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Ashles · 28th June 2005, 05:47 AM

I've got responses at last to my question about why homeopathy is promoted at Netdoctor.co.uk

Interesting.

There included one person who claims their cat would be dead without it.

I'm sure Rolfe and BSM will find this interesting:

Quote:

My experience of homeopathy was actually with my cat Chloe.
She had severe vomiting, pain due to severe pancreatitis
and oesophagitis - why thses had arisen was no clear.
Pancreatitis can kill. After various allopathic treatments
which had failed my cat was very sick indeed. I had
difficulty getting just a spoonful of food down her - any
food even chicken. She was anorectic and just wasting away
before our eyes. In desperation, i asked the allopathic vet
to refer my cat to a homeopathic vet [traditional training
with extra homeopathic qualification] for a second opinion
some 30 miles away. The vets had already spoken about the
state of my cat and clinical noters had been faxed. The
homeopathic vet came out to visit us the next day, spent
several hours at our house and the treatment that she
provided cured my cat. Yes, it is an animal not a human so
there cannot be any psychological effects.

One thing that homeopathic vets are good at doing is
treating the whole animal. She recognised that ALL
manufactured pet foods contained additives were making my
cat ill. Including the normal veterinary ones.

Since then, on the rare ocassions that my cat has been
unwell, my cat has fared much better with the homeopathy.
Had i not turned to homeopathy my cat would now be dead!

Badly Shaved Monkey · 28th June 2005, 06:49 AM

Oh, great an unthinking layperson is the reference point!

Darat · 28th June 2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Oh, great an unthinking layperson is the reference point!

Well I wouldnâ€™t quite call that the person making up that tale above a "layperson", as soon as I read someone saying "allopath" you know they are a serious proponent of homeopathy.

MRC_Hans · 28th June 2005, 07:21 AM

Quite! And the additives talk. Of course, she might just be parroting the homeopath.

Hans

Olaf/QII · 28th June 2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles
I've got responses at last to my question about why homeopathy is promoted at Netdoctor.co.uk

Interesting.

There included one person who claims their cat would be dead without it.

I'm sure Rolfe and BSM will find this interesting:

why shouldn't they?

afterall, france has almost 20,000 MDs who use homeopathy.

Germany has close to 50,000 MDs who use it.

They use it because it can work. Does not always work but is quite capable of working.

Dr Louis Rey and the Italian chemists (Elia and Nicola) have given us a mechanism. Samal and Geckler have done the same (Korean study that appeared in Chemical Communications Journal).

=========================
Here are some links for you to take a look at..

http://www.siib.org/Pub_DrJonas.asp

http://www.siib.org/Publications.asp

Wayne B Jonas MD

http://www.headtraumarehab.com/pt/re...II6M2znqv32GVl!-796981593!-949856031!9001!-1
Homeopathic Treatment of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial.

http://www.siib.org/Downloads/jonas_dillnerJSE2000.pdf

Jonas, W.B., Dillner, D.K. Protection of mice from tularemia infection with ultra-low, serial agitated dilutions prepared from F. tularensis-infected tissue. Journal of Scientific Exploration. 2000; 14: 35-52.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Neurotoxicology. 2002 Sep;23(3):307-12.
Non-linear effects of cycloheximide in glutamate-treated cultured rat cerebellar neurons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
Int J Neurosci. 2003 Apr;113(4):491-502
Nonlinear effects of glutamate and KCl on glutamate toxicity in cultured rat cerebellar neurons.

Darat · 28th June 2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
why shouldn't they?

...snip....

Because, so far homeopathic remedies have not been shown to be an effective treatment for any illness or condition.

patnray · 28th June 2005, 09:02 AM

She should have taken her cat to a scientific vet instead of to an allopath. Allopathy was discredited over 100 years ago...

Olaf/QII · 28th June 2005, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darat
Because, so far homeopathic remedies have not been shown to be an effective treatment for any illness or condition.

that is only partially true.

homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it.

it is very hit or miss.

However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4779&query_hl=1

Chest. 2005 Mar;127(3):936-41.

Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in critically ill patients.

Frass M, Dielacher C, Linkesch M, Endler C, Muchitsch I, Schuster E, Kaye A.

Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Homeopathy, Duerergasse 4, A 8010 Graz, Austria. michael.frass@kabsi.at

BACKGROUND: Stringy, tenacious tracheal secretions may prevent extubation in patients weaned from the respirator. This prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study with parallel assignment was performed to assess the influence of sublingually administered potassium dichromate C30 on the amount of tenacious, stringy tracheal secretions in critically ill patients with a history of tobacco use and COPD. METHODS: In this study, 50 patients breathing spontaneously with continuous positive airway pressure were receiving either potassium dichromate C30 globules (group 1) [Deutsche Homoopathie-Union, Pharmaceutical Company; Karlsruhe, Germany] or placebo (group 2). Five globules were administered twice daily at intervals of 12 h. The amount of tracheal secretions on day 2 after the start of the study as well as the time for successful extubation and length of stay in the ICU were recorded. RESULTS: The amount of tracheal secretions was reduced significantly in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Extubation could be performed significantly earlier in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Similarly, length of stay was significantly shorter in group 1 (4.20 +/- 1.61 days vs 7.68 +/- 3.60 days, p < 0.0001 [mean +/- SD]). CONCLUSION: These data suggest that potentized (diluted and vigorously shaken) potassium dichromate may help to decrease the amount of stringy tracheal secretions in COPD patients.

Donks · 28th June 2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
why shouldn't they?

afterall, france has almost 20,000 MDs who use homeopathy.

Germany has close to 50,000 MDs who use it.

So we're back to "over 100,000 Medical Doctors!!!!!!!!!!"? Are you going to put that in a pretty color and big font in your signature? You should try to get the authentic crayon look, to make the form match the content.

Olaf/QII · 28th June 2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donks
So we're back to "over 100,000 Medical Doctors!!!!!!!!!!"? Are you going to put that in a pretty color and big font in your signature? You should try to get the authentic crayon look, to make the form match the content.

20 + 50 = 70
however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000.

that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling.

maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion.

Ashles · 28th June 2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
that is only partially true.

homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it.

it is very hit or miss.

However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4779&query_hl=1

Dozens eh? How come we keep seeing the same ones over and over again then?
For example you mention that same study here , and again here where it is criticised several times.

It seems like you only have a couple of studies which you keep throwing in in the hope we won't notice they are the same ones.

If there are 'dozens and dozens' could we have some new ones please?

Ashles · 28th June 2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
20 + 50 = 70
however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000.

that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling.

maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion.

Unsettling? Why? Is there a limit to how many people can be wrong about something?

Surely even you wouldn't go down the route of appeal to popularity?
I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything.
Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well.

rwguinn · 28th June 2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles
Unsettling? Why? Is there a limit to how many people can be wrong about something?

Surely even you wouldn't go down the route of appeal to popularity?
I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything.
Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well.

Ashless--
you are forgetting that in the 14th and 15th centuries, hundreds of millions of people knew that the earth was flat.
How could that many people possibly be wrong?

TobiasTheViking · 28th June 2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII

They use it because it can work. Does not always work but is quite capable of working.

i guess it works about as well as any other placebo.

"yeah, this sugar cube will help"(as a placebo)
"yeah, this homepathy will help"(as a placebo)
"yeah, this magnet will help"(as a placebo)

Ad nauseum

Donks · 28th June 2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
20 + 50 = 70
however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000.

that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling.

maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion.

You used to have it in your signature. In your olaf account, remember? Lookie here.

Ashles · 28th June 2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwguinn
Ashless--
you are forgetting that in the 14th and 15th centuries, hundreds of millions of people knew that the earth was flat.

Um, you might want to read my sig.

TobiasTheViking · 28th June 2005, 11:34 AM

it is also in this one.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...threadid=58946

Darat · 28th June 2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
that is only partially true.

homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it.

it is very hit or miss.

However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something.

...snip...

Since there is no proof of effectiveness (for any homeopathic remedy) it is not ethical to recommend homeopathic treatment for any condition.

rwguinn · 28th June 2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles
Um, you might want to read my sig.

Are you trying to tell me my 3rd grade teacher was wrong? You expect me to change from what I know by referencing only one source?
Ha!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own"! (Mythbusters credo)

Olaf/QII · 28th June 2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashles
I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything.
Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well.

There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs.

