This forum is pathetic?

Bruce · 5th June 2005, 10:34 PM

We recently lost Ex Lion Tamer because the politics forum is supposedly overrun by "neocon ditto-heads" and "morons".

I've always had the impression that the politics forum is dominated by lefties and liberitarians. Let's figure this out once and for all with a totally non-scientific poll!

Hey, you want science, you go to the science forum. You want humor, you stay right here.

Zep · 5th June 2005, 10:41 PM

Yes, I do believe this forum has occasionally descended into pathos. Towards each other, it is em-pathy. All together, it is called sym-pathy.

Sorry, pathetic attempt at humour...

Cleon · 5th June 2005, 10:44 PM

Foul! Foul, I say!

First - I am definitely under "None of the Above." I am a leftist, but not a liberal. Certainly not a Democrat.

Second - many of our forum regulars are not American. Non-USAnians have completely different ideas of what "liberal," "conservative," etc. mean.

Therefore, your completely non-scientific poll isn't even close to being an accurate non-scientific poll.

So, foul!

Bruce · 5th June 2005, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon

Therefore, your completely non-scientific poll isn't even close to being an accurate non-scientific poll.

WudItellya?

You want humor, you stay right here!

For those of you who are Europeans:

You want humour, you stay right here, wanker!

Marquis de Carabas · 5th June 2005, 10:50 PM

My political beliefs tend more towards Mischievous Feline Despotism.

Dr Adequate · 5th June 2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce
I've always had the impression that the politics forum is dominated by lefties and liberitarians. Let's figure this out once and for all with a totally non-scientific poll!

All the decent people round here are totally oppressed by evil fascists like you. And Brucetta.

Marquis de Carabas · 5th June 2005, 10:57 PM

Whereas good fascists, like myself, only go in for 90% oppression.

Zep · 5th June 2005, 11:19 PM

Oh I dunno...

Maybe 85%??

OK, 80% tops.

Bruce · 6th June 2005, 05:57 AM

Where are all the evil neocons??

Oops, I just realised I forgot to include a "moron" option. Sorry about that.

BPSCG · 6th June 2005, 06:07 AM

You left out "right-wing-fascist-kneejerk-Bush-supporting-war-criminal-oppressor-of-the-poor-and-working-class-moron."

So I put down "neocon."

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 06:25 AM

Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here...

Does that make me a 'neocon'?

a_unique_person · 6th June 2005, 06:38 AM

Where's the "libertine" option.

Darat · 6th June 2005, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here...

Does that make me a 'neocon'?

No that makes you a liberal.

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
No that makes you a liberal.

I can't tell if your serious.

Since you're British, could you either twist your mustache, or give me a 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink'?

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Where's the "libertine" option.

Feeking dissolute again, a_u_p?

Darat · 6th June 2005, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
I can't tell if your serious.

Since you're British, could you either twist your mustache, or give me a 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink'?

Both of course, on the one hand I know how much you would love to be labelled "liberal" but on the other hand I think it is a shame the USA really has forgotten what "liberal" means in the sense of politics.

You could make a very strong argument that the most of the "Founding Fathers" were liberals and that the USA is the product of liberal principles and policies.

I think it would do your country good if, perhaps just before the religious ceremony, in your schools they children were instructed to chant 20 times every morning "Liberal does not mean left wing."

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Both of course, on the one hand I know how much you would love to be labelled "liberal" but on the other hand I think it is a shame the USA really has forgotten what "liberal" means in the sense of politics.

You could make a very strong argument that the most of the "Founding Fathers" were liberals and that the USA is the product of liberal principles and policies.

I think it would do your country good if, perhaps just before the religious ceremony, in your schools they children were instructed to chant 20 times every morning "Liberal does not mean left wing."

A good point not made often enough. Many conservative/libertarians also use the term "Jeffersonian liberal". The terms liberal and conservative must take into account the political climate at the time.

That said of course, nowadays in the US, liberal indeed does mean left wing...

Cleon · 6th June 2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak

That said of course, nowadays in the US, liberal indeed does mean left wing...

No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal.

Darat · 6th June 2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal.

A USA citizen is left wing? Right!

Jocko · 6th June 2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
You left out "right-wing-fascist-kneejerk-Bush-supporting-war-criminal-oppressor-of-the-poor-and-working-class-moron."

So I put down "neocon."

I don't think we need to get that specific, at least not until Ion gets out of the psych ward.

Jocko · 6th June 2005, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal.

Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well.

Manny · 6th June 2005, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here...

Does that make me a 'neocon'?

Actually, yes. The original Neocons were mostly socially liberal secular Jews who had a relatively hawkish view America's role in the world and who became disenchanted with what they perceived to be an increasing hostility in the Democratic party to an activist foreign policy and in particular to the military. They came to believe that the Republican party, which they believed at least had a constructive view of national defense and a more trusting and, frankly, patriotic feeling toward the military, was a much more likely place for their views to receive a fair hearing.

You know the saying that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged? An original neo-con is a liberal whose anticommunism was mugged.

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal.

That's not saying the same thing. It's a 'subset' thingee...

All modern liberals in the US are left-wing, but not all modern left-wingers in the US are liberal.

Darat · 6th June 2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well.

Good starting article can be found here:http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Pol

Quote:

...snip...

â€˜By definitionâ€™, Maurice Cranston rightly pointed out .... , â€˜a liberal is a man who believes in libertyâ€™ . In two different ways, liberals accord liberty primacy as a political value. First, liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in â€˜a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actionsâ€¦as they think fitâ€¦without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Manâ€™ .... Mill too argued that â€˜[T]he burden of proof is supposed to ith those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibitionâ€¦. The a priori assumption is in favour of freedomâ€¦â€™..... This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle ....: freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would limit freedom.

...snip...

The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle!

Jocko · 6th June 2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
That's not saying the same thing. It's a 'subset' thingee...

All modern liberals in the US are left-wing, but not all modern left-wingers in the US are liberal.

Depends on what the meaning off "is" is.

Sorry, cheap shot. I, for one, would like to know Cleon's distinctions between the two terms.

varwoche · 6th June 2005, 08:06 AM

It's probably safe to say that members familiar with my posts would consider me liberal and I have no objection, though I can point to a number of conservative positions I have taken on this forum.

I don't know what these words mean, and see little value in self-categorization regardless.

bjornart · 6th June 2005, 08:09 AM

I'm in de pendant.

Darat · 6th June 2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
That's not saying the same thing. It's a 'subset' thingee...

All modern liberals in the US are left-wing, but not all modern left-wingers in the US are liberal.

And from this distance we find this useful to distinguish between your "right" and "left" wings!

Cleon · 6th June 2005, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well.

For starters:

a) Liberals are anti-gun. I am not.
b) Liberals are vehemently pro-Israel. I am not.
c) Liberals are pro-drug war. I am not.
d) Liberals are pro-Democratic Party. I am not.
e) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-war. I am not.
f) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-Patriot Act. I am not.

Those are some of the differences when it comes to positions. In essence, I'm to the left of liberals.

Edited to add: And, unlike Liberals, I'm fully well aware that Clinton is/was a corrupt, mysogynistic douchebag.

Kodiak · 6th June 2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle!

Sorry, but that is no where near confusing enough..

As a conservative/libertarian, is it plain for all to see that it is I...that I am the one who is...that it would be myself who is...

What were we talking about?

Nucular · 6th June 2005, 08:50 AM

As a disaffected English socialist more used to moaning about the lack of proportional representation than actually putting together a coherent political argument, I hereby fail to vote.

BPSCG · 6th June 2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle!

...right along with conservatism.

I've never liked the term "liberal" to describe the left, because as you point out, that was not the original meaning of the word; it has simply been co-opted by the left. I suppose the intent was to grab the moral high ground - after all, in a democracy, who could be against "liberalism", the idea that the purpose of government is to protect human rights? Then, as basic human rights more and more became something people just took as a given, the original meaning of the word was forgotten, leaving the left in sole possession.

I find that when I occasionally use the term "liberal democracy," I have to be careful to explain that I don't mean a left-wing democracy. Sweden and the U.S., as different as they are, are both liberal; Cuba, as far left as it is, is not liberal.

IIRC, Lenin did something similar in naming his political party the Bolsheviks, which is derived from the Russian word for "majority." And his opposition allowed themselves to be called the mensheviks, or minority, probably one of the stupidest political blunders of all time.

Note: No, I'm not comparing today's "liberals" with Lenin, though today's leftists often love to tar the right with the term "fascist", to the point that that word, too, has lost its original meaning, and now means "anyone on the right that the left really hates."

Cleon · 6th June 2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
...right along with conservatism.

I've never liked the term "liberal" to describe the left, because as you point out, that was not the original meaning of the word; it has simply been co-opted by the left.

