|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
26th July 2005, 05:07 PM | #1 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 155
|
Testable bible verses
I was skimming through the annotated skeptics bible [url=http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com[/URL] and I found a scientifically testable theory about curing leprosy. It is found in Leviticus 14 (whole chapter).
Quote:
Thanks Canadarocks |
26th July 2005, 06:11 PM | #2 |
Insert something funny here
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,816
|
There's that thing about the followers of Christ being able to drink poison
|
26th July 2005, 06:14 PM | #3 |
Forum Turnip
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,655
|
Quote:
|
__________________
Currently brain-dead due to sudden-onset motherhood.
|
|
26th July 2005, 07:32 PM | #4 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 155
|
Can you give me Ch and Vrs? Curious minds need to know!
|
26th July 2005, 09:30 PM | #5 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,935
|
Re: Testable bible verses
Quote:
Rather, it sets forth the regulations for the removal of the state of ritual uncleanliness from a person who previously suffered from symptoms of leprosy. Notice how verse 13 indicates that the ritual should be carried out on someone only after the priest has examined him and concluded that the "plague of leprosy is healed". Notice also the distinction established between the use of the words "healed" and "cleansed" in Leviticus 14. For anyone who might have missed it, the chapter's purpose is reiterated in the final verse: "To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy." Not to teach when (or how) it is healed and when it is not healed, or any such nonsense. Certain Mosiac cleansing rituals probably had some actual salutary effect in terms of hygiene, but the leprosy provisions in Leviticus are described as a law, not a medical prescription. Laws affect a person's legal status (in this case, the ceremonial religious law of the ancient Hebrews). They do not affect the physical world (e.g., bodily health) except indirectly. Hebrews living thousands of years ago apparently understood this elementary notion better than the authors of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. Which brings me reluctantly to a further point. This is another example of how shockingly badly written and reasoned parts of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible are. It's embarrassing, frankly. One almost wishes words like skeptic and its cognates could be trademarked or otherwise subjected to some kind of use regulation, so that some degree of quality control could be maintained and the movement would not be brought into occasional disrepute. |
27th July 2005, 03:05 AM | #6 |
Thinker
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 155
|
Thanks for the reply and the review of the chapter. I agree with your assessment and, unfortunately, this is no longer a testable claim (I wonder whether there are others like the poison the other posters indicated).
Given your (correct) interpretation, I wonder whether this ritual (or any of the sacrificial rituals in Leviticus) are followed by any Christian/Jewish sects? |
27th July 2005, 05:33 AM | #7 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,452
|
canadarocks
Quote:
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord [Jesus, the Christ] had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord [Jesus, the Christ] working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. But those clever Christians (some protestant sects at least) already claim that part isn’t inerrant, but that doesn’t invalidate the inerrancy of the bible as a whole. Actually there is already a discussion about those parts going on in the One of my complaints about religion thread. Ossai |
__________________
The other moral to be drawn from the story [of Job] is that if you lead a good virtuous life, God will urge Satan to kill your family for a bet. Perhaps you should try to sin a little now and then, just to keep your children safe. - Dr Adequate www.stopsylvia.com |
|
27th July 2005, 07:02 AM | #8 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,556
|
Taken from SAB:
Quote:
|
27th July 2005, 07:36 AM | #9 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,452
|
triadboy
Quote:
Ossai |
__________________
The other moral to be drawn from the story [of Job] is that if you lead a good virtuous life, God will urge Satan to kill your family for a bet. Perhaps you should try to sin a little now and then, just to keep your children safe. - Dr Adequate www.stopsylvia.com |
|
27th July 2005, 08:54 AM | #10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,729
|
Re: Re: Testable bible verses
Quote:
|
27th July 2005, 10:44 AM | #11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,171
|
Quote:
|
__________________
--------------------------------------------- Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. --Superintendent Chalmers |
|
27th July 2005, 01:35 PM | #12 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,494
|
Re: Re: Re: Testable bible verses
Quote:
|
__________________
"One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida |
|
27th July 2005, 03:01 PM | #13 |
I lost an avatar bet.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
|
Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
We can easily test to see if anyone has the faith of a mustard seed by asking everyone to say to a mountain: "remove hence to yonder place." |
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
|
27th July 2005, 11:07 PM | #14 |
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 8,004
|
Quote:
Generally, they use the following principles: (bases covered) 1: Does the passage make sense literally? If so that is the best choice. 2: What is the context? 3: Is there a higher principle being shown? 4: Just but because we don't understand it does not make it false. (It could be a mystery) Examples:
Quote:
Quote:
It is almost certainly considered a heresy, but I find it useful to think of these things abstractly, like what goes into a painting. A painting involves craftsmanship, and following some rules, but there is still a lot of room for everyone seeing something a little different. There are limits though - a portrait is not easily promoted as a landscape, and some ideas find more support in scripture than others. |
28th July 2005, 09:51 AM | #15 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,814
|
Quote:
And what does Jesus say? Huh? He says "Thou shall not put the Lord to the test." Thus if you try to test this stuff, you might very well fail just because God does not want to be proven. In this way, the Bible hides under the rock with Sylvia and many others. Bible writers were using the anti-Randi arguments 2000 years ago. Although religion is silent on my next question: What's the spiritual imperative value in believing in something with no proof? Why would anyone, especially a god who can read minds, find that valuable? Oh, sure, we know why mortal thugs value this, but God is supposed to be better than that. |
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
|
28th July 2005, 09:54 AM | #16 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,814
|
Quote:
|
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
|
28th July 2005, 04:35 PM | #17 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,494
|
Quote:
|
__________________
"One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate. . . . The point I am trying to make is that to be authentic freethinkers, to be authentic truth seekers, we must draw on the best information available to substantiate our claims." -- Gerald LaRue, Freethinkers United! Conference 1997, Orlando, Florida |
|
28th July 2005, 08:40 PM | #18 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,935
|
Quote:
|
29th July 2005, 07:27 AM | #19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
Quote:
IOW, if God exists, it would be a sin for me to believe in him. |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
30th July 2005, 06:37 PM | #20 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,935
|
Quote:
And frankly, neither unbelief nor (under ordinary circumstances) belief is ever going to be subject to proof. So it is very likely that some degree of faith is going to be operating either way. |
30th July 2005, 10:03 PM | #21 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,420
|
Quote:
As for the snakebites, I don't know if there is a way to guarantee a poisonous snake will inject venom every single bite. |
31st July 2005, 10:39 AM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
Quote:
Apparently, God (or the Holy Spirit, as the case may be) has not given me the gift of "believing in things without evidence." I speak for myself. YMMV. |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
31st July 2005, 07:43 PM | #23 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,935
|
Quote:
What does empirical intuition mean, if anything at all?
Quote:
|
1st August 2005, 06:50 AM | #24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 21,398
|
Quote:
Then I don't use intuition. My "intuition" is to apply previous experience to determine a best procedure. Personal, that's what I think _most_ intuition really is, anyway. I don't believe that most people who claim to be acting by intuition are doing it without reasoning or inferring at all.
Quote:
Try me. Tell me something I believe without any evidence or rational basis at all. |
__________________
Gunter Haas, the 'leading British expert,' was a graphologist who advised couples, based on their handwriting characteristics, if they were compatible for marriage. I would submit that couples idiotic enough to do this are probably quite suitable for each other. It's nice when stupid people find love. - Ludovic Kennedy |
|
1st August 2005, 07:32 AM | #25 |
Scheme Monkey
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,045
|
Quote:
First off, the poisons they drink are either generally very dilute, or not substances very toxic to people in small quantities. Strychnine is often cited as a drink of choice, and here's a link concerning toxicty . . . note the bottom of the page, in partcular. Link. Great dilution plus some good prep renders this almost harmless. As for the snakes, well, snake handling is an old art. Basic herpetology gives you some decent instruction on the matter. I knew students that safely handled copperheads and the like after just a week of classes. Also, the snake storage boxes generally aren't kept all that warm. Lethargic reptiles = more safety. Also, though I haven't witnessed it, I have heard that the snakes being handled are occasionally milked prior to demonstations, thus reducing the amount of venom available. Interviews with most older members of the church point to very infrequent bites, with medical attention applied to serious ones. Someone might be solid in their faith that they'll be okay, but the organization as a whole can't take that risk with the possibility of being shut down. |
1st November 2005, 01:28 AM | #26 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 176
|
i remember that right after the flood, god says nobody can live longer than 120 years [Genesis 6:3] -- just find someone over 120 years old, (for a long time, the appologists said the age limit tapered off for a while -- that's why there are people over 120 after the flood).