There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism.

TobiasTheViking · 28th June 2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs.

There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism.

i fail to see how homepathy isn't a religion.

Ashles · 28th June 2005, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs.

But you are citing the number of people who believe in homeopathy as some kind of evidence towards its efficacy.

You agree then that it isn't?

Well okay then.

patnray · 28th June 2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism.

There is a very small amount of research showing that some researchers can sometimes produce small effects in unstable systems using SADs.

There is a mind bogglingly huge volume of research (enough to fill libraries) showing scientific medical treatments are safe and effective for a wide array of conditions, and also research demonstrating actual mechanisms of disease processes and treatment success.

Sarah-I · 28th June 2005, 03:35 PM

Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person.

patnray · 28th June 2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person.

So how do you feel about those TV ads promoting homepathic oscillococcinum as an OTC remedy to treat the flu?

Got any research demonstrating the homepathic theory of disease mechanisms?

Olaf/QII · 28th June 2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person.

Very good, i like that.

Sarah-I · 28th June 2005, 04:04 PM

Thanks Olaf.

Yes Pantray, I have. There have been several books written on the subject.

patnray · 28th June 2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases.

Because it can't.

I said research demonstrating the homeopathic theory of disease. You know, disturbances in the vital force, spritual transmission of disease, etc. Anyone can have a book printed. Where's the volumes of research validating any part of the theory?

patnray · 28th June 2005, 04:17 PM

And you avoided my question: So how do you feel about those TV ads promoting homepathic oscillococcinum as an OTC remedy to treat the flu? Is that valid homeopathic practice, or not?

patnray · 28th June 2005, 04:24 PM

Homeopathic answer #1: Avoid the question.
Homeopathic answer #2: (If the patient got better) Yes.
Homeopathic answer #3: (If the patient didn't get better) No, you have the treat ALL the symptoms....

Sarah-I · 29th June 2005, 03:07 AM

Pantray,

Homeopathy does not treat diseases directly because it treats the person with the disease rather than the disease itself. By treating the person, changes will occur on all levels, including a physical level.

Also, I do not agree with the advertising of a specific remedy for flu. If the remedy does not fit the symptom picture, then it is not homeopathic.

Patients can present with flu that fits totally different remedy pictures, which is why an acute case needs to be taken to find that remedy. Patients can present with a high fever and quick onset, that might fit an Aconite picture. There then maybe others that have aching muscles and a slow onset that would fit a Gelsemium picture and so it goes on.

IT IS NOT HOMEOPATHIC UNLESS IT FITS THE SYMPTOMS.

A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy. I have some back copies here and will look at them today if I have time.

Mojo · 29th June 2005, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it.

it is very hit or miss.

Translation:
Sometimes the patient gets better, so homeopaths claim that the treatment worked. Sometimes the patient doesn't get better, so homeopaths then claim that the treatment would have worked if it had been the right one.

Mojo · 29th June 2005, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy.

And, of course, they have no vested interest at all.

Darat · 29th June 2005, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Pantray,

Homeopathy does not treat diseases directly because it treats the person with the disease rather than the disease itself. By treating the person, changes will occur on all levels, including a physical level.

Also, I do not agree with the advertising of a specific remedy for flu. If the remedy does not fit the symptom picture, then it is not homeopathic.

Patients can present with flu that fits totally different remedy pictures, which is why an acute case needs to be taken to find that remedy. Patients can present with a high fever and quick onset, that might fit an Aconite picture. There then maybe others that have aching muscles and a slow onset that would fit a Gelsemium picture and so it goes on.

IT IS NOT HOMEOPATHIC UNLESS IT FITS THE SYMPTOMS.

A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy. I have some back copies here and will look at them today if I have time.

Are you therefore saying that no homeopathic treatment can ever be shown to be effective via clinical trails.

Also as I am sure your are aware yours is just one of the many opinions on what "homeopathic" means, there is no apparent consensus even amongst people who state they are homeopaths.

Mojo · 29th June 2005, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
Dr Louis Rey and the Italian chemists (Elia and Nicola) have given us a mechanism.

No they haven't. They've just noticed a couple of anomalous effects, which do not appear to have been replicated. If they had been, I'm sure you would have been able to provide references, rather than trotting out the tired old Raphael Visocekas quote from the New Scientist article.

