Science 1, Homeopathy 0

davidhorman · 3rd February 2003, 01:21 AM

Homeopathic remedy 'ineffective' - but the woo-woos are pointing out flaws.

David

The Don · 3rd February 2003, 05:20 AM

I think that makes the score Science 1Bazillion, Homeopathy 0

FP1 · 3rd February 2003, 07:39 AM

"One group was given 'high-potency' homeopathic arnica tablets to be taken before the operation and afterwards for two weeks."

Isn't a "high-potency homeopathic" preparation an oxymoron?

pgwenthold · 3rd February 2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FP1
"One group was given 'high-potency' homeopathic arnica tablets to be taken before the operation and afterwards for two weeks."

Isn't a "high-potency homeopathic" preparation an oxymoron?

The simple question is, how was it determined that the "high-potency" pill was higher potency than the low-potency pill? The potency is dependent on the effectiveness, which has never been established...

And while I'm at it, I want to know who decided that the New and Improved Milk Bones test better than the old ones did?

arcticpenguin · 3rd February 2003, 09:18 AM

Keep in mind that the central principle of homeopathy is not the dilutions, it is the principle "like cures like". I.e. give a poison which induces a set of symptoms similar to that evoked by the illness. The possible harmful effects of this should be obvious, and that's when homeopathy descended into the near-infinite dilutions.

So then, the "high-potency" treatments are less diluted and may actually have some of the desired molecules in them. Would need to see the actual numbers to know.

I.e. they may be talking about what in the U.S. would be known as an "alternative" or "herbal" remedy.

arcticpenguin · 3rd February 2003, 09:21 AM

OK, I understand now what you're saying about the use of the word "potency", as in effectiveness. Just substitute 'concentration'.

pgwenthold · 3rd February 2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
OK, I understand now what you're saying about the use of the word "potency", as in effectiveness. Just substitute 'concentration'.

Which is back to FP1's original question: is more dilute more potent? Or less potent?

Not so easy to tell with these folks.

Goshawk · 3rd February 2003, 11:32 AM

I don't understand how Janet Richardson can claim that the study was "poorly designed". It seems fairly straightforward to me--one group got high-potency arnica, one group got low-potency arnica, and one group got a placebo. The researchers relied not only on subjective "pain reports" but they also used photos and measurements of the wrists to detect bruising and swelling.

Methinks I detect the whining of a sore loser.

3rd February 2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goshawk
Methinks I detect the whining of a sore loser.

Quite possibly. On the other hand, this article doesn't specify either the numbers involved or if it the study was double-blind.

Cheers,

Goshawk · 3rd February 2003, 12:12 PM

It was a double blind test.

Link for the abstract of Dr. Ernst's article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. (Full article requires subscription.)

http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abst...urnalcode=jrsm

Quote:

J R Soc Med 2003;96:60-65
© 2003 The Royal Society of Medicine </misc/terms.shtml>
Homeopathic arnica for prevention of pain and bruising: randomized placebo-controlled trial in hand surgery

C Stevinson BSc MSc V S Devaraj FRCS FRCS(Plast) 1 A Fountain-Barber MCSP SRP 1 S Hawkins MCSP SRP 1 E Ernst MD PhD
Department of Complementary Medicine, University of Exeter, 25 Victoria Park Road, Exeter EX2 4NT, UK
1 Department of Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery, Royal Devon & Exeter Hospital, Barrack Road, Exeter EX2 5DW, UK

Homeopathic arnica is widely believed to control bruising, reduce swelling and promote recovery after local trauma; many patients therefore take it perioperatively. To determine whether this treatment has any effect, we conducted a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial with three parallel arms. 64 adults undergoing elective surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome were randomized to take three tablets daily of homeopathic arnica 30C or 6C or placebo for seven days before surgery and fourteen days after surgery. Primary outcome measures were pain (short form McGill Pain Questionnaire) and bruising (colour separation analysis) at four days after surgery. Secondary outcome measures were swelling (wrist circumference) and use of analgesic medication (patient diary).

