Source of Life Energy

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 06:23 AM

Here's another curious question I've had for a while now and it may have a very solid scientific explanation.

Where does the animal body get it's power from? I imagine it is from nutrition. However, I also understand a human being can go for 60+ days without eating and 3-5 days without drinking.

I guess the mystics would explain this in terms of prana, life energy, the source, the spirit. However, these become circular when you ask where those get their power from. Another problem I have with the spirit think is that it separates from the body at times (like in dreams) to Fantasy Land. This would mean the body is disconnected from its source of power and would have no reason to function anymore. Yet, during sleep, this is not the case as vital organs continue to function.

I remember someone asking another question that seems related to this in the past. I think the question was "if you had a mental reboot switch, would you use it." I guess one way to reboot the human body would be to separate it from its source of power.

Any thoughts or ideas?

And may The Force be with you...

MRC_Hans · 13th July 2005, 06:36 AM

Uhh, what do you think is the purpose of eating? We get energy from our food, in the form of various combustible substances, mainly carbohydrates and lipids (fats).

The combustible stuff is stored in various ways in our body, in fat depots and other places. So when we have not recently eaten, we draw on these stores. Depending on your initial condition and the amount of energy you are needing in the given situation your stores will hold out for quite some time, although 60 days without eating (at all) is long. Most will not be able to make that. Also in situations where your energy requirments are high, you will last considerably shorter.

The energy exchange of the body is well explored, and we putput, over time, exactly what we input. No need to call on some mysterious force here.

There is, in fact no need to resort to a spirit to explain any function of our bodies, including dreams. Although some will try to contradict this, they are all well encompassed in a materialistic model.

Hans

Donks · 13th July 2005, 06:43 AM

May I ask why you don't start your scientific queries on the Science board? There are people over there, such as Rolfe, Badly Shaved Monkey and ThirdTwin that are quite qualified to answer you, and I don't think they venture into Religion & Philosophy very often. Although you did get the omnipresent MRC_Hans to answer you

MRC_Hans · 13th July 2005, 06:47 AM

Because I rarely browse individual forums. Instead I use the "view new posts" function.

.

Hans

Yahweh · 13th July 2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
I remember someone asking another question that seems related to this in the past. I think the question was "if you had a mental reboot switch, would you use it." I guess one way to reboot the human body would be to separate it from its source of power.

Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot?

hammegk · 13th July 2005, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot?

Not so far as *I* can tell .... How about you?

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot?

Yes it is. I am thinking more of a complete reboot, like a computer, not just a mental one. Could we cause all bodily functions to stop? Even during dreamless sleep, this is not possible as the body is breathing and the heart is pumping blood. At least that is what I am told happens in that case.

So it appears that the body as a computer is always in perpetual motion, unlike any other machines we know. Well, maybe the computer is close to it since it maintains a bios chip with a battery. But even this can be disconnected. Is it possible to disconnect the human BIOS chip?

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk
Not so far as *I* can tell .... How about you?

You are correct it is not a reboot since the memory remains intact. Sleeping at night is more like a standby function.

Dappadee · 13th July 2005, 09:06 AM

As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well.

roger · 13th July 2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
Yes it is. I am thinking more of a complete reboot, like a computer, not just a mental one. Could we cause all bodily functions to stop? Even during dreamless sleep, this is not possible as the body is breathing and the heart is pumping blood. At least that is what I am told happens in that case.

So it appears that the body as a computer is always in perpetual motion, unlike any other machines we know. Well, maybe the computer is close to it since it maintains a bios chip with a battery. But even this can be disconnected. Is it possible to disconnect the human BIOS chip?

1) Are you seriously stating that you don't know if people breathe during sleep?

2) Humans don't have BIOS chips.

Mojo · 13th July 2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
Could we cause all bodily functions to stop?

Certainly. Everybody does this eventually.

But only once.

Donks · 13th July 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dappadee
As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well.

I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc.

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Uhh, what do you think is the purpose of eating? We get energy from our food, in the form of various combustible substances, mainly carbohydrates and lipids (fats).

The combustible stuff is stored in various ways in our body, in fat depots and other places. So when we have not recently eaten, we draw on these stores. Depending on your initial condition and the amount of energy you are needing in the given situation your stores will hold out for quite some time, although 60 days without eating (at all) is long. Most will not be able to make that. Also in situations where your energy requirments are high, you will last considerably shorter.

The energy exchange of the body is well explored, and we putput, over time, exactly what we input. No need to call on some mysterious force here.

There is, in fact no need to resort to a spirit to explain any function of our bodies, including dreams. Although some will try to contradict this, they are all well encompassed in a materialistic model.

Hans

I am not disputing that it is from nutrition that we get our energy. I'm just wondering if there is a button or series of switches in the body that correspond to the energy burning, storage and consumption machinery.

Yes 60+ days refer to very extreme cases. Professional meditators are known for this kind of stuff. I remember hearing that some individuals in Ireland did this for that long. Also remember the 40 days by Moses in the woods. Some Judeo-Christians actually try to fast for this long. So going from there to 60 is not that far.

By the way I used be a runner and I ran as much as 13 miles at once and maybe more. I recall reading in my running magazine that an ice cream is more than enough energy to run a marathon.

Also, you are correct about the spirit comment. There is no need for such a thing.

Dappadee · 13th July 2005, 09:21 AM

Quote:

I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc.

All very true. I can't say I have ever thought about a human-computer analogy before, I was just playing advocate.

Psiload · 13th July 2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh
Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot?

I'd say it's more like a defrag.

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by roger
1) Are you seriously stating that you don't know if people breathe during sleep?

I infer that others do because I can see their bellies moving while they sleep or I can sense air if I put my hand on their nostrils. So this makes me conclude that I may be operating the same way. This is what I meant by that.

Quote:

2) Humans don't have BIOS chips.

My impression is that the human body does not need such a chip since it is never actually turned off. So it may not even have an off switch. So as a machine, the body is quite an impressive one. So maybe we could build a computer that went around looking for a source of energy to maintain its own energy level instead of using this BIOS chip idea. It may make it a better machine.

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dappadee
As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well.

You've brought up a good point about the hard drive. Is there a hard drive in the human body somewhere? Where even if there was a reboot, the memory could be retained. Also, it would be possible to remove the human drive from one individual and install it on another.

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donks
I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc.

You are absolutely right. Yet the functioning of living organisms remains a topic of philosophical discussions and debates. Questions like do we have a spirit, is there consciousness, are we material or spiritual in nature, tata, tata, tata ... remain? So could it simply be that threads like this don't really want an answer to certain simple questions?

Do you see how this is indeed a philosophical question? Not all philosophical questions follow a strict rule of logic as we would like.

Also, I do appreciate your efforts to bring us back to the real world.

Underemployed · 13th July 2005, 12:33 PM

Here is my source of life energy!

(Sadly can't get it in the UK, bah)

drkitten · 13th July 2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
I am not disputing that it is from nutrition that we get our energy. I'm just wondering if there is a button or series of switches in the body that correspond to the energy burning, storage and consumption machinery.

What the heck does this mean? "A button or series of switches?" Switches aren't processes, they're controllers of processes.

The human metabolism is well understood, and you can get it from any decent biology textbook. (Or you can look for the relevant terms, like "glycolysis" and "Krebs cycle," on the Web). And there are certainly control mechanisms that the human body uses. As a runner, you were probably familiar with the phenomenon of "hitting the wall." There are two basic metabolic pathways, the so-called anaerobic and aerobic pathways, that "burn" different chemicals, using different enzymes. You "hit the wall" when your body runs out of glycogen, the chemical that fuels anaerobic respiration, at which point that particular process more or less shuts down.

And, yes, there are ways to adjust (within broad limits) how your body burns fuel. For example, "aerobic training" will increase the efficiency of your aerobic metabolism. But there's no way to shut it down entirely, and for good reason. Cells that don't metabolize are called "dead"....

FreeChile · 13th July 2005, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by new drkitten
What the heck does this mean? "A button or series of switches?" Switches aren't processes, they're controllers of processes.

I have not said that switches are processes. Switches are used to control the flow through a circuit by disconnecting or reconnecting the circuit. They may be thought of as controlling processes in certain cases but not always. I am simply following the machine analogy we began with for the human body.

Quote:

The human metabolism is well understood, and you can get it from any decent biology textbook.

So if the body is so well understood, then I donâ€™t see why what I suggest is so preposterous. Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises? So instead of having a mid-life crisis and becoming mad as some humans do, I would prefer to go through the process of getting shut down and restarted only with certain features. I would like to come out having the vitality of a child and the memories of an adult (without attachment of course). I donâ€™t see how this is drastically different from the genome project, genetic engineering, or many other scientific or medical endeavors. There are many drugs that already work like switches (e.g. Paxil, etc.).

Quote:

(Or you can look for the relevant terms, like "glycolysis" and "Krebs cycle," on the Web). And there are certainly control mechanisms that the human body uses. As a runner, you were probably familiar with the phenomenon of "hitting the wall." There are two basic metabolic pathways, the so-called anaerobic and aerobic pathways, that "burn" different chemicals, using different enzymes. You "hit the wall" when your body runs out of glycogen, the chemical that fuels anaerobic respiration, at which point that particular process more or less shuts down.

And, yes, there are ways to adjust (within broad limits) how your body burns fuel. For example, "aerobic training" will increase the efficiency of your aerobic metabolism. But there's no way to shut it down entirely, and for good reason. Cells that don't metabolize are called "dead"....

Yes, I am familiar with the wall although not personally. However, even after hitting the wall, the body eventually recovers and the runner gets a second wind.

Mojo · 14th July 2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
So if the body is so well understood, then I donâ€™t see why what I suggest is so preposterous. Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises? So instead of having a mid-life crisis and becoming mad as some humans do, I would prefer to go through the process of getting shut down and restarted only with certain features.

It is precisely because it is understood how the body works that we know that what you're suggesting here is not possible.

Gestahl · 14th July 2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises?

We do. Your body does not digest when there is no food in the stomach. The development of the human body in the womb is a fantastically complex example of selective chemical processes happening in response to hormones.

For the person asking why computer/human comparisons are so rampant, I would guess it is because computers are the most complex thing we understand fully, and, in essence, is a general purpose construct (like us), thus useful for comparison to lots of other very complex things.

Lastly, if you want to know the real source of life's energy, it's the same energy source that makes crystals form, and all chemical processes happen. In general, because it is the most efficient and stable way for things to be (locally, that is). Why *that* happens (i.e. tendency towards the most efficient and stable local configuration) is some heavy thermodynamics, and I do not feel qualified to answer that. Perhaps MRC_Hans could fill that in?

As an aside, the universal currency of energy exchange in almost all organisms is ATP. This is how most "life energy" is stored and transfered in the body (the chemical energy in fats, sugars, and even proteins, in a pinch, are all converted to chemical energy stored in ATP via adding a phosphate group to ADP before the energy is actually used for anything).

epepke · 14th July 2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeChile
Here's another curious question I've had for a while now and it may have a very solid scientific explanation.

Where does the animal body get it's power from? I imagine it is from nutrition. However, I also understand a human being can go for 60+ days without eating and 3-5 days without drinking.

I guess the mystics would explain this in terms of prana, life energy, the source, the spirit.

So, I guess another word for "prana" is "fat."

FreeChile · 15th July 2005, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epepke
So, I guess another word for "prana" is "fat."

Actually, no. The brain really likes sugar, not fat. Fat is eventually converted to glucose.

13th July 2005, 06:23 AM	#1
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Source of Life Energy Here's another curious question I've had for a while now and it may have a very solid scientific explanation. Where does the animal body get it's power from? I imagine it is from nutrition. However, I also understand a human being can go for 60+ days without eating and 3-5 days without drinking. I guess the mystics would explain this in terms of prana, life energy, the source, the spirit. However, these become circular when you ask where those get their power from. Another problem I have with the spirit think is that it separates from the body at times (like in dreams) to Fantasy Land. This would mean the body is disconnected from its source of power and would have no reason to function anymore. Yet, during sleep, this is not the case as vital organs continue to function. I remember someone asking another question that seems related to this in the past. I think the question was "if you had a mental reboot switch, would you use it." I guess one way to reboot the human body would be to separate it from its source of power. Any thoughts or ideas? And may The Force be with you...