Incidentally, whenever you produce that quotation, you claim it was a statement made by "other physicists," rather than just a comment from Visocekas. Who were the "other physicists"? Surely you're not claiming that Visocekas is more than one person?

Donks · 29th June 2005, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo
tired old Raphael Visocekas quote

Well, the guy is retired. You didn't expect a retired man to produce a nubile young quote, did you?

Badly Shaved Monkey · 29th June 2005, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo
Who were the "other physicists"? Surely you're not claiming that Visocekas is more than one person?

I frankly don't see your problem. Visocekas has an 's' at the end. That means it's a plural. Why are you so dumb?

Sarah-I · 29th June 2005, 05:00 AM

Mojo,

No more of a vested interest than the BMJ.

Darat,

No, I am not saying that homeopathy can never be proved in clinic trials. The trials have to be well designed and that is what Bach and Hans are taling about at this moment over at www.otherhealth.com They are talking about designing a protocol and hopefully, this protocol will come to fruition.

Darat · 29th June 2005, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarah-I
Mojo,

No more of a vested interest than the BMJ.

Darat,

No, I am not saying that homeopathy can never be proved in clinic trials. The trials have to be well designed and that is what Bach and Hans are taling about at this moment over at www.otherhealth.com They are talking about designing a protocol and hopefully, this protocol will come to fruition.

Ok, then you are saying that homeopathy can be tested.

Can you now explain to me how you can consider it ethical to dispense a treatment to a person that you cannot know the effectiveness of and also have no data on the safety or not of the treatment?

Sarah-I · 29th June 2005, 05:53 AM

I do know the effectiveness of remedies through clinical practice.

28th June 2005, 05:47 AM	#1
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk I've got responses at last to my question about why homeopathy is promoted at Netdoctor.co.uk Interesting. There included one person who claims their cat would be dead without it. I'm sure Rolfe and BSM will find this interesting: Quote: My experience of homeopathy was actually with my cat Chloe. She had severe vomiting, pain due to severe pancreatitis and oesophagitis - why thses had arisen was no clear. Pancreatitis can kill. After various allopathic treatments which had failed my cat was very sick indeed. I had difficulty getting just a spoonful of food down her - any food even chicken. She was anorectic and just wasting away before our eyes. In desperation, i asked the allopathic vet to refer my cat to a homeopathic vet [traditional training with extra homeopathic qualification] for a second opinion some 30 miles away. The vets had already spoken about the state of my cat and clinical noters had been faxed. The homeopathic vet came out to visit us the next day, spent several hours at our house and the treatment that she provided cured my cat. Yes, it is an animal not a human so there cannot be any psychological effects. One thing that homeopathic vets are good at doing is treating the whole animal. She recognised that ALL manufactured pet foods contained additives were making my cat ill. Including the normal veterinary ones. Since then, on the rare ocassions that my cat has been unwell, my cat has fared much better with the homeopathy. Had i not turned to homeopathy my cat would now be dead!
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

28th June 2005, 07:21 AM	#4
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Quite! And the additives talk. Of course, she might just be parroting the homeopath. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

28th June 2005, 08:48 AM	#5
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440	Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Ashles I've got responses at last to my question about why homeopathy is promoted at Netdoctor.co.uk Interesting. There included one person who claims their cat would be dead without it. I'm sure Rolfe and BSM will find this interesting: why shouldn't they? afterall, france has almost 20,000 MDs who use homeopathy. Germany has close to 50,000 MDs who use it. They use it because it can work. Does not always work but is quite capable of working. Dr Louis Rey and the Italian chemists (Elia and Nicola) have given us a mechanism. Samal and Geckler have done the same (Korean study that appeared in Chemical Communications Journal). ========================= Here are some links for you to take a look at.. http://www.siib.org/Pub_DrJonas.asp http://www.siib.org/Publications.asp Wayne B Jonas MD http://www.headtraumarehab.com/pt/re...II6M2znqv32GVl!-796981593!-949856031!9001!-1 Homeopathic Treatment of Mild Traumatic Brain Injury: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial. http://www.siib.org/Downloads/jonas_dillnerJSE2000.pdf Jonas, W.B., Dillner, D.K. Protection of mice from tularemia infection with ultra-low, serial agitated dilutions prepared from F. tularensis-infected tissue. Journal of Scientific Exploration. 2000; 14: 35-52. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract Neurotoxicology. 2002 Sep;23(3):307-12. Non-linear effects of cycloheximide in glutamate-treated cultured rat cerebellar neurons. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract Int J Neurosci. 2003 Apr;113(4):491-502 Nonlinear effects of glutamate and KCl on glutamate toxicity in cultured rat cerebellar neurons.
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440

