Peter Duesberg and the "HIV does not cause AIDS" crowd

HopkinsMedStudent · 12th October 2005, 07:52 PM

When laypersons go off on their ridiculous tangents, I'm not that surprised, but it really irritates me when we have so-called "scientists" like Peter Duesberg who give fire to these "causes"

If you go to his website (www.duesberg.com) you'll notice that his rhetoric has toned down quite a bit since the early 90s. He seems to have focused his energy on the role of aneuploidy vs mutation in cancer genesis.

In case you dont know his stance, he claims that AIDS is caused by anti-HIV drugs (specifically AZT) and illicit drug use.

My guess is that since now we have a much wider variety of drugs used for HIV that he cant explain the new data, so therefore he doesnt have much to say anymore. If you read his latest rantings, they are all about AZT and dont address the newer classes such as protease inhibitors at all.

How is this quack still able to retain his post at an institution like UC Berkeley? Its OK to be wrong as long as you follow the science. But Duesberg isnt following the science, he's following philosophical dogma.

If one of my professors started following dogma instead of science, he'd get laughed out of this institution and be a disgrace.

eri · 12th October 2005, 08:36 PM

Why do I always read 'Duesberg' as 'Douchebag'?

It's harder to get rid of a tenured professor then you would think. Even being a laughing stock isn't enough. I'm just assuming here that he has tenure if he IS still at Berkeley.

There was that psyciatrist at Harvard who was convinced that people were being abducted by aliens - John Mack. Mean as it is, I heard they were really happy when he died.

Chris Haynes · 12th October 2005, 08:47 PM

Duesberg is the prime reason that Christine Maggiore had for discontinuing any precautions after testing HIV+... especially after becoming pregnant. The subject of this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45105

I am occasionally slowly reading this very long essay on the HIV/AIDS dissidents: http://yarchive.net/med/aids_heresies.html

Deetee · 13th October 2005, 03:23 AM

The HIV/AIDS dissidents are as active as ever. Unfortunately it seems that reponding to them merely gives them the oxygen of publicity, very much in the same way as debating creationists or MMR-autism woo-woos lends them and their theories the aura of scientific equivalence.

I have previously engaged with them in a protracted online debate in the British Medical Journal.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/elett...7387/495#88307
(If your browser doesn't crash under the load, you may see many of the arguments played out here.)

Duesberg is not the prime current offender, as you say. At least he accepts HIV exists, he just happens to think it is harmless. In this he is at odds with many other dissidents, including the "Perth Group", who have their own unscientific slant on the problem. http://www.theperthgroup.com/

Somewhat in line with the JREF paranormal $1mill challenge, one of the HIV dissidents tried to set up a prize for proof of the isolation of HIV, up to the level of £10000. Of course there was no proof the money actually existed, and no-one would ever win as the judge of whether there was proof was the person who was "volunteering" the cash prize.

Interestingly, Duesberg tried to claim the prize, demonstrating that the virus did exist, but was judged to have failed. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pdreplyep.htm

epepke · 14th October 2005, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Deetee

I have previously engaged with them in a protracted online debate in the British Medical Journal.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/elett...7387/495#88307

Thank you for the link. I find it truly disturbing. I thought the quality of argument from woos here was bad!

Belz... · 14th October 2005, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by HopkinsMedStudent

In case you dont know his stance, he claims that AIDS is caused by anti-HIV drugs (specifically AZT) and illicit drug use.

He should have tea with Tom Cruise, then. They'd get along fine.

Pragmatist · 14th October 2005, 02:08 PM

You ought to introduce him to our old friend Roger Coghill who has the "proof" that AIDS is caused by watching TV...!

