Organizations With "Truth" In The Name

Yahweh · 5th July 2005, 08:56 PM

Nothing makes me more skeptical when I come across an organization or a group who use the word "Truth" in their name. Its almost used in an Orwellian "Ministry of Truth" way.

Here are just a few examples:

TrueOrigins: "Much of the material published by evolutionists embodies precisely such a pseudo-scientific bias, often articulated under the pretense that it is the product only of purely objective and unprejudiced study."

TheTruth.com: An website dedicated to exposing "Big Tobacco", the website might have good intentions but I get the feeling that everything they feature on their website is garbage from a skeptical point of view.

Swiftboat Veterans for Truth: a partisan group who tried to demolish the credibility of '04 Democratic candidate John Kerry.

Operation Truth: it is intended to give you the "the real news" behind the Iraqi war.

TheTruthSeeker.co.uk: "Behind the headlines - conspiracies, cover-ups, ancient mysteries and more. Real news and perspectives that you won't find in the mainstream media." Among other things, one of the outrageous stories I came across was one claiming the US is murdering its own journalists in Iraq.

Bowling for Truth: A catalogue of "Michael Moore's Lies".

9/11 Truth: "911Truth.Org is a campaign to educate the public about the Sept. 11th coverup and inspire popular pressure to overturn the "incompetence theory" and expose the truth surrounding the events of 9/11; namely, that elements within the U.S. government must have been complicit, or worse, for the attacks to happen the way they did."

The Truth about George Bush: "The Truth About George has diligently documented the misdeeds of Bush and his cronies since 2002, revealing the cold hard facts about an administration bent on rewarding big corporations and the rich, turning back the clock on women's rights and civil rights, and promoting a U.S. empire abroad."

Almost all of these websites with a "truth" perspective have a political spin, I cant afford to keep buying new irony meters

Phrost · 5th July 2005, 10:29 PM

Not getting into philosophy here, but there's a reason why "Truth" is used instead of "Facts". Truth is subjective.

DavoMan · 6th July 2005, 02:24 AM

Except for 'objective truth'. :P

wahrheit · 6th July 2005, 07:25 AM

Not only political spin, seems like a religious thing, too:

Divine Truth Christian Store

Points Of Truth

Grace and Truth

Truth Christian

Scripture Truth

Source Of Truth

Oh, a mix of both:

Conservative Truth
("The Antidote to the Liberal News Media")

DuckTapeFileMan · 6th July 2005, 07:57 AM

It just shows that these organisations have[edit typo]no sense of irony.

delphi_ote · 6th July 2005, 09:22 AM

I think it comes with the territory. Political and religious groups exist because they create stability and order in a community. To maintain that order, it is necessary to sustain the illusion that the organization itself provides absolute truth, or was born of absolute truth.

Those within the group exist to sustain and propagate this "truth." To question it at all endangers the social structure and the pleasant delusion of knowing "right" and "wrong" as absolutely and simply as "black" and "white." Those outside the group are somehow "less." Those within are assumed to be good and what they say is always within the context of the absolute truth. Outsiders might try to trick you. Insiders can be trusted.

I've always called it "chosen person syndrome." It's an old meme that was sucessful a long time ago, but it's out-lived its time. We've outgrown it. We see now that humanity is one large group that we all belong to, and science and reason provide universal facts for all independent of circumstance. No matter how many times they put "truth" in the title of their organizations, we can prove when they're lying.

Yahweh · 6th July 2005, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by delphi_ote
No matter how many times they put "truth" in the title of their organizations, we can prove when they're lying.

I'm really interested to see what "truth" is in this organization:

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
TheTruth.com: An website dedicated to exposing "Big Tobacco"

I notice all of the facts on that website are notoriously undocumented and unreferenced, and I wouldnt be surprised if the site were really bending some truths. But, I havent come across anything that examines the website's claims.

phildonnia · 6th July 2005, 10:13 AM

Kinda like countries with "democratic" in the name.

Peter Morris · 6th July 2005, 11:09 AM

Books too.

