Intelligent Design ...

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 07:22 AM

So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

Megalodon · 18th September 2005, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

Because people who think that the Universe seems so comprehensible and completely "intelligible" don't understand what they're talking about...

Mojo · 18th September 2005, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 18th September 2005, 07:40 AM

I second Megalodon with a quote from Stimpy:

Quote:

In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case.

~~ Paul

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megalodon
Because people who think that the Universe seems so comprehensible and completely "intelligible" don't understand what they're talking about...

What makes you so "sure?"

MRC_Hans · 18th September 2005, 08:00 AM

Beacuse if you understood the universe, even to the limited level possible for human beings that really try to understand, you would not need to ask the question.

Hans

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I second Megalodon with a quote from Stimpy:

Quote:

In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case.

~~ Paul

Oh, I see, we've gotten it down to an exact science now, huh?

How could this be possible?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Beacuse if you understood the universe, even to the limited level possible for human beings that really try to understand, you would not need to ask the question.

Hans

I believe that we are all here to learn. You don't agree with this assessment? However, if nothing was comprehensible, what would there be to learn?

MRC_Hans · 18th September 2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
I believe that we are all here to learn. You don't agree with this assessment? However, if nothing was comprehensible, what would there be to learn?

And whatever has that to do with what I said?

Hans

Donks · 18th September 2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

So, what do you comprehend about the universe? What is so completely "intelligible" about it, to you?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo
The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules.

That's a very good point. In which case it's turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down, correct? So, would you care to venture a guess as to why the Universe "is" so consistent?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
And whatever has that to do with what I said?

Hans

I'm saying that there is so much about this Universe that we "do" understand. Now, whether the Universe is fully explainable (to us anyway) is not the issue. The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom), otherwise there would be nothing to explain.

MRC_Hans · 18th September 2005, 08:42 AM

Ehr, yes. The universe is fully consistent with its nature. At least that is the materialistic POV. Welcome

.

Hans

Megalodon · 18th September 2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
I'm saying that there is so much about this Universe that we "do" understand. Now, whether the Universe is fully explainable (to us anyway) is not the issue. The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom), otherwise there would be nothing to explain.

The consistent nature of the sahara suggests that the whole world must be a sandy, scorching place... and the consistent nature of antartica suggests exactly the opposite.

MRC_Hans · 18th September 2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megalodon
The consistent nature of the sahara suggests that the whole world must be a sandy, scorching place... and the consistent nature of antartica suggests exactly the opposite.

No, the consistent nature of Sahara suggestes that other places that have the same overall conditions will also be deserts, and by golly, they ARE!

Hans

Taffer · 18th September 2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, the consistent nature of Sahara suggestes that other places that have the same overall conditions will also be deserts, and by golly, they ARE!

Hans

I do believe he was poking fun at Iacchus' argument

.

Quote:

So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

Go read up about recent quantum mechanics. That doesn't seem "comprehensible and intelligent" at all. Young's slit experiment anyone? Quantum entanglement?

Mojo · 18th September 2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
That's a very good point. In which case it's turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down, correct?

Oh look, a non-sequitur.

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So, would you care to venture a guess as to why the Universe "is" so consistent?

No, because I don't think that this is a question it is possible to answer in a meaningful manner. I'm sure you've already guessed, though, judging by your thread title. But that's all your opinion here is: a guess.

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo
Oh look, a non-sequitur.

How so? I'm just saying that through and through, it should remain consistent with itself. Isn't this in effect what you were saying?

Quote:

No, because I don't think that this is a question it is possible to answer in a meaningful manner. I'm sure you've already guessed, though, judging by your thread title. But that's all your opinion here is: a guess.

So, we have meaning for just about everything else (in reference to the original post), except for the origin of meaning. Very interesting ... indeed. So, does this mean that everything we think, say and do is totally unfounded?

Mercutio · 18th September 2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, does this mean that everything we think, say and do is totally unfounded?

Nah, that's pretty much only true for you.

The rest of us are not afraid of learning. And there is plenty out there you could find (say, in a library, if you ever set foot in one) that would answer enough of your questions that you would be ashamed of most of your posts here.

RandFan · 18th September 2005, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it...

I have been trying to find a logical conclusion to this statement. All I can come up with is that "it" is explainable and that "it" is material. I'm sure that there are other conclusions and I simply lack imagination but I don't get your conclusion.

Quote:

...must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom)...