62 patients could be included in the intention-to-treat analysis. There were no group differences on the primary outcome measures of pain (P=0.79) and bruising (P=0.45) at day four. Swelling and use of analgesic medication also did not differ between arnica and placebo groups. Adverse events were reported by 2 patients in the arnica 6C group, 3 in the placebo group and 4 in the arnica 30C group.
The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.

Back story.
http://www.healthandage.org/Home/gid1=974

Quote:

Arnica does not help hand surgery patients
Susan Aldridge, PhD

A surgeon's practice of prescribing arnica before and after surgery has not been vindicated in a clinical trial.

For many years, Dr V Devaraj, a surgeon based at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital in the West of England, has suggested his patients take homeopathic arnica before and after an operation. He firmly believes it relieves pain and helps the healing process. After all, arnica is a time-honoured remedy for trauma - and many people use it for bruises, cuts, and swelling.

Colleagues at the University of Exeter wanted to put Dr Devaraj's theory to the test. Sixty four patients having elective hand surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome were given either arnica, at one of two homeopathic doses, or placebo. Then Dr Devaraj, who did not know which medication each patient was on, operated. After the operation there was no significant difference between the arnica and placebo groups on pain, bruising or swelling. It may be that the dose was inappropriate, or that arnica works in other patients - or maybe it really does not deserve its reputation as a healer. Despite these negative results, Dr Devaraj says he will continue to use arnica with his surgical patients.

Source
Annual Symposium on Complementary Health December 7 2001

BillyJoe · 5th February 2003, 01:25 AM

Okay, double-blind and placebo-controlled.....

.....but it definitely wasn't a cross-over trial

(Maybe this is why Janet Richardson distrusts the trial

)

xouper · 11th February 2004, 10:10 AM

bump

3rd February 2003, 01:21 AM	#1
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984	Science 1, Homeopathy 0 Homeopathic remedy 'ineffective' - but the woo-woos are pointing out flaws. David
davidhorman Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 984

3rd February 2003, 07:39 AM	#3
FP1 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3	Huh? "One group was given 'high-potency' homeopathic arnica tablets to be taken before the operation and afterwards for two weeks." Isn't a "high-potency homeopathic" preparation an oxymoron?
FP1 New Blood Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 3

3rd February 2003, 08:54 AM	#4
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Re: Huh? Quote: Originally posted by FP1 "One group was given 'high-potency' homeopathic arnica tablets to be taken before the operation and afterwards for two weeks." Isn't a "high-potency homeopathic" preparation an oxymoron? The simple question is, how was it determined that the "high-potency" pill was higher potency than the low-potency pill? The potency is dependent on the effectiveness, which has never been established... And while I'm at it, I want to know who decided that the New and Improved Milk Bones test better than the old ones did?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

3rd February 2003, 09:18 AM	#5
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	Keep in mind that the central principle of homeopathy is not the dilutions, it is the principle "like cures like". I.e. give a poison which induces a set of symptoms similar to that evoked by the illness. The possible harmful effects of this should be obvious, and that's when homeopathy descended into the near-infinite dilutions. So then, the "high-potency" treatments are less diluted and may actually have some of the desired molecules in them. Would need to see the actual numbers to know. I.e. they may be talking about what in the U.S. would be known as an "alternative" or "herbal" remedy.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

3rd February 2003, 09:21 AM	#6
arcticpenguin woo ban clan Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,717	OK, I understand now what you're saying about the use of the word "potency", as in effectiveness. Just substitute 'concentration'.
	__________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw

3rd February 2003, 05:20 AM	#2
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,265	I think that makes the score Science 1Bazillion, Homeopathy 0

3rd February 2003, 09:33 AM	#7
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Quote: Originally posted by arcticpenguin OK, I understand now what you're saying about the use of the word "potency", as in effectiveness. Just substitute 'concentration'. Which is back to FP1's original question: is more dilute more potent? Or less potent? Not so easy to tell with these folks.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

3rd February 2003, 11:32 AM	#8
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	I don't understand how Janet Richardson can claim that the study was "poorly designed". It seems fairly straightforward to me--one group got high-potency arnica, one group got low-potency arnica, and one group got a placebo. The researchers relied not only on subjective "pain reports" but they also used photos and measurements of the wrists to detect bruising and swelling. Methinks I detect the whining of a sore loser.