Except for the fact that it's usually the right using the word to disparage anyone remotely left-of-center (and even those who aren't, like Kerry), yiou have a point.

Quote:

IIRC, Lenin did something similar in naming his political party the Bolsheviks, which is derived from the Russian word for "majority." And his opposition allowed themselves to be called the mensheviks, or minority, probably one of the stupidest political blunders of all time.

The Bolsheviki and the Mensheviki were not separate parties, actually; they got their names from their respective sizes within the Russian Social-Democratic Labor Party (talk about naming blunders). Lenin's wing, the Bolsheviki, were the majority tendency in the Party, and the Mensheviki were the minority. Hence the names. It makes sense in context.

Quote:

Note: No, I'm not comparing today's "liberals" with Lenin, though today's leftists often love to tar the right with the term "fascist", to the point that that word, too, has lost its original meaning, and now means "anyone on the right that the left really hates."

Odd. I hear the word "socialist" lobbed at the Democratic Party rather often, but while I hear grumblings about similarities to 1930s Germany, I don't often hear Republicans called fascists just for being Republicans.

Bruce · 6th June 2005, 10:22 AM

There you have it.

8% Neocon
32% Liberal

Ex Lion Tamer was driven away by a tiny minority. He is officially a wiener.

BPSCG · 6th June 2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce
Ex Lion Tamer was driven away by a tiny minority. He is officially a wiener.

And we all know how accurate polls made up of self-selected samples are.

Bruce · 6th June 2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
And we all know how accurate polls made up of self-selected samples are.

Hey, you were given choices and an opportunity to vote. Are you attacking Democracy? Are you speaking out against your right to CHOOSE? I was handed a ballot with a list of candidates last year. I made a choice and you didn't hear me complain.

Ok, you heard me complain a LOT, but it's still better than communism.

Darat · 6th June 2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BPSCG
And we all know how accurate polls made up of self-selected samples are.

The figure normally given is that they are 64% accurate (+/- 3%).

Bruce · 6th June 2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
The figure normally given is that they are 64% accurate (+/- 3%).

, and the other 36% are just WRONG.

Cleon · 6th June 2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
The figure normally given is that they are 64% accurate (+/- 3%).

Ah, but that's leaving out the fact that 46.7% of all statistics are made up.

Batman Jr. · 6th June 2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce
We recently lost Ex Lion Tamer because the politics forum is supposedly overrun by "neocon ditto-heads" and "morons".

I've always had the impression that the politics forum is dominated by lefties and liberitarians. Let's figure this out once and for all with a totally non-scientific poll!

Hey, you want science, you go to the science forum. You want humor, you stay right here.

The few neocons that there are on this forum are especially prolific; Ex Lion Tamer was probably thrown off by that. If you look at just about every political poll taken on this forum, howeverâ€”and since participating in a poll is much quicker than posting up a new message and you don't get that skew that pervades much of the conversation on this boardâ€”the liberal view tends to be favored.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleon
For starters:

a) Liberals are anti-gun. I am not.
b) Liberals are vehemently pro-Israel. I am not.
c) Liberals are pro-drug war. I am not.
d) Liberals are pro-Democratic Party. I am not.
e) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-war. I am not.
f) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-Patriot Act. I am not.

If you're looking to John Kerry as a quintessential foot soldier for liberalism, you're just buying into Republican spin. He's actually probably a bit right of center, but compared to all of the far-right ideologues who dominate a great portion of the government right now, he seems like he's to the left.

And even though he originally supported the Patriot Act, you do have to give him at least some credit for coming to his senses later on. His allegiance to it was very tenuous.

Isn't it the conservative ideology that's usually associated with the "War on Drugs"?

5th June 2005, 10:34 PM	#1
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,524	This forum is pathetic? We recently lost Ex Lion Tamer because the politics forum is supposedly overrun by "neocon ditto-heads" and "morons". I've always had the impression that the politics forum is dominated by lefties and liberitarians. Let's figure this out once and for all with a totally non-scientific poll! Hey, you want science, you go to the science forum. You want humor, you stay right here.
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

5th June 2005, 10:41 PM	#2
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Yes, I do believe this forum has occasionally descended into pathos. Towards each other, it is em-pathy. All together, it is called sym-pathy. Sorry, pathetic attempt at humour...
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

