New Orlean's school buses

[CBL4]

I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I found this picture of school buses underwater amazing.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lpc21109012015

Between school and transit buses, New Orleans had hundreds (thousands?) of buses. Why were not city buses used to evacuate the city? At the very least, the buses should have been filled with gas and put on high ground to be used after the hurricane.

This was major incompetence on the city's part.

CBL

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I found this picture of school buses underwater amazing.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lpc21109012015

Between school and transit buses, New Orleans had hundreds (thousands?) of buses. Why were not city buses used to evacuate the city? At the very least, the buses should have been filled with gas and put on high ground to be used after the hurricane.

This was major incompetence on the city's part.

CBL

Jeezus H Christ! It's because the people they were evacuating weren't going to school. They were taking them out of the city. Think man!

[CBL4]

I looked a little more and it gets even worse. The school buses that were usable were not being used. Some enterprising people had to steal them to get evacuated.

Quote:

Several school buses were stolen from Orleans Parish, loaded with storm victims and driven out of New Orleans toward Houston in desperate acts to leave the ravaged city, according to reports.
...
An 18-year-old also decided to take matters into his own hands and stole an abandoned city school bus and drove storm victims to Texas, according to a CNN report.

The teen driver, Jabbar Gibson, 18, said he had never driven a bus before but wanted to save people.

http://www.local6.com/news/4929516/detail.html

CBL

[JenJen]

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I found this picture of school buses underwater amazing.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lpc21109012015

Between school and transit buses, New Orleans had hundreds (thousands?) of buses. Why were not city buses used to evacuate the city? At the very least, the buses should have been filled with gas and put on high ground to be used after the hurricane.

This was major incompetence on the city's part.

CBL

I remember seeing it at the very beginning and I'm glad that it didn't escape notice in the long run. It's really hard to pick the one thing that went wrong, now, isn't it? But it doesn't seem to be stopping people from demanding resignations and firings. Gee ... think there are agendas?

Jen
(Pollyanna's negative, cynical alterego)

[JenJen]

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
I looked a little more and it gets even worse. The school buses that were usable were not being used. Some enterprising people had to steal them to get evacuated.


http://www.local6.com/news/4929516/detail.html

CBL

Worse than that ... I heard or read that they were PART OF THE EVACUATION PLAN. And what about the three city boats - two of which were broken down?

Jen

[Manny]

Unfortunately, they were only suggested to be used as part of the evacuation plan. After Hurricane Georges, specifically, in 1998. And again after Ivan last year. (cite)

[shuize]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Jeezus H Christ! It's because the people they were evacuating weren't going to school. They were taking them out of the city. Think man!

Exactly. If they used the busses to evacuate, then how would the children ever get to school? You've gotta think of the children!

[Manny]

Oops, meant to mention:

Clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, the busses should have been used. And equally clearly, local officials had the foresight to use them and chose not to.

However, it's worth noting that using the busses would have alleviated the problems but not solved them. As many people refuse evacuation even now it becomes obvious that New Orleans had a much deeper problem, perhaps one which defies a full solution. There was a deeply ingrained culture of not leaving in the face of hurricanes. I've said before that I believe that some of that results from failure to trust a corrupt government to protect belongings left behind from high crime and I'm still confident that that explains at least some of the problem. But it seems to go deeper than that. If people can't be convinced to leave even now, when all their possessions are gone, there's no food or water, and the very environment is toxic, what can one do to convince them to leave in advance of such conditions when most of the time the advertised tragedy fails to happen? I don't know that anyone has a ready answer to that.

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by manny
As many people refuse evacuation even now it becomes obvious that New Orleans had a much deeper problem, perhaps one which defies a full solution.

Yes, the problem is:

"How can we twist matters to make George Bush responsible for people refusing to leave?"

[JenJen]

Manny

Nice post.

It's hilarious how the Fox and CNN guys are accusing others of playing the "blame game". They were tossing a lot of blame around before they had any idea what was going on. But the general discussion seems to be becoming more reasonable, at least.

