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Old 14th September 2005, 03:23 PM   #1
thaiboxerken
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Chi to be finally shown to exist

I convinced some bleever to actually write the JREF and take the challenge.

My prediction is that this person will fail to define what "chi" is or try to define chi as "breathing" or something to that effect.

Quote:
Hello,

My name is Nathan ***** and I am a practitioner of Wing Chun Kung Fu from the Duncan Leung/Brian Edwards lineage. I am currently embroiled in a debate with some fellow martial artists about the realities of what the Chinese refer to as Qi or Chi. We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists.

Your $1 million challenge states that it is for any paranormal, ocult, or supernatural occurences. Chi is none of these although some might argue it is psudoscientific. There has been much research by Western Scientists and the Chinese Government over the years regarding this subject. There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi. What we would like is a test that would be scientific and completely unbiased in order to settle this once and for all. I would like to know before I apply for the preliminary tests whether or not proving the existence of Qi will qualify for your challenge or if it has already been sufficiently proven by science. The following website: http://www.chicenter.com/qigongScience.htm has some information on Qigong. Does Chi Exist?

Thank you for your time,
-Nathan ***** (name protected)

YES!!! If you can prove that "CHI" exists, absolutely, that would qualify for the JREF Challenge, and we would LOVE to see such a test take place.
The problem is that what YOU believe would prove it, may not truly prove anything. Most such claims are made by persons who require little if any real evidence.
But you say you want a scientific test, which suggests that you may the exception to this trend amongst Chi practitioners and "believers" in general.
I suggest that you read the Challenge rules, fill out a Challenge application, and send it here, to my attention, at your earliest convenience. Just follow the rules, and I'll email you shortly after receiving your application.

KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.
Email: kramer@randi.org
JREF Website: www.randi.org

Kramer, if this guy wins, do I get affiliate proceeds for forwarding him to the JREF?
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Old 14th September 2005, 03:35 PM   #2
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CHI exists.

It's a big city right next to LAKE MICH. in ILL.
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Old 14th September 2005, 03:39 PM   #3
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Okay, enough with the wisecracks. I agree, that the definition is going to be the sticking point. Moreover, the question of existence is not something that is determined by vote.
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Old 14th September 2005, 04:07 PM   #4
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Did you guys read the website he linked? It gives us our definition for him to use. And I quote, with emphasis added:

Quote:
Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.They believe that the paradoxes, odds, and probabilities, and complementary nature of the reality, the dynamic cosmic dance of the energy and matter, role of consciousness, big bang, dynamic structure of chaos, different dimension, in-separability or undividable wholeness etc., have all been in the writings of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Qigong for thousands of years. They point out that the Quantum Mechanics is merely a re-discovery of the ages old Eastern Wisdom. The theory created by ancient sages and teachers is based on their experiences of qigong practice. It has endured the test of time and is making a tremendous resurgence as a new science at the threshold of the new century. This theory continues to develop and become profoundly understood as qigong practice progresses to deeper levels in the process of becoming more prevalent in our everyday lives.

The Integral Theory of Oneness is not only the theoretical foundation of the school of qigong, it is also the essence of Chinese culture. It also provides a foundation for a quantum model for the holistic mind-body connection. Dr. Deepak Chopra, an inspiring pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine, has suggested that the human body is controlled by a network of intelligence grounded in quantum reality. This intelligence lies deep enough to change the basic patterns that design our physiology. His concept of the quantum mechanical human body ethos the model widely accepted in the Qigong field: the intelligence that creates and maintains the connection between the mind and body, between thought and physical manifestation is the unified field of consciousness and vital force, called chi. Chi, the mediator between mind and body, is nothing but a quantum phenomena. In other words, Primal Chi is the unifying field of matter, energy and consciousness.
There we go. Chi is a unifying field of force that combines matter, energy, and a third substance called consciousness, all of which HAVE to be quantifiable and measurable in order to be scientific. Prima facie, he fails, beause consciousness is not measurable, and hence any field which can unify with matter/energy is unquantifiable as well. Chi is also (paradoxically) described as the unified field of consciousness and "vital force." Sounds like old-fashioned vitalism to me, which is soundly refuted as non-scientific. Also, it calls chi a "quantum phenomena," which must mean that there are very small, probably massless particles called "chi-ons" which represent and carry this energy around, yet remain undetectable by modern science and serve no place in particle theory models.

