The media's persecution of Christians

Disco · 12th May 2005, 10:43 AM

I'm having a discussion with a Christian about the pastor who recently resigned after national media attention focused on his support of Bush in church. He doggedly insists that the media constantly stereotypes the religious as conservatives, and does not pay equal attention to the "religious left".

I just don't understand this particular subset of Christianity, those who feel persecuted by the media, Hollywood, and the "liberal elite". So, I found the following commentary to be quite interesting. I've asked for his take on it, but I'd also like to get some points of view from skeptics.

here's the link:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15216_1.html

Should these folks receive compassion for their plight, or are they just paranoid?

MHB

crimresearch · 12th May 2005, 10:51 AM

I don't know if it could rightly be called 'paranoia', if it is just a pretextual tactic to take power away from others.

Tony · 12th May 2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child

Should these folks receive compassion for their plight, or are they just paranoid?

I'd say they are simply playing the victim.

Cleon · 12th May 2005, 10:54 AM

Well, there is a religious left. But they don't have the sort of mass power base that the religious right does.

A few weeks ago, the Family Research Council organized a mass rally to oppose filibusters--it was carried on national television, and featured speakers like Bill Frist. That's not even a major rally--these folks can churn out tens, sometimes even hundreds, of thousands of people to these sorts of things.

When was the last time the Quakers pulled off something like that? Even Jesse Jackson doesn't get that kind of attention.

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2005, 11:22 AM

People like O'Reilly, Hannity and Rush Limbaugh perpetuate this tactic of Christian victimization. Anytime the Christian agenda is stifled, they cry that they are being persecuted. Anytime the Christian's win, they still cry that they are being persecuted. Bush get's a faith-based government, and they still cry that they are being persecuted. Kansas will soon teach Creationism as science, and they will still cry that they are being persecuted.

When they have the power to hang homosexuals and burn witches, they'll still cry that Christianity is under assault.

Disco · 12th May 2005, 11:23 AM

As far as a "religious left" wing of the Democratic party goes, I've wondered how large & effective such a group might be. The party's stands on abortion, stem-cell reasearch, and gay civil unions seem to be deal-breakers for many religious folk. I don't see how they could get around those issues to court a religious lefty.

Cleon · 12th May 2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
As far as a "religious left" wing of the Democratic party goes, I've wondered how large & effective such a group might be. The party's stands on abortion, stem-cell reasearch, and gay civil unions seem to be deal-breakers for many religious folk. I don't see how they could get around those issues to court a religious lefty.

Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--*gasp*--gay marriage).

Disco · 12th May 2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--*gasp*--gay marriage).

Sure, but do they label themselves "religious liberals", like the religious conservatives do? Do they claim religious persecution by the media?

MHB

punchdrunk · 12th May 2005, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
I'm having a discussion with a Christian about the pastor who recently resigned after national media attention focused on his support of Bush in church. He doggedly insists that the media constantly stereotypes the religious as conservatives, and does not pay equal attention to the "religious left".

I just don't understand this particular subset of Christianity, those who feel persecuted by the media, Hollywood, and the "liberal elite". So, I found the following commentary to be quite interesting. I've asked for his take on it, but I'd also like to get some points of view from skeptics.

I would say, follow the money. The media will report on whatever stories they think will garner the most attention and gain the most in ratings. What the media "persecutes" is tied to their viewers' pocketbooks. Religious folks, particularly Christians, are in the vast majority in America, and likewise make up the majority of the media's viewers. It then doesn't follow that Chistians would continue to pay for their own persecution.

This isn't to say that there aren't corrections. I think the success of FOXNews and other conservative entities is a sign of a populace that is finding the current state of its media to be perhaps too liberal or too anti-religious, etc.

punchdrunk · 12th May 2005, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
Sure, but do they label themselves "religious liberals", like the religious conservatives do? Do they claim religious persecution by the media?

MHB

More so, are they a strong political entity and have they hijacked a major political party?

Disco · 12th May 2005, 03:38 PM

True, Christians wouldn't pay to support their own persecution, unless they can work it to their own benefit. Or maybe those folks aren't true Christians anyway.