Jen

[Manny]

Well I'll be gobsmacked. The things you can find on the internets.

Here's Senator Mary Landrieu's www.nops.k12.la.us/content/board/minutes/2005/bmin060905.pdf+%22orleans+parish%22+nclb+busses&hl =en&client=firefox-a]aunt Phyllis[/url] discussing the very issue of loaning school buses to New Orleans just this past June.

[Metullus]

My mother absolutely refused to leave. I had to go down there and drag her out. And this was 5 days after the storm hit.

Even after I got to her and explained that she had to leave, that she could not stay, that there would be no power, water, or food, she still insisted on staying. I finally told her that I was taking her out if I had to tie her up (not, I assure you, an idle threat) so she could either pack a bag and take something with her or she could travel as is.

There are, I am sure, a great many people who stayed because they had no way of leaving, but this is not, in my experience and estimation, the case with anywhere close to all (or even the overwhelming majority) of the people that stayed. Of the people with whom I had contact during my trip to get my mom, none stayed out of necessity; all stayed by choice. And few of these people had any idea that their very presence, even absent any pressing personal danger, increased the burden on the rescue and recovery effort.

What happened in Orleans Parish is hardly a surprise; it has long been understood that there existed no plan in place to provide for people who ignored evacuation orders. The implication that the Superdome was intended as some sort of "rescue center" is dead wrong - it has always been intended as a shelter-of-last-resort to protect people from the wind, collapsing buildings, and flying debris, only to be used if you could not get out of town, and only during the storm itself. It was a classic BYOB party - bring what you need and sit out the storm. It was never intended as a primary evacuation center or long-term refuge facility.

Lest anyone misunderstand, I love New Orleans. I lived there for 11 years and my parents moved to the area in 1978 and never left. But the reality is that while it calls itself "The City that Care Forgot", it is as accurate to call it "the city that forgot care". The city is culturally and politically incapable of planning for unpleasant events.

I am not surprised that transportation was available but not used to evacuate people - that is the nature of this particular beast.

[Manny]

Thanks for that story, Metullus (and thanks for the kind words, JenJen). Do you have any insight into what causes such a strong attraction to staying? I understand the general impulse not to leave home, but when 9-11 happened and Guiliani said get out of lower Manhattan you could have counted on one hand the number of people who stayed who weren't supposed to. Now in fairness, that's mostly a business district and the apartments down here mostly belong to the rich who could re-create much of their possessions with a Gold Card and an hour at a decent mall. So I guess that makes it easier. But I really don't understand the impulse that makes people's worries about where will they go take precedence over the instinct that staying will kill them.

[JenJen]

Good for you, Metullus - you took good care of your mom.

You'd better duck, though, the PC bomb is probably on the way.

I don't have relatives down there but I have some that I know wouldn't have left. Part stubborn and part distrust of the gov't and/or science. Maybe curiousity, also. Why do people go to the beach during tsunami watches?

Jen

[Luke T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by manny
Thanks for that story, Metullus (and thanks for the kind words, JenJen). Do you have any insight into what causes such a strong attraction to staying? I understand the general impulse not to leave home, but when 9-11 happened and Guiliani said get out of lower Manhattan you could have counted on one hand the number of people who stayed who weren't supposed to. Now in fairness, that's mostly a business district and the apartments down here mostly belong to the rich who could re-create much of their possessions with a Gold Card and an hour at a decent mall. So I guess that makes it easier. But I really don't understand the impulse that makes people's worries about where will they go take precedence over the instinct that staying will kill them.

My first wife's mother lives less than a mile from Mobile Bay. They have been placed under mandatory evacuation many times, and she (ex-wife's mother) refuses to leave every time. Because she won't leave, her daughter (my ex) stays with her, which means my oldest son is hostage there as well.

I have had countless futile phone conversations with my ex mother-in-law during these times. I have even sent the police by their house to inform them of the mandatory evacuation to no avial. I have asked the police to arrest them and drag them to a shelter. I have asked the police to at least take my son out there and put him in a shelter. In all cases, they have told me this is beyond their authority. "BUT HE'S A *********** MINOR!!!!" I have shouted and taken names.

