For religious folks: Why do you pray?

El_Spectre · 15th June 2005, 09:12 PM

I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question:

If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray?

To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever....

I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused.

Thanks for your time.

Alkatran · 15th June 2005, 09:17 PM

This sounds kind of like the whole "Why do psychics need to you schedule?" question (because you aren't psychic and would pop up at the wrong time, of course)

I suppose you could say the same thing of praying: you don't appreciate it if you don't ask for it?

joyrex · 16th June 2005, 02:20 AM

Praying.. If I did that, it would be more like making the connection stronger rather than asking for something. Tuning in to God's wishes.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 16th June 2005, 05:50 AM

So praying is a form of adulation?

~~ Paul

jmercer · 16th June 2005, 08:44 AM

Because it makes me feel better. And who knows? "Perhaps the horse will learn to sing."

I occasionally pray for assistance, or pray for someone else's comfort, or well-being, or whatever I think is needed. Then I go do whatever is humanly possible for me to do (too damned little for me, at times), because that's my obligation as a fellow human being. I don't just "toss it in God's lap" and forget about it... unless there's absolutely nothing I can do other than say a prayer.

So, yeah, I'll ask God for help. Why not? I write politicians for help about situations, too - but I don't count on getting it any more than I count on retiring every time I play Lotto.

Hope12 · 16th June 2005, 08:54 AM

We all undergo many problems and difficulties in life. Prayer draws our attention away from the problem at hand and draws us closer to our Creator. Prayer comfort me. If one is comfort by a mate or loved one, then they can understand the comfort that prayer brings. Those of us who believe in God as our heavenly father and Creator, feel that comfort knowing that he is almighty and can handle what the person praying can not handle. Faith is needed and a close relationship with God in order for prayer to be comforting. Remember to as the almighty God of the universe God can deal with what ever problems we face in today's world. Just like we would speak with someone who we love, such as a mate or parent, we who love God, speak or communicate with our heavenly parent, God.

You probably can not understand that because it is something very special and one needs to believe with their whole heart that he hears us talk with him. He of course does not answer us verbally but God can answer us in other ways.

We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life.

Take care,
Hope12

Lee · 16th June 2005, 08:59 AM

Firstly,

I don't know if God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan. I believe that a Creative Force exists. Some of my prayers are addressed in the way that I requested. Three prayers have been addressed almost immediately. I believe the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you want something you need to let that be known.

Secondly,

I find that praying (for me at least) tends to be calming. I feel more centered and at peace. In that state, I find it easier to deal with the stresses of life.

My two cents.

Iacchus · 16th June 2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. ~ Matthew 6:5-8

zakur · 16th June 2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I always think of this verse when I catch the nuns on EWTN praying the rosary. That's some mind-numbing TV right there.

zakur · 16th June 2005, 09:24 AM

Here's a manual: Christian Prayer for Dummies

Quote:

Do you want to pray, but youâ€™re not sure how? This friendly guide explains the different kinds of prayer â€“ revealing how and why to pray and how to discern Godâ€™s answers. Youâ€™ll see how to overcome hindrances, how to use a journal, and how to pray on your own. Discover what "Thy will be done" means and how to approach prayers that seemingly havenâ€™t been answered.

The Dummies Way

Explanations in plain English
"Get in, get out" information
Icons and other navigational aids
Tear-out cheat sheet
Top ten lists
A dash of humor and fun

Z · 16th June 2005, 09:48 AM

For my own part, I don't think the Divine has some 'Master Plan', nor do I think the Divine is 'all-knowing'. Further, I think the Divine is limited to what is probable - however improbable - and not to what is impossible.

For me, prayer is more of a personal event - an affirmation of my own needs and desires, that provides a sort of focus point in my memory. Plus, maybe, in some small way, by praying, I increase the chance that a slim probability will manifest in my favor.

Plus it feels interesting to pray. Ah, the power of self-delusion maybe? Hey, if sugar pills can cure back aches, why not prayer?

flipside · 16th June 2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hope12
We all undergo many problems and difficulties in life. Prayer draws our attention away from the problem at hand and draws us closer to our Creator. Prayer comfort me. If one is comfort by a mate or loved one, then they can understand the comfort that prayer brings. Those of us who believe in God as our heavenly father and Creator, feel that comfort knowing that he is almighty and can handle what the person praying can not handle. Faith is needed and a close relationship with God in order for prayer to be comforting. Remember to as the almighty God of the universe God can deal with what ever problems we face in today's world. Just like we would speak with someone who we love, such as a mate or parent, we who love God, speak or communicate with our heavenly parent, God.

You probably can not understand that because it is something very special and one needs to believe with their whole heart that he hears us talk with him. He of course does not answer us verbally but God can answer us in other ways.

We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life.

Take care,
Hope12

Is it like calling the plumber after you've done everything possible to fix the leak?This plumber has been referred to you by someone else and his policy is to never return calls.You don't know when or if he will come to fix your pipes,but you know definately that his answer is yes,no or maybe.Now transfer this to praying for a good mark on an exam.Would you pray and never open a book?If you get a good mark,glory be to god.If you fail whose fault is it.I've found that Zeus answers prayer in much the same way.

El_Spectre · 16th June 2005, 11:00 AM

So, y'all pray because it makes you feel better, not to actually request god changes anything?

Gestahl · 16th June 2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question:

If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray?

For those praying for material/wordly things, we see the amazing hubris of the religious, who pretend to be humble. It's because they think that they have God's favor, and that because they follow him, that they deserve earthly rewards. Some people believe that God's favor is in the form of material success on earth, that they might do good in His name. Never do they consider He should be the arbiter of who deserves what, and certainly shouldn't need you as a proxy to spread His cause. But its all OK, as long as you add "Thy will be done"... as if any other outcome were possible.

Quote:

To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever....

I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused.

Thanks for your time.

Jesus can't seem to give a prayer that does anything logical or useful, if one truly believes what they profess. Let's break down that old chestnut, the Lord's Prayer, taken from Matthew 6, KJV:

Quote:

9 Our Father
which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.

Useless and syncophantic adoration. According to the Bible, even the rocks and the trees will call out unto Him. Nature itself proclaims His power and honor, as does our existence. Your actions hallow him, not your words. I can imagine God going "yes, yes, I rock... get on with it."

Quote:

10 Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
in earth, as it is in heaven.

As if some alternative could even be the case. God's response "It always has been..."

Quote:

11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors.

God proclaims that there is not a sparrow that falls to the ground unnoticed, and that he will provide for us. Why ask for that which is promised? Do we not trust him? Furthermore, He supposedly forgives us of all future and past sins by the blood of Christ: not by the forgiveness we give others. God's response: "Sure thing... I was already doing that, but OK."

Quote:

13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil:

God tempts us? Not according to the Bible. God, furthermore, cannot deliver us from evil if we have free will, the evil is ours to avoid and to not create. Not to mention the hubris of not ever thinking that it may be your lot to suffer and be tempted (see Job). God's response: "You let me be the judge of what I lead you into and deliver you unto. I am omniscient and all..."

Quote:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Way to tell the omnipotent what he already knows, and what you already believe. However, by all the previous parts of the prayer, it seems to me you don't really think that at all: you see him as something that must be pleaded with, mollified, and fearfully revered... hardly some omnibenevolent God that, by grace, gives us freely what we could never deserve. God's response "I wish you would truly take that to heart."

You want a real prayer? One that actually takes all the reality of the Christian's belief at face value? In modern vernacular:

Quote:

Dear God,

Thanks. Let me know what I can do.

If you truly believe, there is nothing else to say, no matter what may happen: simple, honest, gratitude and willing submission.

/feeling particularly ornery today
//ETA: formatting

jmercer · 16th June 2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
So, y'all pray because it makes you feel better, not to actually request god changes anything?

Nope, I do both. Then I get on with the job of doing something about it, because I'm never gonna sit on my arse and hope someone else does my work for me.

jmercer · 16th June 2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gestahl
God tempts us? Not according to the Bible.

Sure He does. Garden of Eden? "Hey, here's this Tree of Knowledge - don't touch it, kids!"

Then there's the book of Job:

Quote:

1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
2: And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.
3: His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
4: And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
5: And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9: Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10: Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11: But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
13: And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
14: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
16: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
18: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
20: Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
21: And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
22: In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

So while God Himself didn't do the tempting, he sent Satan (the ultimate tempter!) down to do his dirty work for Him... effectively leading Job into temptation. Kinda makes you wonder about their working relationship, doesn't it?

El_Spectre · 16th June 2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmercer
Nope, I do both. Then I get on with the job of doing something about it, because I'm never gonna sit on my arse and hope someone else does my work for me.

The thrust if my question is, if you pray for things to change, doesn't this mean that God got it wrong the first time?

jmercer · 16th June 2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
The thrust if my question is, if you pray for things to change, doesn't this mean that God got it wrong the first time?

Only if you believe God actively controls everything and we have nothing to say about it. If you believe in free will, though, then it's not God that got it wrong.

And if God created a casual universe, there will be natural events that affect us because of our choices, such as living location, etc.

Gestahl · 16th June 2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmercer
Sure He does. Garden of Eden? "Hey, here's this Tree of Knowledge - don't touch it, kids!"

Then there's the book of Job:

These can be interpreted as to whether God tempted. I am going off of the direct, plain statement from James 1:13.

jmercer · 16th June 2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gestahl
These can be interpreted as to whether God tempted. I am going off of the direct, plain statement from James 1:13.

Hm... ok.

Just so long as you don't mind me pointing out that God - who is omniscient - took the time to put the tree in the center of the garden, left it unguarded (where was that angel with the fiery sword when we needed him?

), and then specifically pointed out the ONLY thing in the entire garden that a couple of naive and innocent "children" couldn't touch.

Then He walked away.

Sounds to me like He deliberately placed temptation in their reach and then pointed it out to 'em... a very close match for "leading into temptation", I'd say.

Gestahl · 16th June 2005, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmercer
Hm... ok.

Just so long as you don't mind me pointing out that God - who is omniscient - took the time to put the tree in the center of the garden, left it unguarded (where was that angel with the fiery sword when we needed him? ), and then specifically pointed out the ONLY thing in the entire garden that a couple of naive and innocent "children" couldn't touch.

Then He walked away.

Sounds to me like He deliberately placed temptation in their reach and then pointed it out to 'em... a very close match for "leading into temptation", I'd say.

I agree fully, and that would be my thoughts as well, make no mistake. I am not arguing per se... I think the Bible is contradictory and makes no real sense at all. I think the God portrayed and proclaimed is wholly in contrast to his supposed attributes. Suffice to say that that verse and interpretation was convenient at the time to use... strange how the people that actually believe do the same (quote what is convenient)... the difference being I know I am doing it, and do it because they are the ones that must reconcile their tangled beliefs... not I ;-).

SuperCoolGuy · 16th June 2005, 04:31 PM

I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays.

Call it a psychological safety blanket humans tend to cling to when there's nothing else.

El_Spectre · 16th June 2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy
I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays.

Call it a psychological safety blanket humans tend to cling to when there's nothing else.

I'd call it an unfounded claim, actually. It's like those condescending folks who responded to my atheism with "well, you're young... you've still got time, you'll see"

Penn Jillette wrote an interesting essay (what we'd now call a blog, I guess) on his website about being in a plane that looked likely to crash... and noted that he didn't pray.

Personally, last year I was nearly stuck on top of a mountain at night... freezing and/or cougar/bear attack were very real possibilities. As the sun set, did I pray? Nope, I weighed the options and risks, then made a decision (risky cross country hike/slide down a 2000 foot slope) and survived.

No god required

Incidently, I almost stepped on a snake... it was biology - cold air + reptile = slow snake - that saved my butt, not god

Finally, you might be interested in the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. Apparently there ARE atheists in foxholes.

(edited cuz I screwed up a coupla times)

SuperCoolGuy · 16th June 2005, 05:15 PM

The book is called Deep Survival.

Note I said "tend to". I personally don't believe every single atheist prays when faced with a life threatening situation.

But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray? Basically, who cares. Some people pray, some people don't. Some atheists MIGHT pray, others won't under any circumstances.

But whatever the situation, prayer without proper usage of the ole neo-cortex usually ends badly. So, to paraphrase George Washington, do what you can, and leave the rest to providence (God, luck, etc)

El_Spectre · 16th June 2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy
The book is called Deep Survival.
Note I said "tend to". I personally don't believe every single atheist prays when faced with a life threatening situation.

Yeah, but the statement started with "everyone". Can't have it both ways.

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy
But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray?

I can't guarantee anything. This whole sketicism thing isn't about assurances.

Nor is it about proving negatives...

Some people pray, some of us don't. I'm curious about WHY, and have attempted not to be condescending. I would ask the same in return.

SuperCoolGuy · 16th June 2005, 05:50 PM

To answer your question, it seems people think God's plan can change if the indivdual only asks. I guess, God sets things in motion, but should something come up and a person asks for a slight change in the plan, God might grant the request.

One could argue that God should've already known about the request in advance and have already done something a long time ago (when time began) to have that request granted if that was indeed God's will to answer the request.

I've always disliked the idea of miracles. It was as if this awesome creator that brought this universe into being with the laws and physical constants pre-programmed, unchanging, and inherent to the system would put himself in the position of breaking those laws to make something miraculous happen to prove his existence or grant a prayer request. I always thought that God was probably slicker than that. But what do I know.

I guess for most people, though, the thinking behind prayer is: it couldn't hurt.

For me personally, I tend to think other people need help more than I, and I pray for them rather myself. But if I was in a North Korean torture chamber, I probably would have a list of personal demands I'd want God to at least consider.

EdipisReks · 16th June 2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy
I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays.

I read somewhere that everyone, atheist or theist, when in a clown threatening suvival situation while alone in nature, eats funnel cake.

SuperCoolGuy · 16th June 2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EdipisReks
I read somewhere that everyone, atheist or theist, when in a clown threatening suvival situation while alone in nature, eats funnel cake.

That's awesome.

Sigh . . . "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales was what I was refering to. I don't recall the page number. My apologizes to all atheists for implying that people, regardless of religious or lack of religious beliefs, resort to some form of prayer.

That was a horribly rude suggestion, tantamout to implying that a theist (like myself) would give up on her/his belief in a god in a stressful enough situation, which by the way, happens. But not necessarily all the time . . . I get it.

FranÃ§ois Lesueur · 16th June 2005, 10:13 PM

Prayer is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
God ask you to pry about it, however,if it be in his will.
What a frikin joke duuuuuuuuuuuuu ok what ever you say bossss

c4ts · 16th June 2005, 10:41 PM

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0083/0083_01.asp

Isn't it obvious? People pray because God has a delivery service for things like bags of flour. And if things just don't go your way, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, YA FAKE CHRISTIAN!!

EdipisReks · 17th June 2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy
That's awesome.

Sigh . . . "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales was what I was refering to. I don't recall the page number. My apologizes to all atheists for implying that people, regardless of religious or lack of religious beliefs, resort to some form of prayer.

That was a horribly rude suggestion, tantamout to implying that a theist (like myself) would give up on her/his belief in a god in a stressful enough situation, which by the way, happens. But not necessarily all the time . . . I get it.

that's awfully good of you.

Skeptical Greg · 17th June 2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hope12

We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life.

Take care,
Hope12

And don't forget to thank him for those tsunamis, earthquakes and hurricanes.. God's version of urban renewal..

swstephe · 17th June 2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question:

If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray?

To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever....

I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused.

Thanks for your time.

i agree. in "the lord's prayer" it says "thy will be done", so what's the point? if you pray for something that isn't in god's will, then it won't be answered. if you pray for something that is in his will, then it would have happened if you prayed or not. "the lord's prayer" only asks for one thing being asked for "our daily bread", everything else is worship, (grovelling if you will). i got very disappointed with christianity because they talked a lot about free will and praying for material and spiritual things when i thought that worship was the only purpose for prayer -- so i converted to islam. sure, muslims also have prayers where they ask for different things, but it is not required and not the main focus of prayer. the main focus is to join together with all other muslims in the world with a central focus point and bow with your head down to the almighty. i don't know why christians are so afraid of it as it seems they believe they will be doing this anyway in the afterlife, (and apparently won't have any need of anything to pray for then).

El_Spectre · 17th June 2005, 10:45 AM

So, in Islam, prayer is less an appeal to god, more an affirmation of the community/culture? If so, that's interesting...

Jas · 17th June 2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy

But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray?

Does "Fer chrissakes! It's f***in' cold!", count as a form of prayer?

El_Spectre · 17th June 2005, 12:59 PM

Or perhaps "Good God, could it be any colder?" ?

El_Spectre · 17th June 2005, 02:18 PM

BTW, thanks for the replies religious folks. They were interesting.

LibraryLady · 17th June 2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0083/0083_01.asp

Wow, Elijah looks just like Lenin!

Kitty Chan · 17th June 2005, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question:

If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray?

To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever....

I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused.

Thanks for your time.

Hey Ill give a kick at myself here on this one.

I heard a statement by Tony Campola who said

"When your praying to God to heal Aunt Harriett's gall stones, do you really think Gods sitting there saying Wow I didnt know that Aunt Harriet had gall stones!"

Of course God knows. The point of prayer is not for this giant wish list of what needs to be fixed, God knows, just like youve said. So why pray if He knows?

God asks us to pray so WE KNOW Aunt Harriett has gall stones, so WE KNOW our neighbour has lost his job and may need a hand, so we know that we are trying to be more patient with our children, so we know how to love one another and care for one another. Thats what prayer is about.

Thats why God says to look at Him, because it takes you away, from you, in order to see others.

Dr Adequate · 18th June 2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
So, in Islam, prayer is less an appeal to god, more an affirmation of the community/culture? If so, that's interesting...

I don't think that this is what swstephe was getting at at all.

As I understand it, when Muslims pray, they aen't saying "hooray for my community/culture". Quite the opposite, as you'll see. But nor are they saying: "make me rich, make my children get good exam results, let me get a promotion..." as so many Christians do. I knew a surfer who prayed for a big wave. Mind you, I know about this because afterwards he wondered if it was wrong, and asked me.

No, when Muslims fulfil their obligations of prayer, they are prostrating themselves before God and saying how good he is. 'Cos they should (according to them).

Now, if you want to take a strictly atheist view of this practice, then the Prophet was raised amongst quarrelling bloodthirsty tribes, who put a family bloodfeud above all else --- except reverence for Mecca and the Ramadaan truce. And each of them was a radical individualist who wouldn't protrate himself to anyone. By the ritual of prostration and prayer, Muhammad produced a people who would prostrate themselves --- to a God who desired brotherhood between them --- and who would put aside tribal loyalties for their common loyalty to God.

And it worked. We evil atheist types like to knock various religions, but the fact is that every religion that survives so many centuries at least has survival value. The result of Islaam was to replace an anarchic war based on blood relationship with a civilized peace based on obeying God. The common act of worship has a lot to do with it.

Interesting historical fact: Malcolm X renounced his racism as a result of visiting Mecca.

15th June 2005, 09:12 PM	#1
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	For religious folks: Why do you pray? I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question: If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray? To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever.... I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused. Thanks for your time.
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

15th June 2005, 09:17 PM	#2
Alkatran Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 559	This sounds kind of like the whole "Why do psychics need to you schedule?" question (because you aren't psychic and would pop up at the wrong time, of course) I suppose you could say the same thing of praying: you don't appreciate it if you don't ask for it?
Alkatran Muse Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 559	__________________ Don't pay attention to this signature: it's contradictory.

