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Richard G · 31st January 2003, 09:52 AM

Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Conservative Answer:

BANG!

Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed)

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!"

31st January 2003, 10:09 AM

What do Texan Liberals do?

(I thought that was friendlier than calling you a troll...)

31st January 2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sundog
What do Texan Liberals do?

That was the liberal Texan, in a conservative family everyone would have opened fire.

Gregor · 31st January 2003, 10:25 AM

Answer: They get forcibly relocated to Berkley.

31st January 2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gregor
Answer: They get forcibly relocated to Berkley.

Come and try.

31st January 2003, 12:12 PM

In some jurisdictions you would be prosecuted because you used more force than was necessary to stop the attack; and it's entirely possible you would spend time in prison and face a wrongful death suit.

a_unique_person · 1st February 2003, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G
Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Conservative Answer:

BANG!

Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed)

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!"

An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario. This is exactly why so many people are armed with concealed weapons, and the morgues are full of hundreds of homicidal maniacs armed with knives at the end of every week.

The question that needs to be asked, since this is such a common problem, and the cost of replenishing ammunition is so high, and it such a bummer when you forget to carry your gun, is "where do all these homicidal maniacs come from, and why haven't they learn't to sneak up silently from behind."

My guess is they are being bred by aliens.

shanek · 1st February 2003, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G
Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Libertarian answer:

Show him that you're armed because that's usually a deterrent. Shoot him only if he continues to charge at you.

shanek · 1st February 2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smalso
In some jurisdictions you would be prosecuted because you used more force than was necessary to stop the attack; and it's entirely possible you would spend time in prison and face a wrongful death suit.

This is what really gets me. If it were a police officer, the fellow officers would be all supportive, saying theirs is a dangerous job and he did what he had to do. So why are ordinary citizens held to a higher standard than those who are trained to deal with this kind of situation?

Richard G · 1st February 2003, 09:01 AM

Quote:

This is what really gets me. If it were a police officer, the fellow officers would be all supportive, saying theirs is a dangerous job and he did what he had to do. So why are ordinary citizens held to a higher standard than those who are trained to deal with this kind of situation?

If you've ever seen video of five to ten officers stoppping an armed and dangerous man, they ALL empty their magazines. Thats 30-40 rounds they expend, and not a word of mention is said about that. (and it shouldn't be).

crackmonkey · 1st February 2003, 09:02 AM

Word, Shanek.

shanek · 1st February 2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G

If you've ever seen video of five to ten officers stoppping an armed and dangerous man, they ALL empty their magazines. Thats 30-40 rounds they expend, and not a word of mention is said about that. (and it shouldn't be).

Sure, but why is it whenever an armed citizen faces an armed and dangerous man there's all this questioning over whether or not they used more force than necessary? Don't citizens have as much of a right to defend themselves as the police?

Richard G · 1st February 2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Sure, but why is it whenever an armed citizen faces an armed and dangerous man there's all this questioning over whether or not they used more force than necessary? Don't citizens have as much of a right to defend themselves as the police?

Absolutely, and your preaching to the choir with me. The fact is, a policemans **** doesn't stink many times in a jury trial, or to his fellow police officers who do the actual investigating. A lowly citizen however is heavily scrutinized, both by the police, and jury.

A very good point has been made in the gun owner communities I frequent that if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself on trial for a just incident of self defense, you would fair better if you used your daddys shotgun, and not a perfectly legal AR-15, or mini-14. Then the "bad bad gun" itself is put on trial, and waved around the court room by the prosecutor because of its exotic design. Nevermind the fact the the "country bumpkin" shotgun can take a mans head clean off.

There is no law against shooting a perpetrator "too manytimes", but a prosecutor can certainly try to use that against you with a dumbed down jury. Realisticly, I'm shooting until they stop and drop, or flee, whichever comes first.

corplinx · 1st February 2003, 08:01 PM

Wow, I live in Tennessee where most self-defense shootings never make it into court. Usually dismissed. Even my brother who was carrying without a permit didn't step foot in a courtroom. The possession charge was dismissed since he would have been dead without it. He was jumped by 3 thugs who after kicking him until his left hand was mashed and his kidneys were bruised, pulled out a shotgun. He drew and fired at the shotgun wielder and killed him.

Mind you, this is by the book self-defense with a firearm. If he had fired on any of them while they were unarmed he would have been prosecuted.

gnome · 2nd February 2003, 10:55 AM

I don't think you can paint all liberals with the same brush on this issue. In fact, if any liberal I met responded as Richard G suggests, I would conclude that the major source of their opinion was their stupidity and not their liberal viewpoint.

My response, and I feel it is perfectly compatible with liberal philosophy, is substantially the same as Shanek's. Show the gun, if he doesn't stop, shoot him. If he's too close, I wouldn't worry too much about the showing.

I would not expect to be prosecuted for this, either. And if I was, I would fight it as vigorously as any other false accusation.

are there jurisdictions where you are denied the right to respond to an assault with a deadly weapon, with deadly force?

corplinx · 2nd February 2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnome
My response, and I feel it is perfectly compatible with liberal philosophy, is substantially the same as Shanek's. Show the gun, if he doesn't stop, shoot him.

One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him.

However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him.

This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around

.

a_unique_person · 2nd February 2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him.

However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him.

This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around .

With a smiley? well shanek, when you draw, do you draw to fire?

gnome · 2nd February 2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him.

However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him.

This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around .

I'm not talking about flashing the gun, I'm talking about drawing it and aiming it. If he's still half a block away, I might wait a moment to see if he stops. If he's on top of me, I'd just fire.

But this is a minor detail. I think my position is sufficiently different from what Richard G would attribute to me, yes?

shecky · 2nd February 2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx

One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him.

You have the scenario all wrong. You thought he was a wild man. However, he was actually a undercover cop chasing the drug cartel kingpin that was right behind you (who thought he'd just terminated the cop after finding out he'd been double crossed). The drug cartel kingpin had two pistols on his person, his own and the cop's (he took it before he set the pit bulls on him) and was walking casually away from the incident when said wild man (really, a undercover cop fresh from a dog mauling in which he prevailed by grabbing the knife absentmindedly left by one of the kinpin's henchmen and using it to slit the dog's throats), bent on revenge, comes around the corner, mutters "This time it's personal..." and lunges in your direction not at you or your family, but at the man who ruthlessly exterminates anyone who gets between him and the millions to be made selling cocaine to Americans. Drug cartel kingpin hears the distress of your family as you pull out your firearm, turns around seeing the cop bloodied but still alive with a fire in his eyes, pulls out both pistols from his sharkskin suit and empties both magazines in your direction toward the cop, holding a gun in each hand sideways, managing to blow away your wife and one child, seriously wound you while your other child miraculously evades the bullets. The cop is seriously wounded, bleeding profusely in a pile of carnage, as the drug cartel kingpin approaches, picks up the up the knife he dropped, ready to finish off the lot when the cop, lying on top of your pistol, lifts his head up to see the smiling, knife wielding killer, and with blood pouring down his face mutters, "Vaya con Dios, bastard!" pulls up your pistol and puts a hole straight between the eyes of the drug cartel kingpin.

That is why gun control debates should be decided by ridiulous hypothetical scenarios.

shanek · 2nd February 2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
well shanek, when you draw, do you draw to fire?

Not personally owning a gun prohibits me from answering the question as posed. I will, however, reiterate that the vast majority of successful gun defenses in this country simply involves showing the gun to the would-be attacker.

shanek · 2nd February 2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shecky
That is why gun control debates should be decided by ridiulous hypothetical scenarios.

How about a real-life scenario: Ruby Ridge?

corplinx · 2nd February 2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnome

I'm not talking about flashing the gun, I'm talking about drawing it and aiming it. If he's still half a block away, I might wait a moment to see if he stops. If he's on top of me, I'd just fire.

If the man is half a block away then you are not in immediate peril. Ergo, you have no business drawing and aiming. He can toss the knife, call the cops, and you have one less gun.

gnome · 3rd February 2003, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
If the man is half a block away then you are not in immediate peril. Ergo, you have no business drawing and aiming. He can toss the knife, call the cops, and you have one less gun.

Are you splitting this hair, or are you insisting that I do?

The description of the dilemma has my own personal peril as a given.

Roadtoad · 7th February 2003, 04:08 PM

At risk of sounding like a Right Wing nut, I don't think I'd waste any time with the showing regardless of how far away any knife wielding head case was from me and my wife and kids. If I can get them to safety, great. If not, Hasta la vista, *******.

Doctor X · 7th February 2003, 04:15 PM

Got directed here by Richard G from a debate on Iraq.

It reminds me of a column by Mike Ryoko years ago. To my recollection, he ranted about a situation in NYC. Apparently, some guy took a knife to an old Jewish man. Old Jewish man called for help and the neighborhood opened up with a bunch of old Jewish men who preceded to beat the schmuck into the hospital.

What Ryoko ranted about was the reaction from the NYC press condemning this "vigilantism"--as he put it, "the same city that watched Kitty Genovese die." [Woman raped and killed while neighbors watched and never phoned for police.--Ed.]

At the end of his rant he noted:

"As far as I am concerned, you take a knife to an old Jewish man, you take your life into your own hands."

--J.D.

7th February 2003, 05:19 PM

Good one. LMAO!

Starshark · 8th February 2003, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person

An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario. This is exactly why so many people are armed with concealed weapons, and the morgues are full of hundreds of homicidal maniacs armed with knives at the end of every week.

The question that needs to be asked, since this is such a common problem, and the cost of replenishing ammunition is so high, and it such a bummer when you forget to carry your gun, is "where do all these homicidal maniacs come from, and why haven't they learn't to sneak up silently from behind."

My guess is they are being bred by aliens.

A dude with a knife is 'unarmed'? Well, only in America I guess.

Starshark · 9th February 2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G
Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Conservative Answer:

BANG!

Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed)

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!"

A very well-considered scenario.

Why, just last night, while walking down a deserted street, I was immediately attacked by a homicidal knife-wielding maniac. Because guns aren't readily available in Australia (well... not as readily as in the US...) I was stabbed on the spot. Never did find out a motive.

I went into my local petrol station (that's 'gas station' to you yanks) to get some bandages to staunch the wound a bit when another, completely different, knife-wielding homicidal manic charged into the station stabbing me and the attendant. I thought it might have been a robbery, but no, it was just another random stabbing in the Big City.

Unable to drive, and not able to get an ambulance, since all the ambulance drivers were busy attending to more urgent random stabbings by homicidal maniacs, I caught a bus to the local hospital. I thought I'd make it. I really did. But, just two stops away, a dangerous-looking person got on the bus with a distinctly funny look about him.

"Oh, no" I thought.

But, yes.

I won't bore you with too many more details in my story except to say that between getting off the bus and finally being seen by a scalpel-weilding homicidal doctor, I was stabbed about thirty times. That's a lot. Try stabbing yourself that many times, if you don't believe me. As I lay in the hospital bed, watching the 10 gallon bucket of blood slowly empty into my shrivelled artery, I kept thinking, "None of this would have happened to me if only I had a gun. Like one of those cool Glocks."

You yanks don't know how lucky you are.

Soubrette · 9th February 2003, 12:37 AM

Look on the brightside Starshark - we have to deal with mad, marauding squirrels here in the UK

and we have no guns either

It's a mad world we live in

Sou

thaiboxerken · 9th February 2003, 02:15 AM

I'd kick the guy's ass and stab him with his own knife.

jimlintott · 9th February 2003, 07:11 AM

Quote:

An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario.

As I had always heard that most homicide victims know their assailant I had to question this figure. I found this . From the article:

Quote:

For murder victims, 45% were related to or acquainted with their assailants; 15% of victims were murdered by strangers, while almost 40% of victims had an unknown relationship to their murderer.

The sad reality is that if the Glock 40 in question ever kills anyone, statistically the victim will most likely be the wife.

If I felt I needed to walk around with a firearm I probably think everyone is dangerous.

Now this is only my opinion and not a fact. When firearms are used properly things end up dead. The reason I don't own a firearm is because I have no desire to kill anything. I question the sanity of anyone who does. (This is my opinion, you may attempt to change it with coherent arguments.) I don't usually speak out against guns because the people who love them, I consider to be armed and dangerous.

I really really hate guns.

Roadtoad · 9th February 2003, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimlintott
I really really hate guns.

I happen to like them, but at present, I don't own one, not even a toy gun. I have kids, and one of the things I know about kids is that they are curious. For that reason, I took part in the Eddie Eagle program sponsored by the NRA, and simply made sure there were no guns in my home for the kids to be playing with in the first place.

I figure my manhood remains intact. I don't need a surrogate penis, mine works fine.

BTW: Starshark, when and where did you challenge JK? He's on my ignore list, and I'd like to see the evidence that he served, too. If JacKass was a member of the U.S. military, I'd like to know what sort of a record he had. Couldn't be that good, given his attitude.

Jedi Knight · 9th February 2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard G
Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Hmmm....

HHAHAHAHHAAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHA!

JK

Skeptic · 9th February 2003, 01:10 PM

Well, the problem is that you can ALWAYS make the scenario more complicated to change the "right" answer. Reminds me of the scene from "The Naked Gun":

Police Chief: "You know I had to suspend you after that incident. It's my job."

Hero: "Well, chief, when I see a group of people stab an unarmed man on public grounds, I shoot them. That's MY job."

Police Chief: "Those were 'Shakespeare in the Park' actors performing 'Julius Ceaser', you moron! You killed five actors! Good ones!"

shanek · 9th February 2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimlintott
When firearms are used properly things end up dead.

Similar scenarios to the following are played out every day in America:

A man rushes up and attacks a woman to rape her. The woman, or a passerby, is armed and pulls out the gun, holding the would-be rapist until the police arrive and arrest him.

So, who has ended up dead in this scenario? Especially if the alternative is the woman being raped and beaten to death?

a_unique_person · 9th February 2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek

Similar scenarios to the following are played out every day in America:

A man rushes up and attacks a woman to rape her. The woman, or a passerby, is armed and pulls out the gun, holding the would-be rapist until the police arrive and arrest him.

So, who has ended up dead in this scenario? Especially if the alternative is the woman being raped and beaten to death?

america must be a strange place, as most rapes in australia are nothing like this.

a_unique_person · 9th February 2003, 03:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by jimlintott
[b]

As I had always heard that most homicide victims know their assailant I had to question this figure. I found this . From the article:

sorry jim, you will have to get used to my sarcasm.

The Fool · 9th February 2003, 05:17 PM

Its simple. If everyone in the world carried a handgun 24/7 there would be less deaths. People would be safer, crime would virtually disappear. We could close down 75% of our hospitals and prisons saving taxpayers a fortune. We would live in paradise. The only rule I would set is no hollow point ammunition until you are over 16. oh yea...only .22 for pre-schoolers, I forgot that thier little hands find it hard to pull over the action of a large centrefire revolver..

shanek · 9th February 2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
america must be a strange place, as most rapes in australia are nothing like this.

Actually, I didn't make it up. The exact same thing happened to a woman who, ironically enough, was returning home from the Million Mom March. Now she's against gun control.

shanek · 9th February 2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool
Its simple. If everyone in the world carried a handgun 24/7 there would be less deaths.

It wouldn't have to be everyone. Even a small percentage would be a deterrent because the criminals would have no way of knowing who is armed and who isn't. This is why areas that pass concealed carry laws consistently see their crime levels drop as a result.

31st January 2003, 09:52 AM	#1
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940	Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. Conservative Answer: BANG! Texan's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed) Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?" Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!"
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940

31st January 2003, 10:09 AM	#2
Guest Posts: n/a	What do Texan Liberals do? (I thought that was friendlier than calling you a troll...)
Guest Posts: n/a

31st January 2003, 10:22 AM	#3
OdderMensch Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by sundog What do Texan Liberals do? That was the liberal Texan, in a conservative family everyone would have opened fire.
OdderMensch Guest Posts: n/a

31st January 2003, 10:25 AM	#4
Gregor Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 355	border guards Answer: They get forcibly relocated to Berkley.
Gregor Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 355	__________________ "Just because ignorance is organized and given a name doesn't change the fact that it's make-believe." Lord Kenneth

31st January 2003, 10:28 AM	#5
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: border guards Quote: Originally posted by Gregor Answer: They get forcibly relocated to Berkley. Come and try.
Guest Posts: n/a

31st January 2003, 12:12 PM	#6
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a	In some jurisdictions you would be prosecuted because you used more force than was necessary to stop the attack; and it's entirely possible you would spend time in prison and face a wrongful death suit.
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a

1st February 2003, 04:26 AM	#7
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Re: Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Quote: Originally posted by Richard G Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. Conservative Answer: BANG! Texan's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed) Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?" Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!" An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario. This is exactly why so many people are armed with concealed weapons, and the morgues are full of hundreds of homicidal maniacs armed with knives at the end of every week. The question that needs to be asked, since this is such a common problem, and the cost of replenishing ammunition is so high, and it such a bummer when you forget to carry your gun, is "where do all these homicidal maniacs come from, and why haven't they learn't to sneak up silently from behind." My guess is they are being bred by aliens.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

1st February 2003, 07:43 AM	#8
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Re: Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Quote: Originally posted by Richard G Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? Libertarian answer: Show him that you're armed because that's usually a deterrent. Shoot him only if he continues to charge at you.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

1st February 2003, 07:44 AM	#9
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by Smalso In some jurisdictions you would be prosecuted because you used more force than was necessary to stop the attack; and it's entirely possible you would spend time in prison and face a wrongful death suit. This is what really gets me. If it were a police officer, the fellow officers would be all supportive, saying theirs is a dangerous job and he did what he had to do. So why are ordinary citizens held to a higher standard than those who are trained to deal with this kind of situation?
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

1st February 2003, 09:01 AM	#10
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940	Quote: This is what really gets me. If it were a police officer, the fellow officers would be all supportive, saying theirs is a dangerous job and he did what he had to do. So why are ordinary citizens held to a higher standard than those who are trained to deal with this kind of situation? If you've ever seen video of five to ten officers stoppping an armed and dangerous man, they ALL empty their magazines. Thats 30-40 rounds they expend, and not a word of mention is said about that. (and it shouldn't be).
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940

1st February 2003, 09:02 AM	#11
crackmonkey Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,057	Word, Shanek.

1st February 2003, 09:03 AM	#12
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by Richard G If you've ever seen video of five to ten officers stoppping an armed and dangerous man, they ALL empty their magazines. Thats 30-40 rounds they expend, and not a word of mention is said about that. (and it shouldn't be). Sure, but why is it whenever an armed citizen faces an armed and dangerous man there's all this questioning over whether or not they used more force than necessary? Don't citizens have as much of a right to defend themselves as the police?
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

1st February 2003, 12:46 PM	#13
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940	Quote: Sure, but why is it whenever an armed citizen faces an armed and dangerous man there's all this questioning over whether or not they used more force than necessary? Don't citizens have as much of a right to defend themselves as the police? Absolutely, and your preaching to the choir with me. The fact is, a policemans **** doesn't stink many times in a jury trial, or to his fellow police officers who do the actual investigating. A lowly citizen however is heavily scrutinized, both by the police, and jury. A very good point has been made in the gun owner communities I frequent that if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself on trial for a just incident of self defense, you would fair better if you used your daddys shotgun, and not a perfectly legal AR-15, or mini-14. Then the "bad bad gun" itself is put on trial, and waved around the court room by the prosecutor because of its exotic design. Nevermind the fact the the "country bumpkin" shotgun can take a mans head clean off. There is no law against shooting a perpetrator "too manytimes", but a prosecutor can certainly try to use that against you with a dumbed down jury. Realisticly, I'm shooting until they stop and drop, or flee, whichever comes first.
Richard G Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 940

1st February 2003, 08:01 PM	#14
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Wow, I live in Tennessee where most self-defense shootings never make it into court. Usually dismissed. Even my brother who was carrying without a permit didn't step foot in a courtroom. The possession charge was dismissed since he would have been dead without it. He was jumped by 3 thugs who after kicking him until his left hand was mashed and his kidneys were bruised, pulled out a shotgun. He drew and fired at the shotgun wielder and killed him. Mind you, this is by the book self-defense with a firearm. If he had fired on any of them while they were unarmed he would have been prosecuted.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

2nd February 2003, 10:55 AM	#15
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	I don't think you can paint all liberals with the same brush on this issue. In fact, if any liberal I met responded as Richard G suggests, I would conclude that the major source of their opinion was their stupidity and not their liberal viewpoint. My response, and I feel it is perfectly compatible with liberal philosophy, is substantially the same as Shanek's. Show the gun, if he doesn't stop, shoot him. If he's too close, I wouldn't worry too much about the showing. I would not expect to be prosecuted for this, either. And if I was, I would fight it as vigorously as any other false accusation. are there jurisdictions where you are denied the right to respond to an assault with a deadly weapon, with deadly force?
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	__________________

2nd February 2003, 11:18 AM	#16
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by gnome My response, and I feel it is perfectly compatible with liberal philosophy, is substantially the same as Shanek's. Show the gun, if he doesn't stop, shoot him. One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him. However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him. This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around .
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

2nd February 2003, 02:01 PM	#17
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him. However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him. This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around . With a smiley? well shanek, when you draw, do you draw to fire?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

2nd February 2003, 02:13 PM	#18
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him. However, you do not just stand there and pull up your jacket and flash the gun at him. Flashing a gun like this in public is considered a threat. He can ditch the knife in a dumpster and call the cops and say you flashed a gun at him. This is why when you draw, you draw to fire. Hopefully so fast that the attacker cannot turn around . I'm not talking about flashing the gun, I'm talking about drawing it and aiming it. If he's still half a block away, I might wait a moment to see if he stops. If he's on top of me, I'd just fire. But this is a minor detail. I think my position is sufficiently different from what Richard G would attribute to me, yes?
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	__________________

2nd February 2003, 02:29 PM	#19
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx One problem with this. This is a wild man running at you with a knife. Now, if you have been _trained_ to use a pistol then you know you do not pull unless you are going to fire. Now, the man _might_ turn around in the 2 seconds it takes you to draw. In which case you would not pull the trigger. Once the agressor has disengaged and your life is no longer threatened, you no longer have a legal protection for firing on him. You have the scenario all wrong. You thought he was a wild man. However, he was actually a undercover cop chasing the drug cartel kingpin that was right behind you (who thought he'd just terminated the cop after finding out he'd been double crossed). The drug cartel kingpin had two pistols on his person, his own and the cop's (he took it before he set the pit bulls on him) and was walking casually away from the incident when said wild man (really, a undercover cop fresh from a dog mauling in which he prevailed by grabbing the knife absentmindedly left by one of the kinpin's henchmen and using it to slit the dog's throats), bent on revenge, comes around the corner, mutters "This time it's personal..." and lunges in your direction not at you or your family, but at the man who ruthlessly exterminates anyone who gets between him and the millions to be made selling cocaine to Americans. Drug cartel kingpin hears the distress of your family as you pull out your firearm, turns around seeing the cop bloodied but still alive with a fire in his eyes, pulls out both pistols from his sharkskin suit and empties both magazines in your direction toward the cop, holding a gun in each hand sideways, managing to blow away your wife and one child, seriously wound you while your other child miraculously evades the bullets. The cop is seriously wounded, bleeding profusely in a pile of carnage, as the drug cartel kingpin approaches, picks up the up the knife he dropped, ready to finish off the lot when the cop, lying on top of your pistol, lifts his head up to see the smiling, knife wielding killer, and with blood pouring down his face mutters, "Vaya con Dios, bastard!" pulls up your pistol and puts a hole straight between the eyes of the drug cartel kingpin. That is why gun control debates should be decided by ridiulous hypothetical scenarios.

2nd February 2003, 02:48 PM	#20
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person well shanek, when you draw, do you draw to fire? Not personally owning a gun prohibits me from answering the question as posed. I will, however, reiterate that the vast majority of successful gun defenses in this country simply involves showing the gun to the would-be attacker.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

2nd February 2003, 02:50 PM	#21
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by shecky That is why gun control debates should be decided by ridiulous hypothetical scenarios. How about a real-life scenario: Ruby Ridge?
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

2nd February 2003, 05:12 PM	#22
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Quote: Originally posted by gnome I'm not talking about flashing the gun, I'm talking about drawing it and aiming it. If he's still half a block away, I might wait a moment to see if he stops. If he's on top of me, I'd just fire. If the man is half a block away then you are not in immediate peril. Ergo, you have no business drawing and aiming. He can toss the knife, call the cops, and you have one less gun.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

3rd February 2003, 11:05 AM	#23
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx If the man is half a block away then you are not in immediate peril. Ergo, you have no business drawing and aiming. He can toss the knife, call the cops, and you have one less gun. Are you splitting this hair, or are you insisting that I do? The description of the dilemma has my own personal peril as a given.
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,879	__________________

7th February 2003, 04:08 PM	#24
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	At risk of sounding like a Right Wing nut, I don't think I'd waste any time with the showing regardless of how far away any knife wielding head case was from me and my wife and kids. If I can get them to safety, great. If not, Hasta la vista, *******.

7th February 2003, 04:15 PM	#25
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470	Got directed here by Richard G from a debate on Iraq. It reminds me of a column by Mike Ryoko years ago. To my recollection, he ranted about a situation in NYC. Apparently, some guy took a knife to an old Jewish man. Old Jewish man called for help and the neighborhood opened up with a bunch of old Jewish men who preceded to beat the schmuck into the hospital. What Ryoko ranted about was the reaction from the NYC press condemning this "vigilantism"--as he put it, "the same city that watched Kitty Genovese die." [Woman raped and killed while neighbors watched and never phoned for police.--Ed.] At the end of his rant he noted: "As far as I am concerned, you take a knife to an old Jewish man, you take your life into your own hands." --J.D.
Doctor X Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,470

7th February 2003, 05:19 PM	#26
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a	Good one. LMAO!
Smalso Guest Posts: n/a

8th February 2003, 11:55 PM	#27
Starshark Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 121	Re: Re: Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario. This is exactly why so many people are armed with concealed weapons, and the morgues are full of hundreds of homicidal maniacs armed with knives at the end of every week. The question that needs to be asked, since this is such a common problem, and the cost of replenishing ammunition is so high, and it such a bummer when you forget to carry your gun, is "where do all these homicidal maniacs come from, and why haven't they learn't to sneak up silently from behind." My guess is they are being bred by aliens. A dude with a knife is 'unarmed'? Well, only in America I guess.
Starshark Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 121	__________________ Bis Repitata Placent

9th February 2003, 12:02 AM	#28
Starshark Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 121	Re: Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Quote: Originally posted by Richard G Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. Conservative Answer: BANG! Texan's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed) Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?" Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy!" A very well-considered scenario. Why, just last night, while walking down a deserted street, I was immediately attacked by a homicidal knife-wielding maniac. Because guns aren't readily available in Australia (well... not as readily as in the US...) I was stabbed on the spot. Never did find out a motive. I went into my local petrol station (that's 'gas station' to you yanks) to get some bandages to staunch the wound a bit when another, completely different, knife-wielding homicidal manic charged into the station stabbing me and the attendant. I thought it might have been a robbery, but no, it was just another random stabbing in the Big City. Unable to drive, and not able to get an ambulance, since all the ambulance drivers were busy attending to more urgent random stabbings by homicidal maniacs, I caught a bus to the local hospital. I thought I'd make it. I really did. But, just two stops away, a dangerous-looking person got on the bus with a distinctly funny look about him. "Oh, no" I thought. But, yes. I won't bore you with too many more details in my story except to say that between getting off the bus and finally being seen by a scalpel-weilding homicidal doctor, I was stabbed about thirty times. That's a lot. Try stabbing yourself that many times, if you don't believe me. As I lay in the hospital bed, watching the 10 gallon bucket of blood slowly empty into my shrivelled artery, I kept thinking, "None of this would have happened to me if only I had a gun. Like one of those cool Glocks." You yanks don't know how lucky you are.
Starshark Scholar Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 121	__________________ Bis Repitata Placent

9th February 2003, 12:37 AM	#29
Soubrette The Philosophy Spice Girl Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 671	Look on the brightside Starshark - we have to deal with mad, marauding squirrels here in the UK and we have no guns either It's a mad world we live in Sou

9th February 2003, 02:15 AM	#30
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 21,077	I'd kick the guy's ass and stab him with his own knife.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

9th February 2003, 07:11 AM	#31
jimlintott Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 2,894	Quote: An interesting question, especially in light of statistics that show that 95% of homicides against unarmed, white, middle class people are exactly as described in this scenario. As I had always heard that most homicide victims know their assailant I had to question this figure. I found this . From the article: Quote: For murder victims, 45% were related to or acquainted with their assailants; 15% of victims were murdered by strangers, while almost 40% of victims had an unknown relationship to their murderer. The sad reality is that if the Glock 40 in question ever kills anyone, statistically the victim will most likely be the wife. If I felt I needed to walk around with a firearm I probably think everyone is dangerous. Now this is only my opinion and not a fact. When firearms are used properly things end up dead. The reason I don't own a firearm is because I have no desire to kill anything. I question the sanity of anyone who does. (This is my opinion, you may attempt to change it with coherent arguments.) I don't usually speak out against guns because the people who love them, I consider to be armed and dangerous. I really really hate guns.
	__________________ If you are going to throw caution to the wind, make sure you are standing upwind.

9th February 2003, 11:55 AM	#32
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,739	Quote: Originally posted by jimlintott I really really hate guns. I happen to like them, but at present, I don't own one, not even a toy gun. I have kids, and one of the things I know about kids is that they are curious. For that reason, I took part in the Eddie Eagle program sponsored by the NRA, and simply made sure there were no guns in my home for the kids to be playing with in the first place. I figure my manhood remains intact. I don't need a surrogate penis, mine works fine. BTW: Starshark, when and where did you challenge JK? He's on my ignore list, and I'd like to see the evidence that he served, too. If JacKass was a member of the U.S. military, I'd like to know what sort of a record he had. Couldn't be that good, given his attitude.

9th February 2003, 01:09 PM	#33
Jedi Knight Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,734	Re: Liberal vs. Conservative Difference on Gun Debate Quote: Originally posted by Richard G Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. Hmmm.... HHAHAHAHHAAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHA! JK
Jedi Knight Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,734

9th February 2003, 01:10 PM	#34
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Well, the problem is that you can ALWAYS make the scenario more complicated to change the "right" answer. Reminds me of the scene from "The Naked Gun": Police Chief: "You know I had to suspend you after that incident. It's my job." Hero: "Well, chief, when I see a group of people stab an unarmed man on public grounds, I shoot them. That's MY job." Police Chief: "Those were 'Shakespeare in the Park' actors performing 'Julius Ceaser', you moron! You killed five actors! Good ones!"

9th February 2003, 03:37 PM	#35
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by jimlintott When firearms are used properly things end up dead. Similar scenarios to the following are played out every day in America: A man rushes up and attacks a woman to rape her. The woman, or a passerby, is armed and pulls out the gun, holding the would-be rapist until the police arrive and arrest him. So, who has ended up dead in this scenario? Especially if the alternative is the woman being raped and beaten to death?
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.