Anyway. My ex mother-in-law says it costs money to leave. And she says the hazard from tornados farther north away from the Gulf is worse than the hazard of the looming hurricane. So logic isn't her strong suit.

And she is afraid if her house is damaged, she won't be allowed back into the area to prevent further damage from rain and such.

They are in a pretty strong house. There is a huge basement they stay in which my ex father-in-law (now deceased) built with his own hands, and his skills were as good as it gets. And that is always a comfort when I am pacing in front of the TV news during these times. I am literally trusting my son's life to his skill. And he hasn't let me down yet.

But here's the thing. This past weekend I'm talking to my son's great Aunt who also stays in that house with them. The subject of the dead in Gulfport, which isn't so far from them, comes up and she says, "Well they should have evacuated."

Talk about your exploding irony meters...

[Metullus]

I have first to confess to that particular sin myself in past years.

I think part of the problem is that folks in Southeast Louisiana are (were) inured to a not insignificant degree to the threat of hurricanes. Every summer the hurricane tracking maps go up at the office and people watch and even make bets on the location of landfall for each storm. Every storm "might be the next Betsy", and, when it fails to deliver a catastrophic punch to the city, there is a sigh of relief and the folks that did evacuate return sheepishly to town feeling more than a little bit foolish. And each time there is just a little more reluctance to leave when the next storm comes.

Some years people would have to evacuate 5 or 6 times in a single season in order to be safe - with no significant storm ever hitting. You might guess that it gets old fast.

So, instead of leaving when the storm turns north towards NO, we wait. For the inevitable turn to the east towards Mississippi and Alabama. For the likely shift towards Texas. For the absolutely certain decrease in intensity.

Why evacuate if you don't have to? I mean, if I'm going to get a day off I'd like to spend it relaxing at home, right?

By the time that it becomes obvious that none of these inevitabilities are going to occur, well, let us say that evacuation, which 24 hours earlier would have been inconvenient, is now hugely problematic, and slow.

And who wants to sit in traffic for 16 hours just to travel 100 miles or so. It’s uncomfortable and boring.

Besides, you see, I'll be just fine in my house. It survived Francine. Or Betsy. Or Bob. Its still here. And I can go a couple of days without electricity.

I'll be fine.

[Renfield]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
Yes, the problem is:

"How can we twist matters to make George Bush responsible for people refusing to leave?"

Bound to be the riught wing mantra in the coming months.

But of course FEMA knows that there are always a lot of people who won't/CAN'T leave in time.

[Metullus]

So, what, exactly, should FEMA have done differently?

I ask this not to pick a fight, but because I have not heard anyone say what should have been done. My mom had rations, ice, and water on Tuesday. People were on the ground in St. Tammany Parish and the Mississippi Gulf Coast within 24 hours.

Thats pretty good IMO.

[JenJen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Renfield

But of course FEMA knows that there are always a lot of people who won't/CAN'T leave in time.

Correction ...

... WON'T/can't leave ...

See? That's part of the point.

Jen

[Renfield]

Quote:

Originally posted by JenJen
Correction ...

... WON'T/can't leave ...

See? That's part of the point.

Jen

Then you have no point.

[Metullus]

I have a great deal of sympathy for those people who could not leave.

I have less sympathy for those who simply would not leave.

People who could leave and did not have put a significant and unnecessary additional load on rescue efforts. The degree to which this has impacted events I cannot as yet judge.

My mother was one of these.

[JenJen]

There are a lot of very poor people in NO and I agree - all of my sympathies are with them. It's sad that those school buses could have removed about 70 passengers per bus (from what I've heard) and didn't.

Jen

[epepke]

Quote:

Originally posted by manny
However, it's worth noting that using the busses would have alleviated the problems but not solved them. As many people refuse evacuation even now it becomes obvious that New Orleans had a much deeper problem, perhaps one which defies a full solution. There was a deeply ingrained culture of not leaving in the face of hurricanes.\

This is true.