Thus, a priori, we can establish his awful failure at a demonstration of chi without the need to recourse to experimentation. Any effect he could produce as an empirical effect of "chi" is complete BS because there is good reason to believe such a force is logically impossible.
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Old 14th September 2005, 04:53 PM   #5
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Well, he doesn't have to demonstrate real chi at all, does he?

If he demonstrates a so-called chi ability he wins even if it was all accomplished with psychokinesis.

In martial arts chi can save someone from an attack by deflecting someone's ability to strike.

Maybe he could do a demonstration by knocking out an angry hamster without touching it. It would only be considered cruel if he could do it.

Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?
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Old 15th September 2005, 07:07 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atlas
...
Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it?
But the dog would have to be really angry. Otherwise it won't work.
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Old 15th September 2005, 07:19 AM   #7
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I like the wording Nathan uses:
Quote:
There seem to be as many studies lending credibility to Chi as there are studies trying to discredit Chi.
Although he also says "We are trying to establish whether or not "Chi" actually exists," it's implicit here that he thinks there have been studies successfully lending credibility to the idea. The second category of studies, on the other hand, merely try to discredit it.
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Old 15th September 2005, 08:14 AM   #8
LordoftheLeftHand
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Quote:
from the website in question

Since the last decade or so, some prominent scientists, such as David Bohm and Niels Bohr, have come to see a relationship between their work and the ideas behind some Eastern philosophy.
Do they mean Niels Bohr from Copenhagen who died in 1962?

If so I guess "Chi" allows you to talk to the dead!

LLH
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Old 15th September 2005, 10:21 AM   #9
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I love the "lends credibility" phrase.

In other words, the study did nothing to prove the "woo de jour".

Simply having a "scientific" study that doesn't discredit the topic gives them something to point to and say "See we have studies!"
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Old 15th September 2005, 12:20 PM   #10
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I presume he's going to demonstrate Chi in action, rather than whip something quantifiable up in the lab or pull it out from under a microscope. By that I mean he's probably going to try and make people wobble at a distance or make them uncomfortable with long, hard stares.

I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!
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Old 15th September 2005, 12:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there!


I practice and teach Tai Chi (and Bagua, and Hsing-i), and I couldn't agree more. Most Tai Chi being taught today is nothing more than new age woo woo.
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Old 15th September 2005, 01:02 PM   #12
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I had to quit Tai Chi for the same reason - but I kept giggling when they started talking like that, and I think I was distracting the class.

Lord beat me to it - Bohr's been dead for a while. Maybe they meant that they have seen their work 'validated' in the Eastern Philosophy - figuratively speaking? In which case, they may have well claimed other scientists as well, since they didn't mean that the scientists supported the claims. But it was a rather misleading way of putting it. I guess that's the point.

More to THE point, I can't think of a protocal that would allow them to demonstrate 'chi' effectively, besides the stuff Yellow Bamboo already tried.
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Old 15th September 2005, 01:12 PM   #13
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What's interesting is that I hear all kinds of spectacular claims about Chi that would make great demonstrations, but when demonstrated, it's always something subtle.
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Old 15th September 2005, 01:15 PM   #14
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The ones I love are those that say "I can do this", and then when they fail, say "Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening."
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Old 15th September 2005, 01:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
*snip*
"Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening."
That, I regret to say, is the story of my life...
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Old 15th September 2005, 04:37 PM   #16
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I'd be impressd by a martial artist using chi to break only the third brick in a stack of five. I'm pretty sure Quai Chang Cain could do it. He could also levitate but only during meditation.

I kinda miss that tv show.
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Old 15th September 2005, 09:32 PM   #17
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Oh yeah, I can fa-jing chi out my perineal chakra! Proof? I'll light it...
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Old 15th September 2005, 09:44 PM   #18
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What's happening with the challenge Nathan?
I don't see much followup lately.

As you suggested I went to the chi website and read all the gumph, all the usual claims, and all the usual woo talk.
It cerainly did not explain what chi was, in any understandable english terms.
So whats new?

Of course the big problem for Nathan is how to define the test.
The website implies (and says using many various woo words) that chi is some sort of 'energy' that has some sort of 'effect'.

OK, so design a simple test that measures that 'energy', and that clearly shows that that 'energy' is not from some other known source.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so design a simple test that measures the 'effect' of the chi,
and clearly shows that the 'effect' is not from some other known source. (btw, as we all know this is exactly the same as the previous test, but just uses some different words).

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

OK, so rather than me try to help you design a test, why don't you cogitate about the supposed chi 'enegy' and its 'effect'; and then identify to yourself how you might measure that; and then design a simple test to measure it. And then collect the million dollars.

oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that?

So what you are probably saying is that you cannot measure it.
And to paraphrase the famous words of someone whos name I cannot remember just now "If you cannot measure it then it does not exist".

Now, what else is new in the land of chi?
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Old 16th September 2005, 07:04 AM   #19
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Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.
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Old 16th September 2005, 07:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragn
Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.
So it's using actual physical effects rather than "Chi?"
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Old 16th September 2005, 07:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo
So it's using actual physical effects rather than "Chi?"
I'm not a master of Tai-chi, but having taken classes in it, its probably more physical effects than some unknown quantity of Chi. Chi or Ki is taught in every martial arts as something related to improving your breathing technique while executing moves. Chi itself means Air. So It could be nothing more than breath control.

I don't know who first atributed mystical powers to Chi but Im sure when it first started in martial arts it was intended as a way to teach students how to control their breathing.

If someone asked me to show them Chi exists, I would just laugh and breath out.
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Old 16th September 2005, 08:37 AM   #22
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Actually, it's more than muscle memory, but I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion of it here. Suffice to say it's purely physical, pretty sophisticated, hard to learn to do and you can do some pretty surprising things with it.

Breathing is a part of it, but again, there's a valid physical reason behind it.
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Old 16th September 2005, 09:25 AM   #23
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To all UKers here who get BBC3 - Chi was demontsrated for half an hour on Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves all the usual stuff - hard chi put into hands to crack blocks etc etc.

However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break)

So 'Light Chi' is very testable with a resonably accurate set of bathroom scales!

I must say this program was awful, it included a japanese 'shouter' who could disable swordsmen by shouting (and ring bells), a mixture of bad kung-fu, bad parlour magic tricks and some bizare penis weight lifting (Dick-Chi?)
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Old 16th September 2005, 09:30 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by pjh
However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break)
Demonstrating only the fact that eggshells are stronger than most people realise...

I imagine he stood on them all at the same time?
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Old 16th September 2005, 10:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by pjh
However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break)

So 'Light Chi' is very testable with a resonably accurate set of bathroom scales!
Exactly what I was thinking when you described the egg standing.

"So, you can make yourself actually lighter can you? That should be easy to demonstrate in a slightly more scientific and accurate way than standing on eggs. Wait come back..."
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Old 16th September 2005, 01:06 PM   #26
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Obviously the Flying Spaghetti Monster lifted him up with His invisible noodly appendages... a miracle! See! the FSM exists!
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Old 16th September 2005, 01:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragn
Chi or Ki is taught in every martial arts as something related to improving your breathing technique while executing moves.
Not true at all.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 16th September 2005, 09:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Not true at all.
Seconded. Chi/qi/ki (the spelling depends on the nationality) is always taught as a vitalistic "life energy" that subsumes all things, and that proper health, strength and flexibility is a direct function of balance and alignment of this energy.

