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DangerousBeliefs · 7th May 2005, 05:10 AM

I had a coworker the other day say "how can you not believe in ghosts? I was just watching on the news last night this guy. His house is haunted. The doors keep opening and closing. The chairs keep moving around. His bathroom light won't stop turning on... and to top it all over, he's captured all these "things" on camera."

I jumped on Google and found:
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/050...l_haunted.html

http://www.houstontx.gov/hr/savvypag...untedhouse.htm

"Yeah, that's the guy!"

Well, I very patiently explained that "ghost orbs" are easily explained phenomena and that most experienced ghost hunters (ha ha!) have finally admitted that they're taking pictures of dust particles and how to avoid it (cleaner area, offset flash, two cameras at slightly different angles, etc.).

"Well how do you explain the lights, chairs, doors, etc.?"

I can't. I'm not there. So I don't know the whole story. But I will say that if this guy doesn't know a basic fallacy of ghost photography (everybody laugh) then he's probably doing a whole heapin' helpin' of wishful thinking.

And he has three young girls....

"But he's a cop!"

And this excludes someone from being human? If a police officer believes tiny dust particles in front of a camera are ghosts then what else is he capable of making himself believe? And why isn't he showing us video of these chairs sliding and lights coming on by themselves? Wouldn't this be a LOGICAL thing to film? Or perhaps he did and never got any footage of this.

Gr8wight · 7th May 2005, 05:32 AM

Based on the pictures in the ABC news report, my suspicion is that this is a deliberate hoax by the family in question.

Ashles · 7th May 2005, 05:54 AM

I still don't understand how people can still think 'orbs' are ghosts.

They look exactly like out of focus bits of dust or insects lit up by a flash. How bored do you have to be to pretend they are anything else?

Incidentally does anyone remember this hoax?

Odin · 7th May 2005, 06:05 AM

[woo]Some orbs are bits of dust, but how do you explain the ones I photographed by some graves/ where someone died/ where there is other paranomal activity. And why aren't there any in the other pictures I took?[/woo]

mayday · 7th May 2005, 07:19 AM

What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out.
But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is.

Please get a grip.

Ashles · 7th May 2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mayday
What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head.

Well we just go by the evidence presented, and that is exactly how it apears.

See if you can work out alternate explanations for the orbs in these photos.
It certainly seems liket that person has logically ruled out any other mundane explanations before deciding they are ghost photos.

Quote:

Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out.

Oh they ruled them out alright. Because they have decided it must be a ghost. Thus it can't possibly be dust or camera straps. QED.

Or what about these photos?
Hard to imagine what else they could be but ghosts isn't it.

More orb photos from people who obviously have made a great efort to eliminate all other possibilities before declaing them to be spirits.

Sense of a goose? If only.

mayday · 7th May 2005, 08:28 AM

Well, in the case of this woman, maybe you're right, Ashles. Maybe those anomolies are really just cracks in the camera lens after she stuck her mug in front of the camera.

DangerousBeliefs · 7th May 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mayday
But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is.

Please get a grip.

Thanks for bigfiging the thread...

Please help us understand what these orbs really are

Obviously the makers of cameras and film don't know what they're talking about because YOU are just that much smarter.

Right?

B.S · 7th May 2005, 09:48 AM

Mayday, ... you have to realise that no one can "rule out" dust or moisture in the air, or a stray hair or clothing fiber that gets in the way of the camera lens. These things are just too small to see, and they can easily be put in the air by the person taking the picture. Scratching your head, rubbing your face, moving your body while wearing clothes, all these things release dust and fibers into the air, and I've done all these things on purpose to make "orb" pictures, and it works. Even just talking releases moisture, like mist, into the air. Have you ever driven in a car on a bright sunny day and noticed how talking releases little moisture droplets into the bright sunbeams coming in the windshield? Try it sometime if you haven't already noticed.
There is no way to clear every bit of dust from a room before you take pictures, especially since you bring in a lot of it yourself. And so what if some pictures have no orbs in them, and then some do. Dust moves in the air currents, its not always in the same place. Every single "orb" picture out there can be replicated with dust, or other things, on purpose. I have done pretty much all of them myself. So since this is the case, what evidence is there that some "orbs" are paranormal? Even "obscured orbs" are recreatable with a hair held in front of the camera, so how can you think they are paranormal? How?

skeptikel · 8th May 2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
"But he's a cop!"

This cracks me up. Just because someone's a cop doesn't mean they can't be a woo, too.

My sister, is, in every sense of the word except wooism, a very sensible, practical person. She works for the government, carries a gun, and is very, very good at her job. She's also a photographer, has her own studio, and has published photos, the whole bit.

She also very firmly believes in orbs and ghosts and qi, and auras, and, well, just about everything else under the sun.

She recently showed me a video of one of her "ghost tours" in an abandoned penitentiary--she admitted that it was very dusty but could "tell the difference" between dust particles and orbs. Riiiight.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 8th May 2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Mayday said:
What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out.

