20/20 tonight. Reserection of Jeebus is looked at

ViperVisor · 20th May 2005, 07:03 PM

clarsct · 20th May 2005, 07:09 PM

Hmmm.
Keep us posted on how 'accurate and balanced' they are.

DavidJames · 20th May 2005, 08:26 PM

Part of the way through, basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared.

What? you were expecting religious skepticism in the media

Edit - just finished watching. Basically it was a one hour commercial for Christianity.

Next week: A hour commercial for Da Vinci code.

Temporal Renegade · 21st May 2005, 07:28 PM

I missed the broadcast... did they mentioned if, when He was crucified, He could see His house from there?

Skeptic · 21st May 2005, 07:56 PM

Actually, Penn and Teller's ********! show discussed just this issue recently... complete with old bible films with a caption saying "ACTUAL FOOTAGE", and file photos of JPII with a running marquee, "If this man is dead by the time you watch this, just pretend we're making fun of the new guy".

Of course, they were--how shall we put this?--a bit more skeptical.

Skeptic · 21st May 2005, 07:59 PM

basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared.

My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be?

By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky.

Temporal Renegade · 21st May 2005, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared.

My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be?

By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky.

Well, of course! What else could it have been...?

Mycroft · 21st May 2005, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky.

Great. Now I can't stop thinking of the voice of Johnny Cash singing;

"Yippie yi Ohhhhh
Yippie yi yaaaaay
Ghost writers in the sky..."

Kerberos · 22nd May 2005, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidJames
Part of the way through, basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared.

Sounds like "who moved the stone" made into a movie.

Kerberos · 22nd May 2005, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic

My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be?

Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive.

Just thinking · 22nd May 2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kerberos
Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive.

Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him?

Mark · 22nd May 2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Just thinking
Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him?

Fertilizer.

dsm · 22nd May 2005, 02:15 PM

Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][*]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[*]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[*]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[*]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[*]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[*]and so on...[/list=1]

By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer.

Mark · 22nd May 2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dsm
Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][*]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[*]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[*]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[*]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[*]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[*]and so on...[/list=1]

By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer.

1. There is very little evidence in support of it. Christianity took off because of Emperor Constantine, not any objective, historical support for the beliefs.

2. The Bible is notoriously inaccurate as far as historical details. (Details upon request)

3. None that I have seen. If you know of any, I would be delighted to look at them.

4. I regard the Bible as a dangerous guide to anything. It is far too erratic and self contradictory..

5. With little to no corroborating evidence, I have to say it appears that we do know within the bounds of anything reasonable.

Kerberos · 22nd May 2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dsm
Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][*]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[*]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[*]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[*]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[*]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[*]and so on...[/list=1]

By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer.

1) I'm inclined to think that there was some sort of historical basis.

2) Doesn't that kind of follow from 1? Anyway to elaborate I think that there was a guy named Jesus who walked around at that time, but his deeds might very well be a mix of several persons with a good portion of pure fiction thrown in.

3) Not as far as I know.

4) Using common sense. If the Bible says something that physically impossible or contradicts known historical facts it probably didn't happen (the resurrection for example). If it's merely unlikely or doesn't match historical facts to much it's somewhat less improbable (Pilatus is described as a much nicer person in the Bible than by history, perhaps he had a good day, but probably it was to appease the Romans). If there's no particular reason to think it unlikely, then it might very well have happened, but we still don't know because we don't have any really reliable sources (Jesus was a carpenter, he had a disciple named Peter etc.).

5) No.

Kerberos · 22nd May 2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Just thinking
Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him?

Well he was the second incarnation of Jesus, but Dracula ate him and raised him as a vampire, before he could fulfil his destiny.

SezMe · 23rd May 2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark
Fertilizer.

Ya gotta fertilize concrete?