there was another prophecy that said that an uncircumcised man would never walk the streets of jerusalem, [Isaiah 52:1]. either you could do an "inspection", (ewwww!), or just ask someone who is uncircumcised to get his picture taken standing in jerusalm. |
__________________
"I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would be an affront to your intelligence." -- George Bernard Shaw |
|
1st November 2005, 10:31 AM | #27 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,814
|
Sure, I started a thread awhile back on how God declared Man's lifespan shall be 120 years. Normal fundy vs. athiest argumentation revolves around whether this was before or after the last Patriarch died. Technically, the quote is before, but fundies argue it actually implies after. Or doesn't apply to them. Or applies to a segment of the population and not Mankind in general, or to pigs, or llamas or some such.
Sadly, a real, modern woman lived to be 121. Current fundamentalist squirming involves: 1. Her records are a lie (by her or someone on behalf of her) or she is confused 2. She's a chick, and the oldest actual man only lived to 120 years, and 120 years includes 120 years and 364 days. And this also may involve lies or confusion If you ask me, the guy who made up that part of the Bible picked an impossibly old age limit to explain why nobody lived as long as the Patriarchs anymore, assuming nobody would actually live that long. Bzzzt! Sorry, game over. Thanks for playing. |
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
|
1st November 2005, 10:40 AM | #28 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 32,814
|
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters.
|
__________________
"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
|
1st November 2005, 11:54 PM | #29 |
Muse
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 975
|
Actually Ransom - we all "know" from the "science of homoeopathy" that diluting something makes it stronger! These folks must really be on to something!
What we really need is for a fundie to spend three days & nights in the belly of a great fish or whale - any suggestions? How about Kent Hovind? YBW |
__________________
I was planning to study Clairvoyance in school, but as I knew I would fail the exam, decided against it. And thanks to SkepticJ: We'd outgrown the fables, I knew. The sun isn't Apollo's chariot, of course, it's a star that began burning when a god said "Let there be light". Man was not created from clay by Zeus, he was created from clay by Yahweh. Hades didn't restore Euridice to life, please. That would be absurd. Jesus did, of course, restore Lazarus to life.... What morons we were before. How wise we are now. - Dale McGowan |
|
2nd November 2005, 12:32 AM | #30 |
Vegan Cannibal
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,567
|
Jesus said "He that believeth on me ... out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38)
So unless some religious christian panatic is spewing a geyser from his navel instead of staring into it, tell him he's obviously not a true believer, and quote that passage. |
__________________
Cows are in large numbers, and do not serve any other purpose, other than to eat grass, and moo -- makaya325
I ♥ my kids. I ♠ my dog. I ♣ my baby Harp Seal. |
|
2nd November 2005, 12:39 AM | #31 |
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 647
|
That was hilarious Leroy
|
2nd November 2005, 01:32 AM | #32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,508
|
Originally Posted by Lev. 14.47
|
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley |
|
2nd November 2005, 04:24 PM | #33 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 9,006
|
Here is something I remember Brown pointing out about a year ago, Numbers 5:11-28:
Quote:
If you could get it passed the Ethics Committee, these few verses sound simple enough to test. |
5th December 2005, 09:53 AM | #34 |
Homo Skepticalis
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,027
|
|
__________________
We have reached a point in time where reality and satire have intersected and now you can't tell the difference. -- Lewis Black There is a cult of ignorance . . . nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge. -- Isaac Asimov |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|