Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors?

Iamme · 14th May 2005, 12:31 PM

How? How can this be?

The barber's straight edge is a relatively thick bladed knife as opposed to the safety razors? Am I right?

If they are, how can you sharpen a thick blade to be sharper than a thin blade that is so thin you can flex it? They sharpen their blade on a leather strap. But so what? I can't see how a thicker bladed razor can be honed to be as sharp, or sharper than one from thin metal.

Dilb · 14th May 2005, 12:51 PM

I havn't got any actual information, but the only important thickness is the cutting edge. The blade can be as thick as you like furthur back. It doesn't stop it from coming to a finer point at the cutting edge.

For some other reasons:
1. The barbers might have better quality steel, which takes a better edge
2. The barbers might have it professionally sharpened, so that it's a better edge than the mass-production facilities at Gillette

ma1ic3 · 14th May 2005, 12:54 PM

Iamme · 14th May 2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ma1ic3

--------------------------------------

I don't think THAT would even be able to cut a weiner in half!

This illustration shows to me how a thick bladed knife or razor comes to a point. The angle is steeper. If the angle is steeper, it can't be as sharp. I think this is some law of physics.

Now if you could do a blow up of the thin safety razor please?

Beanbag · 14th May 2005, 01:41 PM

A straight razor is hollow-ground to a progressively thinner edge. The "business end" has a shallower taper than a regular razor blade.

The design has something to do with who is actually using the razor. Safety razors are designed for people to shave themselves, while a straight razor is for when you're shaving someone else. Think about it -- straight razors were designed when mirrors were both uncommon and pretty poor quality. You went to the barber to get shaved. They're like scissors in that the design has been evolved over thousands of years.

What you end up with is a device that fits the hand well, is easy to maneuver over somebody else's face, and can be resharpened in a few seconds by working it over a leather strop.

The funny thing is that you can hand any teenage kid a safety razor for the first time and be reasonably certain that they won't do too much damage to their face except for a few nicks. Hand them a straight razor, and you're talking band-aids, plus maybe a few stitches. Shaving yourself succesfully with a straight razor is an acquired skill.

Regards;
Beanbag

ma1ic3 · 14th May 2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iamme
I don't think THAT would even be able to cut a weiner in half!

I hope you're not talking about the big one, because I could cut you in half with that.

Rob Lister · 14th May 2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iamme
How? How can this be?

Who sez it is? An old-fashioned barber's blade is nowhere near as sharp as a razor blade. The new ones, modern ones, only appear as if they have permanent blades but generally they don't. They have disposable inserts that fit halfway down the center of the blade. Like this:

replacements:

epepke · 14th May 2005, 02:41 PM

They aren't.

I own a modern straight razor made in Germany, and although it's fun, there's just no way that it's going to be sharper than a razor blade out of the box. Even most barbers who use straight razors use special ones with replaceable blades these days.

ma1ic3 · 14th May 2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lamme
The angle is steeper. If the angle is steeper, it can't be as sharp. I think this is some law of physics.

Ok, I think the illustration below shows what you're talking about.

Blades break the skin easily because when you push it up against the skin, kinetic energy is transfered to a very small area, which makes it more intense. The less metal surface that your skin comes in contact with, the more intense this transfer will be. I think intensity equals power/area.

The deeper you cut into something, the more the angle of the blade will cause the intensity to drop. The less a blade goes into something, the less of a difference the angle will make.

The first row shows them going in deep, the one with the steepest angle comes in contact with 15.1 times more skin than the razor below. This number drops down to 8.5 in the second column where the blades aren't going in as deep.

Soapy Sam · 16th May 2005, 05:21 AM

With any cutting edge there's a trade off between sharpness and wear. A very fine edge gets blunt very fast- possibly at first contact. A slightly blunter but thicker, or harder edge will last longer between sharpenings. Safety razors are not resharpenable, so can't be thick bladed.

Modern safety razors have blades so thin they warp under slight pressure- hence the rigid plastic supports. This has allowed addition of extra blades- but these must be staggered so they do not both touch the bristles at exactly the same time. If they did, the effect would be to require twice the pressure for the same cut.

Multiple blades with rigid supports are easily plugged by cut hairs and soap.

You can't win.

Rob Lister · 16th May 2005, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Multiple blades with rigid supports are easily plugged by cut hairs and soap.

You can't win.

Which is why they should develop a multiblade safety razor that has a little spring-loaded lever you can push to temporarily separate the blades so as to easily rinse out the gunk.

Just thinking · 16th May 2005, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iamme
The barber's straight edge is a relatively thick bladed knife as opposed to the safety razors? Am I right?

Well, I can't speak for a Barber's razor, as I have never been shaved by one, but I can suggest what might be the closest shave one can get using a safety razor -- and that's the Gillette M3Power razor. By far it's given me the best shave yet -- one that can go 48 hours and still look clean shaven. The trick seems to be a slower stroke (not slow -- slower) than normal. Yes, this is the one with the little AAA battery inside (which lasts almost indefinitely), and sounds like your average woo-woo claim. But I can't complain about the results. I even tried going back to their regular safety razor and can't get the same shave; even with brand new blades. They might just be onto something here.

Iamme · 16th May 2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Just thinking
Well, I can't speak for a Barber's razor, as I have never been shaved by one, but I can suggest what might be the closest shave one can get using a safety razor -- and that's the Gillette M3Power razor. By far it's given me the best shave yet -- one that can go 48 hours and still look clean shaven. The trick seems to be a slower stroke (not slow -- slower) than normal. Yes, this is the one with the little AAA battery inside (which lasts almost indefinitely), and sounds like your average woo-woo claim. But I can't complain about the results. I even tried going back to their regular safety razor and can't get the same shave; even with brand new blades. They might just be onto something here.

--------------------------------------------------------

Even if the shave is as smooth as a baby's butt...I don't think the fact that it lasts 48 hours has anything to do with anything other than the fact your whiskers don't grow very fast.

My next door neighbor goes from clean shaven one weekend to looking like Grizzly Adams by the next weekend. I've never seen anything like it. He is one of those guys who is quite hairy all over, I might add.

I use one of those triple track razors and shave against the grain with nothing more than soap (Dove, that has moisturizing creme in it), and *I* get a shave that is baby smooth. But by evening, my face has already started to feel like maybe 100 grit sandpaper.

Just thinking · 16th May 2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iamme
--------------------------------------------------------

Even if the shave is as smooth as a baby's butt...I don't think the fact that it lasts 48 hours has anything to do with anything other than the fact your whiskers don't grow very fast.

Well, it certainly doesn't stay that smooth for so long with the regular razors -- more like 12-18 hours at most.

JSFolk · 16th May 2005, 10:46 PM

It is entirely possible that a properly-maintained straight razor could be sharper than a safety razor. The key is that it be properly maintained, which does take some skill to learn how to do with a leather strop, and is why I imagine that the faux-straight razors shown earlier in this thread have come into fashion.

I have a sharpening kit sitting next to me on the desk that can put a sharper edge on my pocket knife than most scalpels have. This topic is discussed in a bit of depth in this thread..

Bladeforums discussion

Lots of these guys are fanatical about sharpness, so more info is as easy as a search.

Dan Beaird · 17th May 2005, 12:29 PM

Generally speaking a sharper edge can be put on a straight razor than that on a disposable right out of the box. The fact is that in terms of razors, those disposables aren't all that sharp. The reason is that, practically speaking, the sharper any edge is, the faster it will dull and the thin material of the disposables would dull so fast that they would be unusuable after a few strokes.

There are questions about blade geometry and questions about blade materials that come into play, but straight razors are generally made of extremely high quality carbon steel. With the proper materials, equipment and training you can get the cutting edge down to a handfull of molecules across although something that sharp would also dull with a couple of strokes.

Straight razors are not sharpened by using a strop, they are honed and polished. Honing is the process of realigning the edge where it has taken on imperfections caused by sharpening or use. Polishing takes away a miniscule portion of material and can restore the edge of a blade that is a bit dulled by use.

In practice the leather strop is not a perfect implement for polishing a razor edge although it does suffice for the purposes of shaving. I would doubt anyone could finish an edge as sharp as a disposable razor using that technique.

I don't sharpen straight razors, but I do keep an edge on a lot of knives used for leather work and have a little experience with sword polishing and knife sharpening.

Oh, and yes you can shave yourself with a straight razor. My grandpa did it into his 70's, it was a fascinating and scary thing to watch. I never had the slightest wish to try.

Ririon · 17th May 2005, 01:49 PM

What? Nobody with access to a Scanning Electron Microscope?

This would be some cool stuff to look at in a SEM.
Barber's VS safety staight out of the box VS used once VS dull.

(For those of you who have never used one, it's the microscopes that make those images of dustmites in too much detail.)

Ririon

Art Vandelay · 18th May 2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ma1ic3
Blades break the skin easily because when you push it up against the skin, kinetic energy is transfered to a very small area, which makes it more intense. The less metal surface that your skin comes in contact with, the more intense this transfer will be. I think intensity equals power/area.

I think it's more than that. Blades are essentially inclined planes. When you push a blade into the skin, you're exerting a force normal to the surface. But in order to cut, you have to push the skin away, that is, parallel to the surface. So the blade transform force in one direction into force in another. The sharper the blade, the greater the parallel to normal conversion ratio is, which means you don't need much force to push it in.

Also, since sharp blades make it easier to push skin away, there's less of a need to push it in. Conversely, a dull blade causes more bruising, since the skin gets pushed in rather than away

14th May 2005, 12:31 PM	#1
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors? How? How can this be? The barber's straight edge is a relatively thick bladed knife as opposed to the safety razors? Am I right? If they are, how can you sharpen a thick blade to be sharper than a thin blade that is so thin you can flex it? They sharpen their blade on a leather strap. But so what? I can't see how a thicker bladed razor can be honed to be as sharp, or sharper than one from thin metal.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

14th May 2005, 12:51 PM	#2
Dilb Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 738	I havn't got any actual information, but the only important thickness is the cutting edge. The blade can be as thick as you like furthur back. It doesn't stop it from coming to a finer point at the cutting edge. For some other reasons: 1. The barbers might have better quality steel, which takes a better edge 2. The barbers might have it professionally sharpened, so that it's a better edge than the mass-production facilities at Gillette
Dilb Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 738

14th May 2005, 01:28 PM	#4
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Quote: Originally posted by ma1ic3 -------------------------------------- I don't think THAT would even be able to cut a weiner in half! This illustration shows to me how a thick bladed knife or razor comes to a point. The angle is steeper. If the angle is steeper, it can't be as sharp. I think this is some law of physics. Now if you could do a blow up of the thin safety razor please?
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

14th May 2005, 01:41 PM	#5
Beanbag Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dallas/Fort Worth Posts: 2,709	A straight razor is hollow-ground to a progressively thinner edge. The "business end" has a shallower taper than a regular razor blade. The design has something to do with who is actually using the razor. Safety razors are designed for people to shave themselves, while a straight razor is for when you're shaving someone else. Think about it -- straight razors were designed when mirrors were both uncommon and pretty poor quality. You went to the barber to get shaved. They're like scissors in that the design has been evolved over thousands of years. What you end up with is a device that fits the hand well, is easy to maneuver over somebody else's face, and can be resharpened in a few seconds by working it over a leather strop. The funny thing is that you can hand any teenage kid a safety razor for the first time and be reasonably certain that they won't do too much damage to their face except for a few nicks. Hand them a straight razor, and you're talking band-aids, plus maybe a few stitches. Shaving yourself succesfully with a straight razor is an acquired skill. Regards; Beanbag
	__________________ Nothing divides an indivisible nation quite as well as religion. Know god, no peace. No god, know peace. If Jesus is the answer, it must be a real dumb question.

14th May 2005, 02:27 PM	#7
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Re: Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors? Quote: Originally posted by Iamme How? How can this be? Who sez it is? An old-fashioned barber's blade is nowhere near as sharp as a razor blade. The new ones, modern ones, only appear as if they have permanent blades but generally they don't. They have disposable inserts that fit halfway down the center of the blade. Like this: replacements:

14th May 2005, 12:54 PM	#3
ma1ic3 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Layton, Utah Posts: 359

14th May 2005, 02:19 PM	#6
ma1ic3 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Layton, Utah Posts: 359	Quote: Originally posted by Iamme I don't think THAT would even be able to cut a weiner in half! I hope you're not talking about the big one, because I could cut you in half with that.

14th May 2005, 02:41 PM	#8
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	They aren't. I own a modern straight razor made in Germany, and although it's fun, there's just no way that it's going to be sharper than a razor blade out of the box. Even most barbers who use straight razors use special ones with replaceable blades these days.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

14th May 2005, 03:42 PM	#9
ma1ic3 Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Layton, Utah Posts: 359	Quote: Originally posted by lamme The angle is steeper. If the angle is steeper, it can't be as sharp. I think this is some law of physics. Ok, I think the illustration below shows what you're talking about. Blades break the skin easily because when you push it up against the skin, kinetic energy is transfered to a very small area, which makes it more intense. The less metal surface that your skin comes in contact with, the more intense this transfer will be. I think intensity equals power/area. The deeper you cut into something, the more the angle of the blade will cause the intensity to drop. The less a blade goes into something, the less of a difference the angle will make. The first row shows them going in deep, the one with the steepest angle comes in contact with 15.1 times more skin than the razor below. This number drops down to 8.5 in the second column where the blades aren't going in as deep.

16th May 2005, 05:21 AM	#10
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	With any cutting edge there's a trade off between sharpness and wear. A very fine edge gets blunt very fast- possibly at first contact. A slightly blunter but thicker, or harder edge will last longer between sharpenings. Safety razors are not resharpenable, so can't be thick bladed. Modern safety razors have blades so thin they warp under slight pressure- hence the rigid plastic supports. This has allowed addition of extra blades- but these must be staggered so they do not both touch the bristles at exactly the same time. If they did, the effect would be to require twice the pressure for the same cut. Multiple blades with rigid supports are easily plugged by cut hairs and soap. You can't win.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

16th May 2005, 05:50 AM	#11
Rob Lister Suspended Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 8,523	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam Multiple blades with rigid supports are easily plugged by cut hairs and soap. You can't win. Which is why they should develop a multiblade safety razor that has a little spring-loaded lever you can push to temporarily separate the blades so as to easily rinse out the gunk.

16th May 2005, 06:38 AM	#12
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Re: Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors? Quote: Originally posted by Iamme The barber's straight edge is a relatively thick bladed knife as opposed to the safety razors? Am I right? Well, I can't speak for a Barber's razor, as I have never been shaved by one, but I can suggest what might be the closest shave one can get using a safety razor -- and that's the Gillette M3Power razor. By far it's given me the best shave yet -- one that can go 48 hours and still look clean shaven. The trick seems to be a slower stroke (not slow -- slower) than normal. Yes, this is the one with the little AAA battery inside (which lasts almost indefinitely), and sounds like your average woo-woo claim. But I can't complain about the results. I even tried going back to their regular safety razor and can't get the same shave; even with brand new blades. They might just be onto something here.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

16th May 2005, 05:18 PM	#13
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Re: Re: Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors? Quote: Originally posted by Just thinking Well, I can't speak for a Barber's razor, as I have never been shaved by one, but I can suggest what might be the closest shave one can get using a safety razor -- and that's the Gillette M3Power razor. By far it's given me the best shave yet -- one that can go 48 hours and still look clean shaven. The trick seems to be a slower stroke (not slow -- slower) than normal. Yes, this is the one with the little AAA battery inside (which lasts almost indefinitely), and sounds like your average woo-woo claim. But I can't complain about the results. I even tried going back to their regular safety razor and can't get the same shave; even with brand new blades. They might just be onto something here. -------------------------------------------------------- Even if the shave is as smooth as a baby's butt...I don't think the fact that it lasts 48 hours has anything to do with anything other than the fact your whiskers don't grow very fast. My next door neighbor goes from clean shaven one weekend to looking like Grizzly Adams by the next weekend. I've never seen anything like it. He is one of those guys who is quite hairy all over, I might add. I use one of those triple track razors and shave against the grain with nothing more than soap (Dove, that has moisturizing creme in it), and I get a shave that is baby smooth. But by evening, my face has already started to feel like maybe 100 grit sandpaper.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

16th May 2005, 05:52 PM	#14
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Re: Re: Re: Are barber's straight edge razors sharper than safety razors? Quote: Originally posted by Iamme -------------------------------------------------------- Even if the shave is as smooth as a baby's butt...I don't think the fact that it lasts 48 hours has anything to do with anything other than the fact your whiskers don't grow very fast. Well, it certainly doesn't stay that smooth for so long with the regular razors -- more like 12-18 hours at most.
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

16th May 2005, 10:46 PM	#15
JSFolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Calgary, AB, GWN Posts: 397	It is entirely possible that a properly-maintained straight razor could be sharper than a safety razor. The key is that it be properly maintained, which does take some skill to learn how to do with a leather strop, and is why I imagine that the faux-straight razors shown earlier in this thread have come into fashion. I have a sharpening kit sitting next to me on the desk that can put a sharper edge on my pocket knife than most scalpels have. This topic is discussed in a bit of depth in this thread.. Bladeforums discussion Lots of these guys are fanatical about sharpness, so more info is as easy as a search.

17th May 2005, 12:29 PM	#16
Dan Beaird Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 342	Generally speaking a sharper edge can be put on a straight razor than that on a disposable right out of the box. The fact is that in terms of razors, those disposables aren't all that sharp. The reason is that, practically speaking, the sharper any edge is, the faster it will dull and the thin material of the disposables would dull so fast that they would be unusuable after a few strokes. There are questions about blade geometry and questions about blade materials that come into play, but straight razors are generally made of extremely high quality carbon steel. With the proper materials, equipment and training you can get the cutting edge down to a handfull of molecules across although something that sharp would also dull with a couple of strokes. Straight razors are not sharpened by using a strop, they are honed and polished. Honing is the process of realigning the edge where it has taken on imperfections caused by sharpening or use. Polishing takes away a miniscule portion of material and can restore the edge of a blade that is a bit dulled by use. In practice the leather strop is not a perfect implement for polishing a razor edge although it does suffice for the purposes of shaving. I would doubt anyone could finish an edge as sharp as a disposable razor using that technique. I don't sharpen straight razors, but I do keep an edge on a lot of knives used for leather work and have a little experience with sword polishing and knife sharpening. Oh, and yes you can shave yourself with a straight razor. My grandpa did it into his 70's, it was a fascinating and scary thing to watch. I never had the slightest wish to try.
	__________________ The best time to be a hero is when all the other chaps are dead, God rest 'em, and you can take the credit. H. Flashman V.C. K.C.O.B

17th May 2005, 01:49 PM	#17
Ririon Cool cat Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Trondheim, Norway Posts: 2,063	What? Nobody with access to a Scanning Electron Microscope? This would be some cool stuff to look at in a SEM. Barber's VS safety staight out of the box VS used once VS dull. (For those of you who have never used one, it's the microscopes that make those images of dustmites in too much detail.) Ririon
	__________________ Engineer by day, scientist by night.

18th May 2005, 12:06 AM	#18
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	Quote: Originally posted by ma1ic3 Blades break the skin easily because when you push it up against the skin, kinetic energy is transfered to a very small area, which makes it more intense. The less metal surface that your skin comes in contact with, the more intense this transfer will be. I think intensity equals power/area. I think it's more than that. Blades are essentially inclined planes. When you push a blade into the skin, you're exerting a force normal to the surface. But in order to cut, you have to push the skin away, that is, parallel to the surface. So the blade transform force in one direction into force in another. The sharper the blade, the greater the parallel to normal conversion ratio is, which means you don't need much force to push it in. Also, since sharp blades make it easier to push skin away, there's less of a need to push it in. Conversely, a dull blade causes more bruising, since the skin gets pushed in rather than away