However, it does not negate the undeniable fact that there were a whole lot of people around the convention center that were waiting for buses that did not come for a number of days. That is just plain bad. That there have been other, different people who refused to leave does not ameliorate this one iota.

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Renfield
Bound to be the riught wing mantra in the coming months.

But of course FEMA knows that there are always a lot of people who won't/CAN'T leave in time.

You can only pull so many people off of so many train tracks before you wonder where the burden or responsibility really lies, Ren old boy. I think the word's getting out that the buck got passed pretty damn easily from that piece of work they call a mayor. No Guilianis to be found in that town, no sir.

And in case you missed it, I was referring to the "won'ts," as was clear from the post I responded to.

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Metullus
So, what, exactly, should FEMA have done differently?

Well, according a great number of otherwise intelligent people on these fora - they're easy to spot so I won't name names - the one thing FEMA should have been doing is...

...operating under the Kerry administration.

Just no pleasing some people, huh?

[JenJen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Metullus
So, what, exactly, should FEMA have done differently?

There may be a good point to be made that FEMA shouldn't be under homeland security - but I'm not a big fan of DHS. Does DHS substantially change the operation of FEMA? And who really knows what was going on while everybody waited - may have been some valid reasons like ... say ... waiting for the Gov to get off the stick.

I suppose we probably won't know until the investig ... oops ... Senate hearings. Sheesh.

Jen

[Linda]

So all those school buses sitting unused....did they have drivers for them, or had the drivers obeyed the evacuation orders and left town? I'm assuming they weren't going to drive themselves.

[JenJen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Linda
So all those school buses sitting unused....did they have drivers for them, or had the drivers obeyed the evacuation orders and left town? I'm assuming they weren't going to drive themselves.

I'm pretty sure I'd figure out how to drive a lousy bus if I needed to. In fact, some people did steal buses and drive them out - no word on if they got tickets for not being licensed for that type of vehicle but rumors that they were getting grief for stealing.

Jen

[a_unique_person]

I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to? If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either, unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well. As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

[Mycroft]

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to? If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either, unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well. As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

For those that wanted to leave, anywhere else is a good enough destination.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL4
I am sorry if this has been discussed before but I found this picture of school buses underwater amazing.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...lpc21109012015

Between school and transit buses, New Orleans had hundreds (thousands?) of buses. Why were not city buses used to evacuate the city? At the very least, the buses should have been filled with gas and put on high ground to be used after the hurricane.

This was major incompetence on the city's part.

CBL

You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better? On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds. The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

[Manny]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better?

People were driving those buses every morning and again every afternoon. People sufficiently proficient that the residents of New Orleans trusted them with their children 360 times a year plus field trips.

[Ed]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better? On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds. The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

This is like a wierd Monty Python skit. In the face of disaster you would ask if a person has a permit?

[Jocko]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
You have a supply of drivers with class D commercial license or better?

They're not tough to drive. Takes all of 15 minutes to get used to the handling, shifting and braking (air brakes rock, btw). I drove several bus types myself while working through college. The licensing was a formality.

Quote:

On top of that school buses do not handle well in high winds.

They only needed 5-6 hours to get clear of the storm's path, and there was plenty of warning. Would have been a lot easier if it didn't take Bush calling Blanco calling Nagin to actually CALL for an evacuation, natch, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote:

The suggestion that random citerzens drive the buses would be great if it wasn't for the fact that Jabbar Gibson got lucky. Even people with the right training flip these busses 1 . with the length opf time it was takeing to get out og the city it is questionable they would have made it to saftey before the storm hit.

Yes, much better to squat in your attic as the floodwaters slowly choke the life out of you and your family. Much safer than actually getting in a city vehicle out of town, if any of those vehicles had been made available... which they weren't. The total number of wasted, unused and now ruined vehicles is somewhere in the neighborhood of 350, nears as I can see.

[Jocko]

Mayor Nagin has really seized the bull by the horns. He's issued a mandatory evacuation edict, and only 11 days too late.