Cool, that's great! How? If you tell us, we'll all be able to distinguish dust bunnies from real orbs.

~~ Paul

Nihilanth · 8th May 2005, 03:21 PM

That's funny...I accuse the woo-believers of doing the same thing; that is, jumping to conclusions. Do I believe they ruled out dust mites and straps before coming to the ghost conclusion? No, I don't. In fact, I know PLENTY of crazies that won't even CONSIDER an orb of light to be anything except a dead person floating around. Seems to me THEY'RE the ones leaping to conclusions. It's like the whole close-minded thing people toss at me when I say I'm a skeptic. I mean, to me, they're the ones with the closed mind. They won't even LISTEN to what I have to say.

KelvinG · 9th May 2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skeptikel
This cracks me up. Just because someone's a cop doesn't mean they can't be a woo, too.

I know a couple of really dumb cops. Not particularly honest either.
But he's a cop!!

songstress · 10th May 2005, 03:15 AM

If this bloke's really living in a haunted house, he'd know about it, unquestionably. He'd be in no doubt whatsoever.

Policemen can be spiritually-gifted, too.

Patsy.

TheBoyPaj · 11th May 2005, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mayday
Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out.
But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is.

Please get a grip.

I have never seen a single orb claimant rule out dust, insects or other artifacts.

Well, I've heard them say "it can't be dust", but that's not the same as controlling for the effect. They like to think that their statement rules out the possibility but, "truth be known", they're just choosing to ignore things which get in the way of a good story.

However, I am willing to be convinced. So, can you give us an example of an orb where the above explanations have been reliably eliminated?

Oh, and "get a grip".

7th May 2005, 05:10 AM	#1
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Policeman - House haunted, forming posse I had a coworker the other day say "how can you not believe in ghosts? I was just watching on the news last night this guy. His house is haunted. The doors keep opening and closing. The chairs keep moving around. His bathroom light won't stop turning on... and to top it all over, he's captured all these "things" on camera." I jumped on Google and found: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/050...l_haunted.html http://www.houstontx.gov/hr/savvypag...untedhouse.htm "Yeah, that's the guy!" Well, I very patiently explained that "ghost orbs" are easily explained phenomena and that most experienced ghost hunters (ha ha!) have finally admitted that they're taking pictures of dust particles and how to avoid it (cleaner area, offset flash, two cameras at slightly different angles, etc.). "Well how do you explain the lights, chairs, doors, etc.?" I can't. I'm not there. So I don't know the whole story. But I will say that if this guy doesn't know a basic fallacy of ghost photography (everybody laugh) then he's probably doing a whole heapin' helpin' of wishful thinking. And he has three young girls.... "But he's a cop!" And this excludes someone from being human? If a police officer believes tiny dust particles in front of a camera are ghosts then what else is he capable of making himself believe? And why isn't he showing us video of these chairs sliding and lights coming on by themselves? Wouldn't this be a LOGICAL thing to film? Or perhaps he did and never got any footage of this.
	__________________ Posting and you...

7th May 2005, 05:32 AM	#2
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,645	Based on the pictures in the ABC news report, my suspicion is that this is a deliberate hoax by the family in question.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

7th May 2005, 05:54 AM	#3
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	I still don't understand how people can still think 'orbs' are ghosts. They look exactly like out of focus bits of dust or insects lit up by a flash. How bored do you have to be to pretend they are anything else? Incidentally does anyone remember this hoax?
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

7th May 2005, 06:05 AM	#4
Odin Atheistic Aesir Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Asgard Posts: 808	[woo]Some orbs are bits of dust, but how do you explain the ones I photographed by some graves/ where someone died/ where there is other paranomal activity. And why aren't there any in the other pictures I took?[/woo]
	__________________ Nothing to see here "Then we didn't evolve! The system has been feeding us THE BIG LIE!" -Jack T Chick "Educators are actually evil for refusing to teach students Nature's 4 World Time Cube." -Gene Ray "Leo Jean has attained the highest spiritual status of any person on Earth. His spirit is one of the oldest and most powerful in the universe, and is the most powerful on Earth." -Leo Jean

7th May 2005, 07:19 AM	#5
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,800	What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out. But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is. Please get a grip.
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,800

7th May 2005, 07:48 AM	#6
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Quote: Originally posted by mayday What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Well we just go by the evidence presented, and that is exactly how it apears. See if you can work out alternate explanations for the orbs in these photos. It certainly seems liket that person has logically ruled out any other mundane explanations before deciding they are ghost photos. Quote: Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out. Oh they ruled them out alright. Because they have decided it must be a ghost. Thus it can't possibly be dust or camera straps. QED. Or what about these photos? Hard to imagine what else they could be but ghosts isn't it. More orb photos from people who obviously have made a great efort to eliminate all other possibilities before declaing them to be spirits. Sense of a goose? If only.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

7th May 2005, 08:28 AM	#7
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,800	Well, in the case of this woman, maybe you're right, Ashles. Maybe those anomolies are really just cracks in the camera lens after she stuck her mug in front of the camera.
mayday Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,800

7th May 2005, 09:14 AM	#8
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by mayday But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is. Please get a grip. Thanks for bigfiging the thread... Please help us understand what these orbs really are Obviously the makers of cameras and film don't know what they're talking about because YOU are just that much smarter. Right?
	__________________ Posting and you...