3rd February 2003, 11:37 AM	#9
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Goshawk Methinks I detect the whining of a sore loser. Quite possibly. On the other hand, this article doesn't specify either the numbers involved or if it the study was double-blind. Cheers,
Guest Posts: n/a

3rd February 2003, 12:12 PM	#10
Goshawk Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Decatur, Illinois, USA Posts: 1,453	It was a double blind test. Link for the abstract of Dr. Ernst's article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. (Full article requires subscription.) http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abst...urnalcode=jrsm Quote: J R Soc Med 2003;96:60-65 © 2003 The Royal Society of Medicine </misc/terms.shtml> Homeopathic arnica for prevention of pain and bruising: randomized placebo-controlled trial in hand surgery C Stevinson BSc MSc V S Devaraj FRCS FRCS(Plast) 1 A Fountain-Barber MCSP SRP 1 S Hawkins MCSP SRP 1 E Ernst MD PhD Department of Complementary Medicine, University of Exeter, 25 Victoria Park Road, Exeter EX2 4NT, UK 1 Department of Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery, Royal Devon & Exeter Hospital, Barrack Road, Exeter EX2 5DW, UK Homeopathic arnica is widely believed to control bruising, reduce swelling and promote recovery after local trauma; many patients therefore take it perioperatively. To determine whether this treatment has any effect, we conducted a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial with three parallel arms. 64 adults undergoing elective surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome were randomized to take three tablets daily of homeopathic arnica 30C or 6C or placebo for seven days before surgery and fourteen days after surgery. Primary outcome measures were pain (short form McGill Pain Questionnaire) and bruising (colour separation analysis) at four days after surgery. Secondary outcome measures were swelling (wrist circumference) and use of analgesic medication (patient diary). 62 patients could be included in the intention-to-treat analysis. There were no group differences on the primary outcome measures of pain (P=0.79) and bruising (P=0.45) at day four. Swelling and use of analgesic medication also did not differ between arnica and placebo groups. Adverse events were reported by 2 patients in the arnica 6C group, 3 in the placebo group and 4 in the arnica 30C group. The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery. Back story. http://www.healthandage.org/Home/gid1=974 Quote: Arnica does not help hand surgery patients Susan Aldridge, PhD A surgeon's practice of prescribing arnica before and after surgery has not been vindicated in a clinical trial. For many years, Dr V Devaraj, a surgeon based at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital in the West of England, has suggested his patients take homeopathic arnica before and after an operation. He firmly believes it relieves pain and helps the healing process. After all, arnica is a time-honoured remedy for trauma - and many people use it for bruises, cuts, and swelling. Colleagues at the University of Exeter wanted to put Dr Devaraj's theory to the test. Sixty four patients having elective hand surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome were given either arnica, at one of two homeopathic doses, or placebo. Then Dr Devaraj, who did not know which medication each patient was on, operated. After the operation there was no significant difference between the arnica and placebo groups on pain, bruising or swelling. It may be that the dose was inappropriate, or that arnica works in other patients - or maybe it really does not deserve its reputation as a healer. Despite these negative results, Dr Devaraj says he will continue to use arnica with his surgical patients. Source Annual Symposium on Complementary Health December 7 2001

5th February 2003, 01:25 AM	#11
BillyJoe Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: MOOROOLBARK Posts: 12,539	Okay, double-blind and placebo-controlled..... .....but it definitely wasn't a cross-over trial (Maybe this is why Janet Richardson distrusts the trial )
	__________________ A secular society is one in which no one loses any liberty as a consequence of someone else's religious beliefs. NB Allowing yourself to get led around the nose by a person like Craig is a losing strategy. SH Morality is a social coating around a Darwinian core. JC My joke about freewill: There is no basis for it.

11th February 2004, 10:10 AM	#12
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189	bump
xouper Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,189