For a fine example of that stunning idiocy see this:

http://web.archive.org/web/200406081...co.uk/aids.htm

Or if you don't mind risking serious brain damage, you can see his performance on here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=22595

12th October 2005, 07:52 PM	#1
HopkinsMedStudent Thinker Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 210	Peter Duesberg and the "HIV does not cause AIDS" crowd When laypersons go off on their ridiculous tangents, I'm not that surprised, but it really irritates me when we have so-called "scientists" like Peter Duesberg who give fire to these "causes" If you go to his website (www.duesberg.com) you'll notice that his rhetoric has toned down quite a bit since the early 90s. He seems to have focused his energy on the role of aneuploidy vs mutation in cancer genesis. In case you dont know his stance, he claims that AIDS is caused by anti-HIV drugs (specifically AZT) and illicit drug use. My guess is that since now we have a much wider variety of drugs used for HIV that he cant explain the new data, so therefore he doesnt have much to say anymore. If you read his latest rantings, they are all about AZT and dont address the newer classes such as protease inhibitors at all. How is this quack still able to retain his post at an institution like UC Berkeley? Its OK to be wrong as long as you follow the science. But Duesberg isnt following the science, he's following philosophical dogma. If one of my professors started following dogma instead of science, he'd get laughed out of this institution and be a disgrace.
HopkinsMedStudent Thinker Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 210

12th October 2005, 08:47 PM	#3
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,204	Duesberg is the prime reason that Christine Maggiore had for discontinuing any precautions after testing HIV+... especially after becoming pregnant. The subject of this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45105 I am occasionally slowly reading this very long essay on the HIV/AIDS dissidents: http://yarchive.net/med/aids_heresies.html
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

13th October 2005, 03:23 AM	#4
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	The HIV/AIDS dissidents are as active as ever. Unfortunately it seems that reponding to them merely gives them the oxygen of publicity, very much in the same way as debating creationists or MMR-autism woo-woos lends them and their theories the aura of scientific equivalence. I have previously engaged with them in a protracted online debate in the British Medical Journal. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/elett...7387/495#88307 (If your browser doesn't crash under the load, you may see many of the arguments played out here.) Duesberg is not the prime current offender, as you say. At least he accepts HIV exists, he just happens to think it is harmless. In this he is at odds with many other dissidents, including the "Perth Group", who have their own unscientific slant on the problem. http://www.theperthgroup.com/ Somewhat in line with the JREF paranormal $1mill challenge, one of the HIV dissidents tried to set up a prize for proof of the isolation of HIV, up to the level of £10000. Of course there was no proof the money actually existed, and no-one would ever win as the judge of whether there was proof was the person who was "volunteering" the cash prize. Interestingly, Duesberg tried to claim the prize, demonstrating that the virus did exist, but was judged to have failed. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pdreplyep.htm
Deetee Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,790	__________________ "Reci bobu bob a popu pop." - Tanja "Everything is physics. This does not mean that physics is everything." - Cuddles "The entire practice of homeopathy can be substituted with the advice to "take two aspirins and call me in the morning." - Linda "Homeopathy: I never knew there was so little in it." - BSM

14th October 2005, 12:52 PM	#5
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	Originally Posted by Deetee I have previously engaged with them in a protracted online debate in the British Medical Journal. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/elett...7387/495#88307 Thank you for the link. I find it truly disturbing. I thought the quality of argument from woos here was bad!
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

14th October 2005, 01:15 PM	#6
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,397	Originally Posted by HopkinsMedStudent In case you dont know his stance, he claims that AIDS is caused by anti-HIV drugs (specifically AZT) and illicit drug use. He should have tea with Tom Cruise, then. They'd get along fine.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

12th October 2005, 08:36 PM	#2
eri Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere nearby, pointing and laughing. Posts: 459	Why do I always read 'Duesberg' as 'Douchebag'? It's harder to get rid of a tenured professor then you would think. Even being a laughing stock isn't enough. I'm just assuming here that he has tenure if he IS still at Berkeley. There was that psyciatrist at Harvard who was convinced that people were being abducted by aliens - John Mack. Mean as it is, I heard they were really happy when he died.

14th October 2005, 02:08 PM	#7
Pragmatist Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,529	You ought to introduce him to our old friend Roger Coghill who has the "proof" that AIDS is caused by watching TV...! For a fine example of *that* stunning idiocy see this: http://web.archive.org/web/200406081...co.uk/aids.htm Or if you don't mind risking serious brain damage, you can see his performance on here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=22595