13th July 2005, 06:36 AM	#2
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	Uhh, what do you think is the purpose of eating? We get energy from our food, in the form of various combustible substances, mainly carbohydrates and lipids (fats). The combustible stuff is stored in various ways in our body, in fat depots and other places. So when we have not recently eaten, we draw on these stores. Depending on your initial condition and the amount of energy you are needing in the given situation your stores will hold out for quite some time, although 60 days without eating (at all) is long. Most will not be able to make that. Also in situations where your energy requirments are high, you will last considerably shorter. The energy exchange of the body is well explored, and we putput, over time, exactly what we input. No need to call on some mysterious force here. There is, in fact no need to resort to a spirit to explain any function of our bodies, including dreams. Although some will try to contradict this, they are all well encompassed in a materialistic model. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

13th July 2005, 06:43 AM	#3
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	May I ask why you don't start your scientific queries on the Science board? There are people over there, such as Rolfe, Badly Shaved Monkey and ThirdTwin that are quite qualified to answer you, and I don't think they venture into Religion & Philosophy very often. Although you did get the omnipresent MRC_Hans to answer you
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

13th July 2005, 06:47 AM	#4
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	Because I rarely browse individual forums. Instead I use the "view new posts" function. . Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

13th July 2005, 06:51 AM	#5
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile I remember someone asking another question that seems related to this in the past. I think the question was "if you had a mental reboot switch, would you use it." I guess one way to reboot the human body would be to separate it from its source of power. Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot?
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

13th July 2005, 07:07 AM	#6
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot? Not so far as I can tell .... How about you?
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

13th July 2005, 08:53 AM	#7
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot? Yes it is. I am thinking more of a complete reboot, like a computer, not just a mental one. Could we cause all bodily functions to stop? Even during dreamless sleep, this is not possible as the body is breathing and the heart is pumping blood. At least that is what I am told happens in that case. So it appears that the body as a computer is always in perpetual motion, unlike any other machines we know. Well, maybe the computer is close to it since it maintains a bios chip with a battery. But even this can be disconnected. Is it possible to disconnect the human BIOS chip?

13th July 2005, 08:58 AM	#8
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Re: Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by hammegk *Not so far as I* can tell .... How about you?** You are correct it is not a reboot since the memory remains intact. Sleeping at night is more like a standby function.

13th July 2005, 09:06 AM	#9
Dappadee New Blood Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16	As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well.
Dappadee New Blood Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16	__________________ Congressman: There is no just cause for an invasion of Iraq. Peter Griffin: Well that may be, but what we are all forgetting is anyone that doesn't want to go to war is gay.

13th July 2005, 09:06 AM	#10
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Re: Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile Yes it is. I am thinking more of a complete reboot, like a computer, not just a mental one. Could we cause all bodily functions to stop? Even during dreamless sleep, this is not possible as the body is breathing and the heart is pumping blood. At least that is what I am told happens in that case. So it appears that the body as a computer is always in perpetual motion, unlike any other machines we know. Well, maybe the computer is close to it since it maintains a bios chip with a battery. But even this can be disconnected. Is it possible to disconnect the human BIOS chip? 1) Are you seriously stating that you don't know if people breathe during sleep? 2) Humans don't have BIOS chips.

13th July 2005, 09:08 AM	#11
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,079	Re: Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile Could we cause all bodily functions to stop? Certainly. Everybody does this eventually. But only once.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

13th July 2005, 09:14 AM	#12
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Quote: Originally posted by Dappadee As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well. I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc.
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

13th July 2005, 09:20 AM	#13
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Uhh, what do you think is the purpose of eating? We get energy from our food, in the form of various combustible substances, mainly carbohydrates and lipids (fats). The combustible stuff is stored in various ways in our body, in fat depots and other places. So when we have not recently eaten, we draw on these stores. Depending on your initial condition and the amount of energy you are needing in the given situation your stores will hold out for quite some time, although 60 days without eating (at all) is long. Most will not be able to make that. Also in situations where your energy requirments are high, you will last considerably shorter. The energy exchange of the body is well explored, and we putput, over time, exactly what we input. No need to call on some mysterious force here. There is, in fact no need to resort to a spirit to explain any function of our bodies, including dreams. Although some will try to contradict this, they are all well encompassed in a materialistic model. Hans I am not disputing that it is from nutrition that we get our energy. I'm just wondering if there is a button or series of switches in the body that correspond to the energy burning, storage and consumption machinery. Yes 60+ days refer to very extreme cases. Professional meditators are known for this kind of stuff. I remember hearing that some individuals in Ireland did this for that long. Also remember the 40 days by Moses in the woods. Some Judeo-Christians actually try to fast for this long. So going from there to 60 is not that far. By the way I used be a runner and I ran as much as 13 miles at once and maybe more. I recall reading in my running magazine that an ice cream is more than enough energy to run a marathon. Also, you are correct about the spirit comment. There is no need for such a thing.

13th July 2005, 09:21 AM	#14
Dappadee New Blood Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16	Quote: I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc. All very true. I can't say I have ever thought about a human-computer analogy before, I was just playing advocate.
Dappadee New Blood Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16	__________________ Congressman: There is no just cause for an invasion of Iraq. Peter Griffin: Well that may be, but what we are all forgetting is anyone that doesn't want to go to war is gay.

13th July 2005, 09:28 AM	#15
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,105	Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Isnt going to bed every night a mental reboot? I'd say it's more like a defrag.
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,105	__________________ You're not the boss of me.

13th July 2005, 09:30 AM	#16
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Re: Re: Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by roger 1) Are you seriously stating that you don't know if people breathe during sleep? I infer that others do because I can see their bellies moving while they sleep or I can sense air if I put my hand on their nostrils. So this makes me conclude that I may be operating the same way. This is what I meant by that. Quote: 2) Humans don't have BIOS chips. My impression is that the human body does not need such a chip since it is never actually turned off. So it may not even have an off switch. So as a machine, the body is quite an impressive one. So maybe we could build a computer that went around looking for a source of energy to maintain its own energy level instead of using this BIOS chip idea. It may make it a better machine.

13th July 2005, 09:35 AM	#17
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Quote: Originally posted by Dappadee As far as the computer analogy is concerned, not all memory is wipe in a reboot. Only the RAM is wiped not the ROM, and you could probably argue that the data on a hard drive could count as well. You've brought up a good point about the hard drive. Is there a hard drive in the human body somewhere? Where even if there was a reboot, the memory could be retained. Also, it would be possible to remove the human drive from one individual and install it on another.

13th July 2005, 09:59 AM	#18
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Quote: Originally posted by Donks I don't see why so much time is being spent on the human-computer analogy. Yes, by saying that memory is ROM or HD, sleep is now comparable to a reboot. But then the analogy fails somewhere else, namely that the ROM and HD sirvive even if there is no power, no "life energy" to come back to the topic of the thread. Analogies eventually fail, I don't see why this one is being explored when there are physicians on the board who could explain how the human body gains nutrients, transports, stores, and converts energy, etc. You are absolutely right. Yet the functioning of living organisms remains a topic of philosophical discussions and debates. Questions like do we have a spirit, is there consciousness, are we material or spiritual in nature, tata, tata, tata ... remain? So could it simply be that threads like this don't really want an answer to certain simple questions? Do you see how this is indeed a philosophical question? Not all philosophical questions follow a strict rule of logic as we would like. Also, I do appreciate your efforts to bring us back to the real world.

13th July 2005, 12:33 PM	#19
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	Here is my source of life energy! (Sadly can't get it in the UK, bah)
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	__________________ There is no punchy, conclusive final sentence for this post.

13th July 2005, 12:58 PM	#20
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile I am not disputing that it is from nutrition that we get our energy. I'm just wondering if there is a button or series of switches in the body that correspond to the energy burning, storage and consumption machinery. What the heck does this mean? "A button or series of switches?" Switches aren't processes, they're controllers of processes. The human metabolism is well understood, and you can get it from any decent biology textbook. (Or you can look for the relevant terms, like "glycolysis" and "Krebs cycle," on the Web). And there are certainly control mechanisms that the human body uses. As a runner, you were probably familiar with the phenomenon of "hitting the wall." There are two basic metabolic pathways, the so-called anaerobic and aerobic pathways, that "burn" different chemicals, using different enzymes. You "hit the wall" when your body runs out of glycogen, the chemical that fuels anaerobic respiration, at which point that particular process more or less shuts down. And, yes, there are ways to adjust (within broad limits) how your body burns fuel. For example, "aerobic training" will increase the efficiency of your aerobic metabolism. But there's no way to shut it down entirely, and for good reason. Cells that don't metabolize are called "dead"....

13th July 2005, 03:40 PM	#21
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Quote: Originally posted by new drkitten What the heck does this mean? "A button or series of switches?" Switches aren't processes, they're controllers of processes. I have not said that switches are processes. Switches are used to control the flow through a circuit by disconnecting or reconnecting the circuit. They may be thought of as controlling processes in certain cases but not always. I am simply following the machine analogy we began with for the human body. Quote: The human metabolism is well understood, and you can get it from any decent biology textbook. So if the body is so well understood, then I donâ€™t see why what I suggest is so preposterous. Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises? So instead of having a mid-life crisis and becoming mad as some humans do, I would prefer to go through the process of getting shut down and restarted only with certain features. I would like to come out having the vitality of a child and the memories of an adult (without attachment of course). I donâ€™t see how this is drastically different from the genome project, genetic engineering, or many other scientific or medical endeavors. There are many drugs that already work like switches (e.g. Paxil, etc.). Quote: (Or you can look for the relevant terms, like "glycolysis" and "Krebs cycle," on the Web). And there are certainly control mechanisms that the human body uses. As a runner, you were probably familiar with the phenomenon of "hitting the wall." There are two basic metabolic pathways, the so-called anaerobic and aerobic pathways, that "burn" different chemicals, using different enzymes. You "hit the wall" when your body runs out of glycogen, the chemical that fuels anaerobic respiration, at which point that particular process more or less shuts down. And, yes, there are ways to adjust (within broad limits) how your body burns fuel. For example, "aerobic training" will increase the efficiency of your aerobic metabolism. But there's no way to shut it down entirely, and for good reason. Cells that don't metabolize are called "dead".... Yes, I am familiar with the wall although not personally. However, even after hitting the wall, the body eventually recovers and the runner gets a second wind.

14th July 2005, 02:19 PM	#22
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,079	Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile So if the body is so well understood, then I donâ€™t see why what I suggest is so preposterous. Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises? So instead of having a mid-life crisis and becoming mad as some humans do, I would prefer to go through the process of getting shut down and restarted only with certain features. It is precisely because it is understood how the body works that we know that what you're suggesting here is not possible.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

14th July 2005, 02:49 PM	#23
Gestahl Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 689	Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile Why canâ€™t we simply shut down certain chemical processes and turn them back on as the need arises? We do. Your body does not digest when there is no food in the stomach. The development of the human body in the womb is a fantastically complex example of selective chemical processes happening in response to hormones. For the person asking why computer/human comparisons are so rampant, I would guess it is because computers are the most complex thing we understand fully, and, in essence, is a general purpose construct (like us), thus useful for comparison to lots of other very complex things. Lastly, if you want to know the real source of life's energy, it's the same energy source that makes crystals form, and all chemical processes happen. In general, because it is the most efficient and stable way for things to be (locally, that is). Why that happens (i.e. tendency towards the most efficient and stable local configuration) is some heavy thermodynamics, and I do not feel qualified to answer that. Perhaps MRC_Hans could fill that in? As an aside, the universal currency of energy exchange in almost all organisms is ATP. This is how most "life energy" is stored and transfered in the body (the chemical energy in fats, sugars, and even proteins, in a pinch, are all converted to chemical energy stored in ATP via adding a phosphate group to ADP before the energy is actually used for anything).
	__________________ "By space the universe encompasses and swallows me up like an atom; by thought I comprehend the world." - Pascal

14th July 2005, 06:46 PM	#24
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by FreeChile Here's another curious question I've had for a while now and it may have a very solid scientific explanation. Where does the animal body get it's power from? I imagine it is from nutrition. However, I also understand a human being can go for 60+ days without eating and 3-5 days without drinking. I guess the mystics would explain this in terms of prana, life energy, the source, the spirit. So, I guess another word for "prana" is "fat."
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

15th July 2005, 07:37 AM	#25
FreeChile Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,039	Re: Re: Source of Life Energy Quote: Originally posted by epepke So, I guess another word for "prana" is "fat." Actually, no. The brain really likes sugar, not fat. Fat is eventually converted to glucose.