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14th September 2005, 03:23 PM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Chi to be finally shown to exist
I convinced some bleever to actually write the JREF and take the challenge.
My prediction is that this person will fail to define what "chi" is or try to define chi as "breathing" or something to that effect.
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Kramer, if this guy wins, do I get affiliate proceeds for forwarding him to the JREF? |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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14th September 2005, 03:35 PM | #2 |
Penultimate Amazing
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CHI exists.
It's a big city right next to LAKE MICH. in ILL. |
14th September 2005, 03:39 PM | #3 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Okay, enough with the wisecracks. I agree, that the definition is going to be the sticking point. Moreover, the question of existence is not something that is determined by vote.
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14th September 2005, 04:07 PM | #4 |
New Blood
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Did you guys read the website he linked? It gives us our definition for him to use. And I quote, with emphasis added:
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Thus, a priori, we can establish his awful failure at a demonstration of chi without the need to recourse to experimentation. Any effect he could produce as an empirical effect of "chi" is complete BS because there is good reason to believe such a force is logically impossible. |
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14th September 2005, 04:53 PM | #5 |
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Well, he doesn't have to demonstrate real chi at all, does he?
If he demonstrates a so-called chi ability he wins even if it was all accomplished with psychokinesis. In martial arts chi can save someone from an attack by deflecting someone's ability to strike. Maybe he could do a demonstration by knocking out an angry hamster without touching it. It would only be considered cruel if he could do it. Or put some bars between him and an angry dog. The bars would protect him but if he could knock the dog down that would prove paranormality, wouldn't it? |
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This, above all: to thine own self be true. (Polonius to Laertes) Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. - (Benford's law of controversy) |
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15th September 2005, 07:07 AM | #6 |
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15th September 2005, 07:19 AM | #7 |
Mostly harmless
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I like the wording Nathan uses:
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15th September 2005, 08:14 AM | #8 |
Graduate Poster
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Quote:
If so I guess "Chi" allows you to talk to the dead! LLH |
15th September 2005, 10:21 AM | #9 |
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I love the "lends credibility" phrase.
In other words, the study did nothing to prove the "woo de jour". Simply having a "scientific" study that doesn't discredit the topic gives them something to point to and say "See we have studies!" |
15th September 2005, 12:20 PM | #10 |
Critical Thinker
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I presume he's going to demonstrate Chi in action, rather than whip something quantifiable up in the lab or pull it out from under a microscope. By that I mean he's probably going to try and make people wobble at a distance or make them uncomfortable with long, hard stares.
I too have spent several years learning Kung Fu and other martial arts systems, and my experience of Chi is that it makes my mouth drop and causes me to stop going to Tai Chi classes. When the instructor begins to talk to beginners and elderly housewifes like he has Jedi abilities I gape and then run away, perhaps a demonstrable Chi power right there! |
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15th September 2005, 12:52 PM | #11 |
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Quote:
I practice and teach Tai Chi (and Bagua, and Hsing-i), and I couldn't agree more. Most Tai Chi being taught today is nothing more than new age woo woo. |
15th September 2005, 01:02 PM | #12 |
Critical Thinker
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I had to quit Tai Chi for the same reason - but I kept giggling when they started talking like that, and I think I was distracting the class.
Lord beat me to it - Bohr's been dead for a while. Maybe they meant that they have seen their work 'validated' in the Eastern Philosophy - figuratively speaking? In which case, they may have well claimed other scientists as well, since they didn't mean that the scientists supported the claims. But it was a rather misleading way of putting it. I guess that's the point. More to THE point, I can't think of a protocal that would allow them to demonstrate 'chi' effectively, besides the stuff Yellow Bamboo already tried. |
15th September 2005, 01:12 PM | #13 |
Penultimate Amazing
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What's interesting is that I hear all kinds of spectacular claims about Chi that would make great demonstrations, but when demonstrated, it's always something subtle.
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15th September 2005, 01:15 PM | #14 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The ones I love are those that say "I can do this", and then when they fail, say "Your chi isn't advanced enough to sense what's happening."
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15th September 2005, 01:20 PM | #15 |
Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem
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15th September 2005, 04:37 PM | #16 |
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I'd be impressd by a martial artist using chi to break only the third brick in a stack of five. I'm pretty sure Quai Chang Cain could do it. He could also levitate but only during meditation.