28th June 2005, 08:54 AM	#6
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,988	Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII why shouldn't they? ...snip.... Because, so far homeopathic remedies have not been shown to be an effective treatment for any illness or condition.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th June 2005, 09:02 AM	#7
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	She should have taken her cat to a scientific vet instead of to an allopath. Allopathy was discredited over 100 years ago...
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

28th June 2005, 06:49 AM	#2
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 5,264	Oh, great an unthinking layperson is the reference point!
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

28th June 2005, 07:01 AM	#3
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,988	Quote: Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey Oh, great an unthinking layperson is the reference point! Well I wouldnâ€™t quite call that the person making up that tale above a "layperson", as soon as I read someone saying "allopath" you know they are a serious proponent of homeopathy.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th June 2005, 09:30 AM	#8
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440	Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Darat *Because, so far homeopathic* remedies have not been shown to be an effective treatment for any illness or condition. that is only partially true. homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it. it is very hit or miss. However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4779&query_hl=1 Chest. 2005 Mar;127(3):936-41. Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in critically ill patients. Frass M, Dielacher C, Linkesch M, Endler C, Muchitsch I, Schuster E, Kaye A. Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Homeopathy, Duerergasse 4, A 8010 Graz, Austria. michael.frass@kabsi.at BACKGROUND: Stringy, tenacious tracheal secretions may prevent extubation in patients weaned from the respirator. This prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study with parallel assignment was performed to assess the influence of sublingually administered potassium dichromate C30 on the amount of tenacious, stringy tracheal secretions in critically ill patients with a history of tobacco use and COPD. METHODS: In this study, 50 patients breathing spontaneously with continuous positive airway pressure were receiving either potassium dichromate C30 globules (group 1) [Deutsche Homoopathie-Union, Pharmaceutical Company; Karlsruhe, Germany] or placebo (group 2). Five globules were administered twice daily at intervals of 12 h. The amount of tracheal secretions on day 2 after the start of the study as well as the time for successful extubation and length of stay in the ICU were recorded. RESULTS: The amount of tracheal secretions was reduced significantly in group 1 (p < 0.0001).** Extubation could be performed significantly earlier in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Similarly, length of stay was significantly shorter in group 1 (4.20 +/- 1.61 days vs 7.68 +/- 3.60 days, p < 0.0001 [mean +/- SD]). CONCLUSION: These data suggest that potentized (diluted and vigorously shaken) potassium dichromate may help to decrease the amount of stringy tracheal secretions in COPD patients.
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440

28th June 2005, 09:47 AM	#9
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII why shouldn't they? afterall, france has almost 20,000 MDs who use homeopathy. Germany has close to 50,000 MDs who use it. So we're back to "over 100,000 Medical Doctors!!!!!!!!!!"? Are you going to put that in a pretty color and big font in your signature? You should try to get the authentic crayon look, to make the form match the content.
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

28th June 2005, 10:21 AM	#10
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440	Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Donks So we're back to "over 100,000 Medical Doctors!!!!!!!!!!"? Are you going to put that in a pretty color and big font in your signature? You should try to get the authentic crayon look, to make the form match the content. 20 + 50 = 70 however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000. that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling. maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion.
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440

28th June 2005, 10:44 AM	#11
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII that is only partially true. homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it. it is very hit or miss. However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4779&query_hl=1 Dozens eh? How come we keep seeing the same ones over and over again then? For example you mention that same study here , and again here where it is criticised several times. It seems like you only have a couple of studies which you keep throwing in in the hope we won't notice they are the same ones. If there are 'dozens and dozens' could we have some new ones please?
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

28th June 2005, 10:47 AM	#12
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII 20 + 50 = 70 however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000. that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling. maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion. Unsettling? Why? Is there a limit to how many people can be wrong about something? Surely even you wouldn't go down the route of appeal to popularity? I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything. Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