5th June 2005, 10:44 PM	#3
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 13,915	Foul! Foul, I say! First - I am definitely under "None of the Above." I am a leftist, but not a liberal. Certainly not a Democrat. Second - many of our forum regulars are not American. Non-USAnians have completely different ideas of what "liberal," "conservative," etc. mean. Therefore, your completely non-scientific poll isn't even close to being an accurate non-scientific poll. So, foul!
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky **** cancer! My blog

5th June 2005, 10:47 PM	#4
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,524	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon *Therefore, your completely non-scientific poll isn't even close to being an accurate* non-scientific poll.** WudItellya? You want humor, you stay right here! For those of you who are Europeans: You want humour, you stay right here, wanker!
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

5th June 2005, 10:50 PM	#5
Marquis de Carabas Dark Lord of the Pith Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: beneath the vast indifference of heaven Posts: 21,976	My political beliefs tend more towards Mischievous Feline Despotism.
	__________________ All your brain chemistry is belong to me. -KateHL

5th June 2005, 10:55 PM	#6
Dr Adequate Professor Of The Bleedin' Obvious Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Waiting Long Enough By The River Posts: 17,598	Quote: Originally posted by Bruce I've always had the impression that the politics forum is dominated by lefties and liberitarians. Let's figure this out once and for all with a totally non-scientific poll! All the decent people round here are totally oppressed by evil fascists like you. And Brucetta.
	__________________ "It is a mark of insincerity of purpose to spend one's time in looking for the sacred Emperor in low-class teashops."

5th June 2005, 10:57 PM	#7
Marquis de Carabas Dark Lord of the Pith Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: beneath the vast indifference of heaven Posts: 21,976	Whereas good fascists, like myself, only go in for 90% oppression.
	__________________ All your brain chemistry is belong to me. -KateHL

5th June 2005, 11:19 PM	#8
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230	Oh I dunno... Maybe 85%?? OK, 80% tops.
Zep Guest Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24,230

6th June 2005, 05:57 AM	#9
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,524	Where are all the evil neocons?? Oops, I just realised I forgot to include a "moron" option. Sorry about that.
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

6th June 2005, 06:07 AM	#10
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,567	You left out "right-wing-fascist-kneejerk-Bush-supporting-war-criminal-oppressor-of-the-poor-and-working-class-moron." So I put down "neocon."
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

6th June 2005, 06:25 AM	#11
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here... Does that make me a 'neocon'?
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 06:38 AM	#12
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sitting in the ghostly glow of an LCD screen Posts: 26,944	Where's the "libertine" option.
	__________________ "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." SH Roberts " Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it." Monbiot "I am not the fine man you take me for"

6th June 2005, 06:48 AM	#13
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,894	Quote: Originally posted by Kodiak Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here... Does that make me a 'neocon'? No that makes you a liberal.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th June 2005, 06:54 AM	#14
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Quote: Originally posted by Darat No that makes you a liberal. I can't tell if your serious. Since you're British, could you either twist your mustache, or give me a 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink'?
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 06:55 AM	#15
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Quote: Originally posted by a_unique_person Where's the "libertine" option. Feeking dissolute again, a_u_p?
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 07:10 AM	#16
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,894	Quote: Originally posted by Kodiak I can't tell if your serious. Since you're British, could you either twist your mustache, or give me a 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink'? Both of course, on the one hand I know how much you would love to be labelled "liberal" but on the other hand I think it is a shame the USA really has forgotten what "liberal" means in the sense of politics. You could make a very strong argument that the most of the "Founding Fathers" were liberals and that the USA is the product of liberal principles and policies. I think it would do your country good if, perhaps just before the religious ceremony, in your schools they children were instructed to chant 20 times every morning "Liberal does not mean left wing."
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th June 2005, 07:40 AM	#17
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Quote: Originally posted by Darat Both of course, on the one hand I know how much you would love to be labelled "liberal" but on the other hand I think it is a shame the USA really has forgotten what "liberal" means in the sense of politics. You could make a very strong argument that the most of the "Founding Fathers" were liberals and that the USA is the product of liberal principles and policies. I think it would do your country good if, perhaps just before the religious ceremony, in your schools they children were instructed to chant 20 times every morning "Liberal does not mean left wing." A good point not made often enough. Many conservative/libertarians also use the term "Jeffersonian liberal". The terms liberal and conservative must take into account the political climate at the time. That said of course, nowadays in the US, liberal indeed does mean left wing...
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 07:41 AM	#18
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 13,915	Quote: Originally posted by Kodiak *That said of course, nowadays in the US, liberal indeed does* mean left wing...** No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky **** cancer! My blog