We Live Forever: The Real Truth About Death

The Truth About Sex : What the World Won't Tell You and God Wants You to Know

Day of Deceit : The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor

The Seven Myths of Gun Control : Reclaiming the Truth About Guns, Crime, and the Second Amendment

The Truth About God: The Ten Commandments in Christian Life

The Truth About Witchcraft

To Die For : The Dangerous Truth About Following Christ

TRUTH ABOUT GHOSTS, SPIRITS, HAUNTINGS AND REUNIONS OF LOVED ONES

I'm always wary of "truth about" books, especially on paranormal subjects. Anyone who makes a point of telling you that he's honest, probably isn't.

wahrheit · 6th July 2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by delphi_ote
I think it comes with the territory. Political and religious groups exist because they create stability and order in a community. To maintain that order, it is necessary to sustain the illusion that the organization itself provides absolute truth, or was born of absolute truth. *snip*

Hm, why am I thinking of 1984 now...

Kopji · 6th July 2005, 01:01 PM

To know something as it really is has an exceptional value like diamonds.

Perhaps it is no wonder that when people only have glass to offer, they try promote it as the real thing.

Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence.

kookbreaker · 6th July 2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kopji

Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence.

Except for the Debeers marketing campaign.

LibraryLady · 6th July 2005, 01:23 PM

No one has mentioned Pravda?

delphi_ote · 6th July 2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kopji
Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence.

Well put. That's why when I see a politician or preacher dodging evidence with a reply of "it's unpatriotic to question" or "don't question God's will," I always wish someone would ask, "If you're right, the evidence will bear that out no matter how much we question. If what you claim is true, every bit of investigation will prove that over and over. Why are you so angry about our asking questions? Are you afraid you might be wrong?"

DavoMan · 6th July 2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Morris
Books too.

We Live Forever: The Real Truth About Death

The Truth About Sex : What the World Won't Tell You and God Wants You to Know

Day of Deceit : The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor

The Seven Myths of Gun Control : Reclaiming the Truth About Guns, Crime, and the Second Amendment

The Truth About God: The Ten Commandments in Christian Life

The Truth About Witchcraft

To Die For : The Dangerous Truth About Following Christ

TRUTH ABOUT GHOSTS, SPIRITS, HAUNTINGS AND REUNIONS OF LOVED ONES

I'm always wary of "truth about" books, especially on paranormal subjects. Anyone who makes a point of telling you that he's honest, probably isn't.

What about the truth about Uri Geller :P

El_Spectre · 6th July 2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kopji
To know something as it really is has an exceptional value like diamonds.

Perhaps it is no wonder that when people only have glass to offer, they try promote it as the real thing.

Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence.

The problem is that gem quality diamonds are worthless except as decoration

Kopji · 7th July 2005, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by El_Spectre
The problem is that gem quality diamonds are worthless except as decoration

I know of at least a couple gem quality diamonds that were made into lens for spacecraft. Here's a funny story about one of them:

Quote:

...There is a large diamond on Venus. This diamond helped to prove that Murphy's Law works on other planets besides Earth.

The Soviets used the diamond as a front glass to protect the lens of the camera on their spacecraft. Venera 13 and Venera 14 sent back colour photographs of the surface of Venus. On the way down through the atmosphere, the lens cap was left on the camera to protect the lens from the clouds of sulphuric acid. But once the spacecraft had landed, the lens cap was thrown off, exposing the diamond front glass. Diamond is the hardest substance known in the Universe to the human race, and the Soviets thought that it would not be affected by the terrible atmosphere.

Each spacecraft also had an experiment called the "Dynamic Penetrometer". The Penetrometer was a spring-loaded arm with a point on the end of it. The point would penetrate deep into soft ground, but not so deep into hard ground.

The photographs from Venera 13 show the penetrometer point embedded in the soil, and the lens cap off to one side. But the photographs from Venera 14 show that the point of the penetrometer landed exactly on the lens cap. This is proof that Murphy's Law is a universal law. The diamond is still waiting on the surface of Venus. If you want to get it, all you need is the space fare. o

So there ya go, a useful gem quality diamond.

And DeBeers is easily dispatched with $15,000 diamonds made for only $100 each. "They are too perfect".
o

Hey, I may use colorful or poetic metaphors, but I defend them!

El_Spectre · 7th July 2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kopji
So there ya go, a useful gem quality diamond.

Hey, that's cool... I didn't know about that, thanks!

Tanja · 7th July 2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LibraryLady
No one has mentioned Pravda?

Pravda means justice, not truth.

Cleon · 7th July 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanja
Pravda means justice, not truth.

No, "pravda" does mean "(the) truth." It's used the same way "verdad" is in Spanish.

The Russian word for justice is "spravedlivost"--they're related, but not the same.

Tanja · 7th July 2005, 09:18 AM

Oops, sorry. My mother tongue is Croatian, which is reasonably similar to Russian - and in Croatian, "pravda" means justice. "Istina" means truth. I therefore assumed it would have the same meaning in Russian.

Cleon · 7th July 2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanja
Oops, sorry. My mother tongue is Croatian, which is reasonably similar to Russian - and in Croatian, "pravda" means justice. "Istina" means truth. I therefore assumed it would have the same meaning in Russian.

Interesting...Russian also has the word "istina," which also means truth. I'm not sure exactly what the conceptual difference is between "pravda" and "istina," if there is one. Like I said, "pravda" is used like "verdad" in Spanish--it's used a lot as a factual truth.

"Eta pravda" ("this is true"), for example.
Or "Tu lyubish pivo, pravda?" ("You like beer, right?")

Sorry...Languages interest me.

Is it true that the only difference between Serbian and Croatian is that one uses the Cyrillic alphabet, the other Latin? I've heard that other than that, the languages are identical in vocabulary, grammar, etc.

Sanamas · 7th July 2005, 10:00 PM

Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group.

El_Spectre · 8th July 2005, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sanamas
Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group.

Yeah, everytime I hear something from the Organization of Families And Children And Decency And Puppies And Kitties<sup>*</sup> Ad Inifinitum, I wonder what is so great about their issue (which is nearly always about censoring something or condemning someone).

I'm not a religious man, but I don't recall Jesus (these tend to be christian folks) talking about "love thy brother, unless he's gay".

<sup>*</sup> Adults who use the word 'kitties' in conversation (see the PETA BS show) lose credibility in my book.

Cleon · 8th July 2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sanamas
Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group.

I'll be sure to let the various social services groups called Jewish Family & Children Services know that.

Yahweh · 8th July 2005, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sanamas
Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group.

There is also the new phenomena where every group tries to disguise its political agenda behind an inconspicuous title, so that you dont really know what these groups are until its too late.

A few examples:
* American Family Association: an organization which takes its authority from the bible to defend "traditional values" (which is a Newspeak term to cover the whole gamut of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birthcontrol, anti-pornography, and other sex-related "morality").

* Alliance Defense Fund: defends theocracy, and defends the idea that Christianity (more specifically, a narrow interpretation of evangelical Christianity) should be singled out by law for special treatment.

* Empower America: another conservative interests organization.

* People for the American Way: an organization that fights to defend the basic rights, freedoms, and constitutional framework that is being threatened by the radical right.

* Free Congress Foundation: this organzation describes itself as "a non-partisan, nonprofit institute dedicated to conservative governance, traditional values and institutional reform". (Thats right, its claims to be "non-partisan" and "dedicated to conservative governance" simultaneously...)

* Committe to Restore the Constitution: nothing gets the political agenda across better than this organizations official logo,

All of the above mentioned organizations try to pull a fast one on you, by choosing deliberately vague names for their organizations to obscure whatever political agenda so outsiders wont dismiss them without taking a look at their homepage first.

One of the reasons I like the NAACP (the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) is because it is unambiguous in both its terminology and its interests.

AmateurScientist · 9th July 2005, 09:29 AM

Great topic, Yahweh. I agree with you. It is newspeak.

You did a great job with your examples, too.

My biggest pet peeve in this regard is appending "for children" to otherwise completely unrelated legislation so that one's opponents cannot vote against it without losing political capital.

AS

DavoMan · 11th July 2005, 10:06 AM

This 'new speak' thing really works aye. I mean that it's really effective in tricking the public into not realising what the true agenda is. We got a traditional values christian thing in New Zealand.

They're called the 'destiny church' and they've just gotten themselves into parlament. Yep, they're anti gay and even managed to convince so many people to be anti gay (NZ just allowed gays to get a civil union) that they had a TV debate about it.

Damn christianity and it's big status in society.

5th July 2005, 08:56 PM	#1
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030	Organizations With "Truth" In The Name Nothing makes me more skeptical when I come across an organization or a group who use the word "Truth" in their name. Its almost used in an Orwellian "Ministry of Truth" way. Here are just a few examples: TrueOrigins: "Much of the material published by evolutionists embodies precisely such a pseudo-scientific bias, often articulated under the pretense that it is the product only of purely objective and unprejudiced study." TheTruth.com: An website dedicated to exposing "Big Tobacco", the website might have good intentions but I get the feeling that everything they feature on their website is garbage from a skeptical point of view. Swiftboat Veterans for Truth: a partisan group who tried to demolish the credibility of '04 Democratic candidate John Kerry. Operation Truth: it is intended to give you the "the real news" behind the Iraqi war. TheTruthSeeker.co.uk: "Behind the headlines - conspiracies, cover-ups, ancient mysteries and more. Real news and perspectives that you won't find in the mainstream media." Among other things, one of the outrageous stories I came across was one claiming the US is murdering its own journalists in Iraq. Bowling for Truth: A catalogue of "Michael Moore's Lies". 9/11 Truth: "911Truth.Org is a campaign to educate the public about the Sept. 11th coverup and inspire popular pressure to overturn the "incompetence theory" and expose the truth surrounding the events of 9/11; namely, that elements within the U.S. government must have been complicit, or worse, for the attacks to happen the way they did." The Truth about George Bush: "The Truth About George has diligently documented the misdeeds of Bush and his cronies since 2002, revealing the cold hard facts about an administration bent on rewarding big corporations and the rich, turning back the clock on women's rights and civil rights, and promoting a U.S. empire abroad." Almost all of these websites with a "truth" perspective have a political spin, I cant afford to keep buying new irony meters
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030

5th July 2005, 10:29 PM	#2
Phrost The Fighting Skeptic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Cowtown, Missouri Posts: 1,429	Not getting into philosophy here, but there's a reason why "Truth" is used instead of "Facts". Truth is subjective.
	__________________ "I never intend for my posts to read like I'm aggressive or confrontational, but I am so they do." Executive Director: Bullshido.net Fighting BS in the Martial Arts Amateur No-Holds-Barred/MMA Fighter, Skeptic, Bright. www.Phrost.com

6th July 2005, 02:24 AM	#3
DavoMan Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 424	Except for 'objective truth'. :P
	__________________ Like whatEVER! Jesus is like SOOOO last century!

6th July 2005, 07:25 AM	#4
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	Not only political spin, seems like a religious thing, too: Divine Truth Christian Store Points Of Truth Grace and Truth Truth Christian Scripture Truth Source Of Truth Oh, a mix of both: Conservative Truth ("The Antidote to the Liberal News Media")
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	__________________ For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. D. Adams -- THHGTTG You're a sick man. The Atheist

