Need info on Transcendental Meditation

SpaceFluffer · 30th September 2005, 03:43 PM

I'm lucky (?) enough that David Lynch, John Hagelin and Fred Travis are coming to give a 'lecture' on TM in my area this weekend. I'm planning to go and ask some difficult questions during the Q&A. I don't expect to be able to convince them of anything (as much as I love Lynch as a director, the guy's insane), but perhaps I can be successful in helping at least one attendee avoid becoming sucked in by this cult.

I've already gotten some good info from www.skepdic.com and wikipedia, but I would like to know if anyone knows of good review articles or the like. Anything that describes personal experiences with the TM goons would be great, as would reviews of their TM medical claims.

Anyone got anything they can pass on?

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 30th September 2005, 04:28 PM

I am a trained teacher of TM. I spent three months in Iowa and three in Italy, back in 1976. My experiences in the TM organization were fairly pleasant, although I got out just as things began to get weird. When the Siddhi program started, we were told that we would learn to fly, walk through walls, and, my most favorite, talk to animals.

Whatever level of skepticism I'd had before that point was increased dramatically by the fact that no one would demonstrate flying, walking through walls, or talking to animals. I figured it was time to bow out gracefully and re-enter the real world.

The medical claims are mostly based on studies whose methodologies and statistics are at least somewhat suspect.

~~ Paul

RichardR · 30th September 2005, 06:50 PM

Here is something about Hagelin's experiment with TM in Washington DC.

There were many problems with this experiment. One was that the murder rate rose during the period in question. Another was that Hagelin’s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but reduced compared with what? How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM? It was discovered later that all the members of the “independent scientific review board” that scrutinized the project were followers of the Maharishi. Hagelin deservedly won an Ig Nobel Prize in 1994 for this outstanding piece of work.

Of course, Haglin was also involved in that ridiculous "What the Bleep do we know" film.

Anti_Hypeman · 1st October 2005, 07:30 AM

This video has a segment on it

http://www.xenutv.com/cults/power.htm

You get to watch a guy in flight training, its beyond words

c4ts · 1st October 2005, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by RichardR

Of course, Haglin was also involved in that ridiculous "[/font]What the Bleep do we know" film.

Which guy was he again?

Kopji · 1st October 2005, 08:52 AM

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles..._deception.htm

Meditation is another of those things that is good for many people, and the business of meditation so the damaging effects it has on some people is swept under the rug or ignored.

Beleth · 3rd October 2005, 03:52 PM

When Hagelin ran for President back in 1996, I had the honor of having dinner with him. He was running as the Natural Law Party candidate, and it was kind of a fundraising dinner, although I only donated enough to cover the cost of the dinner.

He's a very calm man - a man more like Mister Rogers you will never meet - and the Natural Law Party has a lot of good, innovative ideas, but as a non-TMer I felt rather out of place, and I certainly knew the crowd well enough to not raise a stink.

Paul's exactly right. TM's basic beliefs are quite reasonable - if you sit calmly for two hours a day, you will be calmer in general - but then they get into that flying stuff, which is basically sitting on a foam pad with your legs crossed and bouncing on your butt and knees. Which just looks silly.

I later found out that the ultimate goal of the NLP was to have an "enlightened world ruler" chosen by a group of other enlightened men. Rather like how the Pope is chosen. Well, I'll have none of that, thanks.

JLam · 3rd October 2005, 04:33 PM

The thing that always gets me is that there are supposed to be 3 levels of Yogic Flying associated with TM. The first is "hopping" (everyone seems adept at that). The second is briefly floating and the third is full-fleged flight. None of the TMers seem to question why -- since they admit that no one has gotten past stage 1 -- anyone is sure that stages 2 and 3 are even possible.

I'm thinking of starting a superhero school. I will teach you to be a superhero known as "IceMouth". You will eventually be able to spit walls of ice that will immobilize any bad guy you come across. There are 3 stages to becoming "IceMouth". The first stage is simply spitting across the room. The second stage will allow you to drool icicles, and the third stage will allow you to project large walls of ice across distances of up to 300 yards.

Of course, at this point, no one has gotten past level one, but if you write me a whole lot of checks you'll eventually get there...I promise!!

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 3rd October 2005, 05:22 PM

There is also supposed to be at least four levels of consciousness beyond the mundane: Cosmic, God, Unity, and Brahman. Maharishi is in Brahman consciousness, of course. Otherwise, I never learned who else was supposed to be in any of these states.

Get a stick. Get a carrot. You know the drill.

~~ Paul

Kilik · 5th October 2005, 09:28 AM

Where there is good there will be bad. Extreme good is opposed by extreme evil.

It takes more than only meditation to cultivate spiritually or become spiritual. I don't know anything about TM, but many meditation "experts" are still selfish jerks. What people would refer to as "enlightenment" takes a lot of work, dropping the ego, becoming unselfish, and enduring suffering.

Adrian · 6th October 2005, 01:03 PM

There is absolutely nothing good about TM or the organization. The management is full of criminals and their beliefs are basically a bunch of anti-concepts stolen from more established Indian religions. They have unfortunately attempted to find a home in schools and in politics. The Natural Law Party is a bogus wedge attempt by the TM organization to socially validate their beliefs through politics.