Art Vandelay · 23rd May 2005, 12:15 AM

I watched the beginning of the show, but after hearing the exact same things that I heard several times before (the Jews were expecting a military leader, not a spiritual one, the disciples were initially despairing at Jesus' death, but there was a mysterious turn around, blah blah blah). Didn't seem like there was anything new, just the standard evangelism.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeptic
By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky.

A similar thing happened to my shopping cart today. Fortunately, it had a Second Coming.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kerberos
[Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive.

The argument seems to be:
The actions of the disciples are completely illogical unless Jesus rose from the dead.
People never act in illogical ways.
Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead.

See any flaws in this argument?

Quote:

Originally posted by dsm
Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs.

Should we attempt to discard all of our previous determinations every time we read a new thread?

Kerberos · 23rd May 2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay

The argument seems to be:
The actions of the disciples are completely illogical unless Jesus rose from the dead.
People never act in illogical ways.
Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead.

See any flaws in this argument?

A few, but that's another argument. The argument I refer to goes more along the lines of:

If Jesus rose from the dead we wouldn't be able to find his body.
Bodies never disappear for other reasons than resurection.
We can't find his body.
Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead.
QED.

a_unique_person · 23rd May 2005, 02:40 AM

I had a second coming the other night, what does that make me?

Kerberos · 23rd May 2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I had a second coming the other night, what does that make me?

Blind?

Mark · 23rd May 2005, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SezMe
Ya gotta fertilize concrete?

If you want to cement the relationship.

BPSCG · 23rd May 2005, 07:02 AM

Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them.

Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad.

My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend.

Mark · 23rd May 2005, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them.

Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad.

My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend.

I bet he felt like a heel.

Kerberos · 23rd May 2005, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them.

Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad.

My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend.

And that shook the faith of an evangelical Christian? Evangelic Christians are usually quite good at ignoring anything that contradicts their world-view, and the similarity between Achilles and Jesus seems unimpressive even to me. First of all Achilles wasn't the son of a god, he was the son of a king (unless there is more than one version which is possible). Walking the earth like a man, but having god-like powers is pretty standard for mythological heroes (And what were Achillesâ€™ godlike powers except for invulnerability and being handy in a fight?). Being a Hero to his followers is pretty standard stuff too and being disrespectful to kings and dying tragically isn't particularly remarkable either. I really don't see any significant similarity between Jesus and Achilles.

BPSCG · 23rd May 2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kerberos
And that shook the faith of an evangelical Christian?

Yeah, that surprised me a little, too (maybe my friend was overstating the case - maybe the Christian just didn't have an answer handy, though I'm sure his friends would have helped him on that score later on).

Quote:

First of all Achilles wasn't the son of a god, he was the son of a king (unless there is more than one version which is possible).

Son of Zeus, IIRC, and Thetis, a sea nymph.

Quote:

(And what were Achillesâ€™ godlike powers except for invulnerability

What, that's not enough?

Quote:

I really don't see any significant similarity between Jesus and Achilles.

Point is, Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth isn't unique as a superhero who died to save the world. And I'm sure other mythologies have similar stories.

Skeptic · 23rd May 2005, 09:04 AM

(useless information mode)

(Okay, so I'm always in that mode)

Achilles was the sons or king Peleus, a mortal, and the nereid Thetis. (The Iliad opens with, "Muse, sing of the rage of Peleus' son, the source to Greece of so much woe..."). This is why he was mortal. A son of Zeus and a nereid would be immortal, like both his parents...

I'll bet you're mixing Achilles with another mortal yet more-than-human son of an immortal and a mortal: Hercales (or Hercules), son of Zeus and the mortal woman Alcmene.

BPSCG · 23rd May 2005, 09:12 AM

Okay, obviously I need to stop trying to work and play at the same time...

dsm · 23rd May 2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
Should we attempt to discard all of our previous determinations every time we read a new thread?

Perhaps not, but help a new person out by giving (at least) a little reasoning for the condemnation...

Kerberos · 23rd May 2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
Son of Zeus, IIRC, and Thetis, a sea nymph.

According to wikipedia Zeus was after her, but changed his mind after an oracle predicted that her son would be greater than his farther, and she got it on with the king of the Myrmidons instead and got Achilles.

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG

What, that's not enough?

I suppose it could be handy, but it's nothing like Jesus' god-like powers.

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
Point is, Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth isn't unique as a superhero who died to save the world. And I'm sure other mythologies have similar stories.

Perhaps but the resemblance between Jesus and Achilles strikes me as rather unimpressive. BTW did Achilles die to save the world? I though he died to "rescue" Helena.

Solitaire · 23rd May 2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dsm
Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?

I used to believe he did.

Quote:

Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?

No. Ironically it says he came from Nazareth a graveyard where no one lived.

Quote:

Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?

Nope. Only forgeries and apologetics.

Quote:

How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?

By looking at the evidence. My Jesus thread covers a lot on the subject.

Quote:

Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?

Absolute knowledge, no. But the abscence of quality evidence suggests
the tale was made up from bits and pieces of other stories floating around
the region at the time.

P.S. My sig line is getting more and more ironic...

Art Vandelay · 23rd May 2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dsm
Perhaps not, but help a new person out by giving (at least) a little reasoning for the condemnation...

Which condemnation in particular?

dsm · 23rd May 2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
Which condemnation in particular?

That wasn't directed at you in particular. It was just that the first several posts of this thread seemed to too quickly dismiss the show without providing any real reasoning. My counter started from an assumption that Jesus existed (I too quickly accepted the show's statements about the existense of Jesus) and tried to ask for points on where exactly the resurrection falls down. Naturally, if the existense of Jesus in the first place is questionable, then questioning the resurrection is superfluous.

The idea · 23rd May 2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Reserection of Jeebus is looked at

I've heard of ordinary erections, but I've never heard of a Res-erection.

I suppose that if those people have 20/20 vision, then they should have no trouble getting a good look at Jeebus' erection.

20th May 2005, 07:03 PM	#1
ViperVisor Student Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 44	20/20 tonight. Reserection of Jeebus is looked at
ViperVisor Student Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 44	__________________ "There's no such thing as haunted houses just haunted people." - Joe Nickell

20th May 2005, 07:09 PM	#2
clarsct Humor Impaired Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Cultural Desert Posts: 4,910	Hmmm. Keep us posted on how 'accurate and balanced' they are.
	__________________ When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics. Oh nonsense. Still not hugging you. -Kiless Forum Tosser and Skirt Chaser

20th May 2005, 08:26 PM	#3
DavidJames Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 7,088	Part of the way through, basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared. What? you were expecting religious skepticism in the media Edit - just finished watching. Basically it was a one hour commercial for Christianity. Next week: A hour commercial for Da Vinci code.
	__________________ I will no longer respond to those who choose to have tools of murder as their avatars. Everyone is a skeptic except, of course, for the stuff that they believe Beaver Hateman: Is your argument that human life loses value proportionate to the number of humans available? Malcolm Kirkpatrick: That's part of the argument. Value is determined by supply and demand.

21st May 2005, 07:28 PM	#4
Temporal Renegade Last of the Time Lords Join Date: May 2003 Location: University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople Posts: 1,893	I missed the broadcast... did they mentioned if, when He was crucified, He could see His house from there?
	__________________ "Attention please..... a child has been lost in the Tunnel of Goats......" .......FATHER TED

21st May 2005, 08:14 PM	#7
Temporal Renegade Last of the Time Lords Join Date: May 2003 Location: University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople Posts: 1,893	Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared. My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be? By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky. Well, of course! What else could it have been...?
	__________________ "Attention please..... a child has been lost in the Tunnel of Goats......" .......FATHER TED

21st May 2005, 07:56 PM	#5
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Actually, Penn and Teller's ********! show discussed just this issue recently... complete with old bible films with a caption saying "ACTUAL FOOTAGE", and file photos of JPII with a running marquee, "If this man is dead by the time you watch this, just pretend we're making fun of the new guy". Of course, they were--how shall we put this?--a bit more skeptical.

21st May 2005, 07:59 PM	#6
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared. My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be? By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky.

21st May 2005, 10:43 PM	#8
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,115	Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky. Great. Now I can't stop thinking of the voice of Johnny Cash singing; "Yippie yi Ohhhhh Yippie yi yaaaaay Ghost writers in the sky..."
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

22nd May 2005, 07:24 AM	#9
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by DavidJames Part of the way through, basically, the show accepts the premise that Jesus lived, was crucified, placed in a tomb and the body disappeared. Sounds like "who moved the stone" made into a movie.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

22nd May 2005, 07:28 AM	#10
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic My God--the body was missing! That's it, he just HAD to be the son of God who rose to heaven in glory from the grave after defeating Satan and breaking the gates of hell. I mean, what other possiblity could there possibly be? Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

22nd May 2005, 01:57 PM	#11
Just thinking Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 5,169	Quote: Originally posted by Kerberos Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive. Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him?
	__________________ Our greatest challenge is not just to ask the important questions, but to recognize the meaningless ones.

22nd May 2005, 02:08 PM	#12
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Quote: Originally posted by Just thinking Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him? Fertilizer.

22nd May 2005, 02:15 PM	#13
dsm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 970	Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[]and so on...[/list=1] By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer.
	__________________ DSM

22nd May 2005, 03:26 PM	#14
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Quote: Originally posted by dsm Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[]and so on...[/list=1] By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer. 1. There is very little evidence in support of it. Christianity took off because of Emperor Constantine, not any objective, historical support for the beliefs. 2. The Bible is notoriously inaccurate as far as historical details. (Details upon request) 3. None that I have seen. If you know of any, I would be delighted to look at them. 4. I regard the Bible as a dangerous guide to anything. It is far too erratic and self contradictory.. 5. With little to no corroborating evidence, I have to say it appears that we do know within the bounds of anything reasonable.

22nd May 2005, 11:47 PM	#15
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by dsm Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Come on, people, ask and answer some real questions:[list=1][]Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed?[]Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus?[]Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible?[]How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus?[]Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus?[]and so on...[/list=1] By the way, although slightly tilted due to the nature of the subject, the show did not really seem to accept any particular premise. To me, it merely seemed to ask questions of the whole thing, but within the bounds of what the people were likely to answer. 1) I'm inclined to think that there was some sort of historical basis. 2) Doesn't that kind of follow from 1? Anyway to elaborate I think that there was a guy named Jesus who walked around at that time, but his deeds might very well be a mix of several persons with a good portion of pure fiction thrown in. 3) Not as far as I know. 4) Using common sense. If the Bible says something that physically impossible or contradicts known historical facts it probably didn't happen (the resurrection for example). If it's merely unlikely or doesn't match historical facts to much it's somewhat less improbable (Pilatus is described as a much nicer person in the Bible than by history, perhaps he had a good day, but probably it was to appease the Romans). If there's no particular reason to think it unlikely, then it might very well have happened, but we still don't know because we don't have any really reliable sources (Jesus was a carpenter, he had a disciple named Peter etc.). 5) No.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

22nd May 2005, 11:49 PM	#16
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by Just thinking Come to think of it -- they never found Jimmy Hoffa either. What does that make him? Well he was the second incarnation of Jesus, but Dracula ate him and raised him as a vampire, before he could fulfil his destiny.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

23rd May 2005, 12:09 AM	#17
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,368	Quote: Originally posted by Mark Fertilizer. Ya gotta fertilize concrete?

23rd May 2005, 12:15 AM	#18
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	I watched the beginning of the show, but after hearing the exact same things that I heard several times before (the Jews were expecting a military leader, not a spiritual one, the disciples were initially despairing at Jesus' death, but there was a mysterious turn around, blah blah blah). Didn't seem like there was anything new, just the standard evangelism. Quote: Originally posted by Skeptic By the way, I lost a pen today. I put it RIGHT THERE on the table, and when I came back it was GONE! There is only one possibility. It had risen from the desk, broke the gates of writing utensils hell, and ascended in glory to the heavenly inkstand in the sky. A similar thing happened to my shopping cart today. Fortunately, it had a Second Coming. Quote: Originally posted by Kerberos [Yeah, it always amuses me when Christians claim that the fact that we can't find Jesus' body proves he was the son of god. At that point I usually point out that this "logic" would compel us to accept that Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) really was a vampire, yet for some reason they don't find that argument equally persuasive. The argument seems to be: The actions of the disciples are completely illogical unless Jesus rose from the dead. People never act in illogical ways. Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead. See any flaws in this argument? Quote: Originally posted by dsm Wait a sec. For a skeptical group, this group certainly seems to be starting with predetermined beliefs. Should we attempt to discard all of our previous determinations every time we read a new thread?

23rd May 2005, 12:48 AM	#19
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by Art Vandelay The argument seems to be: The actions of the disciples are completely illogical unless Jesus rose from the dead. People never act in illogical ways. Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead. See any flaws in this argument? A few, but that's another argument. The argument I refer to goes more along the lines of: If Jesus rose from the dead we wouldn't be able to find his body. Bodies never disappear for other reasons than resurection. We can't find his body. Therefore, Jesus must have risen from the dead. QED.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

23rd May 2005, 02:40 AM	#20
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,341	I had a second coming the other night, what does that make me?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

23rd May 2005, 03:26 AM	#21
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person I had a second coming the other night, what does that make me? Blind?
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

23rd May 2005, 06:38 AM	#22
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Quote: Originally posted by SezMe Ya gotta fertilize concrete? If you want to cement the relationship.

23rd May 2005, 07:02 AM	#23
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them. Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad. My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd May 2005, 07:06 AM	#24
Mark Former Spinal Tap Drummer Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,529	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them. Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad. My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend. I bet he felt like a heel.

23rd May 2005, 07:29 AM	#25
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG Friend of mine told me that while in college, he (unintentionally) shook the faith of an evangelical student, when he said he'd heard the story of a guy who was the son of (a) god, whose mother wasn't a goddess, but was somehow more than human. He walked the earth as a man, but clearly had god-like powers, and had no particular reverence for kings and princes. He was a hero to his followers, and though he died tragically for them, they ultimately prevailed over those who had wronged them. Guy's name was Achilles; you can read about him in The Iliad. My friend asked his evangelical buddy why he shouldn't consider the Jesus story to be just a rehashing of the Achilles legend. And that shook the faith of an evangelical Christian? Evangelic Christians are usually quite good at ignoring anything that contradicts their world-view, and the similarity between Achilles and Jesus seems unimpressive even to me. First of all Achilles wasn't the son of a god, he was the son of a king (unless there is more than one version which is possible). Walking the earth like a man, but having god-like powers is pretty standard for mythological heroes (And what were Achillesâ€™ godlike powers except for invulnerability and being handy in a fight?). Being a Hero to his followers is pretty standard stuff too and being disrespectful to kings and dying tragically isn't particularly remarkable either. I really don't see any significant similarity between Jesus and Achilles.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

23rd May 2005, 08:46 AM	#26
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Quote: Originally posted by Kerberos And that shook the faith of an evangelical Christian? Yeah, that surprised me a little, too (maybe my friend was overstating the case - maybe the Christian just didn't have an answer handy, though I'm sure his friends would have helped him on that score later on). Quote: First of all Achilles wasn't the son of a god, he was the son of a king (unless there is more than one version which is possible). Son of Zeus, IIRC, and Thetis, a sea nymph. Quote: (And what were Achillesâ€™ godlike powers except for invulnerability What, that's not enough? Quote: I really don't see any significant similarity between Jesus and Achilles. Point is, Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth isn't unique as a superhero who died to save the world. And I'm sure other mythologies have similar stories.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd May 2005, 09:04 AM	#27
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	(useless information mode) (Okay, so I'm always in that mode) Achilles was the sons or king Peleus, a mortal, and the nereid Thetis. (The Iliad opens with, "Muse, sing of the rage of Peleus' son, the source to Greece of so much woe..."). This is why he was mortal. A son of Zeus and a nereid would be immortal, like both his parents... I'll bet you're mixing Achilles with another mortal yet more-than-human son of an immortal and a mortal: Hercales (or Hercules), son of Zeus and the mortal woman Alcmene.