6th June 2005, 07:51 AM	#19
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,894	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal. A USA citizen is left wing? Right!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th June 2005, 07:51 AM	#20
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG You left out "right-wing-fascist-kneejerk-Bush-supporting-war-criminal-oppressor-of-the-poor-and-working-class-moron." So I put down "neocon." I don't think we need to get that specific, at least not until Ion gets out of the psych ward.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

6th June 2005, 07:52 AM	#21
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal. Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

6th June 2005, 07:57 AM	#22
Manny Illuminator Join Date: May 2005 Location: New York, New York, it's a helluva town. Posts: 3,295	Quote: Originally posted by Kodiak Hawkish Atheist Conservative/Libertarian here... Does that make me a 'neocon'? Actually, yes. The original Neocons were mostly socially liberal secular Jews who had a relatively hawkish view America's role in the world and who became disenchanted with what they perceived to be an increasing hostility in the Democratic party to an activist foreign policy and in particular to the military. They came to believe that the Republican party, which they believed at least had a constructive view of national defense and a more trusting and, frankly, patriotic feeling toward the military, was a much more likely place for their views to receive a fair hearing. You know the saying that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged? An original neo-con is a liberal whose anticommunism was mugged.

6th June 2005, 07:59 AM	#23
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Quote: Originally posted by Cleon No, it doesn't. I'm left-wing, I'm not a liberal. That's not saying the same thing. It's a 'subset' thingee... All modern liberals in the US are left-wing, but not all modern left-wingers in the US are liberal.
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 08:03 AM	#24
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,894	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well. Good starting article can be found here:http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Pol Quote: ...snip... â€˜By definitionâ€™, Maurice Cranston rightly pointed out .... , â€˜a liberal is a man who believes in libertyâ€™ . In two different ways, liberals accord liberty primacy as a political value. First, liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in â€˜a State of perfect Freedom to order their Actionsâ€¦as they think fitâ€¦without asking leave, or depending on the Will of any other Manâ€™ .... Mill too argued that â€˜[T]he burden of proof is supposed to ith those who are against liberty; who contend for any restriction or prohibitionâ€¦. The a priori assumption is in favour of freedomâ€¦â€™..... This might be called the Fundamental Liberal Principle ....: freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would limit freedom. ...snip... The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

6th June 2005, 08:04 AM	#25
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, Chicago... it's a toddling town. Posts: 5,463	Quote: Originally posted by Kodiak That's not saying the same thing. It's a 'subset' thingee... All modern liberals in the US are left-wing, but not all modern left-wingers in the US are liberal. Depends on what the meaning off "is" is. Sorry, cheap shot. I, for one, would like to know Cleon's distinctions between the two terms.
	__________________ You claimed that a turd is a turd. I clearly demonstrated that some turds are gold. You're wrong, Jocko. KOA proving me "wrong."

6th June 2005, 08:06 AM	#26
varwoche Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 5,063	It's probably safe to say that members familiar with my posts would consider me liberal and I have no objection, though I can point to a number of conservative positions I have taken on this forum. I don't know what these words mean, and see little value in self-categorization regardless.
	__________________ GW Evidence

6th June 2005, 08:09 AM	#27
bjornart Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,465	I'm in de pendant.
	__________________ Well, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU LIKE TO BELIEVE, GODDAMMIT! I DEAL IN THE FACTS! -Cecil Adams

6th June 2005, 08:13 AM	#29
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 13,915	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko Could you explain the difference? I'm confused as well. For starters: a) Liberals are anti-gun. I am not. b) Liberals are vehemently pro-Israel. I am not. c) Liberals are pro-drug war. I am not. d) Liberals are pro-Democratic Party. I am not. e) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-war. I am not. f) Liberals, like John Kerry, are pro-Patriot Act. I am not. Those are some of the differences when it comes to positions. In essence, I'm to the left of liberals. Edited to add: And, unlike Liberals, I'm fully well aware that Clinton is/was a corrupt, mysogynistic douchebag.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky **** cancer! My blog

6th June 2005, 08:20 AM	#30
Kodiak Ursus arctos middendorffi Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastpointe Posts: 3,115	Quote: Originally posted by Darat The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle! Sorry, but that is no where near confusing enough.. As a conservative/libertarian, is it plain for all to see that it is I...that I am the one who is...that it would be myself who is... What were we talking about?
	__________________ "The path you take is not as important as the way you travel it. Science and logic are man's best tools when walking the path of truth because, unlike religion, science and logic have no stake in the destination." c0rbin: "All those waging fingers from the sideline might mean something if the hands behind them did more than moralize." They say the meek shall inherit the Earth. They're wrong. The resilient and versatile will...