The problem might be one of semantics. Could you give us an example of something that is not "wholly consistent with its nature" and is not explainable (aside from anything abstract)?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RandFan
I have been trying to find a logical conclusion to this statement. All I can come up with is that "it" is explainable and that "it" is material. I'm sure that there are other conclusions and I simply lack imagination but I don't get your conclusion.

The problem might be one of semantics. Could you give us an example of something that is not "wholly consistent with its nature" and is not explainable (aside from anything abstract)?

Please refer to Mojo's response ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo
The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules.

I don't see how I can make it any more clear than this.

Taffer · 18th September 2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
I don't see how I can make it any more clear than this.

Do you even read the quotes you post? Mojo didn't say one word about anything in the universe that doesn't appear to follow the "laws of nature". Just what are you on about? Your hook is pitiful, ye lily-livered landlubber!

c4ts · 18th September 2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

Because comprehensibility and intelligibility are external attributes and therefore do not imply comprehension or intelligence on the part of anything but the beholder.

Taffer · 18th September 2005, 07:47 PM

Just to answer the OP in another way:

Quote:

So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

It does?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
Because comprehensibility and intelligibility are external attributes and therefore do not imply comprehension or intelligence on the part of anything but the beholder.

Is that a fact?

Mercutio · 18th September 2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Is that a fact?

actually, yes.

Bodhi Dharma Zen · 18th September 2005, 07:56 PM

lacchus

Why do you believe all your posts have to be questions? do you feel so unsecure about your own beliefs that all you can do is try to make us feel you are asking because you want us to think? how can anyone be that annoying? dont you even learn? do you honestly believe you are educating us? will you stop someday?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
actually, yes.

Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?"

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
lacchus

Why do you believe all your posts have to be questions? do you feel so unsecure about your own beliefs that all you can do is try to make us feel you are asking because you want us to think? how can anyone be that annoying? dont you even learn? do you honestly believe you are educating us? will you stop someday?

I am Socrates. Of course.

Mercutio · 18th September 2005, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?"

Iacchus, when you don't understand something, it is ok to say so. When you go off on a tangent like you do, you just look stupid.

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:06 PM

Or, what if I were the reincarnation of Socrates? In which case there would be nothing to learn, except how to be myself.

Taffer · 18th September 2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?"

It isn't, and he didn't. It seems "comprehensible and intelligible". This is due to properties of matter in the universe. There seems no reason for this, so we can assume they are because they are. It does not mean the whole universe is, as we have not observed the whole universe, have we? It doesn't even mean the universe we have observed is "comprehensible and intelligible"; it could be a giant fluke. So what is the point of this thread or of your questions?

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
Do you honestly believe you are educating us?

How does one educate oneself, without asking questions? Or, is it just a matter of accepting everything you hear verbatim? If a question is posed, I am not the one to answer it, except perhaps for myself.

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffer
It isn't, and he didn't. It seems "comprehensible and intelligible". This is due to properties of matter in the universe. There seems no reason for this, so we can assume they are because they are. It does not mean the whole universe is, as we have not observed the whole universe, have we? It doesn't even mean the universe we have observed is "comprehensible and intelligible"; it could be a giant fluke. So what is the point of this thread or of your questions?

As I have said before, it is turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down. Either the whole thing is a fluke or, none of it is a fluke. And let's not forget that it all came from the same place, correct?

Mercutio · 18th September 2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
As I have said before, it is turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down. Either the whole thing is a fluke or, none of it is a fluke. And let's not forget that it all came from the same place, correct?

Just curious, Iacchus...do you actually know what "turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down" means? I know I have used the phrase in critiquing things you have said, so there is the possibility that you are simply parroting the words without any understanding.

Could you explain to us, please, what you mean by "turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down"?

Donks · 18th September 2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
How does one educate oneself, without asking questions?

Once you ask questions, you could try searching for the answers as well.

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Or, is it just a matter of accepting everything you hear verbatim?

Is that a strawman I read? Why yes it is!

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If a question is posed, I am not the one to answer it, except perhaps for myself.

It really helps to find out if someone else already answered the question. Otherwise you'll just be reinventing the wheel. Which , at your current pace, you should achieve in 10,000 years or so?

Taffer · 18th September 2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
As I have said before, it is turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down. Either the whole thing is a fluke or, none of it is a fluke. And let's not forget that it all came from the same place, correct?

The point is, we can never know for certain if it truely is ordered. It appears ordered, but many things that appear one way are in actual fact another.