For a good laugh you can read up on Hagelin's new job as the "President of the US Peace Government"... strange, I haven't been able to locate the fine nation of USPeacia on the map. Check it out. (Can't post the link since I am under 15 posts... wonder the reasoning for that rule. Must be to avoid adverts, me thinks).

uspeacegovernment.org

MoonDragn · 6th October 2005, 01:15 PM

This is a good example of taking a harmless mental exercise like meditation and putting a mythical supernatural spin on it and then try to make money from it. Meditation is simply the mind going into a relaxed state akin to dreaming. There should not be any mysticism involved. I tend to think all the claims of superhuman feats are rumors spread by old men/women that got severely distorted as time went by.

CFLarsen · 6th October 2005, 02:08 PM

I got some video of some Danish TM'ers "flying". It's priceless.

You'll get it for free.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 6th October 2005, 02:23 PM

Wow, the US Peace Government. They are definitely still making this stuff up as they go along.

~~ Paul

billydkid · 6th October 2005, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by SpaceFluffer

I'm lucky (?) enough that David Lynch, John Hagelin and Fred Travis are coming to give a 'lecture' on TM in my area this weekend. I'm planning to go and ask some difficult questions during the Q&A. I don't expect to be able to convince them of anything (as much as I love Lynch as a director, the guy's insane), but perhaps I can be successful in helping at least one attendee avoid becoming sucked in by this cult.

I've already gotten some good info from www.skepdic.com and wikipedia, but I would like to know if anyone knows of good review articles or the like. Anything that describes personal experiences with the TM goons would be great, as would reviews of their TM medical claims.

Anyone got anything they can pass on?

TM is a crock of horsecrap.

Metullus · 6th October 2005, 04:42 PM

Have a friend that has been into TM for the better part of 15 years. Meditates for world peace. Hops around trying to fly.

Talking to her is like talking to a soft cheese thats been left in the sun way too long.

30th September 2005, 03:43 PM	#1
SpaceFluffer Muse Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 595	Need info on Transcendental Meditation I'm lucky (?) enough that David Lynch, John Hagelin and Fred Travis are coming to give a 'lecture' on TM in my area this weekend. I'm planning to go and ask some difficult questions during the Q&A. I don't expect to be able to convince them of anything (as much as I love Lynch as a director, the guy's insane), but perhaps I can be successful in helping at least one attendee avoid becoming sucked in by this cult. I've already gotten some good info from www.skepdic.com and wikipedia, but I would like to know if anyone knows of good review articles or the like. Anything that describes personal experiences with the TM goons would be great, as would reviews of their TM medical claims. Anyone got anything they can pass on?
SpaceFluffer Muse Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 595

30th September 2005, 04:28 PM	#2
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,588	I am a trained teacher of TM. I spent three months in Iowa and three in Italy, back in 1976. My experiences in the TM organization were fairly pleasant, although I got out just as things began to get weird. When the Siddhi program started, we were told that we would learn to fly, walk through walls, and, my most favorite, talk to animals. Whatever level of skepticism I'd had before that point was increased dramatically by the fact that no one would demonstrate flying, walking through walls, or talking to animals. I figured it was time to bow out gracefully and re-enter the real world. The medical claims are mostly based on studies whose methodologies and statistics are at least somewhat suspect. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny Last edited by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos; 1st October 2005 at 01:34 PM.

30th September 2005, 06:50 PM	#3
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281	Here is something about Hagelin's experiment with TM in Washington DC. There were many problems with this experiment. One was that the murder rate rose during the period in question. Another was that Hagelin’s report stated violent crime had been reduced by 18%, but reduced compared with what? How did he know what the crime rate would have been without the TM? It was discovered later that all the members of the “independent scientific review board” that scrutinized the project were followers of the Maharishi. Hagelin deservedly won an Ig Nobel Prize in 1994 for this outstanding piece of work. Of course, Haglin was also involved in that ridiculous "What the Bleep do we know" film.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,281	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

1st October 2005, 07:38 AM	#5
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by RichardR Of course, Haglin was also involved in that ridiculous "[/font]What the Bleep do we know" film. Which guy was he again?
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

3rd October 2005, 03:52 PM	#7
Beleth FAQ Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Not in a cave Posts: 4,134	When Hagelin ran for President back in 1996, I had the honor of having dinner with him. He was running as the Natural Law Party candidate, and it was kind of a fundraising dinner, although I only donated enough to cover the cost of the dinner. He's a very calm man - a man more like Mister Rogers you will never meet - and the Natural Law Party has a lot of good, innovative ideas, but as a non-TMer I felt rather out of place, and I certainly knew the crowd well enough to not raise a stink. Paul's exactly right. TM's basic beliefs are quite reasonable - if you sit calmly for two hours a day, you will be calmer in general - but then they get into that flying stuff, which is basically sitting on a foam pad with your legs crossed and bouncing on your butt and knees. Which just looks silly. I later found out that the ultimate goal of the NLP was to have an "enlightened world ruler" chosen by a group of other enlightened men. Rather like how the Pope is chosen. Well, I'll have none of that, thanks.
	__________________ Administrator and Head Moderator, The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Forum Big Fan, Stop Sylvia Browne I will come back only after the words "Hi, Nyarl!" are returned to the post http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=14 .

