NCLB: Is it working?

Roadtoad · 25th June 2005, 02:21 PM

My son, Chris, who's studying to be a high school business teacher, (and is nearly finished with his college), and I have been having long discussions about the Bush Administration's No Child Left Behind policy. Chris is adamant that it isn't working, and has a lot of information about WHY it's not working. Chief among his complaints:

*Schools must show steady improvement in test scores, otherwise, the staff must be terminated from the schools that fail to do so.

*Teachers are now practically required to "teach to the test," rather than help kids develop critical thinking skills.

*The better part of the school's budget now doesn't go to the classroom, but it's now going to the bureaucracy.

*Schools that have already achieved the stated goals of NCLB are being punished unfairly, because now that they've made it, they still are held to the same standards as schools that haven't.

I'd like to hear from others. Please, please, please, cite the information you provide. I'll try to get the 411 from Chris, and pass it on, too.

Roadtoad · 26th June 2005, 12:08 PM

One link, regarding Voc Ed: check it out here.

Also read this one.

cbish · 30th June 2005, 10:31 AM

Is it working? I'm not sure. What's it supposed to do? Personally, I haven't payed much attention to it and I'm not sure I could differentiate a Federal program from a state one. We've had two meetings on the subject, the last one was in early '03. I have to admit, I haven't really spent much time on it, but I've heard a few things about it (which may or may not be true).

Quote:

*Schools must show steady improvement in test scores, otherwise, the staff must be terminated from the schools that fail to do so.

We are required to show improvement. The question is, how much improvement can one show? It's like proclaiming each year our students will fun faster. As far as the termination part goes, I haven't heard that. I know that if certain quotas are not met, we have to send a letter out to the parents stating the quota wasn't met.

Quote:

*Teachers are now practically required to "teach to the test," rather than help kids develop critical thinking skills.

This a criticism of all mandated exams.

Quote:

*The better part of the school's budget now doesn't go to the classroom, but it's now going to the bureaucracy.

I don't know about "a better part", but still a valid criticism. A major point has been made how Bush has mandated this implementations but won't fund it. To me, this is just adding to the bureacracy.

Some other points:
I've heard that in NCLB one of the goals is to have every student read at grade level. An impossibility since grade level is a statistical mean. It's like proclaiming every American will live longer than the life expectancy. This isn't too alarming however. These statistics on intellegence confuse alot of presidents. President Eisenhower was shocked to learn that 50% of americans had below average intellegence.

Also, every student is to be taught by a "highly qualified teacher". However, no has ever defined what that means exactly. That was the last NCLB meeting we had in '03. We filled out a form to see if we were highly qualified. I'm not sure where this form came from. It had standard things like years experience. But, it had some, what I would consider strange, questions. You got points for being a Union Rep. and things like that. Anyway, last month, we all got certificates that said we were highly qualified. I think I filed mine next to my Nuclear Attack Evacuation Plan.

crimresearch · 30th June 2005, 02:15 PM

One may have to deduce that cheating was as a result of the pressure to perform on standadized tests:

"Caldwell Elementary was a shining star in the troubled Memphis city school system, working academic wonders in a tough environment.

But school officials say much of Caldwell's success was a sham, and widely lauded principal Lirah Sabir has retired amid allegations she cheated to boost test scores.
Sabir excluded the weakest students on test days, answer sheets were doctored and monitors were banned from the classroom, school officials say.

Educators say the case illustrates the dark side of the nation's intense focus on school test scores."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/864160/posts

"As the administrationâ€™s chief salesperson for No Child Left Behind, Paige has plenty of practice spouting lies and distortions. As the former superintendent of the Houston Independent School District--where he was the only public schools chief in the U.S. to employ a full-time public relations expert--Paige collaborated with then-Texas Gov. George W. Bush to create the fairy tale of the "Texas miracle" in education for inner-city schools."
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-...RodPaige.shtml

"Chicago posted a failure rate of 82 percent. (If 82 percent of the schools in the district fail, to what other schools will the children transfer for relief?) Other school districts have had similar results. The National Education Association's Joel Packer, who has been lobbying Congress and the Department of Education to modify the legislation, says a Minnesota study concluded that, absent changes, about 80 percent of the schools in the state will be rated failures by 2012 -- the year we're supposed to witness the catching up of that last left-behind child."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

cbish · 30th June 2005, 03:45 PM

We had our own cheating scandal here locally that Road Toad may recall. It was at Woodland H.S., in Woodland CA, a couple of years ago. I believe, a few teachers had seen the test previously and had "taught" specific test questions right before the test. I remember they were all terminated.

Woodland HS is not exactly the mecca of education. In fact, I believe it's an "at risk" school. Those schools have different rules, however, to make things fair. I've heard of the pressure some schools feel to perform. My school has tried to instill that pressure on our faculty. Personally, I don't feel that pressure.

Roadtoad · 30th June 2005, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cbish
We had our own cheating scandal here locally that Road Toad may recall. It was at Woodland H.S., in Woodland CA, a couple of years ago. I believe, a few teachers had seen the test previously and had "taught" specific test questions right before the test. I remember they were all terminated.

Woodland HS is not exactly the mecca of education. In fact, I believe it's an "at risk" school. Those schools have different rules, however, to make things fair. I've heard of the pressure some schools feel to perform. My school has tried to instill that pressure on our faculty. Personally, I don't feel that pressure.

You may be one of the fortunate few.

I'm still reading about this, but if I recall correctly, the Compton School District, one of the worst in the state, gets more money per pupil, and still has one of the highest drop-out rates, and among the lowest scores for basic skills. I've yet to see how this helps those students.

And yes, I remember the Woodland mess. The thing that struck me was that there were some who were complaining not that the teachers were doing something wrong, but that they were stupid enough to get caught. Go fig.

Peter Cartoon · 11th August 2005, 07:56 AM

Latest polling numbers show that American believe the following:

Creationism .... 64%
Evolution .... 22%
ID .... 10%

Now you tell me, is it working? We are in serious trouble folks!

Lisa Simpson · 11th August 2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadtoad
*Schools that have already achieved the stated goals of NCLB are being punished unfairly, because now that they've made it, they still are held to the same standards as schools that haven't.

I hate the NCLB, but for other reasons.

As far as the above quote, it's my understanding that by the year 2014 all schools have to have 100% of students scoring as proficient and advanced. My youngest son's school currently only has 44% of students in those two categories. So each year until 2014, the bar will be raised slightly so they will get to that 100% (which I think is impossible, but what do I know).

slingblade · 11th August 2005, 08:41 AM

http://nochildleft.com/links.html

Utah, and now, apparently, Connecticut, have rejected NCLB, as well as the federal funding that goes along with it.

I have no other citations to supply, but I do have an observation:

It seems impossible, to me, to require diverse students with diverse abilities to adhere to a single standard.

I also think so much could be done (stating the baldly obvious here) if we'd fund education the way we "fund" professional athletics, so that we had the money to build more schools and train more teachers. Smaller class sizes and more highly educated teachers would bring a startling improvement in our students.

25th June 2005, 02:21 PM	#1
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	NCLB: Is it working? My son, Chris, who's studying to be a high school business teacher, (and is nearly finished with his college), and I have been having long discussions about the Bush Administration's No Child Left Behind policy. Chris is adamant that it isn't working, and has a lot of information about WHY it's not working. Chief among his complaints: Schools must show steady improvement in test scores, otherwise, the staff must be terminated from the schools that fail to do so. Teachers are now practically required to "teach to the test," rather than help kids develop critical thinking skills. The better part of the school's budget now doesn't go to the classroom, but it's now going to the bureaucracy. Schools that have already achieved the stated goals of NCLB are being punished unfairly, because now that they've made it, they still are held to the same standards as schools that haven't. I'd like to hear from others. Please, please, please, cite the information you provide. I'll try to get the 411 from Chris, and pass it on, too.

30th June 2005, 10:31 AM	#3
cbish Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Nevada City, CA Posts: 1,229	Is it working? I'm not sure. What's it supposed to do? Personally, I haven't payed much attention to it and I'm not sure I could differentiate a Federal program from a state one. We've had two meetings on the subject, the last one was in early '03. I have to admit, I haven't really spent much time on it, but I've heard a few things about it (which may or may not be true). Quote: Schools must show steady improvement in test scores, otherwise, the staff must be terminated from the schools that fail to do so. We are required to show improvement. The question is, how much improvement can one show? It's like proclaiming each year our students will fun faster. As far as the termination part goes, I haven't heard that. I know that if certain quotas are not met, we have to send a letter out to the parents stating the quota wasn't met. Quote: Teachers are now practically required to "teach to the test," rather than help kids develop critical thinking skills. This a criticism of all mandated exams. Quote: *The better part of the school's budget now doesn't go to the classroom, but it's now going to the bureaucracy. I don't know about "a better part", but still a valid criticism. A major point has been made how Bush has mandated this implementations but won't fund it. To me, this is just adding to the bureacracy. Some other points: I've heard that in NCLB one of the goals is to have every student read at grade level. An impossibility since grade level is a statistical mean. It's like proclaiming every American will live longer than the life expectancy. This isn't too alarming however. These statistics on intellegence confuse alot of presidents. President Eisenhower was shocked to learn that 50% of americans had below average intellegence. Also, every student is to be taught by a "highly qualified teacher". However, no has ever defined what that means exactly. That was the last NCLB meeting we had in '03. We filled out a form to see if we were highly qualified. I'm not sure where this form came from. It had standard things like years experience. But, it had some, what I would consider strange, questions. You got points for being a Union Rep. and things like that. Anyway, last month, we all got certificates that said we were highly qualified. I think I filed mine next to my Nuclear Attack Evacuation Plan.
	__________________ You have to live it to believe it! If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you!

30th June 2005, 02:15 PM	#4
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	One may have to deduce that cheating was as a result of the pressure to perform on standadized tests: "Caldwell Elementary was a shining star in the troubled Memphis city school system, working academic wonders in a tough environment. But school officials say much of Caldwell's success was a sham, and widely lauded principal Lirah Sabir has retired amid allegations she cheated to boost test scores. Sabir excluded the weakest students on test days, answer sheets were doctored and monitors were banned from the classroom, school officials say. Educators say the case illustrates the dark side of the nation's intense focus on school test scores." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/864160/posts "As the administrationâ€™s chief salesperson for No Child Left Behind, Paige has plenty of practice spouting lies and distortions. As the former superintendent of the Houston Independent School District--where he was the only public schools chief in the U.S. to employ a full-time public relations expert--Paige collaborated with then-Texas Gov. George W. Bush to create the fairy tale of the "Texas miracle" in education for inner-city schools." http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-...RodPaige.shtml "Chicago posted a failure rate of 82 percent. (If 82 percent of the schools in the district fail, to what other schools will the children transfer for relief?) Other school districts have had similar results. The National Education Association's Joel Packer, who has been lobbying Congress and the Department of Education to modify the legislation, says a Minnesota study concluded that, absent changes, about 80 percent of the schools in the state will be rated failures by 2012 -- the year we're supposed to witness the catching up of that last left-behind child." http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

30th June 2005, 03:45 PM	#5
cbish Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Nevada City, CA Posts: 1,229	We had our own cheating scandal here locally that Road Toad may recall. It was at Woodland H.S., in Woodland CA, a couple of years ago. I believe, a few teachers had seen the test previously and had "taught" specific test questions right before the test. I remember they were all terminated. Woodland HS is not exactly the mecca of education. In fact, I believe it's an "at risk" school. Those schools have different rules, however, to make things fair. I've heard of the pressure some schools feel to perform. My school has tried to instill that pressure on our faculty. Personally, I don't feel that pressure.
	__________________ You have to live it to believe it! If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you!

11th August 2005, 07:56 AM	#7
Peter Cartoon Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	The Numbers Don't Lie...... NO Latest polling numbers show that American believe the following: Creationism .... 64% Evolution .... 22% ID .... 10% Now you tell me, is it working? We are in serious trouble folks!
Peter Cartoon Student Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30

26th June 2005, 12:08 PM	#2
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	One link, regarding Voc Ed: check it out here. Also read this one.

30th June 2005, 08:18 PM	#6
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Quote: Originally posted by cbish We had our own cheating scandal here locally that Road Toad may recall. It was at Woodland H.S., in Woodland CA, a couple of years ago. I believe, a few teachers had seen the test previously and had "taught" specific test questions right before the test. I remember they were all terminated. Woodland HS is not exactly the mecca of education. In fact, I believe it's an "at risk" school. Those schools have different rules, however, to make things fair. I've heard of the pressure some schools feel to perform. My school has tried to instill that pressure on our faculty. Personally, I don't feel that pressure. You may be one of the fortunate few. I'm still reading about this, but if I recall correctly, the Compton School District, one of the worst in the state, gets more money per pupil, and still has one of the highest drop-out rates, and among the lowest scores for basic skills. I've yet to see how this helps those students. And yes, I remember the Woodland mess. The thing that struck me was that there were some who were complaining not that the teachers were doing something wrong, but that they were stupid enough to get caught. Go fig.

11th August 2005, 08:33 AM	#8
Lisa Simpson THE Lisa Simpson Administrator Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 123 Fake Street Posts: 20,062	Re: NCLB: Is it working? Quote: Originally posted by Roadtoad *Schools that have already achieved the stated goals of NCLB are being punished unfairly, because now that they've made it, they still are held to the same standards as schools that haven't. I hate the NCLB, but for other reasons. As far as the above quote, it's my understanding that by the year 2014 all schools have to have 100% of students scoring as proficient and advanced. My youngest son's school currently only has 44% of students in those two categories. So each year until 2014, the bar will be raised slightly so they will get to that 100% (which I think is impossible, but what do I know).
	__________________ That's what the Internet does -- you get a free bonus prize of Stupid Lies with every box of Delicious Facts. - cracked.com Facts are satanic litter on the heavenly highway to blind faith! - Betty Bowers

11th August 2005, 08:41 AM	#9
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	http://nochildleft.com/links.html Utah, and now, apparently, Connecticut, have rejected NCLB, as well as the federal funding that goes along with it. I have no other citations to supply, but I do have an observation: It seems impossible, to me, to require diverse students with diverse abilities to adhere to a single standard. I also think so much could be done (stating the baldly obvious here) if we'd fund education the way we "fund" professional athletics, so that we had the money to build more schools and train more teachers. Smaller class sizes and more highly educated teachers would bring a startling improvement in our students.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642