And not all martial arts talk about this. By definition, these are Sino-Japanese terms and so therefore their use is limited mostly to Sino-Japanese forms, at least in traditional arts. New Age MA nuts who develop their own "über-deadly" system often incorporate the mystical powers of chi into their system to give it that "Far East" mystique.
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Old 17th September 2005, 12:20 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by pjh
...and some bizare penis weight lifting (Dick-Chi?)
No, a real cock-up.
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Old 17th September 2005, 04:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lane
Chi/qi/ki (the spelling depends on the nationality) is always taught as a vitalistic "life energy" that subsumes all things, and that proper health, strength and flexibility is a direct function of balance and alignment of this energy.
Sorry. Not true. Some use the qi paradigm to describe fundamental physical aspects of their art; no mystical stuff involved.

Qi is a complex topic in a sense because there are so many different contextual uses for it. In terms of MA, some use it as life energy, some use it as breath control, and some use it as a paradigm for specific physical techniques. The last one is the one I've been lucky enough to gain understanding of, and - to be fair - it's the minority of people who present it this way.
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Old 17th September 2005, 05:06 AM   #31
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Chi, in the most universally known sense of the word, it is The Force(tm). It is the all encompassing mystical energy "which surrounds us, binds us, flows through us". It is meant to be the energy created by life, the energy that flows through all life and all objects around us. People with enough training, Jedis and Tai Chi masters for example, can learn to channel and focus this energy to perform feats impossible to normal humans. Or not.

Chi, in all the martial arts I've encountered it in at least, is a kind of placebo that gets the practitioner in the correct state of mind to do slightly dumb things like punch hard materials or attempt painful manouevers. It is psychology in action, not physics. The fact that it has never been measured, never been detected, never been seen to cause any real physical effect should be enough to stop people from convincing themselves they have superhuman powers.
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Old 17th September 2005, 05:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
Sorry. Not true. Some use the qi paradigm to describe fundamental physical aspects of their art; no mystical stuff involved.

Qi is a complex topic in a sense because there are so many different contextual uses for it. In terms of MA, some use it as life energy, some use it as breath control, and some use it as a paradigm for specific physical techniques. The last one is the one I've been lucky enough to gain understanding of, and - to be fair - it's the minority of people who present it this way.
Using the word "ki" to mean "breath control" is definitely wrong; breath control is "chosoku".
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Old 17th September 2005, 05:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
Chi, in the most universally known sense of the word, it is The Force(tm). It is the all encompassing mystical energy "which surrounds us, binds us, flows through us". It is meant to be the energy created by life, the energy that flows through all life and all objects around us. People with enough training, Jedis and Tai Chi masters for example, can learn to channel and focus this energy to perform feats impossible to normal humans. Or not.

Chi, in all the martial arts I've encountered it in at least, is a kind of placebo that gets the practitioner in the correct state of mind to do slightly dumb things like punch hard materials or attempt painful manouevers. It is psychology in action, not physics. The fact that it has never been measured, never been detected, never been seen to cause any real physical effect should be enough to stop people from convincing themselves they have superhuman powers.
I agree that's true in most cases, and "the force" concept is utterly bogus... it's not real, and it drives me nuts that people teach that crap. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm sorry; I don't mean to be mysterious, I just don't want to get into a long, difficult discussion of something very hard to explain in words.

Qi - as I mean it - isn't all that exotic, although you can do some pretty surprising things with it and learning how to use your body to "manifest" it takes a lot of hard work. (It's pretty counter-intuitive.) And I'm no master or anything; I can demonstrate some very basic skills with this stuff, but I've met and worked out with people who are are a lot more skilled than I'll ever be.
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Old 17th September 2005, 05:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Usign the word "ki" to mean "breath control" is definitely wrong; breath control is "chosoku".
No argument. I'm not saying I agree with how some people use it; just that they use it that way.
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Old 17th September 2005, 07:01 PM   #35
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chi effect

i would assume that most chi, ki, gi practitioners to be able to have control of this energy? and i think they also could focus? it in away so the temperature of cirtain parts or all, of the body can be fluctuated at will. if this is possible. would this count as somehing extraordinary? viable enough ability to pass as an ability worthy of JREF challange?

if so, to what degree does the temperature has to fluctuate?


practicing chi, ki, gi is very very good for anyone's body and mind, if done right. and because the body and mind goes through some changes during the practice, many people do experience strange and mystical often seemingly supernatural happenings. are these factual, who is to say... as we all know, even the so called masters arent? able to prove it. or are they just not interested in proving it. anyway...

i would appreciate the forum member's help in determaining a test protocal.

thanks
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Old 17th September 2005, 07:03 PM   #36
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10001, it's not up to us. Heck, we still don't know what Nathan's definition of Qi is, or if Nathan has submitted an application. At any rate, Kramer, Randi and Nathan can come up with a protocol, if Nathan is serious about this challenge.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 17th September 2005, 08:28 PM   #37
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Re: chi effect

Quote:
Originally posted by 10001
are these factual, who is to say... as we all know, even the so called masters arent? able to prove it.
I'll say it -- they're not factual. They can't be. Positing the existence of chi is a metaphysical proposition, and therefore not decidable by rational science. Insofar was we are able to naturalistically explain ALL of the phenomena that chi is reported to explain, recourse to any explanation involving chi is unparsimonious. If the proposition of chi's existence is unable to be falsified (that is, can you think of a single case which would cause a "chi master" to abandon his belief in chi's existence?), then chi is unscientific and any scientific test to determine its validity will necessarily fail.
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Old 18th September 2005, 02:48 AM   #38
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When asking what the status of the challenge is, here is the email reply i recieved.

Working on it. First I need someone who has done extensive internal training. My Kung Fu sifu from NC or another sifu with good credentials. I would like this to be scientific. That's the only way we are going to convince you "caring skeptics." I know I have been hit with a Chi amplified punch enough times to believe in it.

-Nathan Grant
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 18th September 2005, 04:35 AM   #39
Kenny 10 Bellys
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Re: chi effect

Quote:
Originally posted by 10001
i would assume that most chi, ki, gi practitioners to be able to have control of this energy? and i think they also could focus? it in away so the temperature of cirtain parts or all, of the body can be fluctuated at will. if this is possible. would this count as somehing extraordinary? viable enough ability to pass as an ability worthy of JREF challange?

if so, to what degree does the temperature has to fluctuate?
No good. Plenty of people are able to exert some control over their body temperature using a sort of bio-feedback technique. There are little Tibetan monks who spend their days sitting their in the cold doing nothing but raising their body temperatures. Now if it was a case of "flame on!" I'd be impressed.

As for 'Chi amplified punches' I would again be very skeptical that this would make a decent test of Chi and not simply good technique and training. If there are people claiming to be able to make themselves lighter, to affect people at a distance, to leap tall buildings in a single bound, etc then they qould certainly be classified as paranormal effects of Chi and be worth testing. "He hit me very hard" is not a scientific test of The Force(tm).
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Old 18th September 2005, 04:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by thaiboxerken
When asking what the status of the challenge is, here is the email reply i recieved.

Working on it. First I need someone who has done extensive internal training. My Kung Fu sifu from NC or another sifu with good credentials. I would like this to be scientific. That's the only way we are going to convince you "caring skeptics." I know I have been hit with a Chi amplified punch enough times to believe in it.

-Nathan Grant
Gentleman at Arms
Aha, a control experiment begins to take shape. Thaiboxerken, you must use your Thai curry amplified punches and kicks as a control. Plus, you get to hit this guy as hard as you can.
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