6th June 2005, 08:50 AM	#31
Nucular Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Brane 6, Brahman's Dream Posts: 3,038	As a disaffected English socialist more used to moaning about the lack of proportional representation than actually putting together a coherent political argument, I hereby fail to vote.
	__________________ From the UK? Sceptical? Like forums? Well my psychic powers tell me that the UK Skeptics' Forum is for you - 8 out of 10 sceptics demand to know where these figures came from. Non sunt in coeli, quia fvccant vvivys of heli (Flen Flyys, c.15th Century) Get out of my head, Nucular (kmortis)

6th June 2005, 09:02 AM	#32
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,567	Quote: Originally posted by Darat The only meaningful way liberalism can be considered "left wing" is that it is in opposition to "right wing" policies which have traditionally been held as "Conservative" policies, if you consider a spectrum of fascism (extreme right wing) to communism (extreme left wing) then liberalism is in the middle! ...right along with conservatism. I've never liked the term "liberal" to describe the left, because as you point out, that was not the original meaning of the word; it has simply been co-opted by the left. I suppose the intent was to grab the moral high ground - after all, in a democracy, who could be against "liberalism", the idea that the purpose of government is to protect human rights? Then, as basic human rights more and more became something people just took as a given, the original meaning of the word was forgotten, leaving the left in sole possession. I find that when I occasionally use the term "liberal democracy," I have to be careful to explain that I don't mean a left-wing democracy. Sweden and the U.S., as different as they are, are both liberal; Cuba, as far left as it is, is not liberal. IIRC, Lenin did something similar in naming his political party the Bolsheviks, which is derived from the Russian word for "majority." And his opposition allowed themselves to be called the mensheviks, or minority, probably one of the stupidest political blunders of all time. Note: No, I'm not comparing today's "liberals" with Lenin, though today's leftists often love to tar the right with the term "fascist", to the point that that word, too, has lost its original meaning, and now means "anyone on the right that the left really hates."
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

6th June 2005, 09:34 AM	#33
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 13,915	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG ...right along with conservatism. I've never liked the term "liberal" to describe the left, because as you point out, that was not the original meaning of the word; it has simply been co-opted by the left. Except for the fact that it's usually the right using the word to disparage anyone remotely left-of-center (and even those who aren't, like Kerry), yiou have a point. Quote: IIRC, Lenin did something similar in naming his political party the Bolsheviks, which is derived from the Russian word for "majority." And his opposition allowed themselves to be called the mensheviks, or minority, probably one of the stupidest political blunders of all time. The Bolsheviki and the Mensheviki were not separate parties, actually; they got their names from their respective sizes within the Russian Social-Democratic Labor Party (talk about naming blunders). Lenin's wing, the Bolsheviki, were the majority tendency in the Party, and the Mensheviki were the minority. Hence the names. It makes sense in context. Quote: Note: No, I'm not comparing today's "liberals" with Lenin, though today's leftists often love to tar the right with the term "fascist", to the point that that word, too, has lost its original meaning, and now means "anyone on the right that the left really hates." Odd. I hear the word "socialist" lobbed at the Democratic Party rather often, but while I hear grumblings about similarities to 1930s Germany, I don't often hear Republicans called fascists just for being Republicans.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky **** cancer! My blog

6th June 2005, 10:22 AM	#34
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,524	There you have it. 8% Neocon 32% Liberal Ex Lion Tamer was driven away by a tiny minority. He is officially a wiener.
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

6th June 2005, 10:31 AM	#35
BPSCG Cannibal Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Looting Fafner's Cave Posts: 17,567	Quote: Originally posted by Bruce Ex Lion Tamer was driven away by a tiny minority. He is officially a wiener. And we all know how accurate polls made up of self-selected samples are.
	__________________ Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia.

6th June 2005, 10:37 AM	#36
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,524	Quote: Originally posted by BPSCG And we all know how accurate polls made up of self-selected samples are. Hey, you were given choices and an opportunity to vote. Are you attacking Democracy? Are you speaking out against your right to CHOOSE? I was handed a ballot with a list of candidates last year. I made a choice and you didn't hear me complain. Ok, you heard me complain a LOT, but it's still better than communism.
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta