of everyone's eyes. I was so impressed I've forgotten exactly what it was, but I think it was one of the crime and punishment ones. He should be arrested! I missed the Newsnight debate, was it any good?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

27th April 2005, 06:37 AM	#4
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Darat He should be arrested! I missed the Newsnight debate, was it any good? It was okay. Wasn't really a debate, of course; three specially selected audiences (for immigration, crime, and security/terrorism) asked questions, and the three potential home secretaries responded. Mark Oaten generally made the most sense, but no-one was really listening. Davis got a few good swipes into Charles Clarke, but Clarke probably got him in the car park afterwards. Davis said that, if the technology was there, the Tories would introduce ID cards tomorrow, amongst other things. Slightly worryingly, many of the audience seemed to be with Davis by the end. You can watch it all here.
	__________________ "That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school." - Ashley Pomeroy

27th April 2005, 06:46 AM	#5
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Matabiri Slightly worryingly, many of the audience seemed to be with Davis by the end. That may be a slightly misleading impression though, because of the way the audience was divided up into segments. Each segment had identified a particular issue as being most important to them. The last section of the programme was the "Crime and Punishment" bit, and all the people in that segment held the "This country is going to hell in a handbasket" opinion. (A show of hands for a question along the lines of "Who thinks crime is under control" had no hands up!). So I think it's unsurprising that they'd rally behind the "Build more prisons and lock them up forever" policy Davis was espousing. I could misremember, though; there's something about these programmes that leave me and Mrs richardm drinking steadily and railing at the television
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

27th April 2005, 06:53 AM	#6
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by richardm I could misremember, though; there's something about these programmes that leave me and Mrs richardm drinking steadily and railing at the television Best thing about them. It's interactive. The "theft" I remember, incidentally, is the lifting of Mark Oaten's comment starting about 7:20 for David Davis comment starting about 9:40 (times referenced to the link above). (I paraphrase) Oaten: I strongly opposed ID cards; it's important that in combatting terrorism, we do not take away the civil liberties that we value. If we do, the terrorists have won. Later, Davis (having already said he was all in favour of ID cards): We have to balance actions with civil liberties... if we take those away, the terrorists have won. (There were probably others later, but I was also railing at the TV and may have missed them.)
	__________________ "That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school." - Ashley Pomeroy

27th April 2005, 08:22 PM	#7
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	(sigh) Will you make up your minds? When the conservative do X and their opponents do Y, you cry how the conservatives are ignoring the obvious reality that Y is the better policy. Now that the their opponents do Y and the conservatives decide that Y is a good idea as well, you whine that the conservatives are stealing their opponents' thunder. You can't have it both ways, guys...

28th April 2005, 12:28 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic (sigh) Will you make up your minds? When the conservative do X and their opponents do Y, you cry how the conservatives are ignoring the obvious reality that Y is the better policy. Now that the their opponents do Y and the conservatives decide that Y is a good idea as well, you whine that the conservatives are stealing their opponents' thunder. You can't have it both ways, guys... Did you read the OP? Oh and Conservative should have a capital C in the above to make any sense in the context of this thread.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th April 2005, 01:31 AM	#9
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic You can't have it both ways, guys... It's not us who's trying to have it both ways, it's David Davis. It is one thing to think carefully about a policy and then change your mind, it's quite another to do it within the space of a two hour programme. One could conclude that it's either (1) a cynical ploy to try to be all things to all men or (2) yet another example of the Conservatives being uncertain exactly what their policy is. To return to the OP, it does make you wonder whether this press towards more postal voting really is a good idea. On the one hand it does seem to substantially increase the number of votes cast. On the other hand it appears that there are only two or three extra physical voters Okay, so a slight exaggeration. Does the increase in turnout overall overcome the potential few votes obtained by cheating? The Electoral Reform Commission don't seem too worried at the moment (past "Banana Republic" comments notwithstanding).
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

28th April 2005, 02:00 AM	#10
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,803	Quote: Originally posted by richardm ...snip... Okay, so a slight exaggeration. Does the increase in turnout overall overcome the potential few votes obtained by cheating? The Electoral Reform Commission don't seem too worried at the moment (past "Banana Republic" comments notwithstanding). What concerns me about it is why it should significantly increase voter turn out? This is entirely from personal experience but it seems registering for a postal vote and then casting it takes more effort then walking to your nearest polling station in the what 14 hours they are open? Surely if you were that concerned about voting you would have voted anyway? I can understand it makes it more convenient for some people, but if they are going to bother going through the process for a postal vote wouldnâ€™t they have managed to get to the polling station anyway?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th April 2005, 02:19 AM	#11
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	I don't really understand that either. I guess the difference is that you have to make a special effort to go to the polling station (admittedly not much of one, but still), whereas you can organise your postal vote from the comfort of your own home and then drop it into any postbox when you happen to be passing. Also, at the last election some first-time voters of my acquaintance weren't going to vote because, as they said, "what's the point". However after a bit of to-and-fro it transpired that they were unclear about what the voting process entailed, and were actually worried about the whole thing. They didn't want to put themselves into a position where they didn't know what they were doing and might be embarrassed. Yes, really. I took them down with me in the end, and they all went. So perhaps there are other phobics of various kinds who worry about some element of the process, and are happier being able to do it remotely. I dunno. Just a thought!
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

28th April 2005, 03:40 AM	#12
Matabiri Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,734	Quote: Originally posted by Darat This is entirely from personal experience but it seems registering for a postal vote and then casting it takes more effort then walking to your nearest polling station in the what 14 hours they are open? Surely if you were that concerned about voting you would have voted anyway? Registering for a postal vote where I live was a case of ticking a box on the registration form (I recently moved and had to re-register anyway). In many other places, I think it just involves signing a form (which is sent to you unsolicited) and sticking it back in the post (or handing it to canvassers, in some cases - the law allows applications for postal votes to go through them, so long as they pass it on to the local electoral people within 24 or 48 hours). You never have to leave your own house.
	__________________ "That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school." - Ashley Pomeroy