6th July 2005, 09:22 AM	#6
delphi_ote needs a drink. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,924	I think it comes with the territory. Political and religious groups exist because they create stability and order in a community. To maintain that order, it is necessary to sustain the illusion that the organization itself provides absolute truth, or was born of absolute truth. Those within the group exist to sustain and propagate this "truth." To question it at all endangers the social structure and the pleasant delusion of knowing "right" and "wrong" as absolutely and simply as "black" and "white." Those outside the group are somehow "less." Those within are assumed to be good and what they say is always within the context of the absolute truth. Outsiders might try to trick you. Insiders can be trusted. I've always called it "chosen person syndrome." It's an old meme that was sucessful a long time ago, but it's out-lived its time. We've outgrown it. We see now that humanity is one large group that we all belong to, and science and reason provide universal facts for all independent of circumstance. No matter how many times they put "truth" in the title of their organizations, we can prove when they're lying.
	__________________ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6th July 2005, 07:57 AM	#5
DuckTapeFileMan Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 208	It just shows that these organisations have[edit typo]no sense of irony.

6th July 2005, 10:01 AM	#7
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030	Re: Organizations With "Truth" In The Name Quote: Originally posted by delphi_ote No matter how many times they put "truth" in the title of their organizations, we can prove when they're lying. I'm really interested to see what "truth" is in this organization: Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh TheTruth.com: An website dedicated to exposing "Big Tobacco" I notice all of the facts on that website are notoriously undocumented and unreferenced, and I wouldnt be surprised if the site were really bending some truths. But, I havent come across anything that examines the website's claims.
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030

6th July 2005, 10:13 AM	#8
phildonnia Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sac'to CA Posts: 1,994	Kinda like countries with "democratic" in the name.

6th July 2005, 11:09 AM	#9
Peter Morris Muse Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 939	Books too. We Live Forever: The Real Truth About Death The Truth About Sex : What the World Won't Tell You and God Wants You to Know Day of Deceit : The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor The Seven Myths of Gun Control : Reclaiming the Truth About Guns, Crime, and the Second Amendment The Truth About God: The Ten Commandments in Christian Life The Truth About Witchcraft To Die For : The Dangerous Truth About Following Christ TRUTH ABOUT GHOSTS, SPIRITS, HAUNTINGS AND REUNIONS OF LOVED ONES I'm always wary of "truth about" books, especially on paranormal subjects. Anyone who makes a point of telling you that he's honest, probably isn't.
Peter Morris Muse Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 939

6th July 2005, 11:35 AM	#10
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	Quote: Originally posted by delphi_ote I think it comes with the territory. Political and religious groups exist because they create stability and order in a community. To maintain that order, it is necessary to sustain the illusion that the organization itself provides absolute truth, or was born of absolute truth. snip Hm, why am I thinking of 1984 now...
wahrheit Pac-Man Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5,589	__________________ For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen. D. Adams -- THHGTTG You're a sick man. The Atheist

6th July 2005, 01:01 PM	#11
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 6,181	To know something as it really is has an exceptional value like diamonds. Perhaps it is no wonder that when people only have glass to offer, they try promote it as the real thing. Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence.

6th July 2005, 01:17 PM	#12
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,723	Quote: Originally posted by Kopji Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence. Except for the Debeers marketing campaign.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 6,723	__________________ My Webstore of Telescopes, Science Fun, and More: Spectrum Scientifics! Spectrum Scientifics Store Blog!

6th July 2005, 01:23 PM	#13
LibraryLady Hunter of the SnarK Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople Posts: 9,201	No one has mentioned Pravda?
	__________________ SHARE for Haiti Post your good news here! "I shall sit here," he said, "on and off, for days and days."

6th July 2005, 01:31 PM	#14
delphi_ote needs a drink. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,924	Quote: Originally posted by Kopji Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence. Well put. That's why when I see a politician or preacher dodging evidence with a reply of "it's unpatriotic to question" or "don't question God's will," I always wish someone would ask, "If you're right, the evidence will bear that out no matter how much we question. If what you claim is true, every bit of investigation will prove that over and over. Why are you so angry about our asking questions? Are you afraid you might be wrong?"
	__________________ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6th July 2005, 04:58 PM	#15
DavoMan Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 424	Quote: Originally posted by Peter Morris Books too. We Live Forever: The Real Truth About Death The Truth About Sex : What the World Won't Tell You and God Wants You to Know Day of Deceit : The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor The Seven Myths of Gun Control : Reclaiming the Truth About Guns, Crime, and the Second Amendment The Truth About God: The Ten Commandments in Christian Life The Truth About Witchcraft To Die For : The Dangerous Truth About Following Christ TRUTH ABOUT GHOSTS, SPIRITS, HAUNTINGS AND REUNIONS OF LOVED ONES I'm always wary of "truth about" books, especially on paranormal subjects. Anyone who makes a point of telling you that he's honest, probably isn't. What about the truth about Uri Geller :P
	__________________ Like whatEVER! Jesus is like SOOOO last century!

6th July 2005, 06:24 PM	#16
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,085	Quote: Originally posted by Kopji To know something as it really is has an exceptional value like diamonds. Perhaps it is no wonder that when people only have glass to offer, they try promote it as the real thing. Real diamonds however, do not need to make any claims at all. They can be seen what they are by the evidence. The problem is that gem quality diamonds are worthless except as decoration
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

7th July 2005, 01:46 AM	#17
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 6,181	Quote: Originally posted by El_Spectre The problem is that gem quality diamonds are worthless except as decoration I know of at least a couple gem quality diamonds that were made into lens for spacecraft. Here's a funny story about one of them: Quote: ...There is a large diamond on Venus. This diamond helped to prove that Murphy's Law works on other planets besides Earth. The Soviets used the diamond as a front glass to protect the lens of the camera on their spacecraft. Venera 13 and Venera 14 sent back colour photographs of the surface of Venus. On the way down through the atmosphere, the lens cap was left on the camera to protect the lens from the clouds of sulphuric acid. But once the spacecraft had landed, the lens cap was thrown off, exposing the diamond front glass. Diamond is the hardest substance known in the Universe to the human race, and the Soviets thought that it would not be affected by the terrible atmosphere. Each spacecraft also had an experiment called the "Dynamic Penetrometer". The Penetrometer was a spring-loaded arm with a point on the end of it. The point would penetrate deep into soft ground, but not so deep into hard ground. The photographs from Venera 13 show the penetrometer point embedded in the soil, and the lens cap off to one side. But the photographs from Venera 14 show that the point of the penetrometer landed exactly on the lens cap. This is proof that Murphy's Law is a universal law. The diamond is still waiting on the surface of Venus. If you want to get it, all you need is the space fare. o So there ya go, a useful gem quality diamond. And DeBeers is easily dispatched with $15,000 diamonds made for only $100 each. "They are too perfect". o Hey, I may use colorful or poetic metaphors, but I defend them!

7th July 2005, 08:21 AM	#18
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,085	Quote: Originally posted by Kopji So there ya go, a useful gem quality diamond. Hey, that's cool... I didn't know about that, thanks!
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

7th July 2005, 09:03 AM	#19
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,699	Quote: Originally posted by LibraryLady No one has mentioned Pravda? Pravda means justice, not truth.
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,699

7th July 2005, 09:14 AM	#20
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 14,362	Quote: Originally posted by Tanja Pravda means justice, not truth. No, "pravda" does mean "(the) truth." It's used the same way "verdad" is in Spanish. The Russian word for justice is "spravedlivost"--they're related, but not the same.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky My blog

7th July 2005, 09:18 AM	#21
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,699	Oops, sorry. My mother tongue is Croatian, which is reasonably similar to Russian - and in Croatian, "pravda" means justice. "Istina" means truth. I therefore assumed it would have the same meaning in Russian.
Tanja Comfortably Numb Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,699

7th July 2005, 09:38 AM	#22
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 14,362	Quote: Originally posted by Tanja Oops, sorry. My mother tongue is Croatian, which is reasonably similar to Russian - and in Croatian, "pravda" means justice. "Istina" means truth. I therefore assumed it would have the same meaning in Russian. Interesting...Russian also has the word "istina," which also means truth. I'm not sure exactly what the conceptual difference is between "pravda" and "istina," if there is one. Like I said, "pravda" is used like "verdad" in Spanish--it's used a lot as a factual truth. "Eta pravda" ("this is true"), for example. Or "Tu lyubish pivo, pravda?" ("You like beer, right?") Sorry...Languages interest me. Is it true that the only difference between Serbian and Croatian is that one uses the Cyrillic alphabet, the other Latin? I've heard that other than that, the languages are identical in vocabulary, grammar, etc.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky My blog

7th July 2005, 10:00 PM	#23
Sanamas Thinker Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 173	Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group.
Sanamas Thinker Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 173

8th July 2005, 01:46 AM	#24
El_Spectre Lizard Scum Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arizona Bay Posts: 1,085	Quote: Originally posted by Sanamas Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group. Yeah, everytime I hear something from the Organization of Families And Children And Decency And Puppies And Kitties<sup></sup> Ad Inifinitum, I wonder what is so great about their issue (which is nearly always about censoring something or condemning someone). I'm not a religious man, but I don't recall Jesus (these tend to be christian folks) talking about "love thy brother, unless he's gay". <sup></sup> Adults who use the word 'kitties' in conversation (see the PETA BS show) lose credibility in my book.
	__________________ Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. - Ambrose Bierce Question your argument if you must mock your opponent to make it... Step 1 in helping spread the skeptical way of thinking: Don't be a jerk.

8th July 2005, 06:08 AM	#25
Cleon King of the Pod People Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 14,362	Quote: Originally posted by Sanamas Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group. I'll be sure to let the various social services groups called Jewish Family & Children Services know that.
	__________________ "Intolerance does not flourish without ignorance to feed it." - kittynh "A jerk who is right is still a jerk." - Ducky My blog

8th July 2005, 07:52 AM	#26
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030	Quote: Originally posted by Sanamas Speaking of which, any organization with the word "Family" in it is a right wing fundamentalist group. There is also the new phenomena where every group tries to disguise its political agenda behind an inconspicuous title, so that you dont really know what these groups are until its too late. A few examples: * American Family Association: an organization which takes its authority from the bible to defend "traditional values" (which is a Newspeak term to cover the whole gamut of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birthcontrol, anti-pornography, and other sex-related "morality"). * Alliance Defense Fund: defends theocracy, and defends the idea that Christianity (more specifically, a narrow interpretation of evangelical Christianity) should be singled out by law for special treatment. * Empower America: another conservative interests organization. * People for the American Way: an organization that fights to defend the basic rights, freedoms, and constitutional framework that is being threatened by the radical right. * Free Congress Foundation: this organzation describes itself as "a non-partisan, nonprofit institute dedicated to conservative governance, traditional values and institutional reform". (Thats right, its claims to be "non-partisan" and "dedicated to conservative governance" simultaneously...) * Committe to Restore the Constitution: nothing gets the political agenda across better than this organizations official logo, All of the above mentioned organizations try to pull a fast one on you, by choosing deliberately vague names for their organizations to obscure whatever political agenda so outsiders wont dismiss them without taking a look at their homepage first. One of the reasons I like the NAACP (the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) is because it is unambiguous in both its terminology and its interests.
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,030

9th July 2005, 09:29 AM	#27
AmateurScientist JREF Kid Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,319	Great topic, Yahweh. I agree with you. It is newspeak. You did a great job with your examples, too. My biggest pet peeve in this regard is appending "for children" to otherwise completely unrelated legislation so that one's opponents cannot vote against it without losing political capital. AS

11th July 2005, 10:06 AM	#28
DavoMan Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 424	This 'new speak' thing really works aye. I mean that it's really effective in tricking the public into not realising what the true agenda is. We got a traditional values christian thing in New Zealand. They're called the 'destiny church' and they've just gotten themselves into parlament. Yep, they're anti gay and even managed to convince so many people to be anti gay (NZ just allowed gays to get a civil union) that they had a TV debate about it. Damn christianity and it's big status in society.
	__________________ Like whatEVER! Jesus is like SOOOO last century!