France to Reject EU Constitution...

[BPSCG]

...because it's not socialist enough...?

Quote:

France heads for political earthquake in EU vote

PARIS (Reuters) - France headed toward an electoral earthquake on Friday as polls showed voters were set to reject the European Union's constitution in a referendum and open the door to a period of political uncertainty.

Treaty supporters say rejection in Sunday's vote would kill the constitution and weaken France in Europe. Opponents say a "No" would force the EU to redraft the treaty, giving more protection for social services and workers.

Would someone on the east side of the Atlantic elaborate on this? The Post, as usual, gets more into the horse race than what's behind the story.

[crimresearch]

I'm wondering how long before some bEUrocrat suggests that the use of military force to 'protect the Union' is needed, by bringing these 'rogue nations' in line.

[richardm]

Well, apparently French opinion polls are rather unreliable indicators for this sort of thing, so I think we should wait and see... however, this will tell you more about it than I know.

[Charlie Monoxide]

You really gotta admire the contrariness of the French people. I'm use to their bastard offspring in Canada, aka Les Quebecois (of which I'm 50%, gene-wise). The French are like the yin and yang of Europe.

Charlie (as well as the annoying and likable analogy) Monoxide

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Well, apparently French opinion polls are rather unreliable indicators for this sort of thing, so I think we should wait and see... however, this will tell you more about it than I know.

Thanks - that was actually useful.

Interesting that the leftists/socialists and the right-wing nationalists both oppose it. In this country, that would be about the equivalent of Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan both opposing NAFTA.

Hmm, come to think of it...

[easycruise]

From the link..

One reason is that the government and president are unpopular - unemployment is running at 10% and the economy is in the doldrums.

Many voters on the left believe that the constitution will help to create an an ultra-free market economy within the EU. There are fears that this will undermine traditional French levels of social protection, and fuelling unemployment, as companies relocate their operations to other countries, where labour is cheaper

Leftists are an amusing bunch. They have a bad economy and high unemployment right now, but they have fears that if they do anything about it, it could get worse. Meanwhile they continue to ignore the much more successful U.S. economic model. That would be the one with the "ultra-free market economy", where unemployment is half of theirs and the economy is doing much better than theirs. Gotta love the French!

[Kerberos]

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
I'm wondering how long before some bEUrocrat suggests that the use of military force to 'protect the Union' is needed, by bringing these 'rogue nations' in line.

Don't hold your breath waiting - on second thought, if you're serious you probably should.

[Leif Roar]

Quote:

Originally posted by easycruise
Meanwhile they continue to ignore the much more successful U.S. economic model.

More successful by what particular standards? While France has currently lower per capita GDP, lower economic growth and higher unemployment than the US, it also has less of its population below the poverty line, a much better trade balance and no foreign debt.

Shouldn't the success of France's economic model really be measured by how well it has fullfilled the French goals for the economy, rather than yours?

[Darat]

Fingers crossed the French get it right and vote "non" however I wouldn’t be surprised it ends up like their last major referendum on a EU treaty and the "oui" vote wins by a couple of percent.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leif Roar
More successful by what particular standards? While France has currently lower per capita GDP, lower economic growth and higher unemployment than the US, it also has less of its population below the poverty line, a much better trade balance and no foreign debt.

Shouldn't the success of France's economic model really be measured by how well it has fullfilled the French goals for the economy, rather than yours?

True. The overriding question is what happens as the baby boomers retire and not only cease contributing but increase the drain on the economy (In France but in the rest of the EU and the US). The issue is not how things are today but how they will be tomorrow.

The French do seem touchy about having any of their gimmes reduced. I wonder what their attitude would be if they were really reduced. Does this ever get discussed in the French press(or in Italy or UK for that matter).

[El Greco]

At least they get to vote. Nobody is asking us (among many others) to vote. That alone is enough for me to admire the French. If nothing else, they have a much more vigilant democracy.

[easycruise]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leif Roar
More successful by what particular standards? While France has currently lower per capita GDP, lower economic growth and higher unemployment than the US, it also has less of its population below the poverty line, a much better trade balance and no foreign debt.

Shouldn't the success of France's economic model really be measured by how well it has fullfilled the French goals for the economy, rather than yours?

Your standards are amusing. Try this...Give me the worse trade balance and high foreign debt any day, so I can get the higher GDP, higher economic growth and much lower unemployment. I'll take that deal anyday. Which has a much more direct effect on the citizenry?

And your second paragraph is even more amusing. Are things that bad in France that they now settle for goals that range from bad to mediocre? Are you saying that 10% unemployment is perfectly OK because there are no homeless people? That's quite a sacrifice.

In addition, the following article about a Swedish study is quite revealing.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110005242

Here's a quote from that article.

""Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says.""

And the clincher...

""But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income.""

[Leif Roar]

Quote:

Originally posted by easycruise
Your standards are amusing. Try this...Give me the worse trade balance and high foreign debt any day, so I can get the higher GDP, higher economic growth and much lower unemployment. I'll take that deal anyday. Which has a much more direct effect on the citizenry?

Over which period of time? One can make the argument that a constant high foreign debt is unsustainable over time, and will at some point result in an economical backlash. Wether a low foreign debt is preferrable to high GDP and economic growth is then a matter of weighing the benefits of the high GDP and growth today, versus the expected or potential backlash tomorrow. It's really much the same as getting a personal bank loan: it can be good economic sense to do so, or it can be bad economic sense to do so. It depends.

Quote:

And your second paragraph is even more amusing. Are things that bad in France that they now settle for goals that range from bad to mediocre? Are you saying that 10% unemployment is perfectly OK because there are no homeless people? That's quite a sacrifice.

No, I'm saying that if (note the hypothetical if here) France's economical policy has been targetted at reducing the poverty, it would be erronous to judge it's success solely by the per capita GDP without considering the poverty level. In other words, to take per capia GDP and poverty levels as an example:

While both the US and France would like low unemployment and low poverty levels, the US might like low unemployment better than low poverty levels, while France might value things differently. It would then be simplistic to ignore the unemployment and only focus on the per capita GDP when evaluating the success of France's economic policy.