28th June 2005, 10:52 AM	#13
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,505	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Ashles Unsettling? Why? Is there a limit to how many people can be wrong about something? Surely even you wouldn't go down the route of appeal to popularity? I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything. Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well. Ashless-- you are forgetting that in the 14th and 15th centuries, hundreds of millions of people knew that the earth was flat. How could that many people possibly be wrong?
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

28th June 2005, 11:05 AM	#14
TobiasTheViking Resident Viking Autist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: With your mother Posts: 6,923	Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII They use it because it can work. Does not always work but is quite capable of working. i guess it works about as well as any other placebo. "yeah, this sugar cube will help"(as a placebo) "yeah, this homepathy will help"(as a placebo) "yeah, this magnet will help"(as a placebo) Ad nauseum

28th June 2005, 11:07 AM	#15
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII 20 + 50 = 70 however, if you include all the MDs from throughout europe you might have 100,000. that is mighty impressive and something that the skeptics and pseudoskeptics would find most unsettling. maybe i should include it in my signature. thank you for the suggestion. You used to have it in your signature. In your olaf account, remember? Lookie here.
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

28th June 2005, 11:13 AM	#16
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by rwguinn Ashless-- you are forgetting that in the 14th and 15th centuries, hundreds of millions of people knew that the earth was flat. Um, you might want to read my sig.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

28th June 2005, 11:34 AM	#17
TobiasTheViking Resident Viking Autist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: With your mother Posts: 6,923	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk it is also in this one. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...threadid=58946

28th June 2005, 11:42 AM	#18
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,988	Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII that is only partially true. homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it. it is very hit or miss. However, we have dozens upon dozens of studies like the one below that show that it is capable of doing something. ...snip... Since there is no proof of effectiveness (for any homeopathic remedy) it is not ethical to recommend homeopathic treatment for any condition.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

28th June 2005, 01:00 PM	#19
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,505	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Ashles Um, you might want to read my sig. Are you trying to tell me my 3rd grade teacher was wrong? You expect me to change from what I know by referencing only one source? Ha! "I reject your reality and substitute my own"! (Mythbusters credo)
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

28th June 2005, 02:19 PM	#20
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Ashles I guess if you are then you are also making a case for Christians and Muslims and Buddhists all being correct. You know, since there are so many of them and everything. Oh and there's a lot of Atheists too. I guess they're correct as well. There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs. There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism.
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440

28th June 2005, 02:27 PM	#21
TobiasTheViking Resident Viking Autist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: With your mother Posts: 6,923	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs. There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism. i fail to see how homepathy isn't a religion.

28th June 2005, 02:51 PM	#22
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,711	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII There is a huge difference between religious beliefs which have no evidence and is mostly based on faith and the science of ultradilute solutions or SADs. But you are citing the number of people who believe in homeopathy as some kind of evidence towards its efficacy. You agree then that it isn't? Well okay then.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell No one "proved" that a bumblebee can't fly. What was shown was that a certain simple mathematical model wasn't adequate or appropriate - Ivars Peterson

28th June 2005, 03:33 PM	#23
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII There is a tremendous amount of research showing that SADs are bioactive, and also research showing a potential mechanism. There is a very small amount of research showing that some researchers can sometimes produce small effects in unstable systems using SADs. There is a mind bogglingly huge volume of research (enough to fill libraries) showing scientific medical treatments are safe and effective for a wide array of conditions, and also research demonstrating actual mechanisms of disease processes and treatment success.
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

28th June 2005, 03:35 PM	#24
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295	Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person.
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295

28th June 2005, 03:59 PM	#25
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	Quote: Originally posted by Sarah-I Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person. So how do you feel about those TV ads promoting homepathic oscillococcinum as an OTC remedy to treat the flu? Got any research demonstrating the homepathic theory of disease mechanisms?
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

28th June 2005, 04:00 PM	#26
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440	Quote: Originally posted by Sarah-I Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. It treats the person. Very good, i like that.
Olaf/QII Guest Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 440

28th June 2005, 04:04 PM	#27
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295	Thanks Olaf. Yes Pantray, I have. There have been several books written on the subject.
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295

