Jihad: It's not just an internal struggle anymore.

[Mycroft]

Well, for some people it's not, anyway.

Quote:

Bombs explode across Bangladesh

Officials say more than 300 explosions took place simultaneously in 50 cities and towns across the country including the capital Dhaka.

...

Leaflets from the Jamatul Mujahideen Bangladesh have appeared at the site of some of the blasts.

"It is time to implement Islamic law in Bangladesh" and "Bush and Blair be warned and get out of Muslim countries", the leaflets say.

Early this year the Bangladesh government banned Jamatul Mujahideen and another group, Jagrata Muslim Janata Bangladesh

When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club. These guys go straight for the explosives.

[demon]

"When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club. These guys go straight for the explosives."

Yep, they really should get a cool name for it, like "Shock and Awe" or something.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by demon
"When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club. These guys go straight for the explosives."

Yep, they really should get a cool name for it, like "Shock and Awe" or something.

Interesting. You're implying that Iraq is going to become a Christian theocracy.

I'd like to see your evidence for that.

[The idea]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft
Interesting. You're implying that Iraq is going to become a Christian theocracy.

I'd like to see your evidence for that.

I thought demon was insinuating that there is no significant difference between the current use of explosives by terrorists in Iraq and the use of explosives by the US military to remove Saddam Hussein from power.

Questions for demon:

Was there a way to remove Saddam Hussein from power without force?

Is there no way to peacefully and safely work to replace the current government of Iraq?

[Crossbow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft
Interesting. You're implying that Iraq is going to become a Christian theocracy.

I'd like to see your evidence for that.

Er, I think 'demon' is trying to imply that the "Shock and Awe" used in Iraq would be useful in making the USA a Christian theocracy.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow
Er, I think 'demon' is trying to imply that the "Shock and Awe" used in Iraq would be useful in making the USA a Christian theocracy.

Really?! That's interesting.

Should I ask you or Demon to clarify this reasoning?

[Crossbow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft
Really?! That's interesting.

Should I ask you or Demon to clarify this reasoning?

OK, I will try to clarify it for you.

It may have missed your notice but there have been many times when Bush has used his office to further his religious agenda; ever since 9/11 he often links his religion with his war. Here are a few examples to get you started.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010430-2.html

National Day of Prayer, 2001
By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
April 30, 2001

...

The theme of the 2001 National Day of Prayer is "One Nation Under God." In a prayer written specially for the occasion, Americans are asked to pray for "a moral and spiritual renewal to help us meet the many problems we face." Special observances are scheduled for all 50 States, with local volunteers planning a variety of activities including prayer breakfasts, concerts, rallies, and student gatherings. These events will bring people of all faiths together, each according to his or her own beliefs, to give thanks to the Almighty and to ask for strength and guidance.

...

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 3, 2001, as a National Day of Prayer. I encourage the citizens of our Nation to pray each in his or her own manner, seeking God's blessings on our families and govern-ment officials and personal renewal, moral awakening, and a new spirit of harmony across our land. I urge all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-seventh day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-fifth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0020207-1.html

President's Remarks at National Prayer Breakfast
February 7, 2002

...

Since we met last year, millions of Americans have been led to prayer. They have prayed for comfort in time of grief; for understanding in a time of anger; for protection in a time of uncertainty. Many, including me, have been on bended knee. The prayers of this nation are a part of the good that has come from the evil of September the 11th, more good than we could ever have predicted. Tragedy has brought forth the courage and the generosity of our people.

...

May God bless you, and may God continue to bless America.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...020502-21.html

President Commemorates National Day of Prayer
Remarks by the President at Reception for the National Day of Prayer
May 2, 2002

...

America is a country of faith. And throughout our history, in times of crisis and in times of calm, Americans have always turned to prayer. And this year's event has special meaning. Since the attacks of September the 11th, millions -- millions -- of Americans of every religious faith have been led to prayer. They have prayed for comfort in a time of sorrow, for courage in a time of fear and for understanding in a time of anger. They have prayed for wisdom in the midst of war and for strength on the journey ahead.

...

Prayer is central to the lives of countless Americans, including Laura's and mine. We have been blessed by the prayers of millions of Americans. We could ask for no greater gift from our countrymen.

I want to thank you all for coming here to the White House to celebrate this special day, for your devotion to prayer, and for your love of this country, and for the Lord who has blessed it for so long.

May God bless you all. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20050505.html

President Commemorates National Day of Prayer at the White House
May 5, 2005

...

And so we pray as a nation for three main reasons. We pray to give thanks for our freedom. Freedom is our birthright because the Creator wrote it into our common human nature. No government can ever take a gift from God away. And in our great country, among the freedoms we celebrate is the freedom to pray as you wish, or not at all. And when we offer thanks to our Creator for the gift of freedom, we acknowledge that it was meant for all men and women, and for all times.