Good points, rhoadp. Thanks.

MHB

geni · 12th May 2005, 05:54 PM

I don't know but what it do know is that it is mildly entertaining to watch american athiests and american christians both claim they are being persicuted.

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2005, 06:12 PM

The difference is that american atheists don't have the seat of power to persecute anyone. Meanwhile, creationism is to be taught in Kansas public schools..

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

It then doesn't follow that Chistians would continue to pay for their own persecution.

But they do love to pay for the perception of persecution. They love to say that people are oppressing christians, even while they light fire to a witch.

geni · 12th May 2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
The difference is that american atheists don't have the seat of power to persecute anyone.

How long do you think it would take me to find the inverse claim on RR?

Quote:

Meanwhile, creationism is to be taught in Kansas public schools.

On the basis that that is technicaly persicution of the largest relgious sect on the planet I feel that claiming it as athiest specific is a little odd.

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
How long do you think it would take me to find the inverse claim on RR?

Not long, since they are liars.

Quote:

On the basis that that is technicaly persicution of the largest relgious sect on the planet I feel that claiming it as athiest specific is a little odd.

I'm not claiming that it's atheist specific. Also, it's not a persecution of religion, but of science. I used the example to show just how powerful the RR is getting in the USA.

geni · 12th May 2005, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Not long, since they are liars.

No on the basis that the goverment of the US is still functioning I think that it is safe to say that it isn't being run by RR types.

Quote:

I'm not claiming that it's atheist specific. Also, it's not a persecution of religion, but of science. I used the example to show just how powerful the RR is getting in the USA.

Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution.

Art Vandelay · 12th May 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
I don't know but what it do know is that it is mildly entertaining to watch american athiests and american christians both claim they are being persicuted.

The article cites a study which showed that some people would not vote for an evangelist. But if you actually look at the study, 15% said that about evangelists, HALF said it about atheists. How can they claim to be persecuted, when one of them is president, and none of us can be? Especially since evangelism can be a perfectly valid basis on which to discriminate, while discrimination against atheists is bigotry. BTW, some punctuation would really make your posts more readable.

Quote:

Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution.

Huh? How does that make it persecution of religion?

thaiboxerken · 12th May 2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
No on the basis that the goverment of the US is still functioning I think that it is safe to say that it isn't being run by RR types.

BS!! Believe it or not, there are governments that function that are run by RR types.

Quote:

Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution.

Wrong. Evolution is not a religious concept at all, thus it cannot be an attack no religion to attack evolution.

geni · 12th May 2005, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
[b]BS!! Believe it or not, there are governments that function that are run by RR types.

Nope. There are a few that appear on the surface to be run by RR types but none that in fact are

Quote:

Wrong. Evolution is not a religious concept at all, thus it cannot be an attack no religion to attack evolution.

going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish

geni · 13th May 2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
[b]The article cites a study which showed that some people would not vote for an evangelist. But if you actually look at the study, 15% said that about evangelists, HALF said it about atheists. How can they claim to be persecuted, when one of them is president, and none of us can be? Especially since evangelism can be a perfectly valid basis on which to discriminate, while discrimination against atheists is bigotry.

Only if you assume that athism is the correct position.

Now lets look at the rest of your claim. US presedent is only one office and what people say they want in a presedent has a very poor history of mapping on to what they vote for in the end

Now you seem to be claiming that the christian right has a lot of power. Lets see how well those ten conmadments they seem to feel are so important are being inforced:

1. Hard to tell
2.not in any way shape or form
3.not really
4.variable
5. depends on your POV by thier's no
6.no
7.yes
8.depends on the situation
9.not universally
10.you are in fact encouraged to break this one.

So much for them haveing real power. See why they feel opressed?

thaiboxerken · 13th May 2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Nope. There are a few that appear on the surface to be run by RR types but none that in fact are

You are a liar.

Quote:

going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish

He is a liar.

geni · 13th May 2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
You are a liar.

Prove it

Quote:

He is a liar.

Nope he was one of the guys who wrote letters of complain when a private school in the UK started teaching creationism.