Freakshow · 18th September 2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
I believe that we are all here to learn. You don't agree with this assessment? [/i]

Actually, I don't agree with this assessment. Because reading your posts (not just this thread, but all the threads I've seen you on), it doesn't appear at all that you are here to learn anything. You are here to blather on endlessly, ending all your sentences with question marks (which does not automatically make you a user of the Socratic method, BTW), and try to twist and contort and fit everything so badly as to require a belief in the supernatural to make things work.

I've never seen you looking to learn anything here.

Iacchus · 18th September 2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Freakshow
Actually, I don't agree with this assessment. Because reading your posts (not just this thread, but all the threads I've seen you on), it doesn't appear at all that you are here to learn anything. You are here to blather on endlessly, ending all your sentences with question marks ...

Not so. You should be careful when trying to lump things into terms of "everything." There, you see, two sentences without ending in a question mark ... Er, make that three.

Quote:

... (which does not automatically make you a user of the Socratic method, BTW), and try to twist and contort and fit everything so badly as to require a belief in the supernatural to make things work.

Or, maybe there's no contortion to it at all? But then again, it's not for me to tell you what you should believe.

Quote:

I've never seen you looking to learn anything here.

You're right, I have nothing to learn here -- or, very little anyway -- except how to refine my technique.

c4ts · 18th September 2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?"

Let me try this another way.

Iacchus, if I have a bit of string, and I say it is short, where do we find the shortness? Does it come from the string itself?

18th September 2005, 07:22 AM	#1
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Intelligent Design ... So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?"

18th September 2005, 07:28 AM	#2
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	Re: Intelligent Design ... Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" Because people who think that the Universe seems so comprehensible and completely "intelligible" don't understand what they're talking about...
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	__________________ Stupid is depressing...

18th September 2005, 07:37 AM	#3
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,092	Re: Intelligent Design ... Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

18th September 2005, 07:40 AM	#4
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	I second Megalodon with a quote from Stimpy: Quote: In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

18th September 2005, 08:00 AM	#6
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Beacuse if you understood the universe, even to the limited level possible for human beings that really try to understand, you would not need to ask the question. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

18th September 2005, 07:58 AM	#5
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Megalodon Because people who think that the Universe seems so comprehensible and completely "intelligible" don't understand what they're talking about... What makes you so "sure?"

18th September 2005, 08:03 AM	#7
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos I second Megalodon with a quote from Stimpy: Quote: In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case. ~~ Paul Oh, I see, we've gotten it down to an exact science now, huh? How could this be possible?

18th September 2005, 08:11 AM	#8
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans Beacuse if you understood the universe, even to the limited level possible for human beings that really try to understand, you would not need to ask the question. Hans I believe that we are all here to learn. You don't agree with this assessment? However, if nothing was comprehensible, what would there be to learn?

18th September 2005, 08:14 AM	#9
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus I believe that we are all here to learn. You don't agree with this assessment? However, if nothing was comprehensible, what would there be to learn? And whatever has that to do with what I said? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

18th September 2005, 08:16 AM	#10
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Re: Intelligent Design ... Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" So, what do you comprehend about the universe? What is so completely "intelligible" about it, to you?
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

18th September 2005, 08:19 AM	#11
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Mojo The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules. That's a very good point. In which case it's turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down, correct? So, would you care to venture a guess as to why the Universe "is" so consistent?

18th September 2005, 08:29 AM	#12
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans And whatever has that to do with what I said? Hans I'm saying that there is so much about this Universe that we "do" understand. Now, whether the Universe is fully explainable (to us anyway) is not the issue. The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom), otherwise there would be nothing to explain.

18th September 2005, 08:42 AM	#13
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Ehr, yes. The universe is fully consistent with its nature. At least that is the materialistic POV. Welcome . Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

18th September 2005, 08:43 AM	#14
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus I'm saying that there is so much about this Universe that we "do" understand. Now, whether the Universe is fully explainable (to us anyway) is not the issue. The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom), otherwise there would be nothing to explain. The consistent nature of the sahara suggests that the whole world must be a sandy, scorching place... and the consistent nature of antartica suggests exactly the opposite.
Megalodon Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,522	__________________ Stupid is depressing...