16th June 2005, 05:50 AM	#4
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	So praying is a form of adulation? ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

16th June 2005, 08:44 AM	#5
jmercer Question Everything Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Facing the unfaceable Posts: 12,259	Because it makes me feel better. And who knows? "Perhaps the horse will learn to sing." I occasionally pray for assistance, or pray for someone else's comfort, or well-being, or whatever I think is needed. Then I go do whatever is humanly possible for me to do (too damned little for me, at times), because that's my obligation as a fellow human being. I don't just "toss it in God's lap" and forget about it... unless there's absolutely nothing I can do other than say a prayer. So, yeah, I'll ask God for help. Why not? I write politicians for help about situations, too - but I don't count on getting it any more than I count on retiring every time I play Lotto.
	__________________ "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke, British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797 "Cheeky Monkey!" - Chillzero "Daft Sausage!" - Tkingdoll "Context is everything, and sophistry will not protect you." - chillzero

16th June 2005, 08:54 AM	#6
Hope12 New Blood Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 22	TO DRAW CLOSE TO GOD! We all undergo many problems and difficulties in life. Prayer draws our attention away from the problem at hand and draws us closer to our Creator. Prayer comfort me. If one is comfort by a mate or loved one, then they can understand the comfort that prayer brings. Those of us who believe in God as our heavenly father and Creator, feel that comfort knowing that he is almighty and can handle what the person praying can not handle. Faith is needed and a close relationship with God in order for prayer to be comforting. Remember to as the almighty God of the universe God can deal with what ever problems we face in today's world. Just like we would speak with someone who we love, such as a mate or parent, we who love God, speak or communicate with our heavenly parent, God. You probably can not understand that because it is something very special and one needs to believe with their whole heart that he hears us talk with him. He of course does not answer us verbally but God can answer us in other ways. We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life. Take care, Hope12
Hope12 New Blood Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 22

16th June 2005, 02:20 AM	#3
joyrex shaven wookie Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: psychopathy checklist Posts: 699	Praying.. If I did that, it would be more like making the connection stronger rather than asking for something. Tuning in to God's wishes.

16th June 2005, 08:59 AM	#7
Lee New Blood Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11	Firstly, I don't know if God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan. I believe that a Creative Force exists. Some of my prayers are addressed in the way that I requested. Three prayers have been addressed almost immediately. I believe the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you want something you need to let that be known. Secondly, I find that praying (for me at least) tends to be calming. I feel more centered and at peace. In that state, I find it easier to deal with the stresses of life. My two cents.
Lee New Blood Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11

16th June 2005, 09:04 AM	#8
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. ~ Matthew 6:5-8

16th June 2005, 09:20 AM	#9
zakur Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 3,265	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. I always think of this verse when I catch the nuns on EWTN praying the rosary. That's some mind-numbing TV right there.
	__________________ "I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." -Thomas Carlyle "That's the problem these days: nobody thinks of the tumors." -steinhenge

16th June 2005, 09:24 AM	#10
zakur Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 3,265	Here's a manual: Christian Prayer for Dummies Quote: Do you want to pray, but youâ€™re not sure how? This friendly guide explains the different kinds of prayer â€“ revealing how and why to pray and how to discern Godâ€™s answers. Youâ€™ll see how to overcome hindrances, how to use a journal, and how to pray on your own. Discover what "Thy will be done" means and how to approach prayers that seemingly havenâ€™t been answered. The Dummies Way Explanations in plain English "Get in, get out" information Icons and other navigational aids Tear-out cheat sheet Top ten lists A dash of humor and fun
	__________________ "I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." -Thomas Carlyle "That's the problem these days: nobody thinks of the tumors." -steinhenge

16th June 2005, 09:48 AM	#11
Z D.D.D. Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In a den in my lair, on the edge of your mind. Posts: 9,166	For my own part, I don't think the Divine has some 'Master Plan', nor do I think the Divine is 'all-knowing'. Further, I think the Divine is limited to what is probable - however improbable - and not to what is impossible. For me, prayer is more of a personal event - an affirmation of my own needs and desires, that provides a sort of focus point in my memory. Plus, maybe, in some small way, by praying, I increase the chance that a slim probability will manifest in my favor. Plus it feels interesting to pray. Ah, the power of self-delusion maybe? Hey, if sugar pills can cure back aches, why not prayer?
	__________________ Merry Yarglemas!

16th June 2005, 10:11 AM	#12
flipside New Blood Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5	Re: TO DRAW CLOSE TO GOD! Quote: Originally posted by Hope12 We all undergo many problems and difficulties in life. Prayer draws our attention away from the problem at hand and draws us closer to our Creator. Prayer comfort me. If one is comfort by a mate or loved one, then they can understand the comfort that prayer brings. Those of us who believe in God as our heavenly father and Creator, feel that comfort knowing that he is almighty and can handle what the person praying can not handle. Faith is needed and a close relationship with God in order for prayer to be comforting. Remember to as the almighty God of the universe God can deal with what ever problems we face in today's world. Just like we would speak with someone who we love, such as a mate or parent, we who love God, speak or communicate with our heavenly parent, God. You probably can not understand that because it is something very special and one needs to believe with their whole heart that he hears us talk with him. He of course does not answer us verbally but God can answer us in other ways. We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life. Take care, Hope12 Is it like calling the plumber after you've done everything possible to fix the leak?This plumber has been referred to you by someone else and his policy is to never return calls.You don't know when or if he will come to fix your pipes,but you know definately that his answer is yes,no or maybe.Now transfer this to praying for a good mark on an exam.Would you pray and never open a book?If you get a good mark,glory be to god.If you fail whose fault is it.I've found that Zeus answers prayer in much the same way.
flipside New Blood Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5

16th June 2005, 11:00 AM	#13
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	So, y'all pray because it makes you feel better, not to actually request god changes anything?
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

16th June 2005, 11:23 AM	#14
Gestahl Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 689	Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by El_Spectre I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question: If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray? For those praying for material/wordly things, we see the amazing hubris of the religious, who pretend to be humble. It's because they think that they have God's favor, and that because they follow him, that they deserve earthly rewards. Some people believe that God's favor is in the form of material success on earth, that they might do good in His name. Never do they consider He should be the arbiter of who deserves what, and certainly shouldn't need you as a proxy to spread His cause. But its all OK, as long as you add "Thy will be done"... as if any other outcome were possible. Quote: To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever.... I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused. Thanks for your time. Jesus can't seem to give a prayer that does anything logical or useful, if one truly believes what they profess. Let's break down that old chestnut, the Lord's Prayer, taken from Matthew 6, KJV: Quote: 9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Useless and syncophantic adoration. According to the Bible, even the rocks and the trees will call out unto Him. Nature itself proclaims His power and honor, as does our existence. Your actions hallow him, not your words. I can imagine God going "yes, yes, I rock... get on with it." Quote: 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. As if some alternative could even be the case. God's response "It always has been..." Quote: 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. God proclaims that there is not a sparrow that falls to the ground unnoticed, and that he will provide for us. Why ask for that which is promised? Do we not trust him? Furthermore, He supposedly forgives us of all future and past sins by the blood of Christ: not by the forgiveness we give others. God's response: "Sure thing... I was already doing that, but OK." Quote: 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: God tempts us? Not according to the Bible. God, furthermore, cannot deliver us from evil if we have free will, the evil is ours to avoid and to not create. Not to mention the hubris of not ever thinking that it may be your lot to suffer and be tempted (see Job). God's response: "You let me be the judge of what I lead you into and deliver you unto. I am omniscient and all..." Quote: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Way to tell the omnipotent what he already knows, and what you already believe. However, by all the previous parts of the prayer, it seems to me you don't really think that at all: you see him as something that must be pleaded with, mollified, and fearfully revered... hardly some omnibenevolent God that, by grace, gives us freely what we could never deserve. God's response "I wish you would truly take that to heart." You want a real prayer? One that actually takes all the reality of the Christian's belief at face value? In modern vernacular: Quote: Dear God, Thanks. Let me know what I can do. If you truly believe, there is nothing else to say, no matter what may happen: simple, honest, gratitude and willing submission. /feeling particularly ornery today //ETA: formatting
	__________________ "By space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world." - Pascal

16th June 2005, 11:54 AM	#15
jmercer Question Everything Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Facing the unfaceable Posts: 12,259	Quote: Originally posted by El_Spectre So, y'all pray because it makes you feel better, not to actually request god changes anything? Nope, I do both. Then I get on with the job of doing something about it, because I'm never gonna sit on my arse and hope someone else does my work for me.
	__________________ "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke, British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797 "Cheeky Monkey!" - Chillzero "Daft Sausage!" - Tkingdoll "Context is everything, and sophistry will not protect you." - chillzero

16th June 2005, 12:05 PM	#16
jmercer Question Everything Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Facing the unfaceable Posts: 12,259	Re: Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by Gestahl God tempts us? Not according to the Bible. Sure He does. Garden of Eden? "Hey, here's this Tree of Knowledge - don't touch it, kids!" Then there's the book of Job: Quote: 1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 2: And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 3: His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 4: And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5: And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9: Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10: Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11: But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12: And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. 13: And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 14: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: 15: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 16: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 17: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 18: While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 19: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 20: Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 21: And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. 22: In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. So while God Himself didn't do the tempting, he sent Satan (the ultimate tempter!) down to do his dirty work for Him... effectively leading Job into temptation. Kinda makes you wonder about their working relationship, doesn't it?
	__________________ "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke, British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797 "Cheeky Monkey!" - Chillzero "Daft Sausage!" - Tkingdoll "Context is everything, and sophistry will not protect you." - chillzero

16th June 2005, 12:11 PM	#17
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	Quote: Originally posted by jmercer Nope, I do both. Then I get on with the job of doing something about it, because I'm never gonna sit on my arse and hope someone else does my work for me. The thrust if my question is, if you pray for things to change, doesn't this mean that God got it wrong the first time?
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

16th June 2005, 12:14 PM	#18
jmercer Question Everything Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Facing the unfaceable Posts: 12,259	Quote: Originally posted by El_Spectre The thrust if my question is, if you pray for things to change, doesn't this mean that God got it wrong the first time? Only if you believe God actively controls everything and we have nothing to say about it. If you believe in free will, though, then it's not God that got it wrong. And if God created a casual universe, there will be natural events that affect us because of our choices, such as living location, etc.
	__________________ "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke, British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797 "Cheeky Monkey!" - Chillzero "Daft Sausage!" - Tkingdoll "Context is everything, and sophistry will not protect you." - chillzero

16th June 2005, 12:42 PM	#19
Gestahl Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 689	Re: Re: Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by jmercer Sure He does. Garden of Eden? "Hey, here's this Tree of Knowledge - don't touch it, kids!" Then there's the book of Job: These can be interpreted as to whether God tempted. I am going off of the direct, plain statement from James 1:13.
	__________________ "By space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world." - Pascal

16th June 2005, 01:26 PM	#20
jmercer Question Everything Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Facing the unfaceable Posts: 12,259	Re: Re: Re: Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by Gestahl These can be interpreted as to whether God tempted. I am going off of the direct, plain statement from James 1:13. Hm... ok. Just so long as you don't mind me pointing out that God - who is omniscient - took the time to put the tree in the center of the garden, left it unguarded (where was that angel with the fiery sword when we needed him? ), and then specifically pointed out the ONLY thing in the entire garden that a couple of naive and innocent "children" couldn't touch. Then He walked away. Sounds to me like He deliberately placed temptation in their reach and then pointed it out to 'em... a very close match for "leading into temptation", I'd say.
	__________________ "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke, British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797 "Cheeky Monkey!" - Chillzero "Daft Sausage!" - Tkingdoll "Context is everything, and sophistry will not protect you." - chillzero

16th June 2005, 01:46 PM	#21
Gestahl Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 689	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by jmercer Hm... ok. Just so long as you don't mind me pointing out that God - who is omniscient - took the time to put the tree in the center of the garden, left it unguarded (where was that angel with the fiery sword when we needed him? ), and then specifically pointed out the ONLY thing in the entire garden that a couple of naive and innocent "children" couldn't touch. Then He walked away. Sounds to me like He deliberately placed temptation in their reach and then pointed it out to 'em... a very close match for "leading into temptation", I'd say. I agree fully, and that would be my thoughts as well, make no mistake. I am not arguing per se... I think the Bible is contradictory and makes no real sense at all. I think the God portrayed and proclaimed is wholly in contrast to his supposed attributes. Suffice to say that that verse and interpretation was convenient at the time to use... strange how the people that actually believe do the same (quote what is convenient)... the difference being I know I am doing it, and do it because they are the ones that must reconcile their tangled beliefs... not I ;-).
	__________________ "By space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world." - Pascal

16th June 2005, 04:31 PM	#22
SuperCoolGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Near the sun Posts: 480	I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays. Call it a psychological safety blanket humans tend to cling to when there's nothing else.

16th June 2005, 04:50 PM	#23
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays. Call it a psychological safety blanket humans tend to cling to when there's nothing else. I'd call it an unfounded claim, actually. It's like those condescending folks who responded to my atheism with "well, you're young... you've still got time, you'll see" Penn Jillette wrote an interesting essay (what we'd now call a blog, I guess) on his website about being in a plane that looked likely to crash... and noted that he didn't pray. Personally, last year I was nearly stuck on top of a mountain at night... freezing and/or cougar/bear attack were very real possibilities. As the sun set, did I pray? Nope, I weighed the options and risks, then made a decision (risky cross country hike/slide down a 2000 foot slope) and survived. No god required Incidently, I almost stepped on a snake... it was biology - cold air + reptile = slow snake - that saved my butt, not god Finally, you might be interested in the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. Apparently there ARE atheists in foxholes. (edited cuz I screwed up a coupla times)
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

16th June 2005, 05:15 PM	#24
SuperCoolGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Near the sun Posts: 480	The book is called Deep Survival. Note I said "tend to". I personally don't believe every single atheist prays when faced with a life threatening situation. But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray? Basically, who cares. Some people pray, some people don't. Some atheists MIGHT pray, others won't under any circumstances. But whatever the situation, prayer without proper usage of the ole neo-cortex usually ends badly. So, to paraphrase George Washington, do what you can, and leave the rest to providence (God, luck, etc)

16th June 2005, 05:23 PM	#25
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy The book is called Deep Survival. Note I said "tend to". I personally don't believe every single atheist prays when faced with a life threatening situation. Yeah, but the statement started with "everyone". Can't have it both ways. Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray? I can't guarantee anything. This whole sketicism thing isn't about assurances. Nor is it about proving negatives... Some people pray, some of us don't. I'm curious about WHY, and have attempted not to be condescending. I would ask the same in return.
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

16th June 2005, 05:50 PM	#26
SuperCoolGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Near the sun Posts: 480	To answer your question, it seems people think God's plan can change if the indivdual only asks. I guess, God sets things in motion, but should something come up and a person asks for a slight change in the plan, God might grant the request. One could argue that God should've already known about the request in advance and have already done something a long time ago (when time began) to have that request granted if that was indeed God's will to answer the request. I've always disliked the idea of miracles. It was as if this awesome creator that brought this universe into being with the laws and physical constants pre-programmed, unchanging, and inherent to the system would put himself in the position of breaking those laws to make something miraculous happen to prove his existence or grant a prayer request. I always thought that God was probably slicker than that. But what do I know. I guess for most people, though, the thinking behind prayer is: it couldn't hurt. For me personally, I tend to think other people need help more than I, and I pray for them rather myself. But if I was in a North Korean torture chamber, I probably would have a list of personal demands I'd want God to at least consider.

16th June 2005, 07:56 PM	#27
EdipisReks Custom Title Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The 'Nati Posts: 1,952	Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy I read somewhere that everyone, aethist or theist, when in a life threatening survival situation while alone in nature, prays. I read somewhere that everyone, atheist or theist, when in a clown threatening suvival situation while alone in nature, eats funnel cake.
	__________________ "Candy to rot your teeth. Bible to rot your brain." --EvilDave (7-24-2003) "I read the Book Of Mormon once. Wasn't it about Uma Thurman, um, thrumming a Theremin?" --epepke (9-22-2004)

16th June 2005, 09:09 PM	#28
SuperCoolGuy Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Near the sun Posts: 480	Quote: Originally posted by EdipisReks I read somewhere that everyone, atheist or theist, when in a clown threatening suvival situation while alone in nature, eats funnel cake. That's awesome. Sigh . . . "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales was what I was refering to. I don't recall the page number. My apologizes to all atheists for implying that people, regardless of religious or lack of religious beliefs, resort to some form of prayer. That was a horribly rude suggestion, tantamout to implying that a theist (like myself) would give up on her/his belief in a god in a stressful enough situation, which by the way, happens. But not necessarily all the time . . . I get it.

16th June 2005, 10:13 PM	#29
FranÃ§ois Lesueur New Blood Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: North Branch,MN Posts: 10	I feel needed Prayer is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 God ask you to pry about it, however,if it be in his will. What a frikin joke duuuuuuuuuuuuu ok what ever you say bossss
	__________________ When common sense fails to convince the learned, realize that which they have learned is their only common denominator.

16th June 2005, 10:41 PM	#30
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0083/0083_01.asp Isn't it obvious? People pray because God has a delivery service for things like bags of flour. And if things just don't go your way, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, YA FAKE CHRISTIAN!!
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

17th June 2005, 09:09 AM	#31
EdipisReks Custom Title Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The 'Nati Posts: 1,952	Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy That's awesome. Sigh . . . "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales was what I was refering to. I don't recall the page number. My apologizes to all atheists for implying that people, regardless of religious or lack of religious beliefs, resort to some form of prayer. That was a horribly rude suggestion, tantamout to implying that a theist (like myself) would give up on her/his belief in a god in a stressful enough situation, which by the way, happens. But not necessarily all the time . . . I get it. that's awfully good of you.
	__________________ "Candy to rot your teeth. Bible to rot your brain." --EvilDave (7-24-2003) "I read the Book Of Mormon once. Wasn't it about Uma Thurman, um, thrumming a Theremin?" --epepke (9-22-2004)

17th June 2005, 09:10 AM	#32
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Re: TO DRAW CLOSE TO GOD! Quote: Originally posted by Hope12 We also that God for the gifts he supplies to us. The sun, the rain, daily food, a roof over our head. We thank others who do for us, why not thank God in prayer for what he does for us? After all, he gives each one of us life. Take care, Hope12 And don't forget to thank him for those tsunamis, earthquakes and hurricanes.. God's version of urban renewal..
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17th June 2005, 09:18 AM	#33
swstephe Thinker Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: borneo island Posts: 176	Re: For religious folks: Why do you pray? Quote: Originally posted by El_Spectre I'm obviously a godless heathen, but we have a lot of religious folks around, and I'd like to ask a question: If God is infallible, all knowing and has A Plan, then why pray? To me it seems either pointless (i.e. God won't care, he's already got a plan) or insulting (implies that your wishes are more important than His Plan) to ask for happiness, success, health or whatever.... I swear (to whom? hmm) I'm not trying to start a flamewar, just genuinely confused. Thanks for your time. i agree. in "the lord's prayer" it says "thy will be done", so what's the point? if you pray for something that isn't in god's will, then it won't be answered. if you pray for something that is in his will, then it would have happened if you prayed or not. "the lord's prayer" only asks for one thing being asked for "our daily bread", everything else is worship, (grovelling if you will). i got very disappointed with christianity because they talked a lot about free will and praying for material and spiritual things when i thought that worship was the only purpose for prayer -- so i converted to islam. sure, muslims also have prayers where they ask for different things, but it is not required and not the main focus of prayer. the main focus is to join together with all other muslims in the world with a central focus point and bow with your head down to the almighty. i don't know why christians are so afraid of it as it seems they believe they will be doing this anyway in the afterlife, (and apparently won't have any need of anything to pray for then).
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17th June 2005, 10:45 AM	#34
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,206	So, in Islam, prayer is less an appeal to god, more an affirmation of the community/culture? If so, that's interesting...
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17th June 2005, 12:56 PM	#35
Jas Queen Skankarella of Ho Nation Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,845	Quote: Originally posted by SuperCoolGuy But until you've spent 6 days in the mountains alone, freezing and barely adequately hydrated, can you guarantee you won't pray? Does "Fer chrissakes! It's f***in' cold!", count as a form of prayer?
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