Second, we pray for help in defending the gift of freedom from those who seek to destroy it. Washington prayed at Valley Forge. Franklin Roosevelt sent American troops off to liberate a continent with his D-Day prayer. Today, we pray for the troops who are defending our freedom against determined enemies around the globe. We seek God's blessing for the families they have left behind, and we commit to Heaven's care those brave men and women he has called home.

THE PRESIDENT: Finally, we pray to acknowledge our dependence on the Almighty. Prayerful people understand the limits of human strength. We recognize that our plans are not always God's plans. Yet, we know that a God who created us for freedom is not indifferent to injustice or cruelty or evil. So we ask that our hearts may be aligned with His, and that we may be given the strength to do what is right and help those in need. We who ask for God's help for ourselves, have a particular obligation to care for the least of our brothers and sisters within our midst.

During the funeral for Abraham Lincoln, Bishop Matthew Simpson relayed a story about a minister who told our 16th President that he hoped the Lord was on his side. Lincoln wisely replied that he was more concerned that he was on the side of the Lord, because the Lord was always on the side of right.
Freedom is a divine gift that carries with it a tremendous human responsibility. The National Day of Prayer is a day that we ask that our nation, our leaders and our people use the freedom we have been given wisely. And so we pray as Americans have always prayed: with confidence in God's purpose, with hope for the future, and with the humility to ask God's help to do what is right.

Thank you for coming. May God bless. (Applause.)

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow
OK, I will try to clarify it for you.

I'm afraid that doesn't clarify at all. You've established that Bush is courting Christian voters in some ways that are disturbingly disrespectful of the separation of Church and State, but this does nothing at all to establish a connection between war in Iraq and making the United States a theocracy.

It's not at all logical or skeptical to believe that anything critical of Bush can be proven by anything else that is critical of Bush.

I agree with you that Bush proclaiming a national day of prayer is inapropriate. It's one of the many reasons I don't like him, have not voted for him, and hope the Democrats win (assuming they find a good candidate) in 2008.

However, if you want to demonstrate that war in Iraq somehow promotes making the United States a theocracy, then you need to show how.

Showing Bush establishing and promoting a national day of Prayer doesn't do this, it has nothing to do with Iraq.

[Kopji]

I don't think jihad was ever thought of as only an internal struggle, maybe that's why the concept is so easily hijacked.

This article is interesting, mostly from the current reality of lowered expectations after the invasion:

Quote:

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/okeefe032603.html

As soon as they gain access to northern Iraq, teams will go, Kelly said, with plans of feeding up to 10,000 or more people a day.

"The hope is that as the war front moves and the situation in the outlying areas improves, we'll be able to send mobile teams in.

"Our understanding of relief ministries is that anytime you give a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus you've shared God's love in a real physical way. That also raises the question as to why you did that. When people ask you, you explain that it's because of the love of God that has been poured out into my life and I have a deep desire that you know that same love as well."

Yeah that worked out well.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow
OK, I will try to clarify it for you.

It may have missed your notice but there have been many times when Bush has used his office to further his religious agenda; ever since 9/11 he often links his religion with his war. Here are a few examples to get you started.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010430-2.html

National Day of Prayer, 2001
By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
April 30, 2001

I really don't care for Bush but I find that mindless Bush haters post stuff like this and I feel obligated to espond.

A quick Google finds:

Quote:

The National Day of Prayer is Significant
The National Day of Prayer has great significance for us as a nation. It enables us to recall and to teach the way in which our founding fathers sought the wisdom of God when faced with critical decisions. It stands as a call to us to humbly come before God, seeking His guidance for our leaders and His grace upon us as a people. The unanimous passage of the bill establishing the National Day of Prayer as an annual event, signifies that prayer is as important to our nation today as it was in the beginning.

Like Thanksgiving or Christmas, this day has become a national observance placed on all Hallmark calendars and observed annually across the nation and in Washington, D.C. Last year, local, state and federal observances were held from sunrise in Maine to sunset in Hawaii, uniting Americans from all socio-economic, political and ethnic backgrounds in prayer for our nation. It is estimated that more than two million people attended more than 40,000 observances organized by approximately 40,000 volunteers. At state capitols, county court houses, on the steps of city halls, and in schools, businesses, churches and homes, people stopped their activities and gathered for prayer.

The National Day of Prayer is Ours
The National Day of Prayer belongs to all Americans. It is a day that transcends differences, bringing together citizens from all backgrounds. Mrs. Shirley Dobson, NDP chairman, reminds us: "We have lost many of our freedoms in America because we have been asleep. I feel if we do not become involved and support the annual National Day of Prayer, we could end up forfeiting this freedom, too."



History Summary


1775 - The first Continental Congress called for a National Day of Prayer.
1863 - Abraham Lincoln called for such a day.
1952 - Congress established NDP as an annual event by a joint resolution, signed into law by President Truman.
1988 - The law was amended and signed by President Reagan, designating the NDP as the first Thursday in May.
http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org/history.php

Further, Bush fellating the Christian majority is not terribley surprising. What would you expect? Can you identify one president that did not hold "prayer breakfasts"? You comments would hold a hell of a lot more water if you made some kind of comparison between Bush and other presidents. Absent that it is just bleating.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Mycroft
When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club.