18th September 2005, 08:46 AM	#15
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Quote: Originally posted by Megalodon The consistent nature of the sahara suggests that the whole world must be a sandy, scorching place... and the consistent nature of antartica suggests exactly the opposite. No, the consistent nature of Sahara suggestes that other places that have the same overall conditions will also be deserts, and by golly, they ARE! Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

18th September 2005, 09:13 AM	#16
Taffer Shén Tōu Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: 台中 Posts: 4,531	Quote: Originally posted by MRC_Hans No, the consistent nature of Sahara suggestes that other places that have the same overall conditions will also be deserts, and by golly, they ARE! Hans I do believe he was poking fun at Iacchus' argument . Quote: So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" Go read up about recent quantum mechanics. That doesn't seem "comprehensible and intelligent" at all. Young's slit experiment anyone? Quantum entanglement?
	__________________ Die Dulce Fruere "Whereof one cannot speak, Thereof one must be silent." BUILDS YOUR ROOFS OF DEAD WOOD. BUILDS YOUR WALLS OF DEAD STONE. BUILDS YOUR DREAMS OF DEAD THOUGHTS. COMES CRYING LAUGHING SINGING BACK TO LIFE, TAKES WHAT YOU STEAL, AND PULLS THE SKINS FROM YOUR DEAD BONES SHRIEKING. -- Clay tablet in an abandoned Trickster temple.

18th September 2005, 10:38 AM	#17
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,092	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus That's a very good point. In which case it's turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down, correct? Oh look, a non-sequitur. Quote: So, would you care to venture a guess as to why the Universe "is" so consistent? No, because I don't think that this is a question it is possible to answer in a meaningful manner. I'm sure you've already guessed, though, judging by your thread title. But that's all your opinion here is: a guess.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

18th September 2005, 06:09 PM	#18
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Mojo Oh look, a non-sequitur. How so? I'm just saying that through and through, it should remain consistent with itself. Isn't this in effect what you were saying? Quote: No, because I don't think that this is a question it is possible to answer in a meaningful manner. I'm sure you've already guessed, though, judging by your thread title. But that's all your opinion here is: a guess. So, we have meaning for just about everything else (in reference to the original post), except for the origin of meaning. Very interesting ... indeed. So, does this mean that everything we think, say and do is totally unfounded?

18th September 2005, 06:15 PM	#19
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, does this mean that everything we think, say and do is totally unfounded? Nah, that's pretty much only true for you. The rest of us are not afraid of learning. And there is plenty out there you could find (say, in a library, if you ever set foot in one) that would answer enough of your questions that you would be ashamed of most of your posts here.
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

18th September 2005, 06:34 PM	#20
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,253	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus The fact that it's explainable at all, suggests that it... I have been trying to find a logical conclusion to this statement. All I can come up with is that "it" is explainable and that "it" is material. I'm sure that there are other conclusions and I simply lack imagination but I don't get your conclusion. Quote: ...must be wholly consistent with its nature (from top to bottom)... The problem might be one of semantics. Could you give us an example of something that is not "wholly consistent with its nature" and is not explainable (aside from anything abstract)?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

18th September 2005, 07:29 PM	#21
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by RandFan I have been trying to find a logical conclusion to this statement. All I can come up with is that "it" is explainable and that "it" is material. I'm sure that there are other conclusions and I simply lack imagination but I don't get your conclusion. The problem might be one of semantics. Could you give us an example of something that is not "wholly consistent with its nature" and is not explainable (aside from anything abstract)? Please refer to Mojo's response ... Quote: Originally posted by Mojo The universe seems "comprehensible and intelligible" because it seems to follow consistent and ordered rules, at least on the sort of scale on which we're accustomed to observing it. Order is necessary for life, as the systems of chemical reactions necessary for life as we know it are dependent on each individual reaction behaving predictably. If the universe didn't follow consistent rules, life would not have been able to evolve as these systems of reactions would not work reliably. Any life form capable of observing the universe would therefore have to be living in a universe with consistent rules. I don't see how I can make it any more clear than this.

18th September 2005, 07:38 PM	#22
Taffer Shén Tōu Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: 台中 Posts: 4,531	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus I don't see how I can make it any more clear than this. Do you even read the quotes you post? Mojo didn't say one word about anything in the universe that doesn't appear to follow the "laws of nature". Just what are you on about? Your hook is pitiful, ye lily-livered landlubber!
	__________________ Die Dulce Fruere "Whereof one cannot speak, Thereof one must be silent." BUILDS YOUR ROOFS OF DEAD WOOD. BUILDS YOUR WALLS OF DEAD STONE. BUILDS YOUR DREAMS OF DEAD THOUGHTS. COMES CRYING LAUGHING SINGING BACK TO LIFE, TAKES WHAT YOU STEAL, AND PULLS THE SKINS FROM YOUR DEAD BONES SHRIEKING. -- Clay tablet in an abandoned Trickster temple.