Disco · 13th May 2005, 09:09 AM

How exactly did this become about evolution? Perceived persecution by the religious right does not always equate to a creo/evo debate, guys.

Geesh!

thaiboxerken · 13th May 2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Prove it

You need to prove your statements to be true.

Quote:

Nope he was one of the guys who wrote letters of complain when a private school in the UK started teaching creationism.

That doesn't mean it's the truth.

Kodiak · 13th May 2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--*gasp*--gay marriage).

There are even GOP-voting conservative/libertarians like myself who feel the same way!

pgwenthold · 13th May 2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
How exactly did this become about evolution? Perceived persecution by the religious right does not always equate to a creo/evo debate, guys.

Geesh!

True, but it's usually either that, teacher led prayer in schools, or displaying the ten commandments.

thaiboxerken · 13th May 2005, 09:53 AM

Let's not forget same-sex marriage. The RR thinks that allowing same-sex couples to marry is an assault on christianity.

Ladewig · 13th May 2005, 10:05 AM

No. Persecution would be a news article saying "Believers are flocking to a stain that religious people describe as an image of the Virgin Mary; however, no rational person could describe the stain as representing anything like a human face. Furthermore, even if there were a human likeness, there is no way of knowing that what Jesus's mother looked like, so it is meaningless to claim such an image resembles the Virgin Mary."

Ask your friend for specific articles that indicate persecution.

Disco · 13th May 2005, 10:53 AM

Ladewig, he presented searchs from various media publications showing "religious conservative" vs "religious liberal" usage in articles. Of course, many more articles used the term "religious conservative".

I pointed out quotes from various conservatives, including Jerry Falwell & Karl Rove, using the term "religious (right or conservative)" and said that this is probably where the media gets the term from. He totally rejected the notion and insisted that the media uses the term "religious" in a negative, stereotypical way.

I'm still tryinq to get him tell me WHY he feels this way.

MHB

Ladewig · 13th May 2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
Ladewig, he presented searchs from various media publications showing "religious conservative" vs "religious liberal" usage in articles. Of course, many more articles used the term "religious conservative".

I pointed out quotes from various conservatives, including Jerry Falwell & Karl Rove, using the term "religious (right or conservative)" and said that this is probably where the media gets the term from. He totally rejected the notion and insisted that the media uses the term "religious" in a negative, stereotypical way.

I'm still tryinq to get him tell me WHY he feels this way.

MHB

I still don't understand why he thinks "religious" is being used in a negative way. Can he give specific examples where religious people were described in derogatory manner?

Disco · 13th May 2005, 02:56 PM

Well, he finally gave one example in the SF Chronicle, with an explanation. Am I allowed to reprint what he has written on another board?

MHB

Moliere · 13th May 2005, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
Well, there is a religious left. But they don't have the sort of mass power base that the religious right does.

The religious left can also be known as the environmental movement. Environmental extremists are the same as any religion: fanatical belief without evidence. Their power base is quite extensive and they certainly have the support of the mainstream.

Art Vandelay · 13th May 2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish

Just because there are Anglicans that believe in evolution, that does not mean evolution is part of the Anglican religion. If an Anglican bishop likes to ski, would that make skiing part of Anglicism?

Quote:

[discrimination against atheists is bigotry] Only if you assume that athism is the correct position.

Even if God exists, that doesn't justify discrimination against atheists.

Quote:

US presedent is only one office

All right, name one openly atheist US senator. Just one.

Quote:

and what people say they want in a presedent has a very poor history of mapping on to what they vote for in the end

Really? We've had 43 presidents, and 43 of those presidents have been Christian. Sure looks like being atheist disqualifies one from being president.

Quote:

Lets see how well those ten conmadments they seem to feel are so important are being inforced:

Uhh.. mind including to which "Ten Commandments" you are referring?

Quote:

So much for them haveing real power. See why they feel opressed?

See, this is exactly why peoiple have such a problem with evangelicals. When they don't get what they want, they throw a temper tantrum and whine about being "oppressed". Anyone who, when they are presented from imposing their religious views on others, claims to be "oppressed" is a conceited *******.

There are laws against doing things on Sunday, against sodomy, against bigamy, and so on. So don't try to tell me they don't have real power.

Ladewig · 13th May 2005, 09:33 PM

This media conspiracy is much more far reaching than I ever could have imagined.

Here is Christianity Today Magazine using the term religious right.

Ladewig · 13th May 2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
insisted that the media uses the term "religious" in a negative, stereotypical way.

If the word "religious" is so negative, what word does he want the media to use instead?

Achán hiNidráne · 13th May 2005, 10:46 PM

Well, if there was a powerful "religious" left, I don't think I'd care for them anymore than I do the religious right.

Waitaminute, wouldn't the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton count? They use religion to advance their particular brand of left-leaning politics.

username · 13th May 2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
I'm having a discussion with a Christian about the pastor who recently resigned after national media attention focused on his support of Bush in church. He doggedly insists that the media constantly stereotypes the religious as conservatives, and does not pay equal attention to the "religious left".

I just don't understand this particular subset of Christianity, those who feel persecuted by the media, Hollywood, and the "liberal elite". So, I found the following commentary to be quite interesting. I've asked for his take on it, but I'd also like to get some points of view from skeptics.

Well last time I checked no religious person was being persecuted for being a religious person in the US. It is when religious people invoke their diety as an authority for their political position that they incur wrath.

Go ahead and be religious. No problem. Go ahead and be politically active, no problem. Go ahead and be politically active and claim Jesus as your authority and we have a big problem.

When religious nutjobs want to believe that all that exists sprang into existence in 6 days and all life was created exactly as it is today I really don't care. When they take their beliefs and attempt to force them into secular public schools I really do care.

Respect the wall of seperation between church and state and I have no problem. Climb over that wall and I consider you an invading force to be shot on sight.

Ladewig · 14th May 2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ooh_child
Well, he finally gave one example in the SF Chronicle, with an explanation. Am I allowed to reprint what he has written on another board?

MHB

A link with a brief excerpt or two will violate neither forum rules nor copyright laws.

geni · 14th May 2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
You need to prove your statements to be true.

Which countries are you claiming are run by RR types?

Quote:

That doesn't mean it's the truth.

You want a more dirrect example? The last pope's statement on evolution means that it is part of catholic doctrine.

12th May 2005, 10:43 AM	#1
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	The media's persecution of Christians I'm having a discussion with a Christian about the pastor who recently resigned after national media attention focused on his support of Bush in church. He doggedly insists that the media constantly stereotypes the religious as conservatives, and does not pay equal attention to the "religious left". I just don't understand this particular subset of Christianity, those who feel persecuted by the media, Hollywood, and the "liberal elite". So, I found the following commentary to be quite interesting. I've asked for his take on it, but I'd also like to get some points of view from skeptics. here's the link: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/152/story_15216_1.html Should these folks receive compassion for their plight, or are they just paranoid? MHB
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

12th May 2005, 10:51 AM	#2
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	I don't know if it could rightly be called 'paranoia', if it is just a pretextual tactic to take power away from others.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

12th May 2005, 10:53 AM	#3
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,768	Re: The media's persecution of Christians Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child Should these folks receive compassion for their plight, or are they just paranoid? I'd say they are simply playing the victim.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

12th May 2005, 10:54 AM	#4
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,536	Well, there is a religious left. But they don't have the sort of mass power base that the religious right does. A few weeks ago, the Family Research Council organized a mass rally to oppose filibusters--it was carried on national television, and featured speakers like Bill Frist. That's not even a major rally--these folks can churn out tens, sometimes even hundreds, of thousands of people to these sorts of things. When was the last time the Quakers pulled off something like that? Even Jesse Jackson doesn't get that kind of attention.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

12th May 2005, 11:22 AM	#5
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	People like O'Reilly, Hannity and Rush Limbaugh perpetuate this tactic of Christian victimization. Anytime the Christian agenda is stifled, they cry that they are being persecuted. Anytime the Christian's win, they still cry that they are being persecuted. Bush get's a faith-based government, and they still cry that they are being persecuted. Kansas will soon teach Creationism as science, and they will still cry that they are being persecuted. When they have the power to hang homosexuals and burn witches, they'll still cry that Christianity is under assault.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

12th May 2005, 11:23 AM	#6
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	As far as a "religious left" wing of the Democratic party goes, I've wondered how large & effective such a group might be. The party's stands on abortion, stem-cell reasearch, and gay civil unions seem to be deal-breakers for many religious folk. I don't see how they could get around those issues to court a religious lefty.
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

12th May 2005, 11:24 AM	#7
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,536	Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child As far as a "religious left" wing of the Democratic party goes, I've wondered how large & effective such a group might be. The party's stands on abortion, stem-cell reasearch, and gay civil unions seem to be deal-breakers for many religious folk. I don't see how they could get around those issues to court a religious lefty. Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--gasp--gay marriage).
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

12th May 2005, 11:31 AM	#8
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon *Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--gasp--gay marriage).* Sure, but do they label themselves "religious liberals", like the religious conservatives do? Do they claim religious persecution by the media? MHB
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

12th May 2005, 12:59 PM	#9
punchdrunk Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,003	Re: The media's persecution of Christians Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child I'm having a discussion with a Christian about the pastor who recently resigned after national media attention focused on his support of Bush in church. He doggedly insists that the media constantly stereotypes the religious as conservatives, and does not pay equal attention to the "religious left". I just don't understand this particular subset of Christianity, those who feel persecuted by the media, Hollywood, and the "liberal elite". So, I found the following commentary to be quite interesting. I've asked for his take on it, but I'd also like to get some points of view from skeptics. I would say, follow the money. The media will report on whatever stories they think will garner the most attention and gain the most in ratings. What the media "persecutes" is tied to their viewers' pocketbooks. Religious folks, particularly Christians, are in the vast majority in America, and likewise make up the majority of the media's viewers. It then doesn't follow that Chistians would continue to pay for their own persecution. This isn't to say that there aren't corrections. I think the success of FOXNews and other conservative entities is a sign of a populace that is finding the current state of its media to be perhaps too liberal or too anti-religious, etc.
	__________________ Freedom is self-responsibility; nothing less, nothing more. Finally, proof!: "Republicans = evil fundie criminal warmonger vampires" - (BPSCG, 5/11/06)

12th May 2005, 01:01 PM	#10
punchdrunk Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,003	Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child Sure, but do they label themselves "religious liberals", like the religious conservatives do? Do they claim religious persecution by the media? MHB More so, are they a strong political entity and have they hijacked a major political party?
	__________________ Freedom is self-responsibility; nothing less, nothing more. Finally, proof!: "Republicans = evil fundie criminal warmonger vampires" - (BPSCG, 5/11/06)

12th May 2005, 03:38 PM	#11
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	True, Christians wouldn't pay to support their own persecution, unless they can work it to their own benefit. Or maybe those folks aren't true Christians anyway. Good points, rhoadp. Thanks. MHB
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

12th May 2005, 05:54 PM	#12
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	I don't know but what it do know is that it is mildly entertaining to watch american athiests and american christians both claim they are being persicuted.

12th May 2005, 06:12 PM	#13
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	The difference is that american atheists don't have the seat of power to persecute anyone. Meanwhile, creationism is to be taught in Kansas public schools..
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

12th May 2005, 06:14 PM	#14
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Quote: It then doesn't follow that Chistians would continue to pay for their own persecution. But they do love to pay for the perception of persecution. They love to say that people are oppressing christians, even while they light fire to a witch.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

12th May 2005, 06:20 PM	#15
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by thaiboxerken The difference is that american atheists don't have the seat of power to persecute anyone. How long do you think it would take me to find the inverse claim on RR? Quote: Meanwhile, creationism is to be taught in Kansas public schools. On the basis that that is technicaly persicution of the largest relgious sect on the planet I feel that claiming it as athiest specific is a little odd.

12th May 2005, 06:22 PM	#16
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Quote: Originally posted by geni How long do you think it would take me to find the inverse claim on RR? Not long, since they are liars. Quote: On the basis that that is technicaly persicution of the largest relgious sect on the planet I feel that claiming it as athiest specific is a little odd. I'm not claiming that it's atheist specific. Also, it's not a persecution of religion, but of science. I used the example to show just how powerful the RR is getting in the USA.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

12th May 2005, 06:27 PM	#17
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by thaiboxerken Not long, since they are liars. No on the basis that the goverment of the US is still functioning I think that it is safe to say that it isn't being run by RR types. Quote: I'm not claiming that it's atheist specific. Also, it's not a persecution of religion, but of science. I used the example to show just how powerful the RR is getting in the USA. Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution.

12th May 2005, 11:00 PM	#18
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	Quote: Originally posted by geni I don't know but what it do know is that it is mildly entertaining to watch american athiests and american christians both claim they are being persicuted. The article cites a study which showed that some people would not vote for an evangelist. But if you actually look at the study, 15% said that about evangelists, HALF said it about atheists. How can they claim to be persecuted, when one of them is president, and none of us can be? Especially since evangelism can be a perfectly valid basis on which to discriminate, while discrimination against atheists is bigotry. BTW, some punctuation would really make your posts more readable. Quote: Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution. Huh? How does that make it persecution of religion?

12th May 2005, 11:10 PM	#19
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Quote: Originally posted by geni No on the basis that the goverment of the US is still functioning I think that it is safe to say that it isn't being run by RR types. BS!! Believe it or not, there are governments that function that are run by RR types. Quote: Technicaly it is the presicution of relgion since some forms of relgion accept/belive in evolution. Wrong. Evolution is not a religious concept at all, thus it cannot be an attack no religion to attack evolution.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

12th May 2005, 11:53 PM	#20
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by thaiboxerken [b]BS!! Believe it or not, there are governments that function that are run by RR types. Nope. There are a few that appear on the surface to be run by RR types but none that in fact are Quote: Wrong. Evolution is not a religious concept at all, thus it cannot be an attack no religion to attack evolution. going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish

13th May 2005, 12:11 AM	#21
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by Art Vandelay [b]The article cites a study which showed that some people would not vote for an evangelist. But if you actually look at the study, 15% said that about evangelists, HALF said it about atheists. How can they claim to be persecuted, when one of them is president, and none of us can be? Especially since evangelism can be a perfectly valid basis on which to discriminate, while discrimination against atheists is bigotry. Only if you assume that athism is the correct position. Now lets look at the rest of your claim. US presedent is only one office and what people say they want in a presedent has a very poor history of mapping on to what they vote for in the end Now you seem to be claiming that the christian right has a lot of power. Lets see how well those ten conmadments they seem to feel are so important are being inforced: 1. Hard to tell 2.not in any way shape or form 3.not really 4.variable 5. depends on your POV by thier's no 6.no 7.yes 8.depends on the situation 9.not universally 10.you are in fact encouraged to break this one. So much for them haveing real power. See why they feel opressed?

13th May 2005, 08:41 AM	#22
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Quote: Originally posted by geni Nope. There are a few that appear on the surface to be run by RR types but none that in fact are You are a liar. Quote: going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish He is a liar.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th May 2005, 08:57 AM	#23
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,579	Quote: Originally posted by thaiboxerken You are a liar. Prove it Quote: He is a liar. Nope he was one of the guys who wrote letters of complain when a private school in the UK started teaching creationism.

13th May 2005, 09:09 AM	#24
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	How exactly did this become about evolution? Perceived persecution by the religious right does not always equate to a creo/evo debate, guys. Geesh!
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

13th May 2005, 09:12 AM	#25
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Quote: Originally posted by geni Prove it You need to prove your statements to be true. Quote: Nope he was one of the guys who wrote letters of complain when a private school in the UK started teaching creationism. That doesn't mean it's the truth.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th May 2005, 09:20 AM	#26
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,279	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon *Well, because there are a large number of religious folks who have no problem with abortion, stem-cell research, and gay civil unions (even--gasp--gay marriage).* There are even GOP-voting conservative/libertarians like myself who feel the same way!
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