I kinda miss that tv show. |
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This, above all: to thine own self be true. (Polonius to Laertes) Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. - (Benford's law of controversy) |
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15th September 2005, 09:44 PM | #18 |
Muse
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What's happening with the challenge Nathan?
I don't see much followup lately. As you suggested I went to the chi website and read all the gumph, all the usual claims, and all the usual woo talk. It cerainly did not explain what chi was, in any understandable english terms. So whats new? Of course the big problem for Nathan is how to define the test. The website implies (and says using many various woo words) that chi is some sort of 'energy' that has some sort of 'effect'. OK, so design a simple test that measures that 'energy', and that clearly shows that that 'energy' is not from some other known source. oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that? OK, so design a simple test that measures the 'effect' of the chi, and clearly shows that the 'effect' is not from some other known source. (btw, as we all know this is exactly the same as the previous test, but just uses some different words). oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that? OK, so rather than me try to help you design a test, why don't you cogitate about the supposed chi 'enegy' and its 'effect'; and then identify to yourself how you might measure that; and then design a simple test to measure it. And then collect the million dollars. oh, did i hear you say that you cannot measure chi like that? So what you are probably saying is that you cannot measure it. And to paraphrase the famous words of someone whos name I cannot remember just now "If you cannot measure it then it does not exist". Now, what else is new in the land of chi? |
16th September 2005, 07:04 AM | #19 |
Critical Thinker
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Btw, alot of the mumbo-jumbo in Tai-chi do have some basis in physical effects. The slow movements is to help develop muscle memory. The position of the hands fingers etc in the forms helps reduce injury during the sessions.
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16th September 2005, 07:06 AM | #20 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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16th September 2005, 07:45 AM | #21 |
Critical Thinker
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Quote:
I don't know who first atributed mystical powers to Chi but Im sure when it first started in martial arts it was intended as a way to teach students how to control their breathing. If someone asked me to show them Chi exists, I would just laugh and breath out. |
16th September 2005, 08:37 AM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, it's more than muscle memory, but I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion of it here. Suffice to say it's purely physical, pretty sophisticated, hard to learn to do and you can do some pretty surprising things with it.
Breathing is a part of it, but again, there's a valid physical reason behind it. |
16th September 2005, 09:25 AM | #23 |
Thinker
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To all UKers here who get BBC3 - Chi was demontsrated for half an hour on Mind, Body and Kick Ass Moves all the usual stuff - hard chi put into hands to crack blocks etc etc.
However one Chi master demonstrated 'Light Chi' (Normally used to allow him jump higher), but he demonstrated it by standing on a couple of dozen eggs (which amazingly did not break) So 'Light Chi' is very testable with a resonably accurate set of bathroom scales! I must say this program was awful, it included a japanese 'shouter' who could disable swordsmen by shouting (and ring bells), a mixture of bad kung-fu, bad parlour magic tricks and some bizare penis weight lifting (Dick-Chi?) |
16th September 2005, 09:30 AM | #24 |
Mostly harmless
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Quote:
I imagine he stood on them all at the same time? |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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16th September 2005, 10:09 AM | #25 |
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"So, you can make yourself actually lighter can you? That should be easy to demonstrate in a slightly more scientific and accurate way than standing on eggs. Wait come back..." |
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16th September 2005, 01:06 PM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Obviously the Flying Spaghetti Monster lifted him up with His invisible noodly appendages... a miracle! See! the FSM exists!