28th June 2005, 04:14 PM	#28
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	Quote: Originally posted by Sarah-I Homeopathy does not claim to treat any specific diseases. Because it can't. I said research demonstrating the homeopathic theory of disease. You know, disturbances in the vital force, spritual transmission of disease, etc. Anyone can have a book printed. Where's the volumes of research validating any part of the theory?
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

28th June 2005, 04:17 PM	#29
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	And you avoided my question: So how do you feel about those TV ads promoting homepathic oscillococcinum as an OTC remedy to treat the flu? Is that valid homeopathic practice, or not?
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

28th June 2005, 04:24 PM	#30
patnray Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,008	Homeopathic answer #1: Avoid the question. Homeopathic answer #2: (If the patient got better) Yes. Homeopathic answer #3: (If the patient didn't get better) No, you have the treat ALL the symptoms....
	__________________ Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali A powerful and moving story of a strong and courageous woman’s struggle to free herself from a culture that treats women as property. Despite repeated death threats from religious zealots, she campaigns tirelessly for the rights of Muslim women. A tearful, chilling, yet inspiring, tale of personal triumph and dedication to free expression.

29th June 2005, 03:07 AM	#31
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295	Pantray, Homeopathy does not treat diseases directly because it treats the person with the disease rather than the disease itself. By treating the person, changes will occur on all levels, including a physical level. Also, I do not agree with the advertising of a specific remedy for flu. If the remedy does not fit the symptom picture, then it is not homeopathic. Patients can present with flu that fits totally different remedy pictures, which is why an acute case needs to be taken to find that remedy. Patients can present with a high fever and quick onset, that might fit an Aconite picture. There then maybe others that have aching muscles and a slow onset that would fit a Gelsemium picture and so it goes on. IT IS NOT HOMEOPATHIC UNLESS IT FITS THE SYMPTOMS. A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy. I have some back copies here and will look at them today if I have time.
Sarah-I Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 295

29th June 2005, 03:41 AM	#32
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,488	Re: Re: Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII homeopathy can not be compared to drug therapies (drug therapies rarely -- if ever-- solve chronic conditions). the reason is due to the individual nature of it. it is very hit or miss. Translation: Sometimes the patient gets better, so homeopaths claim that the treatment worked. Sometimes the patient doesn't get better, so homeopaths then claim that the treatment would have worked if it had been the right one.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

29th June 2005, 03:43 AM	#33
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,488	Quote: Originally posted by Sarah-I A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy. And, of course, they have no vested interest at all.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

29th June 2005, 03:45 AM	#34
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,988	Quote: Originally posted by Sarah-I Pantray, Homeopathy does not treat diseases directly because it treats the person with the disease rather than the disease itself. By treating the person, changes will occur on all levels, including a physical level. Also, I do not agree with the advertising of a specific remedy for flu. If the remedy does not fit the symptom picture, then it is not homeopathic. Patients can present with flu that fits totally different remedy pictures, which is why an acute case needs to be taken to find that remedy. Patients can present with a high fever and quick onset, that might fit an Aconite picture. There then maybe others that have aching muscles and a slow onset that would fit a Gelsemium picture and so it goes on. IT IS NOT HOMEOPATHIC UNLESS IT FITS THE SYMPTOMS. A good journal to look at is the journal of the Faculty of Homeopathy called Homeopathy. I have some back copies here and will look at them today if I have time. Are you therefore saying that no homeopathic treatment can ever be shown to be effective via clinical trails. Also as I am sure your are aware yours is just one of the many opinions on what "homeopathic" means, there is no apparent consensus even amongst people who state they are homeopaths.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

29th June 2005, 03:50 AM	#35
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,488	Re: Re: Defense of homeopathy at netdoctor.co.uk Quote: Originally posted by Olaf/QII Dr Louis Rey and the Italian chemists (Elia and Nicola) have given us a mechanism. No they haven't. They've just noticed a couple of anomalous effects, which do not appear to have been replicated. If they had been, I'm sure you would have been able to provide references, rather than trotting out the tired old Raphael Visocekas quote from the New Scientist article. Incidentally, whenever you produce that quotation, you claim it was a statement made by "other physicists," rather than just a comment from Visocekas. Who were the "other physicists"? Surely you're not claiming that Visocekas is more than one person?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky