Dubious Data Awards - 2002

Supercharts · 1st February 2003, 02:53 PM

Every now and then I check out STATS. This is a great site for taking apart news articles that misuse statistics.

Here are this years awards:
http://www.stats.org/statswork/awards.html

hammegk · 1st February 2003, 03:18 PM

A least none of the 469,000 pretend to be atheists!

BillyJoe · 1st February 2003, 06:09 PM

2nd February 2003, 06:03 PM

And we know that the 469,000 African-American students in college aren't atheists because...

BillyJoe · 3rd February 2003, 02:39 AM

.....hammegk says so.

hammegk · 3rd February 2003, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwald
And we know that the 469,000 African-American students in college aren't atheists because...

... who knows how many posters here have said so and provided studies showing jail inmates are not atheists.

How quickly some forget.

3rd February 2003, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk

... who knows how many posters here have said so and provided studies showing jail inmates are not atheists.

How quickly some forget.

Let's see... "somebody here made this kind of error before, therefore I can do the same." What a premise for reason! What a tool for rational discourse!

Cheers,

hammegk · 3rd February 2003, 06:58 AM

See how effective your teachings methods are?

Jeers, gk

3rd February 2003, 01:38 PM

So, because the college-aged African-Americans who are in jail aren't atheists, neither are the college-aged African-Americans who are in college...

Generally, starting with a faulty premise and continuing with faulty logic is not conducive to producing a convincing result.

hammegk · 3rd February 2003, 01:55 PM

Darned if I know. None of the atheists here have posted any studies on the atheistness of Afro college students.

Do you have some data?

3rd February 2003, 01:57 PM

No. I would agree that we don't have any data on the number of atheist African-American college students.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions.

hammegk · 3rd February 2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwald

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions.

Oh, OK. You just typed this for the hell of it ...

"So, because the college-aged African-Americans who are in jail aren't atheists, neither are the college-aged African-Americans who are in college..."

No problem here.

3rd February 2003, 02:09 PM

I made that argument as an example of a logically flawed argument. You may note that my next sentence pointed out two of these fatal flaws, namely 1. that it was based on a faulty premise (there's no data that no prison inmates are atheists), and 2. that data about prison inmates has no correlation to data about college students. In the future, I guess I'll need to explicitly point out when I'm giving an example of a flawed argument, since you clearly can't recognize one on your own.

hammegk · 3rd February 2003, 02:42 PM

(there's no data that no prison inmates are atheists)[/b][/quote]

OK, I concede.

" A least none of the 469,000 pretend to be atheists! " must be revised, viz., "An unknown number of the 469,000 may be atheists."

Happy now?

BTW, why do you think your statement is correct? Have you actually looked for such data? I'd like to see a study showing the number of atheists in jails, but again, I've been assured here in JREF that "prison inmates are not atheists".

PS. Please offer your logic & advice in the "Is This The Aim" thread in R&P.

Fade · 3rd February 2003, 02:56 PM

Don't listen to them hammy, I believe in you!

3rd February 2003, 03:05 PM

So there may exist data discussing atheism in jails. Since I don't have this data, for me it's as good as non-existant. I'm not going to scour the web searching for data on atheism in jails; if you want to prove me wrong, all you need to do is produce a study about this.

I believe the null hypothesis, namely that no data exists. Do you have evidence to disprove this?

hammegk · 4th February 2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwald
No. I would agree that we don't have any data on the number of atheist African-American college students.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions.

Interesting. We don't have any data on existence of god either.

Atheists draw a conclusion at 100% confidence in that fact. And you think I use faulty logic, huh?

4th February 2003, 01:55 PM

The whole atheist/agnostic argument has been made elsewhere. But I'll restate it, anyway. Here are the three possible opinions:

(Some people say weak atheist/strong atheist to make this distinction; others say atheist/agnostic. I've included both titles.)

Theist: I believe that there is a God.
Strong Atheist/Atheist: I believe that there is no God.
Weak Atheist/Agnostic: I have no evidence either way, and therefore cannot believe either opinion.

Personally, I'm an agnostic. I've seen no evidence to suggest that God exists, and some evidence that should exist if God were to exist doesn't. But that is far from conclusive, so I can't make any absolute conclusions about God either way.

I'll admit, anyone who says they are 100% certain that God doesn't exist is using faulty logic. But that may not include everyone you think it does.

BillyJoe · 5th February 2003, 12:42 AM

rwald,

The term "agnostic" doesn't apply specifically to God. "Agnostic" means "unknowable" and can apply to any subject. Being agnostic about God means that you believe that the existence or non-existence of God is intrinsically unknowable not just that there is no evidence at the present time.

I think the word you're looking for is "nontheist".

regards,
BillyJoe

RichardR · 5th February 2003, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
rwald,

The term "agnostic" doesn't apply specifically to God. "Agnostic" means "unknowable" and can apply to any subject. Being agnostic about God means that you believe that the existence or non-existence of God is intrinsically unknowable not just that there is no evidence at the present time.

I think the word you're looking for is "nontheist".

Dictionary.com defines agnostic as:

Quote:

1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

1b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

xouper · 11th February 2004, 10:17 AM

bump

BillyJoe · 12th February 2004, 01:56 AM

Richard,

I'm agnostic about dictionary definitions.

BillyJoe
(Sorry for the long delay in responding

)

jj · 12th February 2004, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk

Interesting. We don't have any data on existence of god either.

Atheists draw a conclusion at 100% confidence in that fact. And you think I use faulty logic, huh?

Once again, please do not falsely state the claims and positions of atheists. I conclude that there is no god, based on the lack of evidence and lack of need. Should evidence or need arise, the position is provisional. Your claim of 100% confidence is a sinful lie, sir, and you should abase yourself before your chosen throne and repent.

hammegk · 12th February 2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jj

I conclude that there is no god, based on the lack of evidence and lack of need. Should evidence or need arise, the position is provisional.

Goody, that makes you an agnostic.

Quote:

Your claim of 100% confidence is a sinful lie, sir, and you should abase yourself before your chosen throne and repent.

What makes you think you might actually be an "atheist"?

Fade · 12th February 2004, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Richard,

I'm agnostic about dictionary definitions.

BillyJoe
(Sorry for the long delay in responding )

Only took ya 12 months!

jj · 12th February 2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk

Goody, that makes you an agnostic.

An agnostic makes no conclusion. I make a conclusion. Ergo, I am not an agnostic.

What makes you think you might actually be an "atheist"?

The fact that I am.

hammegk · 12th February 2004, 04:42 PM

Sounds like you're almost positive.

Johnny Pneumatic · 12th February 2004, 05:05 PM

hammegk, there are atheists in prison; just not many.
We are so moral.

BillyJoe · 13th February 2004, 02:43 AM

Fade,

Quote:

Originally posted by Fade
Only took ya 12 months!

Oh well, my puzzle on the Puzzle Forum remained unsolved for almost as long until Nova got it on the rebound.

(But then he missed the whole point of it as a reference to the original puzzle he himself posted

)

BillyJoe
(You win some, you lose some)

1st February 2003, 02:53 PM	#1
Supercharts Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,185	Dubious Data Awards - 2002 Every now and then I check out STATS. This is a great site for taking apart news articles that misuse statistics. Here are this years awards: http://www.stats.org/statswork/awards.html

1st February 2003, 03:18 PM	#2
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	A least none of the 469,000 pretend to be atheists!
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

1st February 2003, 06:09 PM	#3
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

2nd February 2003, 06:03 PM	#4
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	And we know that the 469,000 African-American students in college aren't atheists because...
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 02:39 AM	#5
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	.....hammegk says so.
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

3rd February 2003, 06:04 AM	#6
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Quote: Originally posted by rwald And we know that the 469,000 African-American students in college aren't atheists because... ... who knows how many posters here have said so and provided studies showing jail inmates are not atheists. How quickly some forget.
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

3rd February 2003, 06:26 AM	#7
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by hammegk ... who knows how many posters here have said so and provided studies showing jail inmates are not atheists. How quickly some forget. Let's see... "somebody here made this kind of error before, therefore I can do the same." What a premise for reason! What a tool for rational discourse! Cheers,
Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 06:58 AM	#8
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Dear Bill See how effective your teachings methods are? Jeers, gk
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

3rd February 2003, 01:38 PM	#9
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	So, because the college-aged African-Americans who are in jail aren't atheists, neither are the college-aged African-Americans who are in college... Generally, starting with a faulty premise and continuing with faulty logic is not conducive to producing a convincing result.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 01:55 PM	#10
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Darned if I know. None of the atheists here have posted any studies on the atheistness of Afro college students. Do you have some data?
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

3rd February 2003, 01:57 PM	#11
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	No. I would agree that we don't have any data on the number of atheist African-American college students. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 02:04 PM	#12
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Quote: Originally posted by rwald However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions. Oh, OK. You just typed this for the hell of it ... "So, because the college-aged African-Americans who are in jail aren't atheists, neither are the college-aged African-Americans who are in college..." No problem here.
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

3rd February 2003, 02:09 PM	#13
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	I made that argument as an example of a logically flawed argument. You may note that my next sentence pointed out two of these fatal flaws, namely 1. that it was based on a faulty premise (there's no data that no prison inmates are atheists), and 2. that data about prison inmates has no correlation to data about college students. In the future, I guess I'll need to explicitly point out when I'm giving an example of a flawed argument, since you clearly can't recognize one on your own.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 02:42 PM	#14
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	(there's no data that no prison inmates are atheists)[/b][/quote] OK, I concede. " A least none of the 469,000 pretend to be atheists! " must be revised, viz., "An unknown number of the 469,000 may be atheists." Happy now? BTW, why do you think your statement is correct? Have you actually looked for such data? I'd like to see a study showing the number of atheists in jails, but again, I've been assured here in JREF that "prison inmates are not atheists". PS. Please offer your logic & advice in the "Is This The Aim" thread in R&P.
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

3rd February 2003, 02:56 PM	#15
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055	Don't listen to them hammy, I believe in you!
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055

3rd February 2003, 03:05 PM	#16
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	So there may exist data discussing atheism in jails. Since I don't have this data, for me it's as good as non-existant. I'm not going to scour the web searching for data on atheism in jails; if you want to prove me wrong, all you need to do is produce a study about this. I believe the null hypothesis, namely that no data exists. Do you have evidence to disprove this?
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

4th February 2003, 01:40 PM	#17
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Quote: Originally posted by rwald No. I would agree that we don't have any data on the number of atheist African-American college students. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no atheist African-American college students. After all, if we have no data, we can't make any conclusions. Interesting. We don't have any data on existence of god either. Atheists draw a conclusion at 100% confidence in that fact. And you think I use faulty logic, huh?
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

4th February 2003, 01:55 PM	#18
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	The whole atheist/agnostic argument has been made elsewhere. But I'll restate it, anyway. Here are the three possible opinions: (Some people say weak atheist/strong atheist to make this distinction; others say atheist/agnostic. I've included both titles.) Theist: I believe that there is a God. Strong Atheist/Atheist: I believe that there is no God. Weak Atheist/Agnostic: I have no evidence either way, and therefore cannot believe either opinion. Personally, I'm an agnostic. I've seen no evidence to suggest that God exists, and some evidence that should exist if God were to exist doesn't. But that is far from conclusive, so I can't make any absolute conclusions about God either way. I'll admit, anyone who says they are 100% certain that God doesn't exist is using faulty logic. But that may not include everyone you think it does.
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

5th February 2003, 12:42 AM	#19
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	rwald, The term "agnostic" doesn't apply specifically to God. "Agnostic" means "unknowable" and can apply to any subject. Being agnostic about God means that you believe that the existence or non-existence of God is intrinsically unknowable not just that there is no evidence at the present time. I think the word you're looking for is "nontheist". regards, BillyJoe
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

5th February 2003, 07:42 AM	#20
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe rwald, The term "agnostic" doesn't apply specifically to God. "Agnostic" means "unknowable" and can apply to any subject. Being agnostic about God means that you believe that the existence or non-existence of God is intrinsically unknowable not just that there is no evidence at the present time. I think the word you're looking for is "nontheist". Dictionary.com defines agnostic as: Quote: 1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. 1b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. 2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281

11th February 2004, 10:17 AM	#21
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189

12th February 2004, 01:56 AM	#22
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Richard, I'm agnostic about dictionary definitions. BillyJoe (Sorry for the long delay in responding )
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

12th February 2004, 10:38 AM	#23
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,513	Quote: Originally posted by hammegk Interesting. We don't have any data on existence of god either. Atheists draw a conclusion at 100% confidence in that fact. And you think I use faulty logic, huh? Once again, please do not falsely state the claims and positions of atheists. I conclude that there is no god, based on the lack of evidence and lack of need. Should evidence or need arise, the position is provisional. Your claim of 100% confidence is a sinful lie, sir, and you should abase yourself before your chosen throne and repent.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

12th February 2004, 10:47 AM	#24
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Quote: Originally posted by jj I conclude that there is no god, based on the lack of evidence and lack of need. Should evidence or need arise, the position is provisional. Goody, that makes you an agnostic. Quote: Your claim of 100% confidence is a sinful lie, sir, and you should abase yourself before your chosen throne and repent. What makes you think you might actually be an "atheist"?
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

12th February 2004, 11:13 AM	#25
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055	Quote: Originally posted by BillyJoe Richard, I'm agnostic about dictionary definitions. BillyJoe (Sorry for the long delay in responding ) Only took ya 12 months!
Fade Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,055

12th February 2004, 12:13 PM	#26
jj grumpy old skeptic Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Deep in the rain Posts: 18,513	Quote: Originally posted by hammegk Goody, that makes you an agnostic. An agnostic makes no conclusion. I make a conclusion. Ergo, I am not an agnostic. What makes you think you might actually be an "atheist"? The fact that I am.
	__________________ The Power to Quit

12th February 2004, 04:42 PM	#27
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Sounds like you're almost positive.
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

12th February 2004, 05:05 PM	#28
Johnny Pneumatic Corpuscle Clay Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 2,089	hammegk, there are atheists in prison; just not many. We are so moral.
	__________________ If we don't play god, who will?-James Watson What the hell is the matter with you people? Get your minds into the gutter!-Dorian Gray Good Lord - I've heard about this - cat juggling! Stop! Stop! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Good. Father, could there be a God that would let this happen?- Navin R. Johnson, The Jerk There is nothing to believe in. There's no need to believe...There is nothing to believe in in this world. -Vicious, Cowboy Bebop

13th February 2004, 02:43 AM	#29
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Fade, Quote: Originally posted by Fade Only took ya 12 months! Oh well, my puzzle on the Puzzle Forum remained unsolved for almost as long until Nova got it on the rebound. (But then he missed the whole point of it as a reference to the original puzzle he himself posted ) BillyJoe (You win some, you lose some)
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.