23rd May 2005, 09:12 AM	#28
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,556	Okay, obviously I need to stop trying to work and play at the same time...
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

23rd May 2005, 09:35 AM	#29
dsm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 970	Quote: Originally posted by Art Vandelay Should we attempt to discard all of our previous determinations every time we read a new thread? Perhaps not, but help a new person out by giving (at least) a little reasoning for the condemnation...
	__________________ DSM

23rd May 2005, 10:31 AM	#30
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG Son of Zeus, IIRC, and Thetis, a sea nymph. According to wikipedia Zeus was after her, but changed his mind after an oracle predicted that her son would be greater than his farther, and she got it on with the king of the Myrmidons instead and got Achilles. Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG What, that's not enough? I suppose it could be handy, but it's nothing like Jesus' god-like powers. Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG Point is, Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth isn't unique as a superhero who died to save the world. And I'm sure other mythologies have similar stories. Perhaps but the resemblance between Jesus and Achilles strikes me as rather unimpressive. BTW did Achilles die to save the world? I though he died to "rescue" Helena.
Kerberos Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,608	__________________ Bible code: A method for obtaining hidden messages from texts that contains none, for the purpose of predicting events after they happen. "When the facts are on you side, but the law is against you, stress the facts. When the law is on your side, but the facts are against you stress the law. When both the facts and the law is against you, pound the table and yell like hell". Laywer maxim

23rd May 2005, 10:59 AM	#31
Solitaire Neoclinus blanchardi Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Johnson City, Tennessee Posts: 1,735	Quote: Originally posted by dsm Do you personally believe Jesus actually existed? I used to believe he did. Quote: Is the Bible credible in its statements that there was a Jesus? No. Ironically it says he came from Nazareth a graveyard where no one lived. Quote: Are there other documents that corroborate what is said about Jesus in the Bible? Nope. Only forgeries and apologetics. Quote: How do you draw the line between what the Bible is credible on and what it is not credible on with respect to Jesus? By looking at the evidence. My Jesus thread covers a lot on the subject. Quote: Given that all this happened two millenia ago, can we ever really know what exactly happened with respect to Jesus? Absolute knowledge, no. But the abscence of quality evidence suggests the tale was made up from bits and pieces of other stories floating around the region at the time. P.S. My sig line is getting more and more ironic...
	__________________ GENERATION ∞: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

23rd May 2005, 02:55 PM	#32
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	Quote: Originally posted by dsm Perhaps not, but help a new person out by giving (at least) a little reasoning for the condemnation... Which condemnation in particular?

23rd May 2005, 03:28 PM	#33
dsm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 970	Quote: Originally posted by Art Vandelay Which condemnation in particular? That wasn't directed at you in particular. It was just that the first several posts of this thread seemed to too quickly dismiss the show without providing any real reasoning. My counter started from an assumption that Jesus existed (I too quickly accepted the show's statements about the existense of Jesus) and tried to ask for points on where exactly the resurrection falls down. Naturally, if the existense of Jesus in the first place is questionable, then questioning the resurrection is superfluous.
	__________________ DSM

23rd May 2005, 04:18 PM	#34
The idea Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,547	Re: 20/20 tonight. Reserection of Jeebus is looked at Quote: Reserection of Jeebus is looked at I've heard of ordinary erections, but I've never heard of a Res-erection. I suppose that if those people have 20/20 vision, then they should have no trouble getting a good look at Jeebus' erection.
	__________________ I resolve to neither provoke nor appease evil.