God and the Little League

triadboy · 14th October 2005, 12:38 PM

I was invited to play in a fundraiser golf tournament for a community little league baseball organization. I went to their site to check it out and found this pledge:

Quote:

Little League Pledge: "I Trust in God. I love my country and will respect it's laws. I will play fair and strive to win. But win or lose, I will always do my best."

For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

Iacchus · 14th October 2005, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

When's the last time you took a look at any U.S. currency? Perhaps they just "coined" the phrase?

Marquis de Carabas · 14th October 2005, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

I'm pretty sure when the Little League prayer says "God," it means "Koufax."

TragicMonkey · 14th October 2005, 01:56 PM

Will their god punish them for abusing that apostrophe, and pointless capitalization?

jimlintott · 14th October 2005, 08:13 PM

I don't see the need for any sort of pledge for little leauge but if they must have a pledge, they should get rid of the first TWO sentences.

Yahweh · 14th October 2005, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

Theres no crying in baseball, I guess...

Atlas · 14th October 2005, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

Back when they let me play deep lonely fielder, God was the only one to talk to during the game.

I would say "Please don't let him hit it to me." If I try to remember those days real hard, I can still hear Him laughing.

So what does God have to do with little league? I hate them both.

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

When's the last time you took a look at any U.S. currency?

You are right - it shouldn't be there either

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Will their god punish them for abusing that apostrophe, and pointless capitalization?

Agree.

Someone should proofread these things before they throw them on the Web.

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by jimlintott

I don't see the need for any sort of pledge for little leauge but if they must have a pledge, they should get rid of the first TWO sentences.

They forgot "I will eat my vegetables and clean up my room."

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Yahweh

Theres no crying in baseball, I guess...

But apparently the adults need to ensure there is a deep cosmic guilt pent up in the little buggers.

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Atlas

Back when they let me play deep lonely fielder, God was the only one to talk to during the game.

I would say "Please don't let him hit it to me." If I try to remember those days real hard, I can still hear Him laughing.

So what does God have to do with little league? I hate them both.

So you were that guy in right field!

I played third base and prayed the same prayer!

Iacchus · 15th October 2005, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

You are right - it shouldn't be there either

Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of?

Mercutio · 15th October 2005, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of?

Do you know anything at all about the history of how that phrase came to be on our currency? Or are you as ignorant of that as of...gee, pick one...

triadboy · 15th October 2005, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of?

I agree the founding fathers were Deists. I think their 'god' was just 'a creator'. They probably didn't identify Him with the Jewish tribal god.

The god phrases on the coins and in the Pledge popped in the 50's (I think) to made the distinction between the US and the godless communists. (This was right after the McCarthy Hearings)

DarkMagician · 15th October 2005, 10:34 PM

Poor semicolon, no one loves you. You're like the redheaded stepchild of punctuation; You're not quite a colon; you're not quite a comma. People don't use you, thinking it's too tough for you to get into a sentence. I still love you, though.

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by triadboy

The god phrases on the coins and in the Pledge popped in the 50's (I think) to made the distinction between the US and the godless communists. (This was right after the McCarthy Hearings)

Yes, I was aware of this, except perhaps the part about McCarthy. While, believe it or not, this is one of the (few) things I have learned since I've been posting on this forum.

It still leads me to wonder though, how "inocuous" such an inscription would seem to the founders of this country? But then again, who's really interested in learning about the heritage of this country? Does any reference to God become suspect now? These folks were not atheists, and believed in a Creator.

Roboramma · 16th October 2005, 04:58 AM

Holy Mary Mother of God! If the founding fathers of the USA believed in God, well, then. They must have been right!

Mercutio · 16th October 2005, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

These folks were not atheists, and believed in a Creator.

Even among the founders, the conception of god was not monolithic. They certainly felt differently about god than the McCarthyites did, and very differently than you, Iacchus, do.

If you think there is disagreement between atheists and theists, that is nothing compared to disagreements between theists of different stripes. Would you mind if our currency said "in Allah we trust", or "in Thoth we trust", or any of a thousand others?

TragicMonkey · 16th October 2005, 10:09 AM

"In God We Trust" is too tame and boring. I would prefer a jazzy Bible quote:

"There are spirits that are created for vengeance, and in their fury they lay on grievous torments." Ecclesiasticus 39:33

"For the devising of idols was the beginning of spiritual fornication, and the invention of them the corruption of life." Wisdom of Solomon 14:12

"Then I returned, and washed myself, and ate my meat in heaviness" Tobit 2:5

All of which are fraught with interesting color and value. And since they're all apocryphal, maybe they're religious, maybe they're not, so who can object?