Really? I wonder why this reverend supports terrorism?

'But Reverend Donald Spitz, the director of Pro-Life Virginia, hailed Dr Slepian's killer as "a hero."

"Someone else who loved the babies that he planned on killing stopped the serial murderer," Rev Spitz added. '
from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/201279.stm

Was the murderer a rabid christian? Wgho can tell? Maybe the murderer was a Muslim? Oh my god (non-violent sort) - they're everywhere.

Happy to educate you a little.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by E.J.Armstrong
Really? I wonder why this reverend supports terrorism?

'But Reverend Donald Spitz, the director of Pro-Life Virginia, hailed Dr Slepian's killer as "a hero."

"Someone else who loved the babies that he planned on killing stopped the serial murderer," Rev Spitz added. '
from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/201279.stm

Was the murderer a rabid christian? Wgho can tell? Maybe the murderer was a Muslim? Oh my god (non-violent sort) - they're everywhere.

Happy to educate you a little.

You have established a ratio of 1:250,000,000

Good work, keep at it.

[Kodiak]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mycroft
When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club. These guys go straight for the explosives.

What's telling is how the left gets it's collective knickers in a twist over the former, but defend the latter as a victim of "Western Imperialism"...

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodiak
What's telling is how the left gets it's collective knickers in a twist over the former, but defend the latter as a victim of "Western Imperialism"...

Or ignore it or draw some false comparison.

E.J. is correct in his example of extremist Christian terrorism in that it is an example of extremist Christian terrorism. The problem is he uses this example to draw attention away from extremist Muslim terrorism. The reality is they're both bad, only one is a thousand times more common and a thousand times more likely to target the completely innocent.

[Kopji]

(aside)
The 'National Day of Prayer' is used locally by the religious establishment as an excuse to invite political leaders to a big lunch held by a conglomerate of evangelical churches - and bash Mormons (no one would dare bash Jews but Mormons are ok).

It's stupid and needs to go.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Ed
You have established a ratio of 1:250,000,000

Interestingly, you have failed to provide any support for your figure.

Until you provide some support for your claim we can presumably assume that you just made it up.

Does your, as yet unsupported figure, include the recent terrorist implications in the call to murder a head of state by a fundamantalist right wing Christian preacher?

[E.J.Armstrong]

Quote:

originally posted by Mycroft
Or ignore it or draw some false comparison.

E.J. is correct in his example of extremist Christian terrorism in that it is an example of extremist Christian terrorism. The problem is he uses this example to draw attention away from extremist Muslim terrorism. The reality is they're both bad, only one is a thousand times more common and a thousand times more likely to target the completely innocent.

Any chance of you supporting your figures with facts?

I highlighted the case not to draw attention away from extremist Muslim terrorism as you falsely claim but to simply show that your claim that 'When the Rabid Christians want to create their theocracy, they get out the vote and get the heads talking on the 700 club.' was factually incorrect. If you can't acknowledge that simple fact so be it.

I would suggest that the recent terrorist call for assassination by the right wing fundamantalist preacher, Pat Robertson also shows the false nature of your claim.

Perhaps the terrorist recommendations of this christian preacher supporter of George Bush (In a statement issued Wednesday afternoon, Robertson restated his "100 percent" support for Bush's re-election and said he began and ended his CNN interview "with my warm endorsement and praise of President Bush." from http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...son.bush.iraq/) should be contrasted with the following peaceful Muslim clerics : -

'Osama bin Laden, who is widely assumed to be the force behind the September 11 hijackings in the United States, cites the Koran, Islam's most holy book, as the inspiration for terrorist attacks. But Muslim scholars around the world who are reviled by such actions explain that the Koran preaches peace.' from http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...5_TVkoran.html

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Crossbow
It may have missed your notice but there have been many times when Bush has used his office to further his religious agenda; ever since 9/11 he often links his religion with his war. Here are a few examples to get you started.

Here's another:

Quote:

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.

And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of ...war... may be but a punishment, inflicted upon us, for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole People? We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!

It behooves us then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

Now, therefore, in compliance with the request, and fully concurring in the views of the Senate, I do, by this my proclamation, designate and set apart Thursday, the 30th. day of April, ... as a day of national humiliation, fasting and prayer. And I do hereby request all the People to abstain, on that day, from their ordinary secular pursuits, and to unite, at their several places of public worship and their respective homes, in keeping the day holy to the Lord, and devoted to the humble discharge of the religious duties proper to that solemn occasion.

All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the Nation will be heard on high, and answered with blessings, no less than the pardon of our national sins, and the restoration of our now divided and suffering Country, to its former happy condition of unity and peace.

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this thirtieth day of March ...

I can't find the actual occasion when Bush said this. Is it possible for the President of the United States to be such a religious fanatic? If someone can find out when the president said this, I'd be interested.