1st October 2005, 07:30 AM	#4
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	This video has a segment on it http://www.xenutv.com/cults/power.htm You get to watch a guy in flight training, its beyond words

1st October 2005, 08:52 AM	#6
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles..._deception.htm Meditation is another of those things that is good for many people, and the business of meditation so the damaging effects it has on some people is swept under the rug or ignored.

3rd October 2005, 04:33 PM	#8
JLam Proud Skepkid Parent Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Low and away Posts: 4,165	The thing that always gets me is that there are supposed to be 3 levels of Yogic Flying associated with TM. The first is "hopping" (everyone seems adept at that). The second is briefly floating and the third is full-fleged flight. None of the TMers seem to question why -- since they admit that no one has gotten past stage 1 -- anyone is sure that stages 2 and 3 are even possible. I'm thinking of starting a superhero school. I will teach you to be a superhero known as "IceMouth". You will eventually be able to spit walls of ice that will immobilize any bad guy you come across. There are 3 stages to becoming "IceMouth". The first stage is simply spitting across the room. The second stage will allow you to drool icicles, and the third stage will allow you to project large walls of ice across distances of up to 300 yards. Of course, at this point, no one has gotten past level one, but if you write me a whole lot of checks you'll eventually get there...I promise!!
	__________________ Help take down Sylvia Browne. "what's dicksing? my dicksionary have no word for that" - Pillory

3rd October 2005, 05:22 PM	#9
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,588	There is also supposed to be at least four levels of consciousness beyond the mundane: Cosmic, God, Unity, and Brahman. Maharishi is in Brahman consciousness, of course. Otherwise, I never learned who else was supposed to be in any of these states. Get a stick. Get a carrot. You know the drill. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

5th October 2005, 09:28 AM	#10
Kilik Banned Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,177	Where there is good there will be bad. Extreme good is opposed by extreme evil. It takes more than only meditation to cultivate spiritually or become spiritual. I don't know anything about TM, but many meditation "experts" are still selfish jerks. What people would refer to as "enlightenment" takes a lot of work, dropping the ego, becoming unselfish, and enduring suffering.
Kilik Banned Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,177

6th October 2005, 01:03 PM	#11
Adrian Student Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Boston Posts: 31	There is absolutely nothing good about TM or the organization. The management is full of criminals and their beliefs are basically a bunch of anti-concepts stolen from more established Indian religions. They have unfortunately attempted to find a home in schools and in politics. The Natural Law Party is a bogus wedge attempt by the TM organization to socially validate their beliefs through politics. For a good laugh you can read up on Hagelin's new job as the "President of the US Peace Government"... strange, I haven't been able to locate the fine nation of USPeacia on the map. Check it out. (Can't post the link since I am under 15 posts... wonder the reasoning for that rule. Must be to avoid adverts, me thinks). uspeacegovernment.org
	__________________ "We can rest contentedly in our sins and in our stupidities, and anyone who has watched gluttons shoveling down the most exquisite foods as if they did not know what they were eating will admit that we can ignore even pleasure. But pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world. " - C.S. Lewis

6th October 2005, 01:15 PM	#12
MoonDragn Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 314	This is a good example of taking a harmless mental exercise like meditation and putting a mythical supernatural spin on it and then try to make money from it. Meditation is simply the mind going into a relaxed state akin to dreaming. There should not be any mysticism involved. I tend to think all the claims of superhuman feats are rumors spread by old men/women that got severely distorted as time went by.

6th October 2005, 02:08 PM	#13
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	I got some video of some Danish TM'ers "flying". It's priceless. You'll get it for free.
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

6th October 2005, 02:23 PM	#14
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,588	Wow, the US Peace Government. They are definitely still making this stuff up as they go along. ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

6th October 2005, 04:15 PM	#15
billydkid Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Blanchester, OH Posts: 4,930	What you need to know. Originally Posted by SpaceFluffer I'm lucky (?) enough that David Lynch, John Hagelin and Fred Travis are coming to give a 'lecture' on TM in my area this weekend. I'm planning to go and ask some difficult questions during the Q&A. I don't expect to be able to convince them of anything (as much as I love Lynch as a director, the guy's insane), but perhaps I can be successful in helping at least one attendee avoid becoming sucked in by this cult. I've already gotten some good info from www.skepdic.com and wikipedia, but I would like to know if anyone knows of good review articles or the like. Anything that describes personal experiences with the TM goons would be great, as would reviews of their TM medical claims. Anyone got anything they can pass on? TM is a crock of horsecrap.

6th October 2005, 04:42 PM	#16
Metullus Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Waldo's Pond Posts: 3,959	Have a friend that has been into TM for the better part of 15 years. Meditates for world peace. Hops around trying to fly. Talking to her is like talking to a soft cheese thats been left in the sun way too long.
	__________________ I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy