Fake Healer

Azrael 5 · 2nd October 2005, 06:36 AM

Underground Britain.

Re-posted due to the great server loss of 2005!!

BBC2 programme about Robyn Welch who claimed she could cure cancer and other ailments just with a telephone call! A good skeptical documentary for a change.
Here's some links:
http://robynwelch.com/kiddy.php (Check out testimonials-sepecially Kate,very odd)
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=154361
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0900e...name_page.html

(Anyone know how to do short links on this new board?)

Goshawk · 2nd October 2005, 10:57 AM

It's the same as it was, innit?

[tests]

Link.

Yep.

The look is different, but it's still VBulletin.

Azrael 5 · 2nd October 2005, 12:37 PM

When posting a message this is what I see:
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Nothing to suggest posting links.

Mojo · 3rd October 2005, 03:48 AM

If you go to your user CP and select Edit Options, the last item on the screen allows you to change your posting interface to get more options.

Mojo · 3rd October 2005, 03:51 AM

Oops: double post!

Mojo · 3rd October 2005, 03:52 AM

I see she seems to have added more stuff about the documentary to her homepage since I last looked at it. It seems to have really got to her!

Ryokan · 3rd October 2005, 05:27 AM

Fake healer?

As opposed to what?

Darat · 3rd October 2005, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Fake healer?

As opposed to what?

...a Doctor.

Azrael 5 · 3rd October 2005, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

...a Doctor.

Good point! I gather Randi is "looking" at her soon.Hope he reverses the charges!

athon · 3rd October 2005, 09:35 AM

I could honestly only stomach about half of the documentary. I'm not sure if the documenter ever asked any skeptical questions or tried to balance it decently, I just had to turn over.

I switched off when she was talking to the little boy who had warts on him. She 'diagnosed' him with a brain cyst, to which the journo' asked the mother 'have you had this verified medically?'. She said 'no, I trust this woman 100%'.

Interestingly, the boy asked a couple of skeptical questions (How can you see inside my body? How do you know where you're looking?), which were treated in a very patronising way (My, you are an intelligent one, aren't you?Ha ha ha...).

I could have vomited.

Athon

pjh · 3rd October 2005, 10:15 AM

As awful as the program was, I didn't think it would be topped, but horizon did just that with Dr Huang, who got $20,000 from an english couple to have OECs injected into his brain. The program left the viewer in no doubt that the patient (suffering from ALS) was expecting to be able to walk in the hours/days following the treatment. The end result? 6 weeks later he was trying to convince his consultant in England that he had perhaps 1cm more range of movement in his index finger, and was still encouraged by the treatment.

There should be a special form of punishment for those who trick desparate people, giving them only false hope and taking large sums of money from them.

Azrael 5 · 3rd October 2005, 12:30 PM

Surely it must be illegal-in Robyn Welsch's case at least-but if no-one makes a complaint then there is nothing to investigate?
If anyone can set themselves up to take vast sums of money for something they clearly cannot do,isnt it fraud?

athon it was a highly skeptical documentary,and she was tied in knots by the interviewer towards the end.Was worth watching.

Edit to add: Just checked her website and found this gem of a quote:

Quote:

A.J. has also made a fool of a very nice Dr. Clifford Rose, who has 40 years of practice as a Neurologist, by him stating that he can see inflammation in her head by looking into her eyes with a torch and checking her reflexes. To do this correctly it would take an MRI or Spinal Tap (Lumbar Punch)

Coming from someone who can heal cancer over the phone.....

John Jackson · 4th October 2005, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by athon

I could honestly only stomach about half of the documentary. I'm not sure if the documenter ever asked any skeptical questions or tried to balance it decently, I just had to turn over.

It got better towards the end. I too though of switching off as it seemed only slightly critical at first.

I think the best aspect of the programme was how Robyn was allowed to do the damage to herself.

These people create a persona, a guru status, which people are fooled by. This programme, however, showed up someone who’s certainly deluded, and possibly psychotic. It was a great insight into the mind of how these people think.

The real concern, as always in cases like this, is not so much the outlandish claims made, but people’s willingness to accept them without question.

Darat · 4th October 2005, 04:04 AM

What I found very fascinating was the way she portrayed herself as "sweetness and light", all very lovey-dovey, using lots of terms of endearment in her speech, plenty of smiles and so on, yet how quickly this paper thin veneer cracked the moment anything wasn't quite as she demanded it. Not so much as beauty being skin deep but niceness being less then skin deep.

My impression of her was of a manipulative, extremely nasty person who was totally unconcerned about harm she might cause.

brodski · 4th October 2005, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Surely it must be illegal-in Robyn Welsch's case at least-but if no-one makes a complaint then there is nothing to investigate?

Coming from someone who can heal cancer over the phone.....

IIRC in the UK it is illigal to advertise a cure for cancer (siunce abbout nteh 1930's), watchdog actualy got a couple of "witchdoctors" prosicuted for this abbout a year or so back. Unless it was all a dream.

I think I beeter do a bit of googleing.

sophia8 · 4th October 2005, 07:29 AM

According to the BCMA, she certainly is breaking the law:

Quote:

I.1. LEGAL LIMITATIONS ON WHAT YOU CAN DO
I.1.2. The law prohibits you from doing a number of specific things. Whilst this is not an exhaustive list, they include:
* Advertising treatments to cure cancer and carrying them out......

http://tinyurl.com/aotd2

Azrael 5 · 4th October 2005, 10:10 AM

Right then *grabs phone and dials 999* lets have her!

Mojo · 4th October 2005, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by brodski

IIRC in the UK it is illigal to advertise a cure for cancer (siunce abbout nteh 1930's)

Cancer Act 1939 section 4:

Quote:

No person shall take any part in the publication of any advertisement ... containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof ...

Mojo · 4th October 2005, 11:18 AM

The question is, is there actually anything on her website that constitutes an offer to treat cancer or advise cancer patients? The "Cancer Section" just contains a load of woo about how evil technology causes cancer, e.g.

Quote:

The major problem we have is this, man-made electrical power is running anticlockwise, to the clockwise natural divine energy through our systems. As everyone knows you cannot go against the grain of nature without consequence. When you add this to chemical poisening [sic] from man-made products...

See: it's set my woo-woo detectors off again.

There are also a few testimonials saying how wonderful she is, and alleging that she has successfully treated cancer patients, but no explicit offer to treat anyone.

Azrael 5 · 4th October 2005, 03:41 PM

Nice post Mojo! Incidentally-straying into woo for a moment-is there no evidence to suggest power lines cause cancer? I hear this a lot on the news.Campaigners protesting about power lines for that reason.I always assumed there was something to it.Never bothered to research it,like....

Mojo · 5th October 2005, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Incidentally-straying into woo for a moment-is there no evidence to suggest power lines cause cancer? I hear this a lot on the news.Campaigners protesting about power lines for that reason.I always assumed there was something to it.

The idea was picked up by a journalist called Paul Brodeur, and used in a film starring Eddie Murphy, which is why people tend to accept the idea as fact.

Bob Park devoted a chapter or so of his book Voodoo Science (thoroughly recommended!) to this issue. I don't have the book to hand at the moment, but there's a good article about the issue here.

Darat · 5th October 2005, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

The question is, is there actually anything on her website that constitutes an offer to treat cancer or advise cancer patients? The "Cancer Section" just contains a load of woo about how evil technology causes cancer,
...snip...

There are also a few testimonials saying how wonderful she is, and alleging that she has successfully treated cancer patients, but no explicit offer to treat anyone.

I suspect she is well aware of this law since she said (at least twice) that she wouldn't talk about "cancer" during the interview sections, one excuse was that it was too painful because her mother died from it.

However it then transpires that some of the people she claims to have "treated" are or were suffering from cancer and at least one we know of had a terminal cancer diagnosis...

JLam · 5th October 2005, 02:43 AM

For those who are interested in this subject, it is still a topic of conversation on The Magic Cafe message board. I and others tried to interject some common sense. But, to quote Gen. Russell Honore, some of those folks are just "stuck on stupid."

The OP's comments are priceless. It's a long thread, but worth a gander.

http://tinyurl.com/759fa

2nd October 2005, 06:36 AM	#1
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	Fake Healer Underground Britain. Re-posted due to the great server loss of 2005!! BBC2 programme about Robyn Welch who claimed she could cure cancer and other ailments just with a telephone call! A good skeptical documentary for a change. Here's some links: http://robynwelch.com/kiddy.php (Check out testimonials-sepecially Kate,very odd) http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=154361 http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0900e...name_page.html (Anyone know how to do short links on this new board?)
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

2nd October 2005, 12:37 PM	#3
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	When posting a message this is what I see: You may post new threads You may post replies You may post attachments You may edit your posts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- vB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Nothing to suggest posting links.
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

3rd October 2005, 03:48 AM	#4
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	If you go to your user CP and select Edit Options, the last item on the screen allows you to change your posting interface to get more options.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

3rd October 2005, 03:51 AM	#5
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	Oops: double post!
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 3rd October 2005 at 03:54 AM.

3rd October 2005, 03:52 AM	#6
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	I see she seems to have added more stuff about the documentary to her homepage since I last looked at it. It seems to have really got to her!
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 3rd October 2005 at 03:58 AM.

2nd October 2005, 10:57 AM	#2
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	It's the same as it was, innit? [tests] Link. Yep. The look is different, but it's still VBulletin.

3rd October 2005, 05:27 AM	#7
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,198	Fake healer? As opposed to what?

3rd October 2005, 06:04 AM	#8
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,795	Originally Posted by Ryokan Fake healer? As opposed to what? ...a Doctor.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

3rd October 2005, 09:26 AM	#9
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	Originally Posted by Darat ...a Doctor. Good point! I gather Randi is "looking" at her soon.Hope he reverses the charges!
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

3rd October 2005, 09:35 AM	#10
athon Kowalski Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: gone Posts: 9,286	I could honestly only stomach about half of the documentary. I'm not sure if the documenter ever asked any skeptical questions or tried to balance it decently, I just had to turn over. I switched off when she was talking to the little boy who had warts on him. She 'diagnosed' him with a brain cyst, to which the journo' asked the mother 'have you had this verified medically?'. She said 'no, I trust this woman 100%'. Interestingly, the boy asked a couple of skeptical questions (How can you see inside my body? How do you know where you're looking?), which were treated in a very patronising way (My, you are an intelligent one, aren't you?Ha ha ha...). I could have vomited. Athon

3rd October 2005, 10:15 AM	#11
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218	As awful as the program was, I didn't think it would be topped, but horizon did just that with Dr Huang, who got $20,000 from an english couple to have OECs injected into his brain. The program left the viewer in no doubt that the patient (suffering from ALS) was expecting to be able to walk in the hours/days following the treatment. The end result? 6 weeks later he was trying to convince his consultant in England that he had perhaps 1cm more range of movement in his index finger, and was still encouraged by the treatment. There should be a special form of punishment for those who trick desparate people, giving them only false hope and taking large sums of money from them.
pjh Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 218

3rd October 2005, 12:30 PM	#12
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	Surely it must be illegal-in Robyn Welsch's case at least-but if no-one makes a complaint then there is nothing to investigate? If anyone can set themselves up to take vast sums of money for something they clearly cannot do,isnt it fraud? athon it was a highly skeptical documentary,and she was tied in knots by the interviewer towards the end.Was worth watching. Edit to add: Just checked her website and found this gem of a quote: Quote: A.J. has also made a fool of a very nice Dr. Clifford Rose, who has 40 years of practice as a Neurologist, by him stating that he can see inflammation in her head by looking into her eyes with a torch and checking her reflexes. To do this correctly it would take an MRI or Spinal Tap (Lumbar Punch) Coming from someone who can heal cancer over the phone.....
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Last edited by Azrael 5; 3rd October 2005 at 12:57 PM.

4th October 2005, 03:56 AM	#13
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 675	Originally Posted by athon I could honestly only stomach about half of the documentary. I'm not sure if the documenter ever asked any skeptical questions or tried to balance it decently, I just had to turn over. It got better towards the end. I too though of switching off as it seemed only slightly critical at first. I think the best aspect of the programme was how Robyn was allowed to do the damage to herself. These people create a persona, a guru status, which people are fooled by. This programme, however, showed up someone who’s certainly deluded, and possibly psychotic. It was a great insight into the mind of how these people think. The real concern, as always in cases like this, is not so much the outlandish claims made, but people’s willingness to accept them without question.
John Jackson Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 675

4th October 2005, 04:04 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,795	What I found very fascinating was the way she portrayed herself as "sweetness and light", all very lovey-dovey, using lots of terms of endearment in her speech, plenty of smiles and so on, yet how quickly this paper thin veneer cracked the moment anything wasn't quite as she demanded it. Not so much as beauty being skin deep but niceness being less then skin deep. My impression of her was of a manipulative, extremely nasty person who was totally unconcerned about harm she might cause.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

4th October 2005, 06:12 AM	#15
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,086	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Surely it must be illegal-in Robyn Welsch's case at least-but if no-one makes a complaint then there is nothing to investigate? Coming from someone who can heal cancer over the phone..... IIRC in the UK it is illigal to advertise a cure for cancer (siunce abbout nteh 1930's), watchdog actualy got a couple of "witchdoctors" prosicuted for this abbout a year or so back. Unless it was all a dream. I think I beeter do a bit of googleing.
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,086

4th October 2005, 07:29 AM	#16
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the dark, dark forest.... Posts: 2,263	According to the BCMA, she certainly is breaking the law: Quote: I.1. LEGAL LIMITATIONS ON WHAT YOU CAN DO I.1.2. The law prohibits you from doing a number of specific things. Whilst this is not an exhaustive list, they include: * Advertising treatments to cure cancer and carrying them out...... http://tinyurl.com/aotd2
	__________________ "Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney

4th October 2005, 10:10 AM	#17
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	Right then grabs phone and dials 999 lets have her!
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

4th October 2005, 11:00 AM	#18
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	Originally Posted by brodski IIRC in the UK it is illigal to advertise a cure for cancer (siunce abbout nteh 1930's) Cancer Act 1939 section 4: Quote: No person shall take any part in the publication of any advertisement ... containing an offer to treat any person for cancer, or to prescribe any remedy therefor, or to give any advice in connection with the treatment thereof ...
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th October 2005, 11:18 AM	#19
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	The question is, is there actually anything on her website that constitutes an offer to treat cancer or advise cancer patients? The "Cancer Section" just contains a load of woo about how evil technology causes cancer, e.g. Quote: The major problem we have is this, man-made electrical power is running anticlockwise, to the clockwise natural divine energy through our systems. As everyone knows you cannot go against the grain of nature without consequence. When you add this to chemical poisening [sic] from man-made products... See: it's set my woo-woo detectors off again. There are also a few testimonials saying how wonderful she is, and alleging that she has successfully treated cancer patients, but no explicit offer to treat anyone.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th October 2005, 03:41 PM	#20
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Yorkshire,Uk Posts: 5,032	Nice post Mojo! Incidentally-straying into woo for a moment-is there no evidence to suggest power lines cause cancer? I hear this a lot on the news.Campaigners protesting about power lines for that reason.I always assumed there was something to it.Never bothered to research it,like....
	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown

5th October 2005, 01:27 AM	#21
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,094	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 Incidentally-straying into woo for a moment-is there no evidence to suggest power lines cause cancer? I hear this a lot on the news.Campaigners protesting about power lines for that reason.I always assumed there was something to it. The idea was picked up by a journalist called Paul Brodeur, and used in a film starring Eddie Murphy, which is why people tend to accept the idea as fact. Bob Park devoted a chapter or so of his book Voodoo Science (thoroughly recommended!) to this issue. I don't have the book to hand at the moment, but there's a good article about the issue here.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 5th October 2005 at 01:29 AM.

5th October 2005, 01:52 AM	#22
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,795	Originally Posted by Mojo The question is, is there actually anything on her website that constitutes an offer to treat cancer or advise cancer patients? The "Cancer Section" just contains a load of woo about how evil technology causes cancer, ...snip... There are also a few testimonials saying how wonderful she is, and alleging that she has successfully treated cancer patients, but no explicit offer to treat anyone. I suspect she is well aware of this law since she said (at least twice) that she wouldn't talk about "cancer" during the interview sections, one excuse was that it was too painful because her mother died from it. However it then transpires that some of the people she claims to have "treated" are or were suffering from cancer and at least one we know of had a terminal cancer diagnosis...
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

5th October 2005, 02:43 AM	#23
JLam Proud Skepkid Parent Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Low and away Posts: 4,165	For those who are interested in this subject, it is still a topic of conversation on The Magic Cafe message board. I and others tried to interject some common sense. But, to quote Gen. Russell Honore, some of those folks are just "stuck on stupid." The OP's comments are priceless. It's a long thread, but worth a gander. http://tinyurl.com/759fa
	__________________ Help take down Sylvia Browne. "what's dicksing? my dicksionary have no word for that" - Pillory