Canada V's USA

[lifegazer]

I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

(1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?
(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?
(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

[Luke T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?

I think Canadians liked paying taxes without representation. Taxes can't go too high for a Canadian. And they like the snazzy red uniforms of the British. Google "Mounties".

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(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?

Canadians are more laid back. Or frozen in place due to the latitude. Whatever, they just didn't get around to it when we did.

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(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?

Bigger is always better, I say.

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(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Canadian bacon. It's all about Canadian bacon.

[WildCat]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

(1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!

They insist that Quebec be included w/ the package. This is laughable on its face.

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(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?

They were (and are) much too polite to ask them to leave. In fact, Britain had to practically kick them out of the Empire.

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(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?

See the answer above, also note that it was difficult to heat a house back then and there was plenty of good fishing here.

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(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?

Stronger, but only if Quebec was left to fend for itself.

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(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Because it's just too easy. For Americans it's banter, Canadians have deep psychological problems brought on by cold and lack of sunlight. Many Canadians overcome this by wintering in Arizona and Florida.

Quote:

Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

I'm glad to be of service.

[lifegazer]

Hmm. Though I appreciate the humour, I'm really interested in the details of the history & politics here. I'm sincerely curious.
Is there any chance of some objective viewpoints here, or is this just going to be a thread where Americans mock Canadains... and vice versa?
... Hope not.

[Hutch]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

Probably the best place to post it, LG--albeit that you're likely to get a number of answers at cross-purposes. Anyway, here is my take, albeit that I'm not as well read on this topic as others.


(

Quote:

1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!

Well, probably you're right. Most of what is now Canada was French until the Wars of the mid-1700's (over here we called it the French and Indian War) between France and England led to England annexing the territory. The English choose to treat the areas as separate, although it could be argued that if we had remained a colony, they might have merged it one day.

(

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2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?

No, probably because the population of Canada was still sparse and a revolutionary spark never reached critical mass. The French settlers didn't do much either except grumble, which got them kicked out of Arcadia and sent to Louisiana (todays Cajuns)
This attitude puzzed the heck out of the American revolutionists, who sent several expeditions to Canada expecting the folks there to rebel and got nothing. After the Revolution many Tories (Americans who supported the King) fled to Canada and of course they had no particular love for the new country down South.

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(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?

Maybe Canadians can answer this better than I. My take again is sparse population (it's hard to get a good revolution going when your minutemen are days apart. And after the revolution the English reinforced, moved out the French, and welcomed the Tories. America had another go at adding Canada to the US in 1812-1814 and got a bloody nose from the effort. I guess simply the Canadian population did not feel the economic (much smaller trade with England/Europe that the Colonies) or loss of liberty (lots of wilderness, few cities/towns, don't like the Government, move out).


(

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4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?

Ain't going to happen in this particlar universe, but positing a parallel universe, the Combined States would be much stronger economically.

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(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Most Americans ignore Canada, to be honest. Down in Alabama they are almost a mythical race with a land covered by strange white material called "snow". Canadians feel (IMHO, not being Canadian) that they are dominated by their much more populous neighbor to the South (about 20M vs 300M) and are choking on American culture, TV, books, politics, etc., to the detriment of their own. Is it true? I'll leave that to the Canadian members to respond too. So humor is one of the few weapons available.

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Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

I'll see what my library provides.

[Ryokan]

OMG! Lifegazer in the politics forum, and not talking about Gazerism!

Do remember that 'back in the days', the Americans didn't have as much animosity towards the French as today. Google 'General Lafayette' to understand why.

ETA : I did it for you, I think it would be interesting for many Americans to read as well : http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95sep/lafayette.html

[Ed]

As I recall we did send soldiers up there on occasion, the latest in the early 1800's. I think that the affair was called off due to boredom. After all, we annexed/took-over/stole everything westward from -- this is important -- mexicans or indians. Up north we sorta had cousins (except Quebec, naturally).

It is useful as things are. This way if the kid of a politition wants to avoid the armed services they can just thumb a ride over the freedom bridge or whatever it is called. Also, government officials can import all of the pot they want while waging a war on drugs with the wily mexicans. Our gay population has fantasies over RCMP dudes singing "Naughty Marietta". We get to mock each other to our hearts content and there is no real danger of physical violence. It is sorta like you and the Welsh except our place names are mutually comprehensible (and pronounceable).

American kids basically do not know 15 place names in the US as it is. Adding a bunch more would only screw up testing norms and cause Jesse Jackson to babble incomprehenceibly about "racial bias" or some crap or other. Also, most Canadians don't want any part of our black folks (they say that they melt the snow when they lay down) and we sure don't want any more damn indians slapping leans on the financial district because of alleged treaty violations.

The Federal Reverve has expressed dismay over the reconciliation of the beaver pelt money standard with our system.

So, we have a workable system between our countries and avoid almost all of the pitfalls by maintaining the status quo. Plus if the Russkies act up, they get them first.

[AmateurScientist]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hutch

Most Americans ignore Canada, to be honest. Down in Alabama they are almost a mythical race with a land covered by strange white material called "snow".

I'll beg to differ just a little bit, if you don't mind, Hutch.

At least in my city, we're very grateful to Candians for providing us our best hockey players for our championship college and professional teams. No kidding; we have a great college hockey team and a decent minor league professional team.

The fans love them.

AS

[Jorghnassen]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

(1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?
(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?
(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

1) A few things: the colonies of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and PEI didn't rebel against England. The English made sure that the recently acquired Quebec colony didn't join the rebellion either with the Quebec Act in 1774 (which assured the existence of Catholic faith, i.e. they bought the influential clergy, and re-instated French civil law). Following the US revolution, those of the 13 colonies who were still loyal to the crown fled to Canada (we call them the Loyalists). Hence two seperate countries.

2) My guess is economic factors didn't look so unfavourable to the Northern colonies. Quebec didn't join for reasons mentioned above (though Ben Franklin did try to convince them to join).

3) Probably has to due with the fact that, despite the defeat against the American revolutionaries, the British empire was an established, strong and structured power, compared to a risky US of A experiment. It took a long time for the US to become a real, united power at the world stage.

4) In theory, stronger. In practice, it might just exasperate the blue state/red state division and in the end split into the United States of Canada vs Jesusland, who knows.

5) Human nature. Why do Brits mock the French (and vice-versa)? Why do the French mock the people from Belgium? Why do Swedes mock Finns?

[jordan_o]

Quote:

(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

I think it's all in good fun.

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Down in Alabama they are almost a mythical race with a land covered by strange white material called "snow".

Hey, up here we see Alabama as a barren wasteland full of Jesus freaks so we're even

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Canadians feel (IMHO, not being Canadian) that they are dominated by their much more populous neighbor to the South (about 20M vs 300M) and are choking on American culture, TV, books, politics, etc., to the detriment of their own. Is it true?

This is funny. Most people think Canadians hate it but they're wrong. We have grown up with it so we automatically think it's ours too. I've never heard a complaint outside of Quebec ******** complaining that there isn't enough French Canadian culture broadcasted to the rest of the provinces. Those guys mistakenly think we give a **** about them, silly Quebecers

[Jorghnassen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hutch
(about 20M vs 300M)

Actually, about 30M vs 300M (32.8 vs 295.7 according to CIA World Factbook)...

[gmanontario]

We are so polite that after kicking the americans butts in the war of 1812, we let them keep Buffalo and Cleveland! Are we generous or what?

Personally I enjoy mocking my american friends and getting mocked in return. I've spent many nights in the US sharing beer and a BBQ throwing hilarious insults around.

PS our side of Niagara Falls was worth fighing for..lol..the US side is a pale imitation of the Horseshoe falls. Plus they have the Love Canal there.

Anyways I feel making fun of americans and vice versa is a fun pastime.

[Rob Lister]

Quote:

Originally posted by gmanontario
Anyways I feel making fun of americans and vice versa is a fun pastime.

And we love it when you do it. Sort of like holding a small child's head while he tries to swing at you. It's amusing.

[AmateurScientist]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
And we love it when you do it. Sort of like holding a small child's head while he tries to swing at you. It's amusing.

LOL.

AS

[Art Vandelay]

Warning! Nitpicks Ahead!

We wouldn't be accepting Canada into the Constitution, we'd be accepting them into the Union. And it's Canada vs. USA, not Canada V's USA.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
It is useful as things are. This way if the kid of a politition wants to avoid the armed services they can just thumb a ride over the freedom bridge or whatever it is called...

and we sure don't want any more damn indians slapping leans on the financial district because of alleged treaty violations.

"politition"? "leans"?

Jorghnassen

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In practice, it might just exasperate the blue state/red state division and in the end split into the United States of Canada vs Jesusland,

"exasperate"? And shouldn't it be "United States of PC Freaks vs Jesusland"?

National Canadian motto: "Canada: because California is just too right-wing."

[Jorghnassen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay


Jorghnassen
"exasperate"? And shouldn't it be "United States of PC Freaks vs Jesusland"?

Answer to your first question (emphasis mine):

Quote:

2 entries found for exasperate.
ex·as·per·ate Audio pronunciation of "exasperate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-zsp-rt)
tr.v. ex·as·per·at·ed, ex·as·per·at·ing, ex·as·per·ates

1. To make very angry or impatient; annoy greatly.
2. To increase the gravity or intensity of: “a scene... that exasperates his rose fever and makes him sneeze” (Samuel Beckett).

For your second question: I was just quoting a very famous silly photoshop from Nov. 3 2004 (I guess).

[Igopogo]

My take on it is that the United Empire Loyalists (anyone wanting to stay part of a British colony) crossed over the St Lawrence & Great Lakes in large numbers to Upper & Lower Canada to escape the revolution. This tipped the political balance in favour of staying with the British.

I've read that Ben Franklin was trying to get the British to throw in Canada as part of the treaty agreement after the revolution, but don't know how true this is.

Now Canada evolves, and America revolves. If you want to want change in Canada, you write a witty piece of legislation. In the US, you grab your gun start shooting eveything you don't like. Yet in the end we still end up in roughly the same place.

Weather does probably play a large part. It doesn't get hot enough here to even work up a good tax revolt - but wait til global warming kicks in...Yankees BEWARE!!!!

[Mid]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer

...snip...
(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?
...snip...

Wikipedia has some interesting speculation on that and says that it could be due to the war of 1812:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

[SmooveK]

I think that as other nations gain prominence, the US would be more likely to look for alliances with its neighbors.

These people really hope for it, and some arguments make some sense:

United North America

[Mojo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke T.
Canadians are more laid back. Or frozen in place due to the latitude.

Do you mean "chilled out?"

[Hutch]

Quote:

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
I'll beg to differ just a little bit, if you don't mind, Hutch.

At least in my city, we're very grateful to Candians for providing us our best hockey players for our championship college and professional teams. No kidding; we have a great college hockey team and a decent minor league professional team.

The fans love them.

AS

AS, you forget I'm you're next door neighbor down here and am aware of the UAH Chargers and the pros (what league and team name are they playing under this year?) down at the VB Center.
At least they keep the Medical Center busy treating players after the fights that break out every, oh, 6-7 minutes in the minors....

But there hasn't been snow on the ground here since I got back in 2003 and let's be honest, if we ever got 2-3" of the stuff, this state would shut down

[Charlie Monoxide]

This thread shows the typical ignorance of Canada by Americans and other countries. Heck, someone felt comfortable enough to hack off 1/3 the Canadian population (yes it's over 30 million, not 20 million).

In 1759 the English got tired of the French controlling the St Lawrence (main route into the English Upper Canada - Ontario). The English sieged Quebec City for about 5 months and in a battle that lasted about 1/2 an hour (Plains of Abraham), took all of the French holdings in Canada. The king in France at the time (I'm blanking on his name, this is all off the top of me head), really didn't see much value in Canada and basically abandonned the French there during the siege. The victorious English allowed the French in Quebec to keep their language, culture and laws. I feel this was a mistake (bien oui!).

Canada was populated mostly by English and conquered French by 1776 and had no interest in joining the Americans rebellion against England.

As to why the Americans mock the Canadians and vice versus: The Americans really have no clue about Canada, and could care less, but they think they are profound wits when they use "eh?" in a sentence about Canada and babble on about the snow and hockey. Canadians on the other hand have always had identity and self esteem issues. This is projected through American bashing and insincere politeness shown to American tourists in Canada.

Charlie (who burned the white house down? twice!) Monoxide

[Luke T.]

Until Canada admits that their bacon is really ham, the negotiations for their admittance as our 51st state will remain deadlocked.

And this business about Quebec is just a smokescreen to get us to accept Newfoundland.

[KelvinG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Lister
And we love it when you do it. Sort of like holding a small child's head while he tries to swing at you. It's amusing.

And we love to do it back. Kinda like teasing the schoolyard bully, whose all brawn, no brains.

[KelvinG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke T.
Until Canada admits that their bacon is really ham, the negotiations for their admittance as our 51st state will remain deadlocked.

Actually, it's you chumps who need to figure out that Canadian bacon is really ham. Noboby up here calls it Canadian bacon.

[KelvinG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
This thread shows the typical ignorance of Canada by Americans and other countries. Heck, someone felt comfortable enough to hack off 1/3 the Canadian population (yes it's over 30 million, not 20 million).

In 1759 the English got tired of the French controlling the St Lawrence (main route into the English Upper Canada - Ontario). The English sieged Quebec City for about 5 months and in a battle that lasted about 1/2 an hour (Plains of Abraham), took all of the French holdings in Canada. The king in France at the time (I'm blanking on his name, this is all off the top of me head), really didn't see much value in Canada and basically abandonned the French there during the siege. The victorious English allowed the French in Quebec to keep their language, culture and laws. I feel this was a mistake (bien oui!).

Canada was populated mostly by English and conquered French by 1776 and had no interest in joining the Americans rebellion against England.

As to why the Americans mock the Canadians and vice versus: The Americans really have no clue about Canada, and could care less, but they think they are profound wits when they use "eh?" in a sentence about Canada and babble on about the snow and hockey. Canadians on the other hand have always had identity and self esteem issues. This is projected through American bashing and insincere politeness shown to American tourists in Canada.

Charlie (who burned the white house down? twice!) Monoxide

As usually, Charlie Monoxide is right on the money.

[Luke T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by KelvinG
Actually, it's you chumps who need to figure out that Canadian bacon is really ham. Noboby up here calls it Canadian bacon.

So how come when you order a BLT in Canada, you get a ham, lettuce, and tomato sandwich?

[KelvinG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke T.
So how come when you order a BLT in Canada, you get a ham, lettuce, and tomato sandwich?

What restaurant's are you eating at?

[KelvinG]

Quote:

[B}Because it's just too easy. For Americans it's banter, Canadians have deep psychological problems brought on by cold and lack of sunlight. Many Canadians overcome this by wintering in Arizona and Florida.
[/b]

Not like those balmy Chicago winters, eh? (threw in an "eh" for you amusment)

Actually, you should come to Vancouver to vacation for the winter. It's much warmer than Chicago and snow is a rarity. Although, I will concede, you won't see as much sun!

[Orwell]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
I'm an ignorant Englander who wants some swift answers to a couple of questions. I wasn't sure whether to post this in history or politics - due to my ignorance. But I guessed that politics was at the heart of the answers I shall be given, so I posted it here.

(1) Why do two countries exist instead of one? (Why isn't Canada part of the USA, or the USA part of Canada?)
... I'm guessing that it has something to do with the French. Could be wrong though!
(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?
(4) Would America be stronger or weaker if it accepted Canada into the constitution at this present date?
(5) Why do Americans mock Canadians and vice versa? Just banter, or does it stem from some deep psychological resentment?

Any information that anyone has regarding the division between Canada/USA will interest me.
Cheers.

Oh boy, you created an opportunity for more clueless Canada bashing (see Ed's post for a glowing example)... For that, may a pox be upon your house.

[Orwell]

Quote:

Originally posted by KelvinG
As usually, Charlie Monoxide is right on the money.

Except for the swipe at Quebec. Frankly, if it wasn't for Quebec, it would be even harder to distinguish the rest of Canada (with the possible exception of the Maritimes) from the US.

[RandFan]

The whole issues just screams for humor and sarcasm (see Great White North and Canadian Bacon). There is such a huge dichotomy while at the same time there are so many similarities. You usually have to be told when somone is Canadian. Unlike our neighbors to the south the culture and idoms are far more similar than dissimilar (not counting the pea soup eaters, la québécoise, but then we have our own mirror in the cajuns). Canadians only need to learn how to propery pronounce the letter "u". Not too damn bad if you ask me. Of course we have our own problems with folks from North Dakota, Boston and the south.

AIU the Canadians and Americans have an unprecedented relationship and the largest unprotected border in the world. I honestly think that the dynamic is a good one and we are stronger seperate than together. I think our differences are sufficient to warrant seperate nations. Vive la difference I say... oh hell... how did so much of that french language worm its way into American culture? There ought to be a law...

To my Canadian brethren I say, let's rendevouz and have some freedom fries.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Quote:

Originally posted by Orwell
Except for the swipe at Quebec. Frankly, if it wasn't for Quebec, it would be even harder to distinguish the rest of Canada (with the possible exception of the Maritimes) from the US.

It wasn't a swipe at Quebec. I'm half French-Canadian and I'm sure I have relatives that fought and died in 1759 for the French. If the Brits had done a more typical emperialistic job of assimilating the French in Quebec, we wouldn't have the seperatist problems that have been plaguing Canada since the 1960's.

You are correct that Quebec and Newfoundland do give Canada a lot of uniqueness. If Canada would have adopted French as the official language, we wouldn't have the culteral over-kill that we get from the US.

Je m'appelle Charlie Monoxide, et j'suis Canadian!

[Orwell]

You know what, I would say that only about 25% of the Quebecois are really serious about independence. Another 25% to 30% are on the fence. The rest want to stay in Canada. I'm one of those guys who are on the fence. You know why? Because I get irritated at the Federal government's inability to acknowledge the bloody obvious: Quebec is not a province like the others. This difference should receive some kind of constitutional recognition, which would be a gesture that would greatly help French-Canadians to feel like they're actually a part of Canada. I tell ya, if you do this simple thing, all your problems with Quebec separatism will be over forever.

Oh, and whenever I hear someone say that Canada would have been better off if the french-canadians had been assimilated, I get a strong urge to vote "oui" at the next referendum... And I voted "non" at the last one.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Quote:

Originally posted by Orwell
I get irritated at the Federal government's inability to acknowledge the bloody obvious: Quebec is not a province like the others. This difference should receive some kind of constitutional recognition, which would be a gesture that would greatly help French-Canadians to feel like they're actually a part of Canada. I tell ya, if you do this simple thing, all your problems with Quebec separatism will be over forever.

Are you saying Orwell, that by creating 2 classes of Canadians (regular and different), we would achieve harmony in Canada? I've had lots of exposure to Les Quebecois telling me how "distinct" they are. Since I'm half French-Canadian, am I only semi-distinct, like looking through rose-coloured glasses.

If the Brits had done a proper job of assimilation of the French, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. It's the proper way to take over countries and destroy wonderful cultures.

Charlie (One Canada, One People) Monoxide

[Orwell]

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
Are you saying Orwell, that by creating 2 classes of Canadians (regular and different), we would achieve harmony in Canada? I've had lots of exposure to Les Quebecois telling me how "distinct" they are. Since I'm half French-Canadian, am I only semi-distinct, like looking through rose-coloured glasses.

If the Brits had done a proper job of assimilation of the French, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. It's the proper way to take over countries and destroy wonderful cultures.

Charlie (One Canada, One People) Monoxide

The recognition that Quebec has a different culture would produce two classes of Canadians? I don't get it. It would be just a symbolic recognition, and it is obvious to me that Quebec "distinctiveness" would be subordinated to the charter of rights. Legally, I really don't think things would change relative to the way they are now. Different but equal, man, that's all!

Those comments about assimilation really give me the impression that I can't get no r-e-s-p-e-c-t.

[lifegazer]

Thanks for the responses. Interesting stuff.

About Canada...
Do French Canadians hate/dislike other Canadians (and vice versa), and does Quebec want independence? If so, will it ever get it?

[Charlie Monoxide]

Quote:

Originally posted by lifegazer
Thanks for the responses. Interesting stuff.

About Canada...
Do French Canadians hate/dislike other Canadians (and vice versa), and does Quebec want independence? If so, will it ever get it?

The short answer is yes. I lived many years in a French/English environment (Ottawa and Ottawa Valley). I had the displeasure to meet a number of Quebecois who had no qualms about telling me their dislikes of English Canadians (especially the Jewish, Native and Black ones). These Quebecois were also totally convinced that ROC (rest of Canada) absolutely hated them as well. The only logical solution was seperation.

If you want to get a good feel for the seperatist movement through an Anglo's eyes, read "Oh Canada, Oh Quebec" by Mordicai Richler.

Orwell, if you're seeking some respect, check out a Canadian Federal Government phone-book. Check the surnames of upper-management (Directors and what-not). Canada loves French Canadians so much, that the majority of senior civil service positions are staffed by them. I have no problem with this.

Charlie (feeling referendumish) Monoxide

[seayakin]

(2) Why didn't the Canadians want to kick English butt as happened further south in 1776? Due to the French again?
There were a variety of factors but fleeing loyalists were only part of the picture. The following quotes are from

Defining Moments and Recurring Myths: Comparing Canadians and Americans after the American Revolution ,
By: Grabb, Edward, Curtis, James, Baer, Douglas, Canadian Review of Sociology & Anthropology , 00084948, Nov2000, Vol. 37, Issue 4

“The Revolutionary leader, John Adams, estimated that only about a third of the population truly supported the break with Britain, with another third largely indifferent and the remaining third opposed (Shenkman, 1988: 84; Hanna, 1902, Vol. I: 84). Analyses by historians place the proportion somewhat lower, at between 20 and 30 per cent, or about 500,000 people (e.g., Condon, 1984: ix, 20). In either instance, the vast majority of those who opposed the war with Britain appear to have done so passively or tacitly, since estimates indicate that no more than 100,000 moved elsewhere (Smith, 1968; Wood, 1992: 176; Thompson and Randall, 1994: 15; Osborne and Swainson, 1988: 25).”

However not all of these folks remained in Canada

“It is also significant that, of the roughly 100,000 Americans who did leave during the Revolutionary era, more than half, or perhaps 60,000, abandoned North America altogether, many of them returning to Britain, and others moving to Bermuda, the West Indies and elsewhere (Condon, 1984: 1; Stuart, 1988: 23; Noel, 1990: 9; Thompson and Randall, 1994: 15; Bell and Tepperman, 1979: 45; Senior and Brown, 1987; Upton, 1971: 43). This contingent may have included the most steadfastly loyal British subjects of all the emigres. Although speculative, this hypothesis seems plausible if we consider that the Loyalist elite leaders and top bureaucratic officials, most of whom would have been fervent proponents of British ideas and interests, were heavily represented among those who chose not to go to Canada (Bell and Tepperman, 1979: 53; Craig, 1968: 93; Upton, 1971: 44).” (Bermuda sounds not too bad today )

The author indicates that another argument has been that Canadians were provided with incentives to remain loyal.

“One basis for Lipset's argument that Canada has always been a more statist society than the United States concerns the British provision of economic assistance to some Canadian colonials, especially during the period spanning the Revolution and the first few decades of the 19th century. British officials at this time did offer forms of aid to Loyalists, military veterans and others, especially in frontier areas. As noted previously, these included opportunities to acquire their own land at little or no cost, as well as free tools, weapons and other supplies to help in the initial phases of settlement (Errington, 1994: 22; Noel, 1990: 34; Duncan, 1976: 51-52; also Harris and Warkentin, 1974: 113-16, 166; Craig, 1963: 7-8, 52).”
However, the author indicates that these giveaways were provided to the elite in society and many missed out.
The other issue is geography, the 13 colonies had an integrated economy and more cooperative arrangements.

(3) Why didn't Canada want to become a part of the USA when the North American populace proved that it had the heart/brain/stomach to exist without the English/European backbone?

This also has as much to do with the fact that the Crown changed many of its policies after the Revolutionary War. (See the land give-aways etc.)

[Orwell]

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide
The short answer is yes. I lived many years in a French/English environment (Ottawa and Ottawa Valley). I had the displeasure to meet a number of Quebecois who had no qualms about telling me their dislikes of English Canadians (especially the Jewish, Native and Black ones). These Quebecois were also totally convinced that ROC (rest of Canada) absolutely hated them as well. The only logical solution was seperation.

If you want to get a good feel for the seperatist movement through an Anglo's eyes, read "Oh Canada, Oh Quebec" by Mordicai Richler.

Orwell, if you're seeking some respect, check out a Canadian Federal Government phone-book. Check the surnames of upper-management (Directors and what-not). Canada loves French Canadians so much, that the majority of senior civil service positions are staffed by them. I have no problem with this.

Charlie (feeling referendumish) Monoxide

Oh Jesus, Mary and Joseph! I don't know who the hell Charlie Monoxide has been talking too, but that doesn't come even close to my experience with French-Canadians! Yes, there are some racist french-canadians (but not more than anywhere else), and yeah, some french-canadians like to bitch about the rest of Canada. So what? I'm an immigrant to Quebec, I've been living in Montreal for 16 year now. I have a french-canadian wife. I spend most of my days at an english speaking university and 30% of its students are french-canadians. I have but seldom come across the kind of bigotry Charlie talks about. Most of quebec's younger generation (anglos included) are fully bilingual, and that "hatred" that Charlie alludes is nearly non-existent among the people I talk to everyday. Quebec is, by far, the most "liberal" province in Canada!

Oh, and Mordecai Richler was an old Jewish geezer that was born and raise in Montreal back in the days when French-Canadians were second class-citizens. His writings reflect a kind of nostalgia for that time, when Quebec's economy was entirely between the hands of a small Montreal born English speaking "aristocracy". He never quite managed to digest the fact that, starting in the late sixties, the French-Canadians asserted their place, and took over their province. He was one of those old anglos who never bothered to learn much French (in a province were over 70% of the population speak french) and that looked down upon French-Canadian culture. Mordecai Richler was a good writer, but he was most of all a satirist and a provocateur, and he wasn't truly going for any kind of objectiveness. His points of view are usually very biased against both Quebecers and Quebec society. It's one of the worst places to go if you want a real idea of what modern Canada (and Quebec) is.

Yeah, there are heaps of French-speaking Canadians in the civil service, and that's one of the things that make me like Canada. But still, that doesn't give many Quebecers the kind of recognition they want.