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16th September 2005, 01:25 PM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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16th September 2005, 09:14 PM | #28 |
New Blood
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And not all martial arts talk about this. By definition, these are Sino-Japanese terms and so therefore their use is limited mostly to Sino-Japanese forms, at least in traditional arts. New Age MA nuts who develop their own "über-deadly" system often incorporate the mystical powers of chi into their system to give it that "Far East" mystique. |
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17th September 2005, 12:20 AM | #29 |
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Tony Kehoe "Most people, I believe, think that you need a God to explain the existence of the world, and especially the existence of life. They are wrong, but our education system is such that many people don't know it. "--Richard Dawkins |
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17th September 2005, 04:13 AM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
Qi is a complex topic in a sense because there are so many different contextual uses for it. In terms of MA, some use it as life energy, some use it as breath control, and some use it as a paradigm for specific physical techniques. The last one is the one I've been lucky enough to gain understanding of, and - to be fair - it's the minority of people who present it this way. |
17th September 2005, 05:06 AM | #31 |
Critical Thinker
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Chi, in the most universally known sense of the word, it is The Force(tm). It is the all encompassing mystical energy "which surrounds us, binds us, flows through us". It is meant to be the energy created by life, the energy that flows through all life and all objects around us. People with enough training, Jedis and Tai Chi masters for example, can learn to channel and focus this energy to perform feats impossible to normal humans. Or not.
Chi, in all the martial arts I've encountered it in at least, is a kind of placebo that gets the practitioner in the correct state of mind to do slightly dumb things like punch hard materials or attempt painful manouevers. It is psychology in action, not physics. The fact that it has never been measured, never been detected, never been seen to cause any real physical effect should be enough to stop people from convincing themselves they have superhuman powers. |
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17th September 2005, 05:14 AM | #32 |
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Tony Kehoe "Most people, I believe, think that you need a God to explain the existence of the world, and especially the existence of life. They are wrong, but our education system is such that many people don't know it. "--Richard Dawkins |
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17th September 2005, 05:21 AM | #33 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
Qi - as I mean it - isn't all that exotic, although you can do some pretty surprising things with it and learning how to use your body to "manifest" it takes a lot of hard work. (It's pretty counter-intuitive.) And I'm no master or anything; I can demonstrate some very basic skills with this stuff, but I've met and worked out with people who are are a lot more skilled than I'll ever be. |
17th September 2005, 05:23 AM | #34 |
Penultimate Amazing
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17th September 2005, 07:01 PM | #35 |
Thinker
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chi effect
i would assume that most chi, ki, gi practitioners to be able to have control of this energy? and i think they also could focus? it in away so the temperature of cirtain parts or all, of the body can be fluctuated at will. if this is possible. would this count as somehing extraordinary? viable enough ability to pass as an ability worthy of JREF challange?
if so, to what degree does the temperature has to fluctuate? practicing chi, ki, gi is very very good for anyone's body and mind, if done right. and because the body and mind goes through some changes during the practice, many people do experience strange and mystical often seemingly supernatural happenings. are these factual, who is to say... as we all know, even the so called masters arent? able to prove it. or are they just not interested in proving it. anyway... i would appreciate the forum member's help in determaining a test protocal. thanks |
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everything is possible that is why we are. and yet "nothing" also seems possible. because it? is also everything... and everywhere... just think of me as someone who would have saved the world... but could not save him self... in the 'end' and the 'begining' it is 'you' that matters. Because of you i am me. Because of you i am also not me. i think of you as someone who would have saved the world(and me)... but could not save her/him self. |
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17th September 2005, 07:03 PM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
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10001, it's not up to us. Heck, we still don't know what Nathan's definition of Qi is, or if Nathan has submitted an application. At any rate, Kramer, Randi and Nathan can come up with a protocol, if Nathan is serious about this challenge.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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17th September 2005, 08:28 PM | #37 |
New Blood
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Re: chi effect
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18th September 2005, 02:48 AM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
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When asking what the status of the challenge is, here is the email reply i recieved.
Working on it. First I need someone who has done extensive internal training. My Kung Fu sifu from NC or another sifu with good credentials. I would like this to be scientific. That's the only way we are going to convince you "caring skeptics." I know I have been hit with a Chi amplified punch enough times to believe in it. -Nathan Grant Gentleman at Arms |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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18th September 2005, 04:35 AM | #39 |
Critical Thinker
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Re: chi effect
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As for 'Chi amplified punches' I would again be very skeptical that this would make a decent test of Chi and not simply good technique and training. If there are people claiming to be able to make themselves lighter, to affect people at a distance, to leap tall buildings in a single bound, etc then they qould certainly be classified as paranormal effects of Chi and be worth testing. "He hit me very hard" is not a scientific test of The Force(tm). |
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18th September 2005, 04:48 PM | #40 |
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