18th September 2005, 07:38 PM	#23
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Re: Intelligent Design ... Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" Because comprehensibility and intelligibility are external attributes and therefore do not imply comprehension or intelligence on the part of anything but the beholder.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

18th September 2005, 07:47 PM	#24
Taffer Shén Tōu Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: 台中 Posts: 4,531	Just to answer the OP in another way: Quote: So, why does the Universe seem so comprehensible and completely "intelligible?" It does?
	__________________ Die Dulce Fruere "Whereof one cannot speak, Thereof one must be silent." BUILDS YOUR ROOFS OF DEAD WOOD. BUILDS YOUR WALLS OF DEAD STONE. BUILDS YOUR DREAMS OF DEAD THOUGHTS. COMES CRYING LAUGHING SINGING BACK TO LIFE, TAKES WHAT YOU STEAL, AND PULLS THE SKINS FROM YOUR DEAD BONES SHRIEKING. -- Clay tablet in an abandoned Trickster temple.

18th September 2005, 07:47 PM	#25
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts Because comprehensibility and intelligibility are external attributes and therefore do not imply comprehension or intelligence on the part of anything but the beholder. Is that a fact?

18th September 2005, 07:49 PM	#26
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Is that a fact? actually, yes.
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

18th September 2005, 07:56 PM	#27
Bodhi Dharma Zen Advaitin Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Here Posts: 3,807	lacchus Why do you believe all your posts have to be questions? do you feel so unsecure about your own beliefs that all you can do is try to make us feel you are asking because you want us to think? how can anyone be that annoying? dont you even learn? do you honestly believe you are educating us? will you stop someday?
	__________________ Im too busy living, why waste my time believing?

18th September 2005, 08:00 PM	#28
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Mercutio actually, yes. Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?"

18th September 2005, 08:02 PM	#29
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen lacchus Why do you believe all your posts have to be questions? do you feel so unsecure about your own beliefs that all you can do is try to make us feel you are asking because you want us to think? how can anyone be that annoying? dont you even learn? do you honestly believe you are educating us? will you stop someday? I am Socrates. Of course.

18th September 2005, 08:03 PM	#30
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Which is to say, none of it "really" makes sense? If so, then why do you spout it off as being "factual?" Iacchus, when you don't understand something, it is ok to say so. When you go off on a tangent like you do, you just look stupid.
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

18th September 2005, 08:06 PM	#31
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Or, what if I were the reincarnation of Socrates? In which case there would be nothing to learn, except how to be myself.

18th September 2005, 08:18 PM	#33
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen Do you honestly believe you are educating us? How does one educate oneself, without asking questions? Or, is it just a matter of accepting everything you hear verbatim? If a question is posed, I am not the one to answer it, except perhaps for myself.

18th September 2005, 08:27 PM	#34
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Taffer It isn't, and he didn't. It seems "comprehensible and intelligible". This is due to properties of matter in the universe. There seems no reason for this, so we can assume they are because they are. It does not mean the whole universe is, as we have not observed the whole universe, have we? It doesn't even mean the universe we have observed is "comprehensible and intelligible"; it could be a giant fluke. So what is the point of this thread or of your questions? As I have said before, it is turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down. Either the whole thing is a fluke or, none of it is a fluke. And let's not forget that it all came from the same place, correct?

18th September 2005, 08:36 PM	#35
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus As I have said before, it is turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down. Either the whole thing is a fluke or, none of it is a fluke. And let's not forget that it all came from the same place, correct? Just curious, Iacchus...do you actually know what "turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down" means? I know I have used the phrase in critiquing things you have said, so there is the possibility that you are simply parroting the words without any understanding. Could you explain to us, please, what you mean by "turtles all the way up, and turtles all the way down"?
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

18th September 2005, 08:37 PM	#36
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus How does one educate oneself, without asking questions? Once you ask questions, you could try searching for the answers as well. Quote: Or, is it just a matter of accepting everything you hear verbatim? Is that a strawman I read? Why yes it is! Quote: If a question is posed, I am not the one to answer it, except perhaps for myself. It really helps to find out if someone else already answered the question. Otherwise you'll just be reinventing the wheel. Which , at your current pace, you should achieve in 10,000 years or so?
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321