Quote:

Nagin said he wanted everyone out of the city "because it's a health risk."

Thank heavens that wiser heads have prevailed.

[Cylinder]

State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan Supplement 1C - Louisiana Shelter Operations Plan

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I think a part of the problem is where do you evacuate them to?

From the Section I Summary:

Quote:

The overall strategy for dealing with hurricane emergencies is to evacuate as much of the at-risk population as possible from the path of the storm and relocate them to a place of relative safety outside of the projected high water mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds.

Emphasis is mine. Above sea level would have been a good place to start.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
If you are too poor, infirm, etc, to drive, you probably won't have anywhere to stay if you get driven out either...

Quoting Section II - Purpose:

Quote:

It is the intent of this plan to establish guidelines for the direction, control and coordination for providing shelter, food, and other essential support services for people who have relocated from their normal residences due to the threat posed by a
hurricane along the coast.

Too poor or infirm to drive?

Quote:

However, school and municipal buses and, where available, specialized vehicles will be used to transport those hurricane evacuees who do not have transportation.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
...unless the superdomes, shools, etc, are set up outside Loisiana for every hurricane warning evacuation as well.

They wouldn't have to be evacuated "outside Louisiana." You could be sheltered, as was the plan, further inland and (just for kicks) above sea level. Public infrastructure is supposed to be set up for every hurricane warning (actually every hurricane threat, which comes before the actual NWS warning.) Quoting Section III - Concept of Operations:

Quote:

When a hurricane enters or forms in the Gulf of Mexico, it is perceived as a threat to the Louisiana coast area. As the danger from the hurricane requires the initiation of emergency actions, the State Office of Emergency Preparedness and each parish in Sector D will activate Emergency Operations Centers (EOCs) and declare a state of emergency. The State and parishes will commence planned emergency operations and coordinate their actions, including activating and maintaining all means of communications. All Shelter Task Force Area Parish EOCs will go to a stand-by status.

A very important point to make in regards to your comment is that the text in bold above is also in bold in the actual plan. The specific duties for shelter and risk parishes can be found in that document.

Quote:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
As can be seen now, a million or more people being evacuated every time there is a hurricane is a disaster all of itself.

You misunderstand the situation. The chaos is a result of sheltering inside the disaster zone. According to the plan, these are refuges - not shelters.

Quote:

Local facilities, pre-identified for use as last resort refuges, will be available when needed. These facilities are not intended to be shelters, but rather, facilities that are believed to be reasonably safe from the principle damaging effects of hurricanes without the amenities of a shelter.

[BPSCG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
Mayor Nagin has really seized the bull by the horns. He's issued a mandatory evacuation edict, and only 11 days too late.

Is this mandatory evacuation order more mandatory than the first mandatory evacuation order?

Me confused...

[claimee]

Quote:

As of Wednesday morning, some 60,000 active duty and National Guard forces were on the ground or in ships in the affected areas, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said.

Officials stressed, however, that it's the job of the police to force evacuations if and when that time comes.

Police Capt. Marlon Defillo said of the possible forced removal of citizens: "That would be a P.R. nightmare for us. That's an absolute last resort."

In the meantime, "We will continue the search-and-rescue" mission, said Lt. Gen. Joseph Inge, deputy chief of Northern Command, speaking at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado.

Fox News, September 07, 2005

[Tmy]

Ummm where the hell do you bus them too??? theres a hurricane coming, you dont exactly want people riding out the storm in a school bus!

The Superdome did its job, it protected people from the storm.

[Cylinder]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tmy
Ummm where the hell do you bus them too??? theres a hurricane coming, you dont exactly want people riding out the storm in a school bus!

The Superdome did its job, it protected people from the storm.

According to the evacuation plan:

Quote:

The overall strategy for dealing with hurricane emergencies is to evacuate as much of the at-risk population as possible from the path of the storm and relocate them to a place of relative safety outside of the projected high water mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds.

The shelter network had already been mobilized by Gov. Blanco.

The plan required a 72-hour lead time to complete evacuation before the onset of gale force winds:

Quote:

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.