13th May 2005, 09:24 AM	#27
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child How exactly did this become about evolution? Perceived persecution by the religious right does not always equate to a creo/evo debate, guys. Geesh! True, but it's usually either that, teacher led prayer in schools, or displaying the ten commandments.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

13th May 2005, 09:53 AM	#28
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,995	Let's not forget same-sex marriage. The RR thinks that allowing same-sex couples to marry is an assault on christianity.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th May 2005, 10:05 AM	#29
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	No. Persecution would be a news article saying "Believers are flocking to a stain that religious people describe as an image of the Virgin Mary; however, no rational person could describe the stain as representing anything like a human face. Furthermore, even if there were a human likeness, there is no way of knowing that what Jesus's mother looked like, so it is meaningless to claim such an image resembles the Virgin Mary." Ask your friend for specific articles that indicate persecution.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

13th May 2005, 10:53 AM	#30
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	Ladewig, he presented searchs from various media publications showing "religious conservative" vs "religious liberal" usage in articles. Of course, many more articles used the term "religious conservative". I pointed out quotes from various conservatives, including Jerry Falwell & Karl Rove, using the term "religious (right or conservative)" and said that this is probably where the media gets the term from. He totally rejected the notion and insisted that the media uses the term "religious" in a negative, stereotypical way. I'm still tryinq to get him tell me WHY he feels this way. MHB
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

13th May 2005, 12:23 PM	#31
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Quote: Originally posted by ooh_child Ladewig, he presented searchs from various media publications showing "religious conservative" vs "religious liberal" usage in articles. Of course, many more articles used the term "religious conservative". I pointed out quotes from various conservatives, including Jerry Falwell & Karl Rove, using the term "religious (right or conservative)" and said that this is probably where the media gets the term from. He totally rejected the notion and insisted that the media uses the term "religious" in a negative, stereotypical way. I'm still tryinq to get him tell me WHY he feels this way. MHB I still don't understand why he thinks "religious" is being used in a negative way. Can he give specific examples where religious people were described in derogatory manner?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

13th May 2005, 02:56 PM	#32
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441	Well, he finally gave one example in the SF Chronicle, with an explanation. Am I allowed to reprint what he has written on another board? MHB
Disco Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 441

13th May 2005, 03:17 PM	#33
Moliere Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 196	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon Well, there is a religious left. But they don't have the sort of mass power base that the religious right does. The religious left can also be known as the environmental movement. Environmental extremists are the same as any religion: fanatical belief without evidence. Their power base is quite extensive and they certainly have the support of the mainstream.
Moliere Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 196

13th May 2005, 05:14 PM	#34
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	Quote: Originally posted by geni going against evolution goes against C of E doctrain just ask the arc bish Just because there are Anglicans that believe in evolution, that does not mean evolution is part of the Anglican religion. If an Anglican bishop likes to ski, would that make skiing part of Anglicism? Quote: [discrimination against atheists is bigotry] Only if you assume that athism is the correct position. Even if God exists, that doesn't justify discrimination against atheists. Quote: US presedent is only one office All right, name one openly atheist US senator. Just one. Quote: and what people say they want in a presedent has a very poor history of mapping on to what they vote for in the end Really? We've had 43 presidents, and 43 of those presidents have been Christian. Sure looks like being atheist disqualifies one from being president. Quote: Lets see how well those ten conmadments they seem to feel are so important are being inforced: Uhh.. mind including to which "Ten Commandments" you are referring? Quote: So much for them haveing real power. See why they feel opressed? See, this is exactly why peoiple have such a problem with evangelicals. When they don't get what they want, they throw a temper tantrum and whine about being "oppressed". Anyone who, when they are presented from imposing their religious views on others, claims to be "oppressed" is a conceited *******. There are laws against doing things on Sunday, against sodomy, against bigamy, and so on. So don't try to tell me they don't have real power.

13th May 2005, 09:33 PM	#35
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	This media conspiracy is much more far reaching than I ever could have imagined. Here is Christianity Today Magazine using the term religious right.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.