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Even among the founders, the conception of god was not monolithic. They certainly felt differently about god than the McCarthyites did, and very differently than you, Iacchus, do.

Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves.

Quote:

If you think there is disagreement between atheists and theists, that is nothing compared to disagreements between theists of different stripes. Would you mind if our currency said "in Allah we trust", or "in Thoth we trust", or any of a thousand others?

Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah." I would have a problem though, if the fundamentalists (of any organization) took over and started to control things. This is why the founding fathers opted to leave religion (since it lends itself so well to despotism) out of the government.

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves.

Except for, you know, the ones that weren't.

Quote:

Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah."

Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"?

Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term.

Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one. That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter. If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god.

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by cyborg

Except for, you know, the ones that weren't.

Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers.

Quote:

Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"?

No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily accomplish this.

Quote:

Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term.

And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?" What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either.

Quote:

Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one.

Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim.

Quote:

That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter.

And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense?

Quote:

If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god.

The word "God" is non-denominational.

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers.

Again you seem not to be talking using English.

Quote:

No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily aqccomplish this.

So you'd go around saying, "In Zeus We Trust" even though you don't trust in a god sitting atop Mt Olympus?

Quote:

And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?"

Since it was a Christian who started it and got it popularised: no.

Quote:

What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either.

Creator would be better. But then I'm not an American so it's pretty tangental to my concerns.

Quote:

Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim.

Who said this was a fundamentalist thing? It's been whole-heartedly embraced by the majority of Christian America - I'm sure most don't even think about the possibility of any other god being referred to.

Quote:

And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense?

Um, tense?

Quote:

tense2 Audio pronunciation of "tense" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tns)
n.

1. Any one of the inflected forms in the conjugation of a verb that indicates the time, such as past, present, or future, as well as the continuance or completion of the action or state.
2. A set of tense forms indicating a particular time: the future tense.

God is a noun, not a verb. It is not a proper noun, denoting a name, therefore it should not be capitalised except at the start of a sentence. Tense has nothing to do with this.

Sigh.

Also how do you know there was a singular creator? Any solid reason to rule out the possibility of a cluster of gods? I mean you haven't got any solid reason to rule in a god but anyway.

Quote:

The word "God" is non-denominational.

Okay, you believe that if you want. You'll believe whatever you want anyway.

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 01:32 PM

Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you?

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you?

I am from the UK. You Yanks do whatever you want with your country and revise your history however you damn well please.

No... actually, throw out the concept of god and replace it with goddess. "In Goddess We Trust"... damn that's sexy.

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 02:02 PM

Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ...

Quote:

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness ...

Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ...

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 02:09 PM

"Nature's God"

"God"

Different gods. In the first context it's appropriate since it distinguishes a certain type of god - not a generic one (i.e. it couldn't be Zeus because Zeus doesn't have the right properties for Nature's God). In the second case it is also specific - the use of "God" was popularised by Christians and was certainly meant to imply the Christian god. It is however not a pronoun and hence cannot be used as such.

I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be:

"In Nature's God We Trust"?

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by cyborg

I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be:

"In Nature's God We Trust"?

No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator."

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator."

Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it.

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 02:29 PM

Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you?

Iacchus · 16th October 2005, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by cyborg

Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it.

Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start?

Originally Posted by cyborg

Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you?

Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it? The idea of a single "God" or, "Creator" seemed to be central and unifying enough to go to war over it don't you think?

TragicMonkey · 16th October 2005, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ...

Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ...

It also capitalizes "Rights", "People", "Course", among others. Capitalization was a hit-or-miss thing back then.

And the word "god" has no tense at all; it is a noun, not a verb.

cyborg · 16th October 2005, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start?

They are not interchangeable. A creator doesn't necessarially have to have the qualities of a god. Things can create by 'dumb' logic. Gods do things due to 'will'.

Quote:

Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it?

It is generic. It is therefore appropriate when one is talking about a non-specific god. The use of "God" is non-specific - you agree. Case closed.

triadboy · 16th October 2005, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

The word "God" is non-denominational.

Except to an Xian. To them "God" is Jesus' daddy.

TragicMonkey · 16th October 2005, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by triadboy

Except to an Xian. To them "God" is Jesus' daddy.

Only because they didn't have DNA testing back then. Let's see if that sort of story holds up the next time a "virgin mother" comes around.

Iacchus · 17th October 2005, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It also capitalizes "Rights", "People", "Course", among others. Capitalization was a hit-or-miss thing back then.

Or just a way to emphasize the "significance" of something.

Quote:

And the word "god" has no tense at all; it is a noun, not a verb.

And, if you wish to emphasize something in the "proper tense," specifically a noun, you capitalize it.

Iacchus · 17th October 2005, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by cyborg

It is generic. It is therefore appropriate when one is talking about a non-specific god. The use of "God" is non-specific - you agree. Case closed.

No, it is not no-specific which, is why is captitalized. It refers to "God," the Creator of the Universe.

Mercutio · 17th October 2005, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Or just a way to emphasize the "significance" of something.

And, if you wish to emphasize something in the "proper tense," specifically a noun, you capitalize it.

Wow. You have been shown specifically that your usage is dead wrong, but you just keep hammering away at it. Feeling "tense", Iacchus?

Mercutio · 17th October 2005, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

No, it is not no-specific which, is why is captitalized. It refers to "God," the Creator of the Universe.

Either you are right, that it refers to this particular belief system and not others, in which case the First Amendment prohibits it, or you were right before when you said it was "pretty inocuous", and it trivializes god to the point of meaninglessness.

14th October 2005, 12:38 PM	#1
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	God and the Little League I was invited to play in a fundraiser golf tournament for a community little league baseball organization. I went to their site to check it out and found this pledge: Quote: Little League Pledge: "I Trust in God. I love my country and will respect it's laws. I will play fair and strive to win. But win or lose, I will always do my best." For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball?

14th October 2005, 01:01 PM	#3
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by triadboy For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball? I'm pretty sure when the Little League prayer says "God," it means "Koufax."
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

14th October 2005, 01:56 PM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,114	Will their god punish them for abusing that apostrophe, and pointless capitalization?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

14th October 2005, 08:13 PM	#5
jimlintott Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 2,894	I don't see the need for any sort of pledge for little leauge but if they must have a pledge, they should get rid of the first TWO sentences.
	__________________ If you are going to throw caution to the wind, make sure you are standing upwind.

14th October 2005, 10:02 PM	#6
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029	Originally Posted by triadboy What does God have to do with Little League baseball? Theres no crying in baseball, I guess...
Yahweh Ayay ashay ayay Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,029

14th October 2005, 12:47 PM	#2
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by triadboy For some reason, this bothers me. What does God have to do with Little League baseball? When's the last time you took a look at any U.S. currency? Perhaps they just "coined" the phrase?

14th October 2005, 11:20 PM	#7
Atlas Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,229	Originally Posted by triadboy What does God have to do with Little League baseball? Back when they let me play deep lonely fielder, God was the only one to talk to during the game. I would say "Please don't let him hit it to me." If I try to remember those days real hard, I can still hear Him laughing. So what does God have to do with little league? I hate them both.
Atlas Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,229	__________________ This, above all: to thine own self be true. (Polonius to Laertes) Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. - (Benford's law of controversy)

15th October 2005, 11:42 AM	#8
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Iacchus When's the last time you took a look at any U.S. currency? You are right - it shouldn't be there either

15th October 2005, 11:45 AM	#9
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Will their god punish them for abusing that apostrophe, and pointless capitalization? Agree. Someone should proofread these things before they throw them on the Web.

15th October 2005, 11:46 AM	#10
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by jimlintott I don't see the need for any sort of pledge for little leauge but if they must have a pledge, they should get rid of the first TWO sentences. They forgot "I will eat my vegetables and clean up my room."

15th October 2005, 11:48 AM	#11
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Yahweh Theres no crying in baseball, I guess... But apparently the adults need to ensure there is a deep cosmic guilt pent up in the little buggers.

15th October 2005, 11:50 AM	#12
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Atlas Back when they let me play deep lonely fielder, God was the only one to talk to during the game. I would say "Please don't let him hit it to me." If I try to remember those days real hard, I can still hear Him laughing. So what does God have to do with little league? I hate them both. So you were that guy in right field! I played third base and prayed the same prayer!

15th October 2005, 12:40 PM	#13
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by triadboy You are right - it shouldn't be there either Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of?
	Last edited by Iacchus; 15th October 2005 at 12:50 PM.

15th October 2005, 01:21 PM	#14
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Originally Posted by Iacchus Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of? Do you know anything at all about the history of how that phrase came to be on our currency? Or are you as ignorant of that as of...gee, pick one...
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

15th October 2005, 02:49 PM	#15
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Iacchus Actually, many (if not most) of the founding fathers were Deists. So, which "God" do you think they set this government up in the name of? I agree the founding fathers were Deists. I think their 'god' was just 'a creator'. They probably didn't identify Him with the Jewish tribal god. The god phrases on the coins and in the Pledge popped in the 50's (I think) to made the distinction between the US and the godless communists. (This was right after the McCarthy Hearings)

15th October 2005, 10:34 PM	#16
DarkMagician Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 1,539	Poor semicolon, no one loves you. You're like the redheaded stepchild of punctuation; You're not quite a colon; you're not quite a comma. People don't use you, thinking it's too tough for you to get into a sentence. I still love you, though.
	__________________ Sometimes going by "Nyke" \| "Pascal's Wager: Believe in Unicorns, or one might kick you in the nads!" \| "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la!" --c4ts \| Intelligent Design & Expelled Exposed \| I'm on dial-up. If you want to reply to me, summarize please.

16th October 2005, 03:20 AM	#17
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by triadboy The god phrases on the coins and in the Pledge popped in the 50's (I think) to made the distinction between the US and the godless communists. (This was right after the McCarthy Hearings) Yes, I was aware of this, except perhaps the part about McCarthy. While, believe it or not, this is one of the (few) things I have learned since I've been posting on this forum. It still leads me to wonder though, how "inocuous" such an inscription would seem to the founders of this country? But then again, who's really interested in learning about the heritage of this country? Does any reference to God become suspect now? These folks were not atheists, and believed in a Creator.

16th October 2005, 04:58 AM	#18
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,099	Holy Mary Mother of God! If the founding fathers of the USA believed in God, well, then. They must have been right!

16th October 2005, 09:56 AM	#19
Mercutio Shakespeare's Sock Puppet Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Live Free Or Die Posts: 16,325	Originally Posted by Iacchus These folks were not atheists, and believed in a Creator. Even among the founders, the conception of god was not monolithic. They certainly felt differently about god than the McCarthyites did, and very differently than you, Iacchus, do. If you think there is disagreement between atheists and theists, that is nothing compared to disagreements between theists of different stripes. Would you mind if our currency said "in Allah we trust", or "in Thoth we trust", or any of a thousand others?
	__________________ "But to see her was to love her Love but her, and love forever."

16th October 2005, 10:09 AM	#20
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,114	"In God We Trust" is too tame and boring. I would prefer a jazzy Bible quote: "There are spirits that are created for vengeance, and in their fury they lay on grievous torments." Ecclesiasticus 39:33 "For the devising of idols was the beginning of spiritual fornication, and the invention of them the corruption of life." Wisdom of Solomon 14:12 "Then I returned, and washed myself, and ate my meat in heaviness" Tobit 2:5 All of which are fraught with interesting color and value. And since they're all apocryphal, maybe they're religious, maybe they're not, so who can object?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

16th October 2005, 12:26 PM	#21
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by Mercutio Even among the founders, the conception of god was not monolithic. They certainly felt differently about god than the McCarthyites did, and very differently than you, Iacchus, do. Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves. Quote: If you think there is disagreement between atheists and theists, that is nothing compared to disagreements between theists of different stripes. Would you mind if our currency said "in Allah we trust", or "in Thoth we trust", or any of a thousand others? Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah." I would have a problem though, if the fundamentalists (of any organization) took over and started to control things. This is why the founding fathers opted to leave religion (since it lends itself so well to despotism) out of the government.

16th October 2005, 12:33 PM	#22
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by Iacchus Which is why they felt the need to establish the freedom of belief, to accomodate this and, in the hopes it will encourage people to think for themselves. This does not detract however, from the fact that they were believers themselves. Except for, you know, the ones that weren't. Quote: Sounds more like a language issue than anything else. If this was a Muslim country, I wouldn't necessarily be offended if "God" was pronounced "Allah." Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"? Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term. Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one. That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter. If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 01:14 PM	#23
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by cyborg Except for, you know, the ones that weren't. Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers. Quote: Would you be offended if "God" was pronounced "Zeus"? No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily accomplish this. Quote: Which faith one is talking about is implied by the term. And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?" What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either. Quote: Does it say god? No, it uses a pronoun form specifically created so that "God" would now always implicity mean the Christian one. Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim. Quote: That's why I would encourage anyone out there who doesn't want to do this not to use this form: "God" is not a name, it should not start with a capital letter. And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense? Quote: If you are talking about Yahweh state its name. If it's Allah then we know we're talking about the muslim god. The word "God" is non-denominational.
	Last edited by Iacchus; 16th October 2005 at 02:54 PM.

16th October 2005, 01:26 PM	#24
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by Iacchus Except that in order to approach an understanding of something -- hence belief -- it usually requires taking a position of "non-belief." So, I'm sure there was plenty of room for atheism in the eyes of the founding fathers. Again you seem not to be talking using English. Quote: No, not at all. So long as it wasn't held up as a means to emphasis something radical or extreme. The words, "In God We Trust," are pretty inocuous themselves, and don't necessarily aqccomplish this. So you'd go around saying, "In Zeus We Trust" even though you don't trust in a god sitting atop Mt Olympus? Quote: And, are you sure it isn't just any reference to "God?" Since it was a Christian who started it and got it popularised: no. Quote: What if we were to use the word "creator" instead? Something tells me this wouldn't go over too well either. Creator would be better. But then I'm not an American so it's pretty tangental to my concerns. Quote: Let the fundamentalists claim victory if they want but, it will probably be the last victory (hopefully) they claim. Who said this was a fundamentalist thing? It's been whole-heartedly embraced by the majority of Christian America - I'm sure most don't even think about the possibility of any other god being referred to. Quote: And why shouldn't we speak of the creator of the universe in its proper tense? Um, tense? Quote: tense2 Audio pronunciation of "tense" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tns) n. 1. Any one of the inflected forms in the conjugation of a verb that indicates the time, such as past, present, or future, as well as the continuance or completion of the action or state. 2. A set of tense forms indicating a particular time: the future tense. God is a noun, not a verb. It is not a proper noun, denoting a name, therefore it should not be capitalised except at the start of a sentence. Tense has nothing to do with this. Sigh. Also how do you know there was a singular creator? Any solid reason to rule out the possibility of a cluster of gods? I mean you haven't got any solid reason to rule in a god but anyway. Quote: The word "God" is non-denominational. Okay, you believe that if you want. You'll believe whatever you want anyway.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 01:32 PM	#25
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you?

16th October 2005, 01:55 PM	#26
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by Iacchus Well, why don't we just thow out the whole notion of God whatsoever, and forget that it had anything to do with the founding fathers of this country? You would really like that wouldn't you? I am from the UK. You Yanks do whatever you want with your country and revise your history however you damn well please. No... actually, throw out the concept of god and replace it with goddess. "In Goddess We Trust"... damn that's sexy.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 02:02 PM	#27
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ... Quote: IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776. The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness ... Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ...

16th October 2005, 02:09 PM	#28
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	"Nature's God" "God" Different gods. In the first context it's appropriate since it distinguishes a certain type of god - not a generic one (i.e. it couldn't be Zeus because Zeus doesn't have the right properties for Nature's God). In the second case it is also specific - the use of "God" was popularised by Christians and was certainly meant to imply the Christian god. It is however not a pronoun and hence cannot be used as such. I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be: "In Nature's God We Trust"?
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 02:12 PM	#29
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by cyborg I mean if your argument was right sure it'd be: "In Nature's God We Trust"? No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator."

16th October 2005, 02:27 PM	#30
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by Iacchus No, I think folks would be more inclined to trust in "their Creator." Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 02:29 PM	#31
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you?
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 02:49 PM	#32
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by cyborg Cute, but no-one is absuing that term today so I don't have to deal with it. Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start? Originally Posted by cyborg Oh and as an aside you didn't explain why the tense of god is wrong. Why is it that "god" isn't right for you? Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it? The idea of a single "God" or, "Creator" seemed to be central and unifying enough to go to war over it don't you think?

16th October 2005, 03:02 PM	#33
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,114	Originally Posted by Iacchus Goodness, look at what we have here! An excerpt from the first two paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence ... Now, is it just this copy that has both the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized? Or, could there be others? Hmm ... It also capitalizes "Rights", "People", "Course", among others. Capitalization was a hit-or-miss thing back then. And the word "god" has no tense at all; it is a noun, not a verb.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

16th October 2005, 03:14 PM	#34
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974	Originally Posted by Iacchus Oh, I find the terms "God" and "Creator" interchangable and refer to both all the time. So, perhaps it's time you start? They are not interchangeable. A creator doesn't necessarially have to have the qualities of a god. Things can create by 'dumb' logic. Gods do things due to 'will'. Quote: Perhaps because there isn't anything central or unifying about it? It is generic. It is therefore appropriate when one is talking about a non-specific god. The use of "God" is non-specific - you agree. Case closed.
cyborg deus ex machina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,974

16th October 2005, 03:38 PM	#35
triadboy Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Iacchus The word "God" is non-denominational. Except to an Xian. To them "God" is Jesus' daddy.