7th May 2005, 09:48 AM	#9
B.S Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 393	Mayday, ... you have to realise that no one can "rule out" dust or moisture in the air, or a stray hair or clothing fiber that gets in the way of the camera lens. These things are just too small to see, and they can easily be put in the air by the person taking the picture. Scratching your head, rubbing your face, moving your body while wearing clothes, all these things release dust and fibers into the air, and I've done all these things on purpose to make "orb" pictures, and it works. Even just talking releases moisture, like mist, into the air. Have you ever driven in a car on a bright sunny day and noticed how talking releases little moisture droplets into the bright sunbeams coming in the windshield? Try it sometime if you haven't already noticed. There is no way to clear every bit of dust from a room before you take pictures, especially since you bring in a lot of it yourself. And so what if some pictures have no orbs in them, and then some do. Dust moves in the air currents, its not always in the same place. Every single "orb" picture out there can be replicated with dust, or other things, on purpose. I have done pretty much all of them myself. So since this is the case, what evidence is there that some "orbs" are paranormal? Even "obscured orbs" are recreatable with a hair held in front of the camera, so how can you think they are paranormal? How?

8th May 2005, 11:10 AM	#10
skeptikel New Blood Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11	Re: Policeman - House haunted, forming posse Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs "But he's a cop!" This cracks me up. Just because someone's a cop doesn't mean they can't be a woo, too. My sister, is, in every sense of the word except wooism, a very sensible, practical person. She works for the government, carries a gun, and is very, very good at her job. She's also a photographer, has her own studio, and has published photos, the whole bit. She also very firmly believes in orbs and ghosts and qi, and auras, and, well, just about everything else under the sun. She recently showed me a video of one of her "ghost tours" in an abandoned penitentiary--she admitted that it was very dusty but could "tell the difference" between dust particles and orbs. Riiiight.
skeptikel New Blood Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11	__________________ "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" -Douglas Adams Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -Ambrose Bierce "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Waterson

8th May 2005, 11:57 AM	#11
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,631	Quote: *Mayday said:* What gets me about you so-called skeptics is that you act like no one else in the world has the sense God gave a goose. Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out. Cool, that's great! How? If you tell us, we'll all be able to distinguish dust bunnies from real orbs. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

8th May 2005, 03:21 PM	#12
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	That's funny...I accuse the woo-believers of doing the same thing; that is, jumping to conclusions. Do I believe they ruled out dust mites and straps before coming to the ghost conclusion? No, I don't. In fact, I know PLENTY of crazies that won't even CONSIDER an orb of light to be anything except a dead person floating around. Seems to me THEY'RE the ones leaping to conclusions. It's like the whole close-minded thing people toss at me when I say I'm a skeptic. I mean, to me, they're the ones with the closed mind. They won't even LISTEN to what I have to say.
Nihilanth Thinker Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 131	__________________ I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is. -- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

9th May 2005, 12:28 PM	#13
KelvinG Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 2,379	Re: Re: Policeman - House haunted, forming posse Quote: Originally posted by skeptikel This cracks me up. Just because someone's a cop doesn't mean they can't be a woo, too. I know a couple of really dumb cops. Not particularly honest either. But he's a cop!!
	__________________ Science is like a blabbermouth that ruins the ending to a movie. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things - Ned Flanders

10th May 2005, 03:15 AM	#14
songstress Thinker Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 192	Ghost If this bloke's really living in a haunted house, he'd know about it, unquestionably. He'd be in no doubt whatsoever. Policemen can be spiritually-gifted, too. Patsy.
songstress Thinker Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 192	__________________ Live well, laugh often, love much

11th May 2005, 05:27 AM	#15
TheBoyPaj Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,661	Quote: Originally posted by mayday Like other people don't realize that dust bunnies can create orbs and that a camera strap can look like a ghost. You act like people who believe they have actually seen a ghost jump to the first conclusion that pops in their head. Truth be known, they have already ruled dust bunnies and camera straps, etc. out. But, here we see more limp noodle "explanations" (more like rationalizations) for something you yourselves have no idea what is. Please get a grip. I have never seen a single orb claimant rule out dust, insects or other artifacts. Well, I've heard them say "it can't be dust", but that's not the same as controlling for the effect. They like to think that their statement rules out the possibility but, "truth be known", they're just choosing to ignore things which get in the way of a good story. However, I am willing to be convinced. So, can you give us an example of an orb where the above explanations have been reliably eliminated? Oh, and "get a grip".
	